Max

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Mcessna, Aug 6, 2019.

  1. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2019
    Hello, I am so lost on all this ..... I feel like I am failing my Max.... Is it wrong of me to disagree with how the vet wants to treat him..... I just purchased a home tester because every time I would take him to the vets his numbers were 500+ and the vet just wants to keep upping his dose, but I think he does awful with these higher doses.... I have only been testing two days now at home, and morning numbers have been 209 and 236 and then afternoon numbers were 70 and then 236...... I have switched him over to FF classic, but he acts like he is starving when it comes time to feeding him.... I have a full home, with lots of love and we have switched everyone's feeding schedules to keep him out of the food.... We have 3 other cats and 3 dogs and he just wants to eat constantly, so they are all monitored feedings now.....

    He is so much better now though than he was a month ago, he was peeing on the couch and drinking like crazy and none of that now..... Should or could I have tried just a diet change first? The vet had me giving him 5 units 2x's a day and honestly that was too much for him.... I went back to 1unit 2 x's a day and then none when I have the lower readings.....

    I will appreciate anything you can tell me or how to even help him more... I even thought trying to find him a home that could help him better, because I feel like I am failing him.....And, I want him to live and be happy... my daughter would be devastated though and so would I .... but I feel like I am killing him slowly with not knowing what to do.....
     
  2. Keskat&Rocket

    Keskat&Rocket Member

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    Feb 4, 2019
    Hello and welcome! You are absolutely not wrong in disagreeing with your vet. I'm still relatively new here, and Rocket's situation is very different because he has an underlying condition (so don't use our spreadsheet as any kind of reference please!) - but there are many members here who can help you, and tons of data to back them up. Most vets don't get much training about feline diabetes, so you're right to doubt their advice.

    That's fantastic that you've picked up a meter so that you can test at home - cats' blood sugar levels can skyrocket at the vet's office due to stress. I'll leave the dosing advice to the more experienced here. You might want to post this in the "Main Forum/Feline Health" too; you'll get more eyeballs over there. Mention that you posted in the ProZinc forum first. You'll also want to set up your cat's info in your profile signature, with a spreadsheet, etc. now that you've started home testing. You can look at other members' to get an idea. Age, date of diagnosis, diet etc. - here's a link that explains how to do the spreadsheet part:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/

    Again welcome and best of luck!!!
     
    (GA) Gypsy's Parent likes this.
  3. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    I second Karen's response. You are not wrong, the vet is wrong. Most vets just aren't educated in feline diabetes and the response is to just increase the dose, which can be detrimental.

    Get the signature set up:
    Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
    click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
    click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
    type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

    And then the spreadsheet. If you need help learning to test we have videos and lots of tips and suggestions that worked for each of us as we learned.

    Taking that dose down to 1 Unit 2x a day was a good decision, but you aren't going to know how it's working until you start testing and recording on the spreadsheet.

    You can read the Beginner's Guide to Prozinc HERE. It will answer a lot of your questions and hopefully start to ease your mind, you need to relax a little bit so your anxiety when you start testing doesn't stress Max out. They are soooo good at reading us.

    Help is right here, you have a whole community of people that have your back and the best interests of Max in mind. You definitely are not failing Max, your coming here and asking for information and help is evidence of that, in spades!
     
  4. AmyB

    AmyB Member

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    Jul 25, 2019
    I'm pretty much in the same boat, so I understand. Salem was in the 500's when he was diagnosed and the vet has been upping his dosage every week but I think it's up to too much so I reduced him. I'm still trying to figure out the right dose, but testing him has helped a lot and he's acting better so I'm just taking it one week at a time. It's hard not being able to really trust the vet but I'm just trying to do what's best for him. Everyone on here has been really helpful and great though and it helps.
     
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  5. (GA) Gypsy's Parent

    (GA) Gypsy's Parent Member

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    Jul 24, 2019
    You have come to the right place! It's a bit overwhelming trying to learn everything quickly. The Prozinc FAQ has a lot of good content. My vet gave me supplies, told me 2U 2x/day and that was it! This forum is active and helpful and I'm reading other people's posts to help my education. Fortunately, my cat went from really high to easily manageable just by getting her off dry food. Now it's time to fine tune, understand her BG cycles and strive for consistency.

    I think the people who deal with the disease are better equipped to help than a vet who does diagnosis and sends you home!
     
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  6. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    Thank you everyone.... I have only had 1 high number this week and that was this morning, but that little booger smashed the cookie jar and I have no idea how many he ate....and, it was 413 this morning.... All other testings before any meal was 160 and below ( so if it has been below that I have not given him any insulin) - I am not sure I am doing the right thing though..... The cat is just crazy for food......
     
  7. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    Oh my gosh, cookies??? Sounds like another Tucker. He's a kitty that lives in Australia and gets into all kinds of contraband food.

    It would be very helpful to see the numbers on the spreadsheet if you could get that set up. Then you would get much more informed advice and suggestions. Your signature indicates you have been dosing according to testing numbers, but we don't know whether those numbers are pre-shot or when during the 12 hour cycle, or what the dose was. Most of these insulins work better on a consistent dose basis, at least until a small adjustment needs to be made up or down, and it may be very hard to find the right dose or get Max regulated without more info.
     
  8. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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  9. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    You have the spreadsheet set up and we can review the BG testing numbers you have recorded. Could you please enter the number of units of Prozinc you injected in the "U" columns just to the right of the AMPS and the PMPS columns? If you didn't give a shot, then just put NS in the U cell for that morning and/or evening. Then we can see what dose you gave Max with each shot and see what happened right on the spreadsheet grid.

    It's so great that you are getting the testing done and set the spreadsheet up so we can help you help Max. This is hardly failing him, you are not killing him, you are saving his life and helping him to feel better. Look at the spreadsheet, see the blue and green numbers? Those are good numbers!. Many kitties starting out have much much higher BG than those numbers. This is doable, and you can do it, heck you are doing it!

    It's going to help further if you can get some tests during the day so we can see how low the BG goes. Try for 6 hours past the injection in the day, and if you can get a few more at different hours, that would be wonderful. A before bed test is also a good indicator of what is happening on the nighttime cycle. If Max is already getting the blue and green numbers at the preshot tests, the dose may need to be reduced further. Please plug in the Units of Prozinc given and test during the cycle, very important!! Please don't give a shot without this information and further advice. We don't want his BG going TOO low.

    So, no more meltdowns, and you can stick consideration of re-homing on the shelf because you can't take care of Max, because you are already doing it! :cat:

    Tell us what you feed Max and the other kitties please, we need to evaluate the diet and see where to go from here. Ok?
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2019
  10. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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  11. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    I switched max to friskier pate only and all the other cats in the household too .. he’s not the happiest about that but we have also had to hide all people food and the dogs food ... and I try my hardest but sometimes he sneaks a piece of food if the dogs drop it .., I sit and monitor their feeding but there are times I miss a piece ... I work full time during the day but I’ll try to get numbers over the weekend

    He was 303 this evening and I gave him 1 unit but then 4 hours later he’s just not acting himself and I just tested and he’s 549 and that was a struggle to get that reading - the only way I can test him is wrapped in a towel ...
     
  12. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    Please keep the spreadsheet updated as much as possible. Any members who read your posts are going to look at the spreadsheet to see the "whole picture". Hopefully, with treats and conditioning, Max will get easier to handle and it won't be so difficult for you.

    I am going to tag in the experienced Prozinc users so that they can make some recommendations with dosing. I don't know if you work during the day, but if you can get some tests done between the shots, we can see what's happening. You should not give an insulin dose based on the pre-shot numbers.

    @Djamila
    @Rachel
    @MrWorfMen's Mom

    You can edit your signature to reflect more information, take a look at mine. You can refer back to the spreadsheet instructions, or holler for help to rename the spreadsheet link to something shorter, then you can put the following info in the signature:
    kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters)

    I made my signature when there was more space available to input information, there is less space allowed now and we need additional information plus the spreadsheet link. We need to know the food, dosage, meter type for sure. You can edit your profile to include a geographic location, like the state you are in. Click on Idjit's picture, you will see I live in Eastern Washington State.
     
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  13. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    First of all I want to echo what others have said.....you absolutely are NOT letting Max down. You have quite obviously made far better decisions for Max than your vet and Max is darn lucky to have you as his advocate. It's quite evident that Max is in the best home he could hope for. You not only have paid attention to your instincts but you've been proactive about doing so and I'm sure you have saved his life by not blindly following the vet's instructions.

    I also want to congratulate you for having the patience to play lunchroom monitor with all your four footers. I have 3 kitties and my extra sweet girl loves to pilfer her brother's food so I know how exasperating the monitoring can get!

    As has been mentioned, you definitely need to start getting some mid cycle tests to see how low the dose of insulin is taking Max. Given that higher pre-shot tonight with no shot having been given this morning or last night, I have to wonder if your little monkey has managed to pilfer something he shouldn't have again. BG was great last night and again this AM so it seems a bit odd it would be so high tonight. Please make sure to get a test of his BG around +3 or +4 post shot tonight. I know that might be difficult but for safety sake, I think it's advisable since you gave him 1u of insulin tonight. I'd also feed him again when you test.

    Not sure what to tell you as far as dosing is concerned right now. Many of the readings you have are totally normal BG and some of the highs seem to be explainable by bouncing which I think is due to too much insulin.

    So I suggest you test him but skip the insulin tomorrow morning regardless of what his BG is, feed as usual and we'll revisit the dose question in the evening when we see what his evening pre-shot BG is.
     
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  14. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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  15. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    Thank you, I agree... I think when his numbers are high that he is getting food somewhere..... Let me give you a little insight to my home.... Single mom, 3 blessings 10, 8 and 6 ..... 3 dogs one of which has Addysons disease, but we have managed that fine and she will be 12 in December and then 3 kitties and then Max...... I know, alot..... So there is bound to be crumbs, but the kids are getting better about tying down their snacks..... I do work all daylight.... I will try and get some mid level readings this weekend.... Here is what I have noticed though, it seems he feels awful after the insulin anymore......hes just not himself....

    Thank you all for the kind words...... I have purchased mattress pad covers and all the chairs are now covered too, which makes clean up a lot easier
     
  16. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    Your description of Max feeling awful is concerning and is likely a result of the ups and downs being caused by the inconsistent dosing of insulin.
    Insulin is not medicine...it is a hormone so it affects a lot more than just BG numbers. Too much insulin can look just like too little so you cannot dose based solely on pre-shot numbers and to do so is dangerous.

    I see you gave insulin again this morning and that too has me very concerned. I really think that 303 this morning is a result of the 1u dose last night taking Max's BG down to what may be unsafe levels. He is bouncing which is a defensive response to protect the cat from the BG going too low. The problem is that the body only has so much stored sugar to use for what the cat perceives as a threat and those stores can get depleted and lead to hypoglycemia.

    I strongly suggest you load your cat up on high carb food this morning before going to work. If you don't have high carb food, then mix some honey or karo into some food and leave food out for Max to eat even if that means containing him in a separate space for the day.

    PLEASE DO NOT give insulin again until we can see what his levels are like without it. It appears likely your cat's dose is too high IF he needs insulin at all.
    Can you test Max's BG again before you leave for work?
     
  17. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019



    I did not get a chance, but I will test and then retest tonight and then I will be home tomorrow so I will be able to test during the day.....
     
  18. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    When you test tonight PLEASE DO NOT GIVE any insulin no matter what the reading is and post the reading here.
     
  19. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    Ok... I wont...

    So, just because his numbers are high then doesn't mean he needs insulin then? Omg, can you imagine if I would have kept giving him the 5 units the vet recommended? This has me scared, but thank you so much for helping me through this....
     
  20. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    The problem with having the vet check BG levels is that our kitties are notorious for having elevated BG in the vet's office. Their BG can be inflated by 100 points and sometimes up to 200 points from the stress. The vet sees the higher numbers and wrongly assumes the cat needs more insulin. Unfortunately, there is also the problem that a lot, if not most vets, don't really understand how insulin works. They get precious little training in vet school and it covers all species. They often don't have a lot of diabetic cats in their practice so they don't stay up to date with current practices. They also try to make things as simple as possible for the human caregiver to avoid having people give up on their pets because of the diabetes. Vets have a very tough job...far tougher than a human family doctor IMHO and what you have experienced is all too common. Thankfully, a lot of folks like yourself, seek out this forum because of the lack of info and instruction they get from their vet.

    We'll help you get Max sorted and on the path to a healthier future.
     
  21. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    I kept telling my vet that, when i would take him for his blood sugar testing.... I told him he was 98% better than he was but his numbers were always so high at the vets.... Yes, I agree - our furbabies can not tell us whats wrong or where it hurts.... Thank you so much for all the help so far.... I will post as soon as I get his numbers this evening.
     
  22. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok, just got home and tested

    441

    Max does not like the testing I have to wrap him in a towels and swaddle him
     
  23. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    How many hours is that test past his shot?
     
  24. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    10 hours
     
  25. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ok I really think that is one major bounce from too much insulin so I still think you need to withhold the insulin tonight to see if his BG comes back down. Test him again at your normal pre-shot time and don't feed him anything between now and that test. we want a fasting BG at pre-shot time.
     
  26. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok I tested him this morning he was 317 ...
     
  27. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I presume that is a fasting BG test (no food for at least 2 hours prior to that test)? He's come down some but not as much as I had hoped/expected. Then again, bounces can take a few cycles to totally clear. Are you sure he didn't get into any more contraband?

    As long as that morning reading was a fasting BG and you are sure there was no contraband involved, I think you could try a dose of 0.5u and check BG mid cycle when possible to see how low that dose takes him.
     
  28. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Yes, that was fasting... and, no I’m not 100 sure but I’m pretty sure - he did urinate on the chair last night too
     
  29. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sorry about the piddle. Has Max been checked for a Urinary tract infection? They are very common in diabetics and can cause the inappropriate elimination.

    Is Max walking/jumping as normal? Does he appear to be walking on his hocks rather than in his toes in the hind quarters? I ask because there is also a condition called diabetic neuropathy which causes leg weakness and can cause litter box avoidance due to difficulties getting in and out or possibly some loss of bladder control.

    I'd try the 0.5u then and see how he does.
     
  30. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok - yes his urine is good

    He’s walking fine actually trying tonscale the wall to get to the other cats food as we speak

    I watch him use the litter box all the time but if I didn’t know better I would swear he’s doing it to get attention..: it’s only at night or when we aren’t in the house
     
  31. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Well that seems to rule out neuropathy. Is there some rivalry between him and the other cats that could be driving the behaviour? Any stray cats around that might be setting him off?
     
  32. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    He’s so laid back - but that could be ... I know my two boys that were raised together now are fighting- they stay in their own parts of the house ...
     
  33. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    He may be laid back but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't being stressed out by the other cats in some way. Did the inappropriate behaviour start by chance when the other two boys starting fighting?
     
  34. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ohh I never thought about that - because I had blamed the other boys because of their fighting until I set up a camera and caught max
     
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  35. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Are you home during the day? If so, it would be helpful to get some mid cycle tests to see what the insulin is doing for Max. Dosing is based on how low a dose takes BG..... not on pre-shot test results. The pre-shot tests tell you it's safe to give insulin and provide a gauge for how much a dose is dropping BG.
    ProZinc is usually at peak action sometime between +4 and +7 hours post shot in each cycle. Each cat is different so we suggest random testing largely in that timeframe ie. test at +4 one day, +5 the next and so on. Nadir can and does move around a bit but tests in that window of time will provide a good idea of what is happening. Also we recommend getting a BG test every night before bed. It won't necessarily be in the 4-7 post shot timeframe but tests early in the cycle can provide clues as to how the cycle is going to play out.

    If you are not home during the day, grab tests whenever you can. All data is good data and helps to determine how things are going and how to proceed.

    I sincerely hope you can sort out Max's behavioural issues. I have an old guy who is having accidents and I know only too well, how difficult and frustrating it is to be cleaning up messes. :blackeye:
     
  36. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    I work during the day, but I am home today so I will get one this early afternoon ... and then I’ll get some more over the weekend ...

    Thank you so much for all your help
     
  37. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    I must be doing something wrong .. I just took his blood and it’s 347 this is 4 hours after the .5 - I will test again right around 5/6pm
     
  38. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    That's odd. What food are you feeding him?

    ETA Never mind just saw the FF in initial post.

    Can you feed him a little snack of the low carb FF (a couple of tsps. is all) and then test his BG again about 3 hours later please. Want to see if his pancreas is working to lower his BG by then.
     
  39. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Friskies chicken pate
     
  40. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Ok the Friskies pate is fine. Use that to give him a snack.
     
  41. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Could I be stressing him out by wrapping him in the towel to check his sugar?? He really fights me
     
  42. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Is one can in the morning and then one at night too much ? Or not enough ?
     
  43. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Well yes that could be stressing him out to a degree but I'd hate to think it would go up that much with the insulin on board. His BG should have dropped from the insulin. That said, if he's really stressed BG can go up 100 or more points so anything is possible.

    Are you giving him a treat of some sort when testing? Most cats can be conditioned to accept testing with enough repetitive bribery.

    As for the amount of food, that depends on the weight and activity level of the cat. FF 3oz. cans are roughly about 90 to 100 calories each. Not sure about the Friskies. That's a 5.5 oz can if memory serves. Two cans of Friskies sounds about right for a slightly above average size cat assuming the calories in the Friskies food are about the same as FF by volume. Diabetics often need more food than normal because they don't process the food as efficiently so it's Ok to give them a little more. It's actually best to offer multiple meals per day....two main meals and a snack or 2 in each 12 hour cycle. It helps to keep BG more stabilized.
     
  44. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok - I will give him a snack now ... he is acting great today though... climbing walls laying on my lap and when I rattled a bag came flying and leaped like I haven’t seen in awhile
     
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  45. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I love that activity/demeanour report and that is very important stuff to pay attention to...it says a lot and is just as important as his BG numbers but his BG numbers are really puzzling. :confused:
     
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  46. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    I know ... the only thing is maybe he is still getting a snack somewhere ... between the animals and kids I am sure there is a crumb that I miss
     
  47. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    You'll have to play Sherlock Holmes and see if you can solve the mystery. 9099bb11f08e26563bca69f79d754456.jpg
     
  48. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Tonight’s number 151
     
  49. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Is that 12 hours after this morning's shot? If I look at the timestamps on the threads here, I would think the 151 reading was roughly 9.5 hours post shot. Is that correct?

    This might be your normal shot time but it's early for any insulin yet today. Earliest you could give insulin this evening would be in another 1.5 hours. That said, BG has fallen considerably and if my time calculation is right, you need to recheck BG no earlier than 11 hours post am shot to see how this cycle has played out. Right now I am still a bit flummoxed by the numbers so we need to make sure we don't jump the gun making decisions about insulin needs.
     
  50. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    You are correct - I wouldn’t give any insulin until 9:30 tonight

    So that was a 7/8ish after shot test
     
  51. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    All rightly then! This is indeed interesting. I really do have to wonder if he isn't getting into something he shouldn't. Another member recently discovered their cat has managed to get into a box that contained a new bag of kibble and chew the bag open for snack time whenever desired! :woot: Got any pet food you think is stored he might have found access to?

    Can you move that reading to the +7/8 cell on the spreadsheet please. One other thing, can you change the title on your sheet to include Max's name so it's identifiable as his. Sometimes those of us helping have multiple spreadsheets open at the same time and it really helps to easily identify the right sheet and avoid any confusion. Thanks. :D
     
  52. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    I think I found the stash .. the dog had kibble under the chair and a few pieces of candy from the kids too ..: then he was licking their plate after supper in the sink .. they know to rinse it off but I heard the dishes and went in and their he was in the sink
     
  53. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh the joys of a pilfering cat! Try to keep him out of any contraband between now and tonight's pre-shot.:smuggrin: I am really wondering if the diagnosis is wrong. Did your vet do a fructosamine test when the diagnosis was made? That is usually the definitive way to confirm diagnosis along with sugar in urine and high BG however, even that could be falsely high if kitty was repeatedly getting into stuff he shouldn't.
     
  54. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    If I difnt know better this cat I swear was a dog ... from the moment the lady gave him up he’s into been into everything including the dog food ... but I never noticed him in it much because they were just always free fed ...

    No- he just did the blood test that day and urine ..
     
  55. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    So all the vet did was an office BG? If so, then the diagnosis becomes even more questionable! Let's see where your little food kleptomaniac's BG is tonight. :p

    ETA Did Max display symptoms of diabetes like excess water intake, hungry ALL the time, and peeing excessively before diagnosis?
     
  56. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    that’s a perfect description for him .::

    Yes he did ... he lost a lot of weight and then sounded like a dog drinking water and lots of pee ... ruined an old couch
     
  57. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    OK. Sorry for the barrage of questions but was he eating dry food at the time of diagnosis? If so what kind and when did you switch to the Friskies/FF?
     
  58. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    That’s ok ... ask away I appreciate all the help

    He has been on Iams hairball/ weight ...I didn’t switch to all wet until about a month ago and that was my decision from trying to read and understand this ... the vet had put him on this prozinc because of the free feeding
     
  59. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Well the good news is that some diabetic cats when switched to a wet low carb diet, go into remission and it's possible Max is one of them given what we're seeing in his numbers as confounding as they might be right now. It's really vital to keep him away from anything other than his wet Friskies or FF as hard as that might be. I can only imagine what your household is like given I have 3 of the furry critters here and have to play lunchroom monitor for every meal because my diabetic girl who is in remission will pilfer her brother's food if not supervised. I can relate to how difficult this will be at least to some degree.
     
  60. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Well we can forget the accurate reading it was 531... after my last message I found him up on the rafters eating the canned food the other cat must not have finished .... add hudini to thatblist if names
     
  61. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Yes we have learned the hard way with out food ... we have all food off the counters ... breads in the oven because countless times they would get into that ..: one night I came down and the top part of my fridge was open and he was eating freezer food ‍♀️‍♀️... I think that just happened by chance because I think he jumped up and his weight pulled the door open
     
  62. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    At the ripe old age of 3, I wouldn't expect hyperthyroid but might be a idea to have him checked. That is unreal! How do you keep your sanity? Goodness knows what else Max got into. I have no idea what to think or tell you to do. Let me ponder for a few minutes. I think we're right around shot time now, correct?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  63. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Yes we are .. he got himself locked in the bathroom ... I have no sanity left lol ... on the bright side he must be feeling well because he got up an 8 foot wall the the rafter beam
     
  64. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Can you test for a few hours tonight if need be?
     
  65. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Yes I can set alarms if I have too .. I try and go to bed by 11
    4:45 am comes quick lol
     
  66. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    He was still at 147 last night so I didn’t give any insulin around 11:30 and this morning he was 392
     
  67. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Honestly - I think the stress makes his numbers go way up - I locked him in the bathroom early this morning 2 hours prior to testing so I know he wasn’t into anything
     
  68. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    For some reason I got no notification of your posts Thursday AM. I didn't see any BG on his SS for Thursday so curiosity is getting the better of me.
    How is Max doing?
     
  69. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    I must be doing something wrong in that spreadsheet - later that night he was 147 so I didn’t give him any insulin ... he got locked in the bathroom that night for a couple hours before his am shot and he was 392 in the morning ... so I have him .5 and went to work - cane himento him greeting us st the door and tested he was 176

    No pee since the other day ... yahoo
     
  70. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    He wasn’t acting well this morning ... just seemed like he was weak ... and, almost a paced out look ... so I just took his bg and it’s 443 ....he got his breakfast and he acted very good aggressive ... he was growling st the dogs walking by
     
  71. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    So did you give him insulin this morning?

    I am really wondering if there is something wrong with your glucometer. Your readings are all over the map and just don't make sense.

    I tested a meter that was identical (I think same meter but under different brand name here in Canada) and found a number of readings questionable when compared against my other pet meter. I also found that sometimes I could get readings despite the strip not necessarily being seated in the meter properly or having enough/too much blood. I believe the meter has been discontinued at this point in time.

    I'd suggest you pick up a Relion Premier meter from Walmart. Lot of folks use the Relion meters here because not only are pet meters expensive to use but but the strips are not readily available and have to ordered online. A human meter will work just fine.
     
  72. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    I gave him .5 this morning...
    I have a reli on that i use for myself, but i tried using it for him and I could never get enough blood.... That may be why I got it so cheap then, if its not accurate.

    See, this is why i questioned myself, I feel like I am killing him as his mom.... :(
     
  73. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    You are not killing him. You are doing your best and working toward getting him figured out and we'll help you do that. You've been proactive working at this. Take a deep breathe. We'll help you get him sorted out. Right now I think he's just feeling punky because of all the ups and downs in his BG due to the inconsistent insulin shots.

    If you want a meter that takes the smallest drop of blood, then you could try the Freestyle Lite. Strips are a bit more expensive but a lot of folks have been ordering them on Amazon or Ebay for very reasonable prices.

    I wonder if some of those lower readings have been due to not enough blood on the strip. The meter I tested definitely took more blood than both my other pet meter and my Freestyle Lite.

    What size lancet are you using? Can't remember what size came with that pet meter. Get some 26 or 28 gauge lancets. Those with higher gauge like 30 or more are too small when you are starting out testing, With time Max will grow more capillaries and getting blood will get easier. Are you warming Max's ear? Try putting a light skim of Vaseline on the spot you intent to poke. It makes the blood bead up instead of spreading into the fur. You can also milk his ear by stroking from the bottom to the top of his ear flap. If you see blood and Max is moving making it hard to get the blood into the strip, then grab the blood bead on a clean finger nail and test from there.

    With those high readings, and your report of him looking spacey, I think it would also be a good idea to check Max for ketones. You can get ketostix at the local pharmacy or Walmart and test his urine. Some folks can just hold a strip under kitty as they go. Others catch a sample on a little spoon. If Max is shy, putting scrunched up plastic wrap in the litter box where he likes to pee can catch a small sample for you to test. Now that said, with other cats in the house that can be problematic as you may not know whose pee you are testing.

    The other option is to get a glucometer that tests both BG and ketones. They are a bit more expensive but are a lot more convenient for checking ketones. There are several options in this category and I believe the most cost effective are the Nova Max Plus and KetoMojo. Blood tests for ketones do take larger blood samples than those needed for BG.
     
  74. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    Ok, I can do this... Well, we can do this... with your help we have come alot farther than we were.....

    I will get the other meter next week.

    I actually have those strips from when I was doing keto...lol
     
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  75. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    it was 95 ... when I tested ... he looked good but acted like he’s starving and is going after everything we pick up to eat tonight

    he has a lot of energy - this may seem strange but after he ate he got this strange look to him - almost like he was high

    I will def get a new meter at the end of next week though
     
  76. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    If the readings are anywhere close to accurate, poor Max is riding a roller coaster right now. It's quite normal for him to be very hungry because diabetics don't process and utilitze the food they eat well. They often need more food than usual until they are regulated. He's definitely a puzzle.
    I would suggest that tonight if BG is over 250, try a dose of 0.25u. You will have to eyeball it best you can. Let's see if lowering the dose settles his numbers at all. If BG is below 250 then I'd skip and see what he does tomorrow AM.
     
  77. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok - I will do that
    Thank you
     
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  78. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    He was good last night so I did not give him any ... he actually came up and crawled in bed with me last night that is something he hasn’t done for months

    He was 313 this morning so i gave him .25 and will retest around lunchtime
     
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  79. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    He’s been below 200 for the last 4 testings... he’s even playing with his ball again ..and grooming himself .., I will test again around 6!
     
  80. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Well those numbers are certainly a huge improvement but still a tad high. Let's see what he does over the next day or so. You may need to give him a teensy bit of insulin to bring those numbers down a bit more but if he doesn't need insulin, numbers should continue to drop on their own.
     
  81. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok - will do !! That .25 seemed to be ok when I did give it .., of course there is that part of - is this the calm before the storm ?
     
  82. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    That 0.25u was Ok when Max' BG started out in the 300s. I wouldn't try 0.25u at his current level but rather a drop or maybe 0.10u. The funny thing about insulin is that too much and too little can look exactly the same and right now every dose has looked to be too high. I have to seriously think that if Max is really diabetic he has had a big improvement from diet alone. Fingers crossed.
     
  83. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    He is 66 tonight ... I added some carbs to his food
     
  84. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    That is a spectacular BG!!! Keep going Max! :joyful:
     
  85. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Is that too low though?? He seemed a little weak this afternoon
     
  86. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    When you have not given insulin for several cycles there is NO need to worry about low numbers. That is a perfectly good reading. Not sure what you mean by him seeming weak, but I don't think it has anything to do with his BG. My girl as been as low as 47 on her pet meter since remission. I tested a meter that I believe was the Canadian version of yours and found it read low at high readings and high at low readings compared with my other pet meter. Not by enough on either end to make much difference though so it seems Max is right within normal range. The numbers we suggest here are for cats receiving insulin so there is a little cushion built in for safety purposes. Perhaps it's just Max trying to adjust after having his BG fluctuating so much lately.
     
  87. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Ok - thank you ... fingers crossed this keeps going
     
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  88. (GA) Gypsy's Parent

    (GA) Gypsy's Parent Member

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    Jul 24, 2019
    It's very odd, but my cat's left ear gives me plenty of blood, but the right one almost none. I suspect it has to do with position and right handedness. I might not be poking as deep in the right ear.
     
  89. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    :(:( Well I don’t know what transpired through the night but Max decided to poo all over the carpet and then his number was 380 this morning
     
  90. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    I can't help but think this has something to do with stress and territorial behaviour. Stress can elevate BG by 100 or more points and Max's numbers are so erratic they don't seem to fit the picture of diabetes.

    Not sure how all your cats were initially introduced but it may be necessary to go through a re-introduction. If the stress isn't from your cats, there may be a cat in the neighbourhood that is upsetting him by being around your house.

    In any event, the picture is still very muddled, you are still dealing with inappropriate elimination and I am not convinced that Max is diabetic and concerned that giving him insulin may be making the problem worse rather than better. With his numbers being so normal for a couple of days and then going way up again, he's either getting into food he shouldn't or he is extremely stressed or both.

    My suggestion is to take Max to the vet to totally rule out a UTI or any other urinary issues. Not sure what to tell you about the poo though.
    If his issues are territorial/behavioural and he is really stressed out, the vet could prescribe medication to calm him down.
     
  91. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    OMGGGG.... I think you are right.... So, I didn't give him any insulin this morning.... I set up a cat "sting" operation.... 5 minutes ago I kept getting all these camera notifications..... Eli "the one eye" is attacking Max.... I watched it and heard it...... So, I bet that is what is happening over night too...
     
  92. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Sounds like you're on to something. Who was in the house first....Eli or Max? Sounds like Eli wants to be Top Cat and Max is either being bullied out of his top spot or getting the brunt of Eli's dominance and then marking to try to maintain some sense of ownership. I have never dealt with such a problem myself but I think Jackson Galaxy from "My Cat from Hell", has some helpful tips and tricks on his website. I am sure there are other sites with tips too. Perhaps more playtime to take some of the energy out of Eli and Max before bed or leaving the house will have them sleeping instead of fighting in your absence or while you are sleeping. Talking to your vet may also be helpful.
     
  93. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    This was the order:
    Peter ( we adopted him because nobody else would, and he had a throat box injury) he squeaks instead of meows
    Eli ( a few months after - again felt bad because he only had one eye - hence the name Eli the one eye)
    Rosey - which someone found as a stray so they brought her to me and i was like sure she can stay outside .... well then the eyes kept looking in the window... and that was it ..

    Then, came Max.... he was only to be a foster.... The people that had bought him, decided or figured out they were allergic to him..... So they wanted rid of him and I said sure I can help you out.... well that was almost 3 years ago.... Now, that I think back... when he first came he was doing the same thing... pottying on my floors..... and I though now i know why they got rid of you.

    Anyway... peter and eli used to be best pals and now its like Eli is a bully..... he goes after Peter too .....

    Would stress mimic all the symptoms of diabetes? He even has hair loss ?
     
  94. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Stress can do a lot of things and I'm sure like us, every cat is different in how they manifest the stress. Hair loss I think could very well come from stress. Could it be hair loss from fighting or maybe over grooming that cats will do as a soothing strategy.

    Are you sure there are no cats hanging around outside that might be triggering Eli to feel more territorial and display it with bullying tactics? Some cats are far more territorial than others. Could your elimination issues with Max be a result of Eli or one of the others stopping him from getting to the litter box or scaring him while he's in the box?

    You've got some detective work to do to sort all this out but in the meantime, I'd get them all to the vet for a once over to make sure there isn't anything medical that could be making Eli behave differently now especially with his former pal. Maybe Eli needs medication to calm him down. Definitely speak with your vet for some ideas.
     
  95. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    Max’s numbers have been high all day .. I even locked him in the bathroom last night

    I have separated the other two for now too
     
  96. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Being locked in the bathroom could be elevating his numbers too. I don't know what to tell you. You don't want to be giving insulin if it's not needed but then you do need to give it if it is needed. I really think it's time to get some input from your vet about how to move forward.
    In the meantime, feed Max and then retest about 3 to 4 hours later to see if his BG has come down.
     
  97. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    I know I’m a complete mess tonight... I’m trying to get this all right for him ... he had an appointment the 19th ...

    He has lost 2 lbs in a month we just weighed him
     
  98. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    As for the low normal BGs he's been getting and the weight loss, is there any possibility that he wasn't getting the food he would normally eat due to the other kitties? 2 lbs in a month is substantial weight loss. How old is Max? Has he been checked for hyperthyroid?
     
  99. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    I’m sure some of the weight loss is because he’s on a controlled diet now... they just free fed all the time since we got him until he was diagnosed

    No he hasn’t been checked - I’m keeping a log and then going to the dogs vet in two weeks with him ...
     
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  100. Mcessna

    Mcessna Member

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    Aug 5, 2019
    Thank you for all your help....
    Max played like a kitten last night before we went to bed and I was so grateful for that. I was so happy when we went to bed..
    Sometime through the night, Max left my bed went downstairs and passed away.. I found him this morning. My heart is broken.... I failed him
     

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