? It's a breakthrough!!!! Wilbur is letting me test!

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by johnt, Feb 3, 2018.

  1. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, try for a +7 in the day cycle. A before bed test tonight would be good info if Wilbur will tolerate it. I think it's wise to stay with 3 tests a day and add in that evening 4th if you can for now. You're working on your technique and you're getting Wilbur used to it. No need to force the issue because his numbers don't warrant that.

    Finish up the day today at 4.5 u and give that same dose AM and PM tomorrow. We can reevaluate then. We want to know if dark green will show up again. The flat pinks so far look like a more moderate bounce interval (compared to the late day reds yesterday) caused by the greens yesterday. Need more data to know.

    I'll bet it feels good to be getting a better grip on all this. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
    lovemycat444 likes this.
  2. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Sounds good. I'll stay focused and keep on track. he'll relax
     
    lovemycat444 and Kris & Teasel like this.
  3. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Stick to 4.5 u for today to see if he'll come down from pinks. You've been honing your testing skills and some of the earlier lower numbers *might* be from less-than-reliable tests. I can't know for sure but more data today will help.

    I suggest you try a +4 today. Trying to find out where his nadir area is with minimal tests. Feb 06/07 are hinting that it might be around +4 but I'm not certain of those numbers.

    How is Wilbur doing overall? Are you getting more relaxed with testing and following a structured routine?
     
  4. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    I just started these less frequent testing so it's hard to tell, however he's still hiding from me at the moment, when he thinks I'll test him.

    As he gets used to less frequency i'm sure he'll come around. I also go in to his sleeping room (my bedroom) and pet him for a couple minutes, more frequently, playing with his ears. I figure it will get him used to me doing it and not testing and hopefully it will make him less timid.

    I'd say 30/70 I get it first try now. but if i miss he starts to struggle.

    Overall I think he's feeling better. he's not constantly sleeping as much and he does seem to feel better. I really need to get his weight down. he can't clean his lower half, and last night I saw him try to scratch his ear but he couldn't get the leg around his belly.

    I started reducing his treats but i thought I should ask before moving forward, since we're trying to get a baseline I shouldn't change his feeding habits right now? or should I?

    I think, if I time this right, with a little luck I can get him off the treats altogether but it will take about a week to do it (guessing)
     
  5. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Question, why are your numbers on Teasel's chart a different format than mine?
     
  6. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I'm in Canada and we use a different unit to measure BG - mmol/L - so the numbers are lower. If you click on the tab at the bottom of my SS that says "2018 US mg/dL" you'll see the numbers in the US units you're used to.

    Broken record again: low carb wet food is the best weight reducing diet there is for cats. Teasel's brother was too heavy when Teasel was diagnosed and also had trouble reaching his back end. I switched him to the same low carb wet I feed Teasel and the weight came off slowly. He's now over 2 lbs lighter and has no issue with grooming.

    Yes, you are working on a baseline. Eliminating all Temptations type treats is important. If he's still eating dry kibble food (not treats) that will keep his BG up along with his weight. I really encourage you to persevere with a diet change but do it slowly. As you work on that - and I hope you do - you'll be getting a lot better at BG monitoring and he'll get better at accepting it. That should allow you to stay on top of any BG lowering effects low carb food will have.

    If Temptations treats have been a significant part of his daily ration eliminating those alone will likely have a positive effect on his BG. Others suggested you get samples of Young Again Zero kibble and Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein kibble. I'd do that but also work on introducing canned low carb food. A lot of people here had to struggle with this but persistence won in the end. So much of this depends on the human saying, "It's gonna happen come hell or high water!" ;)
     
  7. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Yes, this is the goal. but all 3 cats are currently grazers so that is going to be a project in itself. I figured I need to tackle one item at a time rather than bunch them altogether. that way if something was an issue I'd know which process created it.
    I still feed him small bits of the temptations when i need him to eat. he's a grazer so to stick to a specific time I have to offer incentive. Also, when i was giving him those high doses i was terrified of giving him anything else (since I couldn't test).

    This is what I was referring to when I said I'm cutting him back a little at a time. I meant from the Temptations.

    I'll get him. I never give up. Just like with testing, I couldn't just give up, though I took a long break, but he was to the point before, when i was trying and failing, that if i came in the room he would slink out immediately.
    Now that makes sense. Thank you. I'm not stupid, trust me :) I just didn't realize you were in Canada.
    I tested the "Young Again already, but only on Wilbur and he loved it. At the time I was thinking of just trying to replace the temptations with YA. but that was when i wasn't able to test him so i was afraid making that big a change would risk sudden drops.

    I emailed Dr. Elsey's and they already replied. they're sending me samples of the dry but I'm going to reply as ask for maybe the wet too (Just the ocean fish). at $42 for a minimal order on Chewy i can't quite swing that.
     
  8. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    It'll take time - no need to rush them. They have to become habituated to a different feeding regimen. I have three too. Teasel and his brother eat the same thing but their sister eats prescription hypoallergenic food. They've been trained to have three scheduled meals a day (except for Teasel who gets a fourth bedtime snack) behind closed doors in separate rooms. Mind you, they're all good eaters and they learned to accept this routine fairly quickly. They all used to get a little kibble too before Teasel's diagnosis but I eliminated it right away for all of them once I found out he was diabetic.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
  9. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Anywhere near time for the +4 test? I'm curious about where he'll be. Aim for a later one if he's hiding.
     
  10. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    No it's ok, i got it, just hadn't put it in. it's 248
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Great! Nice to see a yellow. The bounce seems to be abating. He should be fine until evening pre shot.
     
  12. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    ok. it was a struggle but I made sure that he didn't eat at all 2 hours before his test. it was 251

    It feels like things might be stabilizing a bit
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  13. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I see that yellow PS number from last night. It's great to have a lower PS but it's near your "no shot" threshold and I would recommend that you follow up with another test at +2 when this happens. I know you're trying to keep testing minimal right now but sometimes an extra one like that is prudent. Stay with the 4.5 u for now. I think he's settling somewhat and you don't want to disturb that. The goal is still to gather baseline data at this dose to know where to go next.
     
  14. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    We don't know but if he's had a run of yellows through the day yesterday and overnight he might be setting up for a drop into significantly lower numbers. For reasons unknown a long streak of flat yellow can portend a drop after a spell of bounce inflated high numbers. It's one of the SS signs we watch for.

    I'll be interested to see his AMPS. If it's yellow you might want to get a +2 as well as a mid cycle test. If you've stopped all the Temptations treats that might have a significant impact on his BG. You can get him some low carb freeze dries meat treats for testing rewards. One brand is Pure Bites.
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  15. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    No problem. I've gotten good enough at the blood draw now that i can pet him and get him all gooey so he notices but doesnt get uptight. then i pet him for a long time to bookend it.

    I'll do a +2 today. then when should I do another?
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  16. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Following along here! I don't have anything to add to Kris' advice, but I agree that removal of Temptations could possibly have a surprisingly large impact on BG. Another freeze-dried treat I often order from Chewy's is this one:

    https://www.chewy.com/cat-man-doo-life-essentials-chicken/dp/45664

    The big bags and the "dog-sized" treats tend to be more economical on these and other brands (and the treats are easy to break apart).

    That will depend on what you get for a +2. I'm also suspecting that he might break his bounce today (although, truth be told, we don't yet have enough data to know his patterns), and if that's the case you'll be testing closely to keep him safe. If he stays high, though, it's just more spot tests to keep filling in the blanks on the spreadsheet and gathering data.

    Glad to hear that the testing has already become (what sounds like an enjoyable!) routine!
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  17. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Welll I wouldn't go so far as to say enjoyable. it's just less stressful. but it's going to end up thee for sure.

    I have a question along these lines. I never used a lancet like the ones that come with the testers. The clicky ones. That noise startled him when i did it next to him a couple times and when I test it's usually really quiet around where we are.

    I've been just taking the lancet itself out and gently poking to get the blood. Course, I also oked too hard at first and went right through, but I'm getting a lot better. is it ok to just use the poker itself? or is that hurting him?

    next, no I didn't take the temptations away completley. I give him some when I need to, but I'd say so far I've cut him back 80% or more. I'm going to take them away but i'm doing it by weaning him. I don't want to stress him.

    I have also gotten in touch with Dr. Elsey's and they're sending me samples of the kibble and wet. I'll see if I can move him that way

    I am thinking those were carb spikes like Kris was mentioning. But he's coming down. i also see he has a better attitude and seems a little more playful, though not much yet.

    Aren't ideal numbers in the blue range? low to mid 300s are still too high right?

    EDIT: i'll be testing him in about 15 minutes. he's been screaming at me for foor :)
     
  18. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    this worries me. i'll do a +2 but i expect it will be higher because that's when I give him the temptations (at injection to ensure he eats). but I'll do whatever we have to.
     
  19. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Yes, it's definitely OK to just freehand the lancet itself, without the device (and lots of us have inadvertently pierced our kitties ears-- it's OK, they heal up fine!). Some people also find they have even better control of where the needle goes if they put the lancet in the device (without the cap) and just hold that. Basically, anything that works for you is fine!

    You definitely want to make sure he's got some yummy treats for rewards, so if Temptations are what you've got now, that's fine. Just be aware that they might have a big impact on BG (in both directions; he might be higher than usual after he gets some treats, and if it's been a while since he's had any for whatever reason, his BG might go lower than usual).

    After I mentioned it the other day, I decided to give it a try myself. All of my cats (Amber plus the non-diabetic civvies) really liked the kibble-- so much so that I think I could probably use it as a treat if I had to. (of course, like all cats, they have a tendency to get bored with a new food as soon as I commit to buying a large amount :rolleyes: so who knows how long this will last?)

    Yes, blues should be where you are aiming for Wilbur right now-- ideally below the renal threshhold, which varies but is usually somewhere in the 200's. For info, non-diabetic cats are actually even lower-- 50-120 is the usual range, but they spend most of their time under 100. But with an insulin like Vetsulin especially, you want to have them running a bit higher for an extra safety margin. Being in blue numbers will put less stress on his pancreas, plus of course it will get him used to lower numbers, which will help reduce the bouncing. But it's all a process.

    That is so good to hear!!!!
     
    Critter Mom likes this.
  20. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Welp. dangit, back to purple. 331

    As for the samples. The kibble is what I'm thinking of using to replace the tempatations
     
  21. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Do i still need a +2?
     
  22. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    I would, or a +3. With vetsulin, usually most of the action is early in the cycle, so that's usually where you want to concentrate your data-gathering efforts. And of course, he could still have some movement in mind for today, even with the somewhat-higher preshot-- this is a cat who dropped from 443 to 86 in a few hours the other day!
     
  23. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    That's what I've seen several times. Honestly the few times I could get a reading on him (before the breakthrough) was usually between +5 to +7 and it was always super low.

    Then one time I got him just before his shot at night and he was in the mid 80s to the mid 100s

    it was all over the place, then again that's when i was giving him 10u.
     
  24. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    @Nan & Amber @Kris & Teasel

    Dang! i forgot to post the number. His +3 was 213

    let me know when I should retest. he's about +4 now
     
  25. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I've been out until now. I'm glad Nan was here to help and I totally agree with all her advice. :) Why not try for a +5 for the heck of it - another data point for your SS.

    It's great that you've reduced the Temptations a lot. Keep working at it and hopefully the Dr. Elsey's will meet with Wilbur's approval. Best case is that he'll eat the wet as his main meals and enjoy the kibble as treats around testing and shot times.

    I know you're still a little nervous about his numbers tanking at some point. Getting onto this structured routine of testing, logging data and dosing based on that data will reduce the likelihood of being surprised like that. I'm not saying it'll never happen because cats can be very unpredictable but data (and knowledge) is power.
     
    Nan & Amber likes this.
  26. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Nice!

    [edit: was going to suggest a +5, but Kris beat me to it!] If he's moving up by +5, you'll be able to give him a break until the next preshot. This looks to me like he's getting a good response to the insulin today, but not nose-diving (anti-jinx!), so you'll be gathering info about when he might typically be nadiring (I can't tell yet from the spreadsheet).
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.
  27. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Wilbur's dad is working on getting the testing thing smoothed out and less stressful so the goal is key tests only for now with the odd extra thrown in when numbers warrant - like a+5 today. The Temptations weaning is also part of the revamp. :)
     
    Critter Mom and Nan & Amber like this.
  28. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    I did a +3 already. a +5 would be now. should I do that or hold till later?

    EDIT:

    nevermind, i did a +5 it was 191
     
    Kris & Teasel and Nan & Amber like this.
  29. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    This brings up a question that I have.

    Sometimes my dose time slips. it depends on what he's/i am doing. If his dose is 9:00am but it's 9:15 before I can get it, how do i log that to stay in line?
     
  30. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Nice curve numbers so far! :) You can likely leave him alone until evening pre shot. No need to push the envelope testing-wise in these early retraining days. You don't want to upset him if he's starting to be more tolerant of the poking.

    Re dose timing: with an insulin like Vetsulin you have about an hour's flexibility with dose timing if something comes up that delays you or you need to dose earlier. I suggest you make a note of those time changes on the right side of your SS if/when they happen. It's best to stay as close to 12/12 as you can manage but I wouldn't worry at all about 15 minutes here or there.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
    Nan & Amber likes this.
  31. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    ok that works. I normally have no issues with time, but there are always unknowns.

    I was pretty happy with the 191. I will see how he is. i was thinking it'd be nice to get a +9 so it's not too soon to get a PMPS but i'll see how he does.

    He's starting to relax a bit more but i missed a few times on this last one and he wasn't happy :) he gives me one or two free shots, then yells at me if I can't get it. He's bossy
     
  32. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Gotta let you know who's in charge! ;)
     
    johnt and Kris & Teasel like this.
  33. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    That pink at +9 could be a bit of rebound from the blue.
     
  34. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    we're 3 hours from his next shot. should i just stay the course?
     
  35. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Yes, keep this dose for tonight. You're barely 3 days past those greens and still gathering good baseline data. Let's see what tomorrow brings on 4.5 u and if there's little change you can try eyeballing 4.75 u on Monday morning. You're not hurting him by holding the 4.5 u dose a bit longer. If you had weeks of data on your SS it would be easier to see patterns. Monday will be only a week.
     
  36. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    Stay with 4.5 u for today. It's likely that he can go to 4.75 u tomorrow AM because you'll have enough baseline data to proceed with dose tweaking.
     
  37. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    OK sounds good. he was 271 AMPS so i think it's leveling.
     
    Nan & Amber likes this.
  38. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    The hardest part of the weaning is he grazes. well I should say he used to. i don't give him the temptations except when i know he's getting a shot. When those new treats come in I'll hopefullly move him there permanently and get all the cats on it.

    He doesn't really graze because there's no food out that he likes. Believe it or not he's stopped eating the Hills. So he only eats when i feed him. Which is less than normal by far. but i do still keep him eating. one big change at a time

    I will say this though, having a 26 pound cat with diabetes i get a work out cleaning litter boxes. Just to keep things livable for them I'm doing 3 cleanings on 3 boxes per day. Whew! Wilbur pees like a gallon per day I swear.

    Also, listen i know people are going to be up in arms about Mercury, but To get him off the tempations i've been feeding him tuna in water. I know there are nutritional issues, but he gets other wet food and temptations (very little though).

    Honestly the Mercury thing would take a long time to manifest itself, and he's already 10. he's not going to be alive long enough to fight that. to me the 911 is keeping him alive, and controlling the diabetes. As long as I feel he's getting enough nutrients I don't think this is that bad a routine. When this new food gets here hopefully I can just move him there and stop the tuna
     
  39. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I was slow on the uptake so couldn't figure out what you meant at first. You mean mercury in tuna! :) As a snack while you're getting a new regimen going it shouldn't be a problem. If he eats other wet food for cats he should be getting the proper vitamins and minerals.

    Have you tried giving little pieces of plain chicken breast that you roast yourself (without seasonings)? That could be a good treat to use in your routine if you don't want to buy something like Pure Bites freeze dried treats.

    Also - I know you've had to revamp a lot of your established routines with Wilbur, teach him to accept testing, different food, different treats, etc. It's stressful for you and for him. I guarantee it'll be worth it in the end! He'll lose weight, his BG will be much better regulated, you won't likely have to worry about those scary seizures and most of all you'll have the comfort of knowing you're doing the absolute best you can for him. It's obvious that you're a doting cat dad. :)
     
  40. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Boy have i! I even bought a rotisserie chicken from Sams Club (members only grocery store) that was plain. I bought fresh chicken breasts and boiled them. No dice. Sniff it, walk away.

    He cries when i make food (no clue why), so sometimes I put a little sliver of roast down... nothing. I've tried every kind of food I can think of.

    When they were about 1 wilbur didn't care about Tuna and Tinker was the pig with it. now it's flipped.

    I can't even use different brands of Tuna. Bumble Bee is the only tuna he will eat. I got another brand once and he'd get all excited, sniff it and walk away.

    So far the only alternative that he really seemed to like was the Young Again stuff. I'm going to try that other kind you recommended when the samples get here.
     
  41. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    @Kris & Teasel Forgot to ask, should I give him a mid dose poke at some point?

    When i first started testing i had to get him when he was in bed, but lately i can get him most times, so it's much easier.

    it's going to be interesting moving him to 4.75. the markers are tiny and it's hard enough to hit the .5 no clue how i'm going to go up another 1/4 but I'll figure it out
     
  42. Nan & Amber

    Nan & Amber Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2016
    Cats! :rolleyes::cat:

    It is frustrating when they are so picky! I hope the new varieties pass inspection, he really needs to eat. I agree with you and Kris, now is not the time to worry about long-term issues like mercury poisoning.
     
  43. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    I remember a while back here (it was several years ago) i kept seeing people gasp and thoroughly discourage people. BUt i did some looking and i agree, for a short period, as long as he's getting plenty of other food that shoud be enough Vitamin E.

    And yes I do dote over him :). Long story how I got him, i did foster homing for pregnant cats and then raised the babies and adopted them out. he and his sister were bottle fed from 2 days old.

    here he is as he was growing
    Ps72ZOB.jpg
     
    Critter Mom and Nan & Amber like this.
  44. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    So sweet! :bighug:
     
  45. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I'm glad the testing is getting easier. How about a +6 today? Try practicing 4.75 u in a syringe using coloured water, tea, etc. to make it as close as you can estimate. Keep that as a reference syringe for filling others with insulin at that dose. Reuse with coloured water for other doses.

    It's too bad he's so picky. Freeze dried treats come in salmon and bonito flakes (tuna) - maybe those would tempt him more. Have a look online or at your nearest pet store.
     
  46. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    I haven't tried freeze dried yet. but I'm going to. heck worst case he just won't eat it. When he didn't eat the rotisserie chicken we ate it for dinner :)

    Also you have a cat that's diagnosed only about a year ago. Are you a vet?
     
  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    My guy was diagnosed two years ago. I've been through the wringer with him - DKA, three different insulins, really hard to regulate, etc.

    No, not a vet, just someone who's learned a lot from being a member here. ;)
     
  48. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Dangit, i messed up. I got a +4. 155 but i'll get one at +6 too
     
  49. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    All data is good data. Try for +6 if he’ll cooperate. I think some patterns are starting to appear.
     
  50. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    Not able to get anything yet. Had people come over and he went into hiding. I'll get a sample when he reappears
     
  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    I see the red PS last night - probably a bounce so don't worry. You have to look past those. As you get more data on your SS his bounce patterns should become clearer.

    I think you can try 4.75 u today. You're still gathering data and learning his responses so I wouldn't go to 5 u in one jump. Do your best to eyeball or make up a reference syringe with coloured water as I suggested in my post #145. I'm basing that on the mid cycle tests of the last few days - ignoring those earlier greens because you were working on testing technique. Because this is a new dose, I'd try for a +2 or +3 test to see if there's any unexpected action.

    I also suggest you start a new thread now because this one is very long. :)
     
  52. johnt

    johnt Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2016
    I moved up to 4.75 this morning. Just gavbe him a shot. he leveled off. I still think yesterdays was a sneaky food thief. I know for a fact i held him 2 hours this morning. it's harder at night.

    I'll get a +2 or +3.

    and I'll start a new thread :)

    EDIT: wow, i've poked him 31 times in 6 days. he's going to start leaking.
     
    Kris & Teasel likes this.

Share This Page