Low Carb but gives high sugar. Why?

Hi guys,

Hope you can help me here. My 9 year old cat (girl) has diabetes. Vet prescribed her Hills WD wet food, which is high in slow-release carbohydrates and fibre. So I have been feeding her that but her blood sugar on that food is much higher than on regular Felix wet food. Having read so much on the internet about benefits of low-carb diet I decided to switch my cat to that. So now for 2 days she's been eating MAC's wet food (2% carbs) and her sugar is really high. What do I mean by really high? On Hills it was high, 13-16 but now on MAC's it was 19 before food and 6 hours after food almost 20 What is going on? I'm just upset because I was expecting this low-carb food to lower her sugar but it just made things worse so I don't know what to do.. Feed her Felix again? Hills?

This is the link for more info on MAC's food: http://www.happykittycompany.co.uk/collections/cat-food/products/macs-beef-with-chicken-hearts-400g

Appreciate any advice you can offer!

 

Is she on insulin? What kind/dose? The insulin dosage is a huge part of this diabetic puzzle. I have never heard of Macs, but I know values figured by the companies had been inaccurate. . Here is our food chart; we try to stay under 8% carbs.


http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf

 

Yes, she is on 2 units of insulin.

 

Also, I live in the UK and found out about MAC's from the list compiled for those who live in the UK and other European countries. MAC's is German, I think.

 

What kind of insulin? We usually can tell how the insulin is working by getting numbers before the tests and then 5-7 hours later (to see how low the insulin takes her midcycle) there could be a chance she is dropping low midcycle and bouncing back up. Do you have some numbers you can share?

 

Yes, she is on Caninsulin which, if I'm right is the only one available in the UK. So she gets injection twice a day, in the morning and in the evening before food. I usually but not everyday test my cat before food/injection and then after 6-7 hours, which is peak of insulin activity.

I have done a glucose curve twice, this is when she was eating Hills and Felix

1st ---- 11.4 - 10 - 8 - 7 - 6 - 10 - 17
2nd ---- 9 - 11 - 7 - 5 - 8.5 - 15 - 16.5

Now she just started eating low-carb food so I haven't done the curve yet but yesterday, at midday (peak of insulin activity) she was 13.8 and today before food 19.4, 6 hours later 19.6 (

Maybe she ate something outside?? I hope it's that.. If not, then I don;t know what to do. I thought low-carb is supposed to lower sugar! My vet tells me NO, low-carb is baaad, that I should Only feed her Hill's, high fibre. Whyy? I don;t know who to believe.

 

Sorry, I wrote she gets insulin before food. NO, I meant After food.

 

On our older food chart, Hills Wd is 26% carbs. MAC is definitely on our European list but it doesn't say how many carbs. The ingredients look pretty good.

I am confused too. You got good numbers on the earlier curve. Were you on 2 units then also?

I guess I'd try another low carb choice and see if it improves things. And if she is an outdoor cat, I'd tour the neighborhood to see if someone is sneaking her some evil dry.

Here is another perspective from a vet on wet low carb food:

http://Www.catinfo.org

 

You test before food,though, right? (food raises levels, we think anytime after 20-30 minutes.

 

Get off the Hills w/d since it's VERY high in carbs and switch to a food that is <10% carb.............there are lots of choices, but you have to get educated on which foods and mostly we here in LL use Friskies (about 7% average) or Fancy Feast (about 4% av.)............they seem to work well and do for Davidson..........I kept some w/d on hand in case he goes into Hypo and then I can use it for a spike food.

 

Hello and welcome from another UK'er!

I see you've had some great advice already but thought I'd chime in also...

(Sorry, this is a short post as I have hungry guests arriving through the door expecting to be fed - yikes!)

I feed Mac's too (in a rotation of foods) and find it a good low carb food for my diabetic boy.
However, DO be aware that there are 2 versions of Macs. Are you feeding the 'grain free' version?

We've found that Caninsulin typically peaks at between 4 and 5 hours after the shot is given (I'm sure there must be exceptions to this though.)
And no, it's not the only insulin in the UK; it if doesn't work for your girl there are others available.

Well done, you, for testing your cats blood glucose. It is probably the single most useful thing you can do for her (apart from giving insulin of course!). The test numbers you got are pretty good! And I'm just wondering if she's actually dropping lower than these numbers at the peak of the cycle, and then swinging up high again...?

Again, sorry for short message...

Eliz

 

Thank you for your replies guys! She was started on 2 units of Caninsulin. One thing I would like to ask. Your vets, are they against low-carb diet too? My vet thinks it's normal if my cat goes into hypoglycemic shock, I should Just "make sure she doesn't fall off the stairs and give her some honey". That sounded just so wrong so as soon as I got home started doing research on the internet and this is how I found out about the role carbohydrates play in diabetes management.

Elizabeth, what other wet food do you feed your boy?

 

Crikey! That is more than a tad scary for many reasons. But is your vet a good vet in other respects...?

Re vets' attitudes to food for diabetics, it seems to vary a lot.
The vet who diagnosed my Bertie's diabetes initially suggested that I have him PTS. But when I said I didn't want to do that she said I'd have to feed a special prescription food every day and nothing else. I said I didn't want to to that either (having read about high carb versus low carb foods online while awaiting diagnosis...). She shrugged. I found a new vet.
The new vet was quite open about my choice to feed Bertie low carb wet food. And he now also fully supports my decision to hometest Bertie's blood glucose levels (but it took a while for him to come around to that idea... ;-) )

Our combined experience on this forum shows that low carb wet food works best for diabetic cats. Quite a few cats go into remission (become diet-controlled diabetics) after a short time on insulin and a switch to a low carb wet diet.

Re what I feed Bertie,
I started out feeding the typical 'Felix' and 'Whiskas' type foods in jelly, but the availability of good cat food in the UK has come on 'in leaps and bounds' in recent years. And there is some super duper food made in Europe, especially in Germany.
I currently feed my lot a rotation of Mac's grain-free and Granatapet (from the Happy Kitty company), Grau grain-free and some of the Catz Fine Foods from Zooplus, Lily's kitchen foils from wherever I can occasionally get a good deal online, and Lily's Kitchen cans from the Lily's Kitchen company directly. I also feed some raw food in addition to this.
My cats are old and are very very fussy eaters, and my cat food bill gets extremely high at times. If I could persuade them to eat something cheaper I'd include Bozita (from Zooplus and some independent pet stores) as a staple in the rotation. (Many diabetic UK cats are very happy on Bozita.) And, some UK diabetics are happy eating Butcher's classic cat food available from some supermarkets too.
Have you seen Juliet's (aka Dr Schrodinger's) list of UK cat foods?

Eliz

 

I'm not familiar with your foods in UK but you've got lots of answers there...one thing I wanted to share 'just in case..'.

I suddenly had issues with KT shooting up knowing I'd fed him 'low carb' food. After getting really confused, I FINALLY figured out that it was every time I fed him beef! For him, anything with beef is MC/HC. There's one specific 'gravy' food available here in the US that's supposed to be HIGH carb but for KT, it doesn't send him soaring. There's a chance something like this might be happening with your baby...just takes time to figure it out! ...but KT's wierd... :lol:

 

OMG, Squeaky and KT, I think you' could be right! It is beef that's causing this, that's exactly what she ate that day. Last night I fed her MAC's chicken and sugar went down from 20 to 5. Today the highest was 15 so it's getting better. I am so glad I've posted my question here

Elizabeth, some of the brands you mentioned just got delivered today. I ordered Bozita, Lily's Kitchen and Catz Finefood. Hope she likes them! Just to clarify, when you say in rotation, do you mean weekly or daily? Is it ok to feed her different brands as long as they are low-carb? Or should I stick to one brand for some time before feeding something else for change?

Thanks again all! Looks like it's starting to work for my girl

 

My fuss-pot cats will rarely eat the same thing twice in a row, so these days I just pack all the different foods randomly into the 'cat cupboard' and feed them whatever tin comes out first! :lol: I know there are cats out there who will happily munch on the same food for meal after meal without boredom, but mine are no longer like that (Grrrrrr!)

That said, I have noticed that some foods suit Bert's blood glucose levels better than others at times (even though the carb content may suggest otherwise), so if he's going through a phase of having higher than typical (typical 'for him') blood glucose levels I will steer him toward the foods that suit him best at that time.

Maybe your girl is sensitive to beef as Squeaky and KT suggested..? Quite a few cats are senstive to it....

I hope your girl likes the new foods!
What's her name, by the way?
And what's your name?

Eliz

 

Welcome from another UKer,
Elizabeth I have also been feeding Bailey Lilys Kitchen in rotation with Granatapet and Natures Menu.
I am stopping feeding Lilys Kitchen as it contains Carrageenan,if you google Carrageenan in cat food you will be alarmed.
It induces gastrointestinal inflammation and is a possible carcinogen.it also has no nutritional value,and can possible spike glucose levels.

 

Oh sorry Forgot to introduce myself. Name's Iryna. I'm from Ukraine and my cat's name is also ukrainian, Barsa. That means panther To english ear Barsa probably just sounds weird, I know ) Elizabeth, you made me laugh, 'feed them whatever comes out first' lol lucky cats! they're in for surprise every day then!

Lily's Kitchen.......Damn, I've just bought 6 tins of Fish dinner to try..

 

BaileyUK, I noticed in your signature that your cat also has pancreatitis. Is there a special diet for that? Mine just Might have that too, not confirmed. Is high protein and low carb diet suitable for cats with pancreatitis? And a question about insulin. Your darling is on Lantus? Can she eat whenever she wants or same as with Caninsulin, twice a day? I have been reading a lot about diabetes on Russian forums, people there praise Lantus and Levemir.

 

Do you want to set up a spreadsheet? It will allow you to track trends and results and if you share it with us we could help see whats going on - heres how http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

 

Caninsulin is the only insulin in the UK that is licensed for use on cats,It is not the best suited insulin for cats,some cats respond well to it. Bailey didn't and after 6 months my vet got permission to change him over to Lantus.
Regarding pancreititis,I find with Bailey small meals often throughout the day works best,it isn't so stressful on the pancreas.I feed B the foods that are best for his diabetes,they are fine,but try to keep to low fat meat such as Chicken,fat aggravates the pancreas.There is a useful link on pancreititis which I believe is on the Health site,I'm sure reading this some kind person will send you the link.If your baby has a positive diagnosis,get back to me as I have been giving Aloe Vera Juice to B and it has really helped,BUT it HAS to be a certain type as the outer rind is toxic to cats,it has to be the inner gel ONLY with NO additives.
I really would ask around to see if you can find a more caring vet,and then get tested to see if it is pancretitis
Good luck. Diane

 

This may be helpful:
A Primer On Pancreatitis

 

Oh, hells bells... Thanks for that info, Diane. Will have to read up on carageenan.... (I think it's in lots of things...including some ice cream... Darn! :-| )

I've been including Lily's Kitchen fish dinner and kitten food in my cats' food rotation because they are relatively low phosphorous and I'd thought that would be good for their old-timer kidneys... This food malarky is such a mine-field....

 

Hi Iryna and Barsa!

Here's a little bit of info about UK insulins for cats.
As Diane (BaileyUK) said Caninsulin is currently the only veterinary insulin suitable for cats; and the law in the UK is that vets have to prescribe a veterinary medicine before being able to prescribe anything else (ie, a 'human' medicine).
However, IF it transpires that the veterinary medicine isn't suitable for the animal then, according to the 'cascade system', the vet can prescribe a 'human medicine'.
What that means for us in the UK with diabetic cats is that if Caninsulin doesn't work well, we can ask our vets to prescribe another insulin. There are 3 alternatives here; Hypurin Bovine PZI, Lantus, and Levemir. The one your vet is most likely to prescribe is Hypurin Bovine PZI. That's because many vets are already familiar with 'PZI' insulins (there was a veterinary PZI available until a few years ago). Some vets favour Lantus though, and a few prefer Levemir.

I use Hypurin Bovine PZI for Bert and it has worked really well for us. But other UK folks here are using Lantus or Levemir.

Caninsulin is quite different to Hypurin PZI, Lantus and Levemir.
Caninsulin is an 'in and out' insulin: It's injected, it lowers blood glucose (typically pretty fast in cats), then it leaves the system. It can seem to be out of the system in as little as 8 hours.
The other 3 insulins are long lasting types that are known to have some kind of residual or 'carry-over' effect. How that actually works varies between the different insulins, but essentially what it means is that any given insulin shot can a) be influenced by the previous shot/s, and b) can influence the following insulin shots.

Many of us here free-feed our cats (have food available to graze on throughout the day); but try not to feed the cat in the hour or so prior to testing and giving the insulin shot. (That's so that blood test result isn't skewed by the cat having just eaten food.)

And in fact, with Caninsulin, we've found that it can be very helpful to feed at the time of the insulin shot, and then also give a snack a couple of hours later. That's because Caninsulin can drop the blood glucose very fast indeed in some cats, and the snack can help to slow the drop down. If the blood glucose drops too fast (or too low) that can trigger an effect called 'rebound'. (Simply put; the body senses that the blood glucose is dropping too fast/low, it gets scared, and puts even more glucose out into the system as a protective measure.)

If the data you collect shows that Caninsulin isn't working well for Barsa then it could be worth you asking your vet for a different insulin. Some vets do this willingly, others take more persuasion.

I strongly endorse what others have suggested here about you setting up a spreadsheet showing Barsa's blood glucose levels. There are some smart technical folks here who can help you do that (I'm not one of them! :lol: ) If you DO set up a spreadsheet then folks here will be able to access that at any time and will be able to give you much more specific advice.

Oh, regarding Juliet's UK cat food list, the link is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... mWmc#gid=1

Eliz

 

Hello Vintry
I too have a dozen foils of Lilys Kitchen left,and like Elizabeth said I was feeding it to keep the phosphorus levels down as Bailey is an old boy of 14 and I want to take the strain off his kidneys,it really is a minefield where cat food is concerned!
More donations of food to the local animal rescue,as I couldn't give him any more Lilys Kitchen.
I don't know if Eliabeth has tried Natures Menu Pouches? they seem to fit the bill as far as no grain,sugar or additives go,and Bailey likes them.Also I am ordering from The Happy Kitten Co,the Granatapet which is also grain free,if you think Barsa may have pancreatitis don't order the Lamb,the chicken and duck is the one I order,and also the symphony chicken.
Have you read up on the Carrageenan yet Elizabeth? Why do they put ingredients into the food that can cause problems!!
Have you come across any food you can recommend Elizabeth,that is low in phosphorus,and at the same time suitable for diabetics? Diane

 

Hi Diane,

No, have not tried Nature's Menu but will look into that one...

Yes, did do a search for carageenan.... Blimey, it's all very confusing....and hard to find references for reliable information. But I did find this snippet on Dr Lisa Pierson's website, catinfo.org:
"One ingredient that has caught my attention lately is carrageenan. If one does a PubMed search of carrageenan, they will find many references to "carrageenan-induced inflammation" which is very disturbing in light of how common IBD (inflammatory bowel disease) is in cats. Please see this link to an interesting study showing carrageenan to be an inflammatory mediator in human intestinal cells.
Unfortunately, ~80% of the commercial canned products [in the USA?] contain carrageenan. If your cat has chronic diarrhea or vomiting, I suggest trying to find a food without this ingredient listed."
( http://www.catinfo.org/?link=cannedfoods )

I had a look on the Lily's Kitchen website. The organic tray foods contain carageenan but the tins do not.
I've just emailed them expressing concerns over the use of carageenan, and asking if it's possible to produce their wonderful food without it! Maybe if enough of us contact them they'll consider sourcing an alternative ingredient...? ;-)

As to other lower phosphorous foods that are good for diabetics too (and delicious!), well, that's going to take a bit of searching. Finding the phosphorous level of a food is much harder than finding the carb level (the info has to come directly from the manufacturer, I think...). The CRF site has a great list of low phos foods, but it doesn't list many of the foods we commonly feed to our diabetics... (sigh... :YMSIGH: )

Eliz

 

I spoke to customer service at Lilys Kitchen and expressed my concerns,she was very polite,but said there were different type of Carrageenan,she was fudging me off with a load of nonsense,you can try,but I really didn't get the impression they were that interests,I also forwarded them article stating it could possible cause medical problems.
Do try Natures Menu, it is up to now the best I have come across,
I spend hours loitering in the pet shops looking at cat food labels!do let me know if you find anything good. D

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: !!!

 

Wow, so much information, thank you guys! I will reply soon. Just wasn't able to concentrate on anything in the past few days since Russia declared a war on Ukraine

 

I can hardly believe what's happened, Iryna. I'm watching the news, and shaking my head in disbelief....
This must be SO worrying for you.... :sad:

 

Iryna,
so sorry...but Russia already lost what it wanted most: Ukraine. I'm sure Ukrainians will never forgive nor forget what Russia did.
Thinking of all of you.
With best wishes,
Sophie

 

Thank you for support kind people!

It looks like my Barsa is doing great. I haven't done any glucose testing in days BUT after she finished her last can of MACs I've started feeding her Bozita (haddock) AND she seems happy, purring, doesn't pee much, being her usual self so I'm assuming her sugar levels are ok. Will be doing the curve this weekend to see if I'm right. Fingers crossed all is good! In the meantime I'm setting up a spreadsheet and ordering some more of the food you've recommended

 

Hi Iryna,

I'm glad Barsa is feeling better. That's great news!

Regarding glucose testing though, it's really important to test before giving each insulin shot. That's the only way to know whether it's safe to give Barsa insulin, especially since it sounds like her blood glucose levels may be dropping with the change in her diet. For those new to dealing with feline diabetes we recommend that no insulin is given if the blood glucose level is below 11 (200). And if her blood glucose level is higher than 11 but lower than you'd normally expect it may be prudent to give a slightly lower dose than usual.

It would be great if you could set up a spreadsheet with Barsa's numbers on. Well done for getting started on that. :smile:

Eliz

 

You really can't tell by looking. Reduction in drinking, urinating, and hunger, are good, but elevated glucose levels still may be present.

 

Yes, you can't tell...she behaves just fine but her glucose levels are not what I thought they would be, not at all I have done the spreadsheet, please check it out in my signature. I'm not sure what I need to be doing here.. Sugar is high on low-carb food. I'm trying another brand, low-carb (2%) again but if during the week the situation doesn't improve then I guess I should go back to Hills WD, better readings on that one. It's all soo confusing

 

Oh, one more thing that I haven't mentioned. I know many cats with diabetes are overweight but mine is underweight She went from 5kg to 4kg, that's why I took her to vet suspecting something might be wrong with her. If her diabetes is under control, will she put on weight?

 

Maybe.
Feed frequently rather than huge meals; she's more likely to gain that way.
And low carb kitten food has a bit extra protein to help rebuild any muscle loss.

 

I can't feed her during the day if she's on Caninsulin, only twice per day. It's sad because she's been eating freely whenever she wanted all her life but now only in the morning and in the evening.

 

Of course you can feed your cat more than twice a day, no matter what insulin you are giving. I don't know why vets tell their clients a diabetic cat can only eat twice a day, but that is just plain wrong.

As BJM said, smaller meals throughout the day put less stress on the pancreas.

Another reason for feeding mini-meals or free feeding, is your cat can go get a bite to eat if she feels her BG (blood glucose) levels dropping low.

Another reason for feeding mini-meals is it can help to even out the BG levels. A small meal around nadir or the lowest BG reading in the cycle, can raise the BG number up and keep it from dropping too low.

It can help to smooth out those bounces and the release of the panic mode counter regulatory hormones.

ETA: Just looked at your SS. It's really important with any insulin to get a test before you give the insulin. This is so that you know your cats BG is not too low to give the shot. Also, it helps to put the other BG readings into perspective, like those ones you have been getting mid-cycle.

It looks to me like the 2U takes your cat Barsa low into the greens. That's good, because those blue and green levels give the pancreas time to heal. Last night after the 119, it's very likely that Barsa went even lower during the next couple of hours. I'd suggest keeping a close eye on her and doing another test if you get a low reading so early in the cycle.

 

Edited to add: I think I cross-posted with Deb and duplicated some info, sorry...

Hi Iryna,

Why do you think you can only feed Barsa twice a day? Is this something your vet has told you?
The twice a day feeding may work fine for dogs (and Caninsulin was created for dogs), but our experience here of Caninsulin in cats has indicated that it can be very beneficial to feed more than twice a day. And in particular it can be helpful to make sure the cat has a snack a couple of hours after the shot.

Cats metabolise Caninsulin almost twice as fast as dogs do, so the whole process is speeded up. That means the cat's blood glucose level can drop quite dramatically between (typically) 1.5 to 4.5 hours after the shot. Therefore, a snack given about 2 hours after the shot can help to slow that drop down. (If the blood glucose drops too fast (or too low) that can trigger a rebound or 'bounce' whereby the blood glucose swings up really high again.)

Many of us here who free-fed our cats prior to them becoming diabetic continue to free-feed our cats now. (Though it can helpful not to let the cat eat for a couple of hours prior to each insulin shot being given, just so the food doesn't skew the pre-shot blood glucose test).

Well done for getting Barsa's spreadsheet set up. That's excellent work!
I know you're concerned that Barsa's blood glucose numbers don't seem to be dropping on the lower carb food. But I've had a look at her SS and wonder if there are some 'pieces of the puzzle' missing here? I think there's a possibility that Barsa may be dropping low and then 'bouncing' up high again. If, for example, we look at her numbers for 27th Feb, we see that she spent the day in high 'flat' numbers and then suddenly dropped again during the evening insulin cycle - quite dramatically. These numbers might be indicative of 'bouncing'.
Sometimes, when a cat's blood glucose bounces up high the body also releases substances ('counter-regulatory hormones') into the bloodstream that keep the blood glucose high for a while. This can mean that the cat appears to be resistant to insulin (so numbers stay high). Then, when the effect of those subtances wears off the cat responds to insulin again and the blood glucose drops...
I'm not saying that this IS what's happening with Barsa, but I do think it's one possibility.

I think we really need to see more data in order to understand what's going on with Barsa, and in particular it's important to know what her blood glucose level is before each insulin shot.

I know it's all very confusing, Iryna, but don't lose hope. You're doing a great job, and we are all here to help.

Eliz

 

Yes, that's what my vet said, feed her twice a day, nothing in between, only high in fibre Hills WD and after 1 month bring her in for fructosamine test. So it's time for that test now but he (vet) doesn't know that she has been on a low-carb diet, her BG got worse than on Hills so I'm back to Hills now. A question about feeding. If I feed her at peak of insulin activity, 6th or 7th hour (around 12pm), won't her bg go too high? After 6-7th hour, the effect of Caninsulin starts wearing off and usually bg starts rising. What I noticed, it steeply increases in the last few hours, 10th, 12th. So feeding in the middle of the day, isn't it going to make things worse? I know that for humans this is ok, eating whenever but human insulin is different. Wish I could try Lantus on my Barsa.

BJM, thank you for a link. My vet thinks she might have pancreatitis. I don't know why he didn't suggest to do the Spec fPL test. Instead he wanted to do the expensive scan..

 

Test, feed, shoot all within 15 minutes.
Feeding mini-meals before the nadir slows the intake to meet the insulin as it gets used.
So you might spread the food over shot time, then +3 and +5.

You can experiment, you know - spread the meals out 1 day and do serial tests on that day, then compare that with serial tests on a 2 meals day. You may discover that data are much more convincing than some forum on the internet.

 

I absolutely agree with BJM.

And regarding the steep blood glucose increases in the last few hours of the cycle, that's because Caninsulin often only lasts about 8 hours in cats. So, once the insulin is out of Barsa's system the blood glucose will scoot up.

If it turns out that Caninsulin isn't working for Barsa then there will be other insulins that you can try. But you will need to collect sufficient data to show that the Caninsulin isn't effective first.

 

I don't know if your realize this, but that Hill's W/d food is for weight loss. I thought that Barsa needed to gain some weight back? If so, you probably should consider cutting way back on the W/d food and giving more of the low carb food.

You might want to read over the AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats. There is some good information in this vet journal article from 2010 about the food you should be feeding to a diabetic pet. A food as low carb as your pet will eat, canned because of the extra water content, is the top recommendation.

I don't know how much data you need to collect before you can take it to the vet and have the "Cascade" process take effect to get your kitty on a better insulin. We can already see that Barsa isn't getting good control, and has some very steep drops (450+ to 90) in a single cycle. Perhaps Elizabeth could give you some idea of what other data you might get to show your vet how the Caninsulin simply does not last long enough for your Barsa.

I think perhaps a few more tests around the +9 to +10 or +11 time frame would be helpful..

 

Guys, I WANT to feed her low-carb food and I was so sure it will work for her like a miracle but it didn't As soon as she was started on it her BG went up, considerably. And she lost another 200g, down to 3.8kg from 4kg That's why I feel like I'm at the crossroads. Thought I'd feed her low-carb = lower BG and high protein = gain weight But the opposite happened Now with Hills I worry she'll lose weight too, although when I first tried it with her, she gained a little and the BG was ok-ish. What makes everything much worse is that I feel like I can't even get a decent vet advice because most of the vets here in London seem to have some kind of affiliation with brands..Pet Plan Insurance Advisor..or this - Hills Nutrition Advisor. I doubt this Hills Nutrition Advisor will recommend something other than Hills Prescription food. Sadly makes you think these vets care more about money coming in than animals' health.

I plan to go to my current vet (probably will be my last visit), ask for a different insulin or more like beg for it. I will show him Barsa's spreadsheet. He will probably refuse and want to raise Caninsulin dose. He also wanted to do Fructosamine test. Do I need that test considering that I test her BG at home frequently? I have also read about Serum Biochemistry test online. Do I need to do that one too?

As for feeding guidelines...I am very tempted to feed her 3 times per day like you suggested. However, if I understand it right, weight loss is to do with persistently high glucose levels right? If I feed her small but more frequent meals, she will only gain weight if her sugar is regulated. Correct?

Your feedback is much appreciated, I read and reread all your replies! Thank you.

 

The Bouncing Effect is indeed a very good explanation of what could be the reason for high values on low-carb food. For some reason I couldn't understand it before..but I do now Weird, I know. I just need to make a right decision and asap: Hills or low-carb. The most important thing for Barsa right now is that she gains weight. It just scares me how much she lost.

 

Until Barsa gets better regulated, she can't properly use the food she is eating. Unregulated diabetic cats can need up to 50% more food than a regulated cat. If she'll eat, then feed her more. If she won't eat, you need to tempt her or we can make some suggestions that might get her to eat more.

I think that the most important action item for Barsa right now, is to feed her more food. As long as that more food is not more than 4-5 hours after the insulin shot, it should not make her BG levels go up too rapidly.

Remember that a urine void can be a couple of ounces, 2-4 ounces easily. Perhaps the change in her weight from 4 to 3.8 kilos was partially how full her bladder was.

The weight loss can be scary. I had that with my Wink. He lost 1.5 pounds very quickly, a matter of weeks, with the switch to low carb food. He was eating 9-11 ounces of food a day. This for a 11.5 pound cat. It has taken time for him to regain the weight and is now eating about 6 ounces of food a day.

 

Deb&Wink, your cat lost weight After you switched to low-carb?

 

I switched all the cats to wet low carb and several older, overweight cats lost weight without even trying.

Its like eating a whole apple vs a dried one. Dry food is very condensed and easy to eat a lot before the cat feels full. Wet food is diluted with water, so the cat feels full sooner, with fewer calories.

 

Yes, Wink lost weight. But he was also being switched from dry food to wet food. I think he felt more satisfied on the wet food and didn't eat as much. Also, at first he didn't really like the wet food much. He was a dry food addict. It was tricky to get him to eat enough of the wet food because he was not used to it and it took a lot of coaxing to get him to eat.

Sometimes, I'd hold the dish for him and he would eat a bit more.
Sometimes, I'd give him a choice of 2 or 3 flavors of canned food.
Sometimes, I'd crush some freeze dried treats and sprinkle those on top of the food.
Sometimes, I'd heat the wet food up a bit, to make it smell more and be more enticing for him.

 

But my Barsa is all bones you are saying she will lose weight on low-carb? But she will die if she loses more She's so weak now. She badly needs to gain weight. 4kg was scary. Now I'll be happy if she's back to these 4kg. I think I'm going crazy with worry here.. Diabetes, very low weight plus possible pancreatitis.

This is what I'm going to do now. 2 units Caninsulin twice per day, low-carb food 3 times per day - morning, 4h after shot and evening, about 300g in total. Yes or no to that? And to sum it up, low-carb if I understood it all well is still better for gaining weight and lowering BG than high-fiber Hills WD. Correct?

 

test
feed about 2/3 of her food
shoot
about 2-3 hours later, feed the other 1/3.

Repeat at 12 hour increments.

Increase the food quantity before dividing into thirds.
If you can, find a low carb kitten food - higher protein and fat for growth helps put on weight.

Re-feeding for weight gain after starvation from any cause is done with frequent, modest meals, so as not to overload the digestive tract's ability to process and absorb nutrients and cause vomiting or diarrhea.

 

Regarding the weight gain, some of us have found it helpful to increase the fat content of the cat's diet (by adding in some chopped chicken skin, an egg yolk, or a little duck fat or coconut oil.) (But this might not be suitable if a cat has a definite dx of pancreatitis.)

There are some low carb kitten foods you could try too (I often feed kitten food to my old cats anyway!): Grau kitten (from Zooplus), Lily's Kitchen kitten (various places online), and Nature's Menu kitten (various places online) are ones that spring to mind. The Grau kitten food contains some carrot but I've never found that this affects Bertie's blood glucose adversely.

I also give any cats of mine that are unwell Liquivite to drink. It's a complete liquid cat food, seems very palatable, and also contains a probiotic to aid digestion. It's available from a number of places online. You can read about it here: http://www.medicanimal.com/product/~product_id=562

You're doing just fine, Iryna. :smile:

Eliz

 

OK, I am buying this Liquivite. Sounds good.

BaileyUK or anybody else who knows about that aloe vera juice, what is it called? Is there anything on this website similar? http://www.medicanimal.com/search?keywords=aloe&refine=y&Animals=Cats

 

BJM gave you a good feeding plan. I concur with what she said.

At this point, I would not limit the food intake for Barsa to 300 grams (roughly 10 ounces) of food a day. I think that amount of food is the absolute minimum she needs to eat each and every day, and is likely to need more food with more calories to help her gain weight.

She may even need 350 or 400 or more grams to help her gain back some weight.

That means, you need to feed more frequently.

Could you add a 4th meal, just before you go to bed, or leave some food out overnight for her to snack on?

Yes, the low carb food is better for lowering the BG levels. The W/d is meant to be fed to cats that are obese and need to lose weight. The high fiber content makes the cat feel fuller and in combination with the decreased calorie content and portion control will help a cat to lose weight. Since Barsa needs to gain weight, this is absolutely the wrong food to be feeding her.

Depending on which wet food you feed, there should be more calories in it than the Hill's W/d which contains 280 calories per cup.

The Grau Kitten Menu grain free Beef Duck & Poultry that Elizabeth recommended has 114 calories per 100 grams. So 300 grams would be 342 calories. Non kitten Grau gain free foods contain a few calories less, around 103-105 per 100 grams, so that would be 309-315 calories for 300 grams of food.

 

I wanted to give you a link to a body condition score chart that may help you to assess Barsa's weight.

Here are 2 different ones.

http://www.swaynevets.co.uk/downloads/catBodyConditionScoring.pdf

http://vet.osu.edu/vmc/body-condition-scoring-chart

 

Many cats do find Liquivite tasty. It's like a thick creamy chicken soup. And a dish of it can be warmed in the microwave for a couple of seconds too which can increase the appeal for some cats.

There is a lot of it in a can, but it can be frozen in ice cube trays and thawed as necessary. It may look a little curdled after freezing and thawing, but that can be fixed with a quick stir (and the cats don't seem to mind the curdled look anyway!).

Eliz

 

Hi Vintry,
The aloe vera juice I give Bailey is PUKKA ORGANIC ALOE VERA JUICE
I did a lot of research to make sure it was safe,so this is what I found out,it MUST be made from only the inner leaf gel (the outer rind is toxic for cats) it must be free from synthetic preservatives and MUST NOT contain potassium sorbate or sodium benzoate.I buy it at a local health shop,if you cannot find it locally google and there are on line places to do mail order.
I give Bailey 1 teaspoon twice daily,it has worked for Bailes,I had him at the vet this morning and he agreed his stomach feels less swollen,he has been on it now for over three months.
Hope this is of use,let me know if it helps. Diane

 

Forgot to mention,if you decide to try Barsa on aloa vera,I started Bailey on 1 teaspoon daily for the first week to make sure he had no adverse reaction to it,then I increased the dose.also says on bottle keep in fridge and use within 2 weeks,as long as it is kept in fridge I have found it is OK for 4 weeks.

 

Thank you Diane!

From body condition scoring chart my baby is probably 1 and she is fluffy so you can imagine how thin she looks, even with so much fur I'd say she's 1.

I took Barsa to a new vet. To my surprise he supports a low-carb diet Barsa had a very high temperature, 40.4. He gave her something anti-inflammatory and prescribed antibiotics. Also did a blood test to find out if she has pancreatitis, it looks like she does. She is feeling a little bit better today but still bad. Her appetite is also worse today, couldn't make her eat her usual daily portion today. I pray she eats tomorrow but if she's inflamed then yeah, it can't be easy. I will keep you updated. Thank you for supporting me. Your advice is invaluable, don't know where else I could get so much information. I will try not to post so much here as other people on this forum need help too of course, sorry. I just didn't know whom else to ask about all this.

 

Oh, Iryna, I'm sorry to hear that Barsa may have pancreatitis.

Iryna, please do post as often as you want to or need to. There is almost always someone around to help, or even just to chat to. You are a part of this FDMB family now and we are all here for each other. :smile:

Eliz

 

You may find this Primer on Pancreatitis helpful. One important note: pancreatitis is painful, so some sort of pain med can be helpful in getting the cat to eat, etc.

You can add about 20-25% plain meat, poultry, or fish to the canned food, then portion out regular amounts. This will increase the protein, decrease the fat and slightly decrease the carbohydrate. Again, go with frequent smaller meals. If necessary, use an oral syringe and do assisted feeding.

ETA; use cooked if adding to canned food; raw if adding to raw.

 

It seems because of antibiotics the temperature goes down but after the food it goes up again and she doesn't feel good, ears and nose all hot, she just spends the day trying to sleep. And she eats less because of the inflammation. I can't make her eat most of the canned low-carb food, even different brands. The only one she will eat (more or less) is Bozita chunks in jelly and only because it reminds her of Felix pouches, they are also in jelly. Could you please have a look at them and let me know what you think. Good or bad? I have the UK spreadsheet of suitable diabetic foods but still..

Felix fish selection in jelly - this is the one she's been eating all her life and if she doesn't eat anything else then I just have to give her this but I really don't want to. Can't find a link for it. From the pack: moisture 82%, protein 8.5%, fat 8.5%, crude ash 2.5%, crude fibres 0.5%. With tuna & cod: meat and animal derivatives, fish and fish derivatives, minerals, VARIOUS SUGARS..

Bozita chinks in jelly, mackerel - http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/bozita/bozita/300455

The new vet recommended Hills MD, he says it's low in carbohydrates - http://www.hillspet.co.uk/en-gb/pro...ription-diet-md-minced-with-liver-canned.html

 

Hi Iryna,

The Hill's MD is not what we at FDMB would call 'low carb'. The third ingredient on the list is maize starch. According to the %'s of ingredients listed (which doesn't seem to include a % for 'ash') my calculation puts it at 17.9% calories from carbohydrates. For a diabetic cat we recommend feeding foods with less than 10% calories from carbs.

The Bozita tetrapacks (Zooplus only give one list of %'s for all the flavours) come out at 5.8% calories from carbs.

The Felix %'s you gave add up to more than 100% so I'm guessing there's an error in there. Have you got the fat % too high, maybe..? I'll see if I can find some figures online. (The Felix is probably fine, as long as it doesn't contain 'vegetable protein extract'. 'Various sugars' could be something as simple as a bit of beet pulp used, apparently, as a stabiliser. I occasionally feed Bertie Felix foil trays (which also contain 'various sugars' as a treat, and it doesn't affect his BG's adversely at all... )

Edited to add:
Yep, found the Felix %'s online and the fat is 4.5% not 8.5%, so the carb content comes out at 9.3%

The most important thing, Iryna, is that your cat eats...

Eliz

Edited to add: The Hills MD also contains soy protein, which some cats have problems with.

 

OK, thank you Elizabeth

P.S. Infuriating to read 'Low Carbohydrate' on the can of Hills MD when it's actually NOT (shaking my head)

 

You have to put the numbers in perspective.

Well, there are various levels of "low-carb" as you have discovered. Dr. Lisa Pierson's Food chart has a 14% carb content for the canned Hill's M/d is certainly lower than the 25% carb content of the canned Hill's W/d, another of the prescription diets that vets often advise are good for diabetic cats - NOT! Or the 37% carb content of the dry Hill's W/d. ohmygod_smile

Of course, if you've had a cat on one of those vet recommended prescription diet foods, and then find this board, follow the recommendation and switch to true low carb foods, <10% carbs, you often find that your cat's BG levels plummet and may even end up with a diet controlled kitty. Like I did with my Wink.

Here's hoping you get similar success with your kitty Barsa.

 

How about raw chicken breast?? There was this suggestion here to add a little bit of raw chicken meat in canned food. It sounds very good, high protein, no fat. Whenever I take out any raw meat from the fridge to be cooked, my cats circle me and won't leave the kitchen until I feed it to them (I actually have two cats, girls and I give it to them, but very tiny piece, just a strip or two. When I was little, I stole a cat. I was out playing with other kids of my age and saw this beautiful cat, all white, looked like turkish angora breed, she was having a stroll under the window. The window was open and a small ladder was placed on it leading to the ground. I took her home, and like a treasure hid her from my parents. But of course they soon found out. I don't know why they didn't force me to return it, I wish they did. Me being a kid I did not think about what her owners would be going through or that she even had owners, no, I was too enchanted with this beautiful cat to be thinking of anything else. So she became our cat. And she lived a long life but died from poisoning. In hindsight someone probably poisoned her, we had bad neighbors, they hated cats so it could have been them. But at that time we just thought it must be raw meat because we fed her that a lot. She loved it. I remember I cried so much because she was dying, my parents told me they had to give her away for good to some vet they knew because he promised to cure her if they do that. That made me feel better and that's why they lied. I found out about it later, when I got older. Always thought about this story as karma. She died because I stole her. And well, now I have two cats but because of this story I am afraid to feed them raw meat. I am probably wrong, but subconsciously I just feel safer not giving them raw meat. But the question of objectivity: how prudent is it to include raw meat in cat's diet? And with Barsa, especially if she has pancreatitis or some kind of digestive tract inflammation (I will find out tomorrow, hopefully), what's better, raw meat or canned food? Barsa will cheat on her beloved Felix with chicken breast, yes.

 

If Barsa gobbles up all her food pretty quickly, adding a bit of raw chicken to the canned food would be fine. I'd only be concerned if you needed to leave it out for a long period of time to get her to eat it. There's always the possibility of salmonella contamination with raw poultry, so just remember your safe handling practices.

Let us know how Barsa likes it.

 

I am now a big fan of raw meat for cats, and include it regularly as a part of my cats' diets. It has been especially helpful for those of my cats who've had sensitive tummies.
If I had the freezer space I would feed them raw food entirely.

Yes, one has to be careful with raw meat. It's important to buy it from a good reliable source and handle/store it carefully. But it is what cats have evolved to eat.
And regarding food poisoning, cats eating canned foods are not safe from that: Mel's current post here is evidence of this...
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=115580&p=1216428#p1215895

I understand that ordinary raw meat can comprise up to 20% of the total diet (ie, one meal out of 5) as long as the other foods provide all the necessary vitamins/minerals/calcium etc (which most good quality commercial foods should.)

But meat itself is not a complete food. It's rather like feeding a cat 'fillet of mouse' rather than 'the whole mouse'. A whole mouse is a good balance of flesh meat, organ meat, and bones. So, if raw meat becomes a major part of the diet it needs to replicate the 'whole animal.'
Fortunately that's not difficult. It's now possible to buy complete (usually frozen) raw cat food. Or you can make your own at home by following a reliable recipe. Or, in Europe we can buy a supplement called 'Felini complete' that can be added to plain raw meat (without bones) to make a balanced food.
There are lots of options! :smile:

Eliz

 

OK, some very good tips here. Raw meat, heat up the meal, liquid food, all this works for my cat. My favourite and most effective trick of adding a few cubes of dry food to the wet one doesn't work anymore. She's getting smart or what? Barsa likes Liquivite! http://liquivite.co.uk/about-liquivite It's also low-carb yes? Which online calculator do you use to find out? I found one but it gave me 0%..wonder if that's correct. Also, 5% fat, is that high? What is considered low-fat in percentage terms? I actually need to find something low-fat for my other cat. God, one is malnourished and the other is getting overweight. Never had any problems with my cats but I guess now they are just getting old, they're 9 years and 7 months.

 

In cats:
3.5 calories per gram for protein
3.5 calories per gram for carbohydrate
8.5 calories per gram for fat

So in 100 grams weight, if 5% were from fat, there would be 42.5 (5*8.5) calories from fat.
Then, 42.5/total calories in 100 grams = % calories from fat, which is the number we use.

 

This is the neatest online carb calculator that I know:
https://secure.balanceit.com/tools/_gac ... /index.php

You just enter the % figures for protein, fat, ash, fibre and moisture from the food label, click 'calculate', and the percentage of calories from carbs will appear in the turquoise box on the lower right.

This is the simplest way I know to get a quick estimate for the carb content of any given food.
(Note: It is always an 'estimate' though because the percentages of ingredients listed on the lable may vary a bit from what is actually in the can. In Europe most of our foods show the percentages as a 'typical analysis'. The only way to find out exactly what is in the food at any given time is to contact the manufacturer.)

I'm glad Barsa likes the Liquivite. :smile:

 

Iryna, how overweight is your other cat? A little bit overweight? A lot overweight?

And have you recently changed the cats' diets from higher carb to lower carb? Weight issues in cats are more often due to too much carb in the diet rather than too much fat. Cats' bodies process fats differently to our bodies.
If you've recently switched the cats to lower carb food then your fatter cat may naturally lose the weight over time.
But if you were already feeding lower carb food then you may need to change the cat's diet (reduce the amount of food, or the amount of fat in the food (one way to do that is to add some lean meat to the food to 'dilute' the fat content)).
Encouraging the cat to excercise/play can also help.

Weight loss in cats needs to be done with great care. They must lose weight slowly in order for the weight loss to be safe.

Can I suggest that you start a new thread about your non-diabetic overweight cat (incidentally, we call non-diabetics 'civvies' (civilians!) here). I'm sure there must be some folks here who can help you.

Eliz