My boy just diagnosed, I'm confused, devastated

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by Jainarayan, Jul 23, 2017.

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  1. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    I'm Jainarayan, male. My boy's name is Christian, he's 7. For the past week or so he's been having problems jumping. Most people don't want cats jumping on the table, but that's where I have to feed him or the dogs will eat his food. Trouble jumping was the first thing I noticed. I've since put a step stool he can use to climb.

    He hasn't looked right: fur getting "mothy" despite combing and brushing him; lost weight almost overnight; somewhat lethargic, having to try two or three times to get on the table; I had to put wee-wee pads on the floor, though he uses the litterbox too. I don't think he knows what he's doing when he urinates on yhe floor because at times he stares off into space. This all occurred within a matter of days.

    I took him to the vet because I was getting increasingly worried. She took blood and urine samples and came back in the room with the results... diabetes with his blood sugar almost 400 and some blood in his urine.

    The doctor said he could be treated with insulin. I've stopped his dry food and give him as much canned as he wants. I use Blue Wilderness. I could certainly check his blood and give him injections. But she said we're looking at thousands in cost. I simply do not have that kind of money. The doctor said it could still all be in vain. Maybe the diabetes is that advanced?

    I asked how this happened, what did I do wrong? At his last checkup in Sept. 2016 his blood sugar was only slightly elevated, doctor said probably due to the stress of the visit. I know cats are extremely talented at hiding illness. When you do see symptoms it's usually pretty advanced. Is he that critical for it to be so high and for him to change and lose weight almost overnight?

    The other option she said is to do nothing. She said there's no shame in it because of the cost, which is beyond a lot of people's mean. Right, so I can be called one of those people who have an animal they can't take care of? I know I'm being irrational because I've rescued sick animals before (ferrets, cats, a puppy) and gave them a home and care for the time they had left.

    So without being able to afford treatment I have to opt for making him as happy and comfortable as possible until either he decides to leave his body to take a new birth (a better one I hope), or it's time to send him to take his next birth (I'm Hindu, we believe in rebirth)? That's a euphemistic way of saying watch him die or decide when it's time to put him down?

    If 10 people all beat me at the same time with Louisville Sluggers it would hurt less than this. I just don't know what to do. Someone please advise me.
     
  2. TempestsMum

    TempestsMum Guest

    Ok, welcome to feline diabetes! I'm really glad you found us.

    First things first, take several deep breaths and we will see what we can do to sort this out for you.

    The main health forum is for your questions but let me just give you a quick run down of what is and what's not. :bighug:

    First of all. Feline diabetes (FD) is treatable and in many instances kitties can go into remission so it's not a death sentence by any means.

    Stopping dry food is a fantastic first step, but you also want to feed low carb wet food that will reduce his blood glucose as well. 400 bg isn't actually bad considering it was done at the vets office when his bg will be higher anyway so it's possible it's closer to being 300 and also possible it can be diet controlled.

    If you do need to use insulin there are different types at different prices, so one may be affordable for you.
    A glucose meter need not cost the earth either and one for testing humans with will do just fine. This will allow you to track kitty's glucose levels which is really important if you are using insulin.

    It would be a dreadful and painful death if left untreated, and while the initial outlay may cost a bit, generally it's manageable by most people. There are also charities that will assist if it came to it. Last scenario is to rehome kitty to someone who can take care of him/her.

    I hope you choose to take the path where he stays with you and gets the treatment he needs. :)
     
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  3. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks for responding so quickly.

    The vet listed out an estimate for the initial full blown testing. It came to something like $600-700 (roughly). I don't have the list with me now but I remember fructosamine and another -amine test on there.

    I may have been so rattled I misunderstood her in that this would be done every month. She said insulin itself is $300, but that can't be for one month. Given that I got the idea it would be close to $1,000 a month.

    I think I definitely have to ask the vet more questions.
     
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  4. TempestsMum

    TempestsMum Guest

    No problem there's usually someone around to help. :)

    Ok so that sounds really expensive!

    She may have meant you to leave your cat in for curves, but you can do your own curves at home with a blood glucose meter. Cost of this is approx 36 dollars for 100 tests plus the meter.

    Normally a bottle insulin lasts a few months - maybe more for most people. Insulin is NOT 300 a vial unless she's trying to sell you a gold plated vial! Go look on some of the pet pharmacy sites for prices. I think ProZinc (the insulin I used)was one of the expensive ones and cost me under £100 for a vial. But you can ask for a prescription and get it yourself.

    So um.. maybe time to change your vet if that's what she's said.. a lot of vets want to do the curves and disagree with home testing just to put more money in their pockets! And it never gives a true reading at the vets due to stress so it's pointless and a waste of your money!
     
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  5. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

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    May 9, 2017
    Hi Jainarayan, welcome to FD.

    First, hugs and deep breaths!
    Second. Treating diabetes can be affordable.
    What country do you live in? (That may change costs depending on access to medication.)

    Okay, so my vet DID charge me a thousand dollars when we got our Fabby diagnosed. So your vet is right - that's totally a possibility - if you listen to your vet. It still makes me sooo mad that I did listen and just didn't know enough and got way taken advantage of. First, get a new vet.

    So my biggest concern for you is that your kitty has blood in his urine and your doc wasn't concerned about treating that at all?
    I had a different kitty, Tristan, who had a UTI and some crystals forming who the vets we're sure it was diabetes. His glucose tested in the 900's. They sent me home with diabetes info. I asked if we could get his urinary issues resolved first as they were life threatening, and then we can check on the diabetes. My vet agreed. Turns out he was spilling glucose because he was super stressed and in pain. After we got his urinary issues resolved and his diet changed to prevent more issues with crystals he wasn't diabetic at all. All of the techs and vet's mouth's were open in surprise at the results.

    So please, get a second opinion with a different vet, and definitely focus on the urinar concern first, as those are horribly painful for the male kitties.

    Now if your kitty is still diabetic without the urinary issue, you don't have to do a fructosimine. That test doesn't even provide accuracy. All it does is take an average of the cats glucose over a 2-3 week period. So if your kitty does have an infection and has been throwing high glucose the past week but normally runs non-diabetic, the fructosimine will still come back diabetic because it's an average and those high numbers will skew the test.

    If you're in the U.S. Go ahead and pick up a human meter for home testing. (This will even help if you do go get a 2nd opinion with a new vet, so the sooner this can be done the better. The more info you have the better for Christian.) A lot of us in here with human meters use the one from Walmart because of cost/convenience. The ReliOn Confirm uses the smallest blood drop at .3 and the meter is $15 and the test strips ar cheap (for strips). I think I pay $20 for 50 strips or $35 for 100. So start up on the meter could be as low as $35.00 to get you started testing. (You can also check the forum for people giving away/selling their diabetes equipment on this thread.)

    Insulin... there are insulins that cost $300 from the vet. You don't have to choose to use that kind of insulin. If you feel you need to start off with a cheaper insulin, I use Vetsulin, the cost is $60.00 and it lasts me 4-6 weeks before it expires.
    So far we're at just about $100 for getting your cat diabetic treatment. (If he even needs it.)

    For my second opinion I found a non-profit vet that's an hour away. My second opinion with fructosimine test and insulin included cost me $125.00. My vet supposrts home testing and was actually surprised at how good the numbers were looking because I followed the advice of the experienced people here. (Again, you don't need the fructosimine test, I did it because my non-profit could do it so cheap.)

    So, don't give up. 7 years old is young in the life of a house cat. And like Tempestsmum said, your kitty might even not need insulin and might be able to be managed with food. I use Friskies Classic Pate flavors for Fabby because they all are 6 carbs or less. Our first glucose reading at the vet was in the mid 500's. So this is do-able, and the great people here will help you manage Christian at home if you want!

    Hang in there. The beginning is stressful, but the more you learn the easier it gets. There are some great videos in here to show you how to test your kitty's glucose at home. Let me know if you want me to post some for you!
     
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  6. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Sounds like your vet wants to use Lantus, which is an excellent insulin for cats, but yeah, it's crazy expensive...However, you can ask for a written script (just tell them you want to shop around) and then you can send it to Canada where it's 1/3rd the price!!

    I think the majority of us that use Lantus are buying from Canada now. Here's all the information on where we're buying from

    If you get the 5 pack of pens, that's 1500 units.....that's enough to last most cats at least a year so it breaks down to about $15/month

    If you go to WalMart, you can get U100 insulin syringes for $12.58 for a box of 100

    The Relion Confirm or Micro meters are about $15 and the strips are $35.88/100

    You don't need to feed an expensive "prescription" food either (no matter what your vet says)...Most of us feed Fancy Feast Classics, Friskies pates or 9-Lives ground foods which are all low carb and fine for diabetics.

    We can help you manage this without breaking the bank
     
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  7. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    My vetsulin was still working fine after 3 months... so you can stretch it out much longer then 6 weeks.
     
  8. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    You've had great advice so far. I can't believe your vet misled you like that. :( Fructosamine tests are NOT NECESSARY. All that tells you is the average glucose in the urine over the past 2-3 weeks. If you are testing at home, that information is not helpful.

    get on a good oral antibiotic for the uti. UTI's are painful and can be dangerous for male cats if they develop a blockage. Infection and vet stress raise Blood glucose levels.

    The leg weakness is called neuropathy... good news is once you get the BG under control it is reversible, esp. if you also give Vitamin B12 Meth. supplements (available online for just a few dollars. Google Zobaline... available on amazon.

    It's not necessary to go to the vet often with diabetes. Once I learned how to test at home I just emailed my vet a copy of CC's spreadsheet every few weeks to keep her in the loop. as a matter of fact this month was the first time she had been to the vet in a year. no reason to do curves there. tests are more accurate at home where the cat isn't stressed out.

    The insulin lasts 4 or more months generally. So while it's pricy, it lasts a while. There are different insulines. my vetsulin is about $50. Prozinc is around $110. Lantus is about $300 in the us, but if you order from Canada you can get a year's supply for $150.

    With home testing it's more possible to regulate your cat and get it into remission. My cat was on insulin for four months before going into remission, and has not needed a shot in 10 months. It is not a death sentence.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
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  9. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

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    May 9, 2017
    I got my first vial from the vet that charged me $1000.00 so I have no idea how long he kept it there before he gave it to me or how rsponsible he was about the conditions... but after being fleeced on diagnosis, I don't trust him at all.
    I'm on my second vial now, so I hope I have much longer lifespan on this one!
     
  10. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks everyone. I tried responding individually but I keep getting an error.

    Anyway, I'm in NJ. Based on all the comments I am now leaning towards getting another opinion at another vet. I've used this animal hospital since 1990, but things change. I may even have a glucose meter or two at home, my late mother-in-law was diabetic.
     
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  11. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    I am horrified at the advice your vet gave you, especially suggesting you not treat your cat! Feline diabetes is so very treatable, and need not cost a fortune. Please take to heart all the good advice you've gotten from the folks here. And if, I were you, I would definitely be looking for a new vet!!!

    Welcome to FDMB, I hope you have a very long and happy life with your super-sweet kitty! :):):)
     
  12. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Welcome Jainarayan and Christian!
    You've been given some great advice so I'm just adding support! My boy's initial diagnosis exam, first vial of insulin, over priced syringes, and over priced unnecessary prescription food (later returned) was about $500. I had purchased an AlphaTrak 2 pet meter but being unemployed that was unrealistic to keep affording so I joined the forum, after reading things for a day or two, and ended up switching to a human glucometer :).

    Obviously my credit cards are getting a little workout but it's still a lot less than if I was doing things the way his old Vet's (yes, I've been through 2) it would have cost way more and he probably would've ended up on too high a dose of insulin and had a Hypo emergency visit. Anyways, my point is it's totally manageable and safer if you take some of our suggestions. Correct, we are not Vet's but everyone here has or has had a diabetic kitty that we manage 24/7.

    I do hope you'll find a second opinion if that will help you, but also take some of our suggestions :bighug:. If you have an older glucose meter, it will work for now but they can go bad after a few years. Like Chris said, many of us in the states use Walmart's ReliOn Confirm / Micro meter for $15 and test strips in store are $35.88/100ct. Sometimes you can find test strips for less online too. Since you haven't started the insulin yet, I hope you'll switch to the low carb wet food diet immediately. Christian could have a chance of being diet controlled :cat:.

    Regardless, please let us know what you decide to do and we'll be here [​IMG]
     
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  13. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Hey fellow NJ person! :D I'm in Bergen county... where are you? Many of us on here use the Relion Micro or Confirm from walmart because the strips are cheap. That's great if you have one already... make sure you pick one that needs a small blood size (.3) as opposed to a larger size (.5 or .6) because it can be hard to get a blood drop at first from a cat's ear. I have a video in my signature showing how I test my cat CC that you can watch.
     
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  14. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks. :) As I think about her advice I'm torn between being enraged and being horrified I'd consider it. But I'm not going to get more worked up than I am. Christian is my main concern. So to that end I just submitted an appt. request to another vet. hosp. nearby.
     
  15. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks for the info. I have a lot of homework to do.

    I'm Exit 102. :D Monmouth County.
     
  16. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Believe me when I say I'm definitely taking all your advice, and am greatly relieved and grateful. :) It's only by accident I found this site. I was searching for how much feline diabetes care costs.
     
  17. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    153 here. haha My mom is down by you at 89. haha You're by tinton falls vet specialists.
     
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  18. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Oh yeah, that's what I forgot to mention, that I contacted Red Bank Veterinary Hospital for an appt. People have praised them for years.
     
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  19. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

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    May 9, 2017
    Jainarayan, JanetNJ is one of my Diabetes experts I've been following advice from. If you can get a vet recommendation from her that is awesome! It puts you way ahead of the game when looking for your 2nd opinion.

    (Assuming that was a recommendation, @JanetNJ )
     
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  20. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    so the first month sucks with having a vet bill and paying for the insulin and other supplies all at the same time... but maintenance really isn't bad. figure with test strips and needles and lancets about $45-50 a month. about $12 a week. it's really not awful. then every few months you need to buy another vial of insulin... but like we said, there are affordable choices for insulin. and if you're lucky your cat will have periods of remission.
     
  21. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    my sister lived in brick for years... but I don't really know anyone specific in your area. Make sure you get a copy of all the lab reports from your current vet so they don't do duplicate bloodwork if you switch vets. Just ask the receptionist to email it to you.
     
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  22. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    There is a learning curve, but as you've already seen this is a super supportive group, and there are folks familiar with all kinds of insulin, and we are more then happy to answer any questions and give advice on testing, dosing, feeding, whatever you need. You just watch, in six months it will be you dispensing the advice to the newbies.. hahah a diabetes diagnosis is so overwhelming at first. I remember crying non stop for about 12 hours straight wondering if I could handle it... if I was torturing her... if I could afford it. within two weeks it was all routine, CC felt better, and it was not the huge mountain I thought it was. Then when I found this site and learned to test, well that's when I really took the bull by the horns and went from a goal of keeping her alive, to a goal of really getting her WELL.
     
  23. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    I know my sister took her cat there when he was suspected of having cancer (he did unfortunately)... it's a huge place. It's a referral only place with specialists like neurologists and oncologists and a 24 hour emergency er place. I don't think it's a regular vet place but I could be wrong. Good to have nearby in case of an emergency though.
     
  24. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Yeah, I cried for the past two days. It's not pretty seeing a 225 lb bear cry. Now it seems to be not as bad as I first thought. My only concern is learning how to poke his ear and give the injection. He's not the most cooperative patient. At the vet he gets downright nasty hissing, growling, screaming and fighting them. They have to towel him.
     
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  25. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

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    Jun 8, 2016
    make sure you always give a treat after. Some find it easier to inject while they are still eating.... the needles are really thin so they barely feel it. Start desensitizing him to having his ears touched and tugging on his scruff as you show affection. when you pet him stroke his ears a bit. I have a video in my signature showing how I test my cat. She's very cooperative in the video, but the first two weeks she didn't like it. she then started associating the test with a snack (she liked deli meats... turkey and ham) and started to enjoy it. If they are squirming you can also get the drop onto your nail and test from there.
     
  26. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Good idea about when to do the injection. He's already used to me touching his ears because when we play I tickle and rub his ears. He likes deli turkey.
     
  27. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    ok then... you got this. ;) we are all here to support you and root you on.
     
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  28. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Here's something I wrote up for others that needed help with testing...maybe it'll help you too!

    It can be really helpful to establish a routine with testing. Pick one spot that you want your "testing spot" to be (I like the kitchen counter because it's got good light and it's at a good height....it also already blocked 2 escape routes due to the wall and the backsplash) It can be anywhere though...a rug on the floor, a table, a particular spot on the couch...wherever is good for you. Take him there as many times a day as you can and just give his ears a quick rub and then he gets a yummy (low carb) treat. Most cats aren't objecting so much with the poking..it's the fooling with their ears they don't like, but once they're desensitized to it and learn to associate a certain place with the treats, they usually start to come when they're called! Or even when they hear us opening the test kit!

    You also have to remember...you're not poking him to hurt him...you're testing him to keep him safe and understand what's going on inside his body. There's just nothing better than truly understanding what's going on inside your kitty's body and with this disease, the more knowledge you have, the more power you have against it. The edges of the ears have very few pain receptors, so it really doesn't hurt them. Also, if you're nervous and tense, it's going to make your kitty nervous and tense too. As silly as it might seem, try singing! It forces you to use a different part of your brain!

    It's also important to make sure his ear is warm. A small sock filled with a little rice and microwaved or a small pill bottle filled with warm water (check temp against your wrist like you would a baby bottle) works well.

    When you're first starting, it's also important to use a lower gauge lancet, like 25-28 gauge. Most of the "lancet devices" come with 33 gauge lancets and they are just too tiny to start with. The bigger lancets (that are lower numbers) make a bigger "hole". As you poke more and more, the ears will grow new capillaries and will be easier and easier to get blood from...we call it "learning to bleed"

    Finding the right "treat" will be a great help too! Freeze dried chicken, bonito flakes, little pieces of baked chicken...whatever low carb treat you can find that he really enjoys will help him to associate the testing with the treat! China's Achilles heel was baked chicken, so I'd bake a piece, chop it into bite sized pieces, put some in the refrigerator and freeze the rest to use as needed. It didn't take long for her to come any time I picked up the meter!
     
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  29. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Former Jersey here. I was South River, exit 9 on turnpike. Now Pocono PA.

    Welcome, I'm concerned like Alphacat about blood in the urine. Could be urine infection that will cause glucose to rise or crystals as mentioned.

    In the beginning cost can be a bit much but you will figure out with help here how to save on some things and best place to get insulin and supplies. Once you have everything, the most expense long term is testing strips. Regular canned cat food can be purchased when on sale. Insulin, depending on dose can last close to a year if handled properly.

    A lot of vets will require a hospital stay to start insulin and "regulate" your cat. That would cost the most. They may not give prescription for insulin unless you allow it, so be prepared that could be the $1000+ that you were told. My Smokey was diabetic for 6 yrs. He was 12 when diagnosed.

    Getting kitty on low carb wet food (fancy feast pate) now before insulin starts is really a smart move. Also get him use to his ears being touched.

    Glad you are going to another vet. Keep us posted. Also making this site a frequent stop of your daily routine should be considered.
     
  30. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thank you very much for the support and tips. I have the site bookmarked and have been bouncing around reading some posts.

    He's eating Blue Buffalo Wilderness canned. He's been eating it for some time, but along with the dry. I stopped the dry completely. He eats the canned several times a day now instead of having the dry free-feeding. So far he still has a good appetite. He gets quite vocal and demanding when he wants to eat.

    I can also get him Hill's Prescription Diabetic, which is even higher in protein and extremely low carb. I talked to one of the other doctors who said I can get it. But I think the Blue Wilderness is almost as good.

    Maybe hospitalizing him initially is not the worst idea ever. I would rest easier knowing he'd get off to a good start.
     
  31. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    I don't think hospitalized helps. They almost always put them on too high of a dose because the numbers are high because the cat is stressed. They don't get regulated over night.
    The perscription dry is actually not low enough in carb. It's about 14-16%... Better than most dry, but still too high for a diabetic. (There are only a handful of dry under 10%) Most cats don't like the canned perscription diabetic foods and they are no better than what you can get at the store... And expensive.
     
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  32. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

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    May 9, 2017
    Okay... the prescription diabetic foods are actually high in carbs. Check out Dr. lisa's food list to see where what you're feeding now falls, as well as the prescription, and then find a food that's where you want to be with carbs (which is under 10%) but if there's a urinary issue present, you may need to watch phosphorus (also listed on the list).
    Also, hospitalization is NOT required or recommended. All they are doing is getting a curve. They are (or should be) watching to make sure your kitty doesn't go hypo. They do this because they don't tell people to test at home. If the vet you are going to doesn't support you home testing walk away. Personally, I'd call and interview the vet before you show up for the appointment so you're not wasting money. I want to know their philosophy and how much they actually know about managing diabetes before I trust their care.
    Also, they will NOT have your cat regulated during a hospitalization. Again, they are just testing the same as you can do at home on a regular basis while insulin is started. Go to the intro threads are read the horror stories about the advice from vet's starting their kitty's off at 2 or 4 units twice a day. Leaving your cat at the vet will only make your kitty's numbers read higher, meaning the vet may over prescribe insulin and then instruct you to give the same amount at home. When you get home and give the prescribed amount, kitty is no longer stressed out, now kitty's insulin drops too low and you have a hypo event at home anyway AND you are out a grand from the hospitalization AND you may have an ER vet visit to pay for due to potential hypo event.
    Again, there is NO reason to REQUIRE a hospitalization for diabetes, and it's counter productive, if a vet does require this, they just want your money, not what's in your cat's best interest, and you should run away.
    *The only exception is if you were unwilling to test at home.
     
  33. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Hill's has nothing actually "prescription" about it, it's just a ruse to get consumers to pay more money for it, and it's not very good food for any cat. You would do better just to get some Fancy Feast pates or some Friskies, 9 Lives, etc, decent low carb food and cheaper than the Hill's. HERE is a list of readily-available foods, with their protein, fat, carbs, noted. Anything under 10% is considered acceptable for our diabetic kitties. :)
     
  34. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015

    I was just pointing out some vets will not give a prescription unless they start the insulin and monitor in hospital. It's a sad reality she needs to know could happen.
     
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  35. sherrib

    sherrib Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    I'm so mad right now at your vet! I actually skipped all the post .
    Please get another vet, the one you have is clueless!
    Please please follow the advice you get here. I've had 2 diabetic cats and because of this awesome group I have gotten both of them into remission. And I did not listen to my vet who wanted me to use prescription dry food. And who also didn't support home testing.
     
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  36. sherrib

    sherrib Well-Known Member

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    Oct 27, 2015
    Yes!! So happy to see this
     
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  37. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    I get that, that's why I recommended calling first not to waste her time with an initial appointment just to find out the next vet is just after her money. Because vets who require this do not have your pet's or your best interest, it's all about the money. That is a bad vet. If my medical doctor behaved that way I'd be livid.
     
  38. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    I was able to go through all the responses again. Thank you all. I'm expecting a call back from the second vet sometime today. I have more questions now based on what everyone here said.

    Without being naive, Christian seems pretty good today compared to how he's been. He's eating, drinking some water but not a lot, snuggling, walking around and being nosy. For the first time in the past week he curls up in his bed and sleeps as he's always done. He sat still while I combed and brushed him.

    The other thing I'll have to mention is the urinating outside his litterbox, though he does use it. There are two places I have to put wee-wee pads. I wonder if that is indeed from a uti. I just thought the doctor could tell what a uti is in a cat and off-the-bat given him an antibiotic. But what do I know.
     
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  39. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Did they send out for a culture and sensitivity test? Clovamax is usually a good antibiotic for a cat. Uti will def cause cats to go outside the box. Is there visible blood on the pad?
     
  40. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    I'm glad he's speaking to feel better.
    Good luck with the new vet!
    And yes trust your gut! Any vet should have been concerned about blood in the urine.
     
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  41. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    She won't send the samples out unless it's the whole series of tests. That's the set that she wrote up Friday night. It includes the fructosamine, CBC, and others I can't remember (I don't have the list with me, it's at home). No blood on the pads.
     
  42. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    This makes my blood boil!!!
     
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  43. Bee

    Bee Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2017
    Welcome , you really found the best place. My vet told me the same thing almost that it would cost thousands and it'd be so difficult to treat myself so on and so forth. He suggested we put him down. It's been almost a month now but we are doing pretty good. I've been checking his blood glucose myself at home im actually pretty good at it now. I would suggest finding a new vet, i know that can be hard as well. Im pretty new at this and still learning a ton everyone here as one common goal to keep our cats happy and healthy as possible. Best of luck
     
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  44. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Right!? At the risk of sounding money-driven, that's the set that comes to $600-700. Knowing what I know now, learning from here, I'm not willing to do that without that 2nd opinion. Maybe all those tests aren't necessary at this point, maybe another vet is more astute and experienced.
     
  45. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    I'm glad your little guy is doing better. :)
     
  46. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Update:

    Ok, so we haz an appt. on Sat. @ Red Bank Veterinary Hosp. It's an internal med. consult. The receptionist said to get Christian's exam results from my regular vet. I'll have them e-mailed. I gave her a run-down of the issue, and said in no uncertain terms why I want a 2nd opinion. She was very nice and understanding. The consult and exam is $185. She said if there's an emergency go right in to their ER. If he stays stable I think we can wait. And I'm going to copy and distill down into Word what I've posted here to bring to the vet. There's a reason I get paid as a nerd. :D
     
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  47. Gladioli66

    Gladioli66 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    I am quite new to this message board, but it has helped me to be better informed/educated about how to take proper care of my kitties. I received great advice when I was panicked about Harley. One month ago my Harley had BG of 510. This morning it was 89, only 2 1/2 weeks after starting him on an all canned diet using the food list from this site. I would suggest you read all this site has to offer as well as consider all the great advice. You might want to read the book "Your Cat" by Elizabeth Hodgkins, DVM. It is an awesome book and reinforces all the great advice I received here.
     
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  48. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Wow, that's excellent results! If I'm not mistaken 89 is normal. Continued good health for Harley! :) I think feline b.g. is just a little wider range than human. I can't believe how bad dry food is turning out to be. I read http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-dry-food-is-bad-for-cats-and-dogs/ and wanted to puke.

    I am unbelievably thankful I stumbled onto this site.
     
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  49. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    I hope things go much better for you on your 2nd opinion.
    Just some additional advice about your above statement.
    I have a chronic illness and have 6 specialists I see, and my primary doctor. It took 7 years to get to my diagnosis, including exploratory surgery.
    I also have 8 cats, all found their way to my door or rescued over the last 15 years. All been seen by a vet, and certainly spayed and neutered.
    I bring up this resume of doctors and vets to give you the advice that, doctors hate it when you print testimonials from the internet. I say this not to discourage you from gaining the best info for you and your cat, but instead to help you get the best treatment. Doctors spend a lot of time correcting things people read off the internet, in many cases the person was trying to avoid seeing the doctor in the first place and tried crazy things for treatment instead of trusting the medical establishment with their care. I sit in enough waiting rooms to see quite a bit of the crazy they have to fight to sympathize with them. It must be tiring to hear your medical degree challenged every 15 minutes by someone who read something on WebMD.
    So with this advice, I would recommend leaving this thread in the car (in case you need to reference something specific you learned here). By leaving it in the car you will be less likely to offer a challenge to your new doc, from whom you want and need something - good care for your cat.

    Or even better, typing out your own list of facts to bring along with you that don't have to do with our collective experience here.
    Like Dr. Lisa's food list, for example in case the prescription food is recommended over something that is lower carb.
    Or the reasons to test at home, like, a doctor wouldn't suggest you give insulin to a child without testing the glucose first, why would I do that to my beloved cat?
    Or a list of ways diabetes can be managed instead of a death sentence.
    It might also be good to have the internet prices of insulin and syringes with you so your new vet can match price or offer you a script so you can go with the best price.

    The goal is to have the info you need and want, without challenging the doctors expertise, while also getting to the bottom of your kitty's urinary issue, glucose numbers, and leg/jumping weakness without breaking the bank.

    The people here are really good at offering experience related advice, which can help you immensely on your journey. What we can't do is diagnose, or prescribe, or even treat. But you want to know the best way to transition a cat to a wet food diet that is low in carbs, we got you. You want to know how to get your cat to look forward to the ear testing - we're your board. If your kitty goes too low on a glucose test we can help you stabilize until/unless you need to rush to the ER vet. We can most certainly be outraged that your previous vet allowed you to walk out of their office expecting your kitty to die because you couldn't/didn't want to pay a grand for a diagnosis. We are here for your support, but you still need a partnership with your vet. Challenging the vet often doesn't lead to that win/win/win relationship, and that's the relationship all of us want for you and Christian.

    (P.S. I found this site on my own when the vet told me over the phone Fabby's diagnosis. When I went to pick up my cat from the curve I could have done myself, but paid a grand for... the vet mentioned this site - even gave me a print out with the website directly to Dr. Lisa's food/carb list. So then I came here and learned just how much I was over charged. And to be fair to the vet, they don't often deal with feline diabetes, and even less do they deal with a caretaker that is willing to home test and keep track of their pet's glucose on a spreadsheet. It's weird though, the disconnect. The vet knows I care enough about my cat to pay a grand for one visit, but doesn't think I care enough to do care at home...)

    As always, take my advice for what it is, a testomonial of someone with experience, lol.
     
  50. Gladioli66

    Gladioli66 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2017
    Yes, Harley's BG this morning was normal. I went to the vet expecting to start him on insulin. It was a wonderful surprise. It has been a stressful month, but we can relax a bit now. We will have to keep our kitties on canned food forever, but I can live with that. No more steroids either. It is thought Harley was already on the edge and steroids threw him into really high BGs. The "premium dry food" we had been feeding him was likely the explanation for why we could only feed him 1/3 cup dry for the whole day and he remained overweight. Poor cat. We had been starving him nutritionally and by amount fed and did not even know it. Like you, I am so glad I found this site. I hope your kitty has some positive changes with his new wet food diet. Like many others, I was truly appalled by the ignorance of your vet, the prices she quoted and the things she said. I am glad you are looking into finding someone new because You and your kitty deserve better.
     
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  51. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks, your points are well taken. :) I mean the things I wrote about his appearance and behavior, and observing him over the week. Otherwise I may forget what I want to tell her. I tend to get rattled and forget things. Just as you said, my own list of observations and questions. Not to worry, as valuable as all this information is for me, I have no desire to compete with the vet. :D
     
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  52. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Phew! I would hate that our support would start you off on the wrong foot!

    I make many lists for doctors, so I completely get that! Symptoms, things to make it better, things that make it worse, days it happens, etc... before I was diagnosed I was keeping a color coded spreadsheet on my own symptoms, lol the doc joked that I was OCD. But if I don't make my lists I forget and then leave without what I needed addressed.

    I also thought about one other thing for your list... vet's love their fructosimine tests, which as many here believe they are useless if you have someone home testing and keeping a spreadsheet. You might want to make a reference of what the fructosimine test does so if your vet discusses it with you you can decline it and recommend that you begin treatment (if applicable after dealing with the urinary concern, again, your cat might not even be diabetic.) with the current numbers and build a spreadsheet history. If the vet still thinks it's needed after reviewing your spreadsheet in a month, you could choose to agree at that time (pending cost) of the test at this vet.

    (Also sorry, I tend to write novels...)
     
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  53. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks... good luck to all if us. :)

    Christian actually always preferred canned food. He starts meowing, dancing around, pushing and generally acting like a little kid. And he gobbles the food. Even now being sick. He seems to have lost interest in dry food, so no loss there. I noticed tonight that he washed his paws and face after eating. I haven't seen him do that in at least a week. And he's dtarting to talk back again. I don't want to delude myself, but I really hope it comes down to his diet.

    See, he had a very rough start in life. I got him when he was about 5 weeks old and 1.5 lb. He was separated from his mother and not fully weaned. He was dehydrated and only a few hours away from death. We got him to the hospital in the nick of time. Even then the vet didn't think he would make it. He was hospitalized for 4 days with an i.v. But he kicked butt and came home, having gained a pound or two in the hospital. My female Shih tzu took over watching him and sort of adopted him. :)
     
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  54. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Lol No worries.

    True story... when I found an endocrinologist for myself (I am hypothyroid and had abyssmally low LH and FSH, therefore abysmally low testosterone) I had done a lot of research.

    When I had my first consult with her and brought my labs (my previous doctor ran them but blew off the results), and explained what I knew about it and how I was feeling and why, she looked at me and said "you're a doctor?"

    Ok, here comes the tongue-lashing about being a Wikipedia Doctor, I thought. I said "no ma'am, I just read too much". She said "well, your knowledge of this is commendable, because you're right on all counts". That was one of the proudest days of my life. But I never pushed my luck with any doctors after that. :D
     
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  55. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    I have a similar story with my Runswith on how she came into my life. She lived to be 20... and only ever got to 8lbs full grown. The little ones that need you the most always seem to pull the hardest at the heart strings.

    Grooming is a good sign!!!

    What's the water consumption like?

    On the doctors part, good for you for holding your own!
     
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  56. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Don't I know! :( One kitten I took in at 4 or 5 weeks over 20 years ago, developed severe asthma. I kept syringes of depomedrol and epinephrine at home, she was on prednisone. When I had to go away for a business workshop I boarded her at the animal hospital. I wouldn't put the responsibility of giving her injections on my friends or family who might cat-sit. Sure enough, she had an attack while boarded. The attacks got worse, and the injections less effective, until the day they didn't work at all. She was 3 years old, and died on the way to the vet before she could be put into oxygen. :(

    I kind of thought so.

    I actually haven't seen him drinking a lot. The wee-wee pads were dry, unless of course he's using places I have yet to discover. :rolleyes: But there was a good size clump of urine as well as some man-size stools in his litter box this morning. He's eating, but he's not wild about minced or paté in any brand. Well, too bad Fatboy, get used to it. :D

    I just got a call from one of the other doctors at my usual vet. office. She OK'ed the release of his exam results. She said by all means get a 2nd opinion. I've actually worked mostly with her for 10-12 years. Why I didn't make the last appt. with her is a mystery to me. Anyway, we talked for a while. I asked her point blank, saying I understood if she didn't want to answer, why did the other doctor explain things to me the way she did, gave me two horrible choices (actually no choice), and so on. She said the reason for not giving the shot of insulin was because we hadn't worked up a plan. Doing one shot without any follow up plan would do nothing. I said, but all I had to go on was that it was going to cost me "thousands", up to $1,000 a month, what with insulin being $300, and monthly trips for a battery of tests. Quite honestly that made me think because I couldn't afford that, my only choice was to watch him die. She said nooo, that's not the way it works at all. She said, as some of you said, initially it can be expensive for the tests, but once we start doing the home testing and injections, it's not all that expensive, with only occasional office visits once he's stable. Well #*@%$!^ why didn't the other doctor phrase it and frame it that way? :banghead: So now I don't know whether to be relieved or even more peed off! Anyway, she said the food change was a good first step, and that many cats can go into remission. I knew I should have seen her, but it is what it is.
     
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  57. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    I'm glad you still have a good relationship with that vet anyway....and now you know to stay away from the other one.

    I had a cat only two years old have what I assume was a heart attack on Thanksgiving day 2001. We were over my in laws (Taime always came with us.... He liked to travel between houses.). Relatives were over... Hadn't even eaten yet when he collapsed. I tried to give him cpr but it didn't work. Needless to say the holiday was ruined for everyone.

    A few months later I ran into the family that gave him to us (got him from Rockstar Sebastian Bach believe it or not) and his wife said that my cats mother died when she was only 3.... They assumed a neighbor must have poisoned her.... But I think it was a genetic heart problem. He was an awesome cat. One of the worst days of my life when he died.
     
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  58. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Yes, she's the one that usually sees the dogs. She was fantastic when my Toby was dying of CRF. After Toby died I got a flower arrangement and a card from the her.

    It was horrible when Misty died on the way to the vet. She was in her carrier in the back seat, she cried, then stopped. I knew what that meant. When I got to the office the office manager brushed everyone aside saying "out of the way, emergency" (I had called ahead). I walked in slowly and said "don't rush". She said "oh no!" and she started crying.
     
  59. Julia & Bandit (GA)

    Julia & Bandit (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    With the exception of Bandit's current vet, I've had to provide information about feline diabetes and be adamant with them about the treatment path I wanted to take with Bandit. Most cats on the right diet (low carb, canned), the right insulin (Lantus or Levemir), and dose adjustments via home testing go into remission. Bandit's been diabetic for over 8 years now, and the vast majority of that time he's been perfectly healthy.

    Food doesn't have to be expensive or prescription. Any food under 10% carbs will do. Bandit ate Fancy Feast, Wellness, and Sheba Pates for many years. I'm a little choosier with foods now that he's older and we need to support his kidneys with a low phosphorus diet as well, but there's always a better commercial alternative for every prescription food. I feed Bandit and his brother Orpheus premium canned foods, and it's still way cheaper than the prescription foods and much better quality.

    As Chris mentioned, you can order Lantus from Canada with a script from your vet, and I would definitely get the pens. You use them with a syringe still (and treat them like mini-vials) and they'll last you a year or more. The cost of a pack of pens is about $170 after shipping. A box of syringes is $13 at Walmart.

    If you're testing at home, you don't need a fructosamine test. It's useful for diagnosis but nothing else, and you can get the same information by testing at home and average the results. Bandit never got a fructosamine for diagnosis--they did a BG test in his full blood panel, and then a urinalysis and daily home testing confirmed. The vet may want you to get a full blood panel and/or urinalysis to start, and with a potential UTI on board I understand that--but it shouldn't cost more than $300-$400.

    It depends on what kind of meter you get for how much home testing will cost, but I would say I was spending about $15 a week on test strips when Bandit was on insulin? We test less frequently when he's not on insulin, which is most of the time.
     
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  60. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Have you started home testing yet?

    With him improving so markedly (grooming/not sitting over the water bowl/no more accidents) I wonder what was going on with Christian.

    If you already have your home testing going and can get some data from home (in a non-stressful) environment it will really help the direction of your second opinion.

    If Christian is diagnosed diabetic, showing your new doc the results of your home tests will show you are committed to home care and show the doc you know what you're doing.

    The big ball of urine is a really good sign on the urinary concerns.

    Fabby isn't a real big fan of the pates either, she really wants the carb loaded ones with gravy (can't say I blame her, lol). I do add a bit of filtered water to her pate and mix it up so it's pate gravy. That seems to do the trick, lol. She gets her "gravy" without the carbs.
     
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  61. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    I haven't started testing yet. I don't know what I'm waiting for, except some stupid idea that I need to see the vet first. :cool: I'll check Walgreen's since there's no Walmart nearby, believe it or not.

    I don't know what possessed me to say earlier that he was eating Blue Wilderness canned, except for being that out-of-touch with reality. The dry he was eating was Blue Indoor dry (the dogs eat Wilderness canned and dry). His canned food was Hill's Science Diet Tender Tuna Dinner Adult Canned. It's not even listed in the food chart, but other Hill's varieties have carbs ranging from 19-30%.

    I may have jumped the gun about no more accidents. His litter box was clean this morning, it looks like he used a pad, and I found a deuce on the rug. If he has an infection he's probably associating the litter box with discomfort. I won't know until I get home tonight to see if he used the litter box.

    I though about adding a bit of water to the pate, but it looks like it's a matter of the flavor. He doesn't like salmon. I gave him Fancy Feast Classic Ocean Whitefish & Tuna Feast, which he gobbled up. The Chicken Feast is his next favorite. But he went absolutely bat**** crazy for Wilderness Wild Delights Chicken & Turkey in Gravy. The food chart shows it at 10% carbs. I wanted to stay below that, around the % FF has.

    I hope it's not just my imagination, but he seems to have plumped up. He's doing some of his normal things, like constantly jumping up and down from the table (but using his step stool, which he thinks makes him all-that). I don't know if he can jump from the floor to the table because he's using the step stool, He's talking up a storm demanding his food, doing his regular house patrol. He went from 0-60 in .0315 seconds at the sound of a can opening, did his normal pushing and rubbing on my legs while I was fixing his dish. And all the while hollering at me, of course. He's sitting and laying better. Last week he would stretch out on the floor and looked like he was trying to get comfortable. Now he's back to reclining leisurely (ah, the life!), and even twitches his tail while he's lying down. When he walks (which looks normal) his tail is straight up. When I take a shower I leave the bathroom door open a crack so it doesn't get too steamy. Guess who popped in, checked to make sure everything was up to code, and left. He hasn't been purring, but I thought he did this morning. I also saw him do a quick grooming.

    Of course we're watching him like a hawk, but the way he was this morning, you'd have never thought we had a crisis. If his b.g. comes down I hope the vet tells me he won't need insulin, and that the food change and weight management will control his diabetes.

    So that's a quick, long-winded (wait wut, "quick, long-winded"? o_O) update.
     
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  62. Lillie

    Lillie Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2017
    Jainarayan- My kitty went into remission with a food change and a weight loss. Although he is in the higher end of normal he is far from needing insulin now. I agree with what everyone says here that when a curve is done in a vet hospital situation they almost always dose at higher levels due to the stress causing higher BG readings. It happened with my kitty and he ended up with a minor hypo when I brought him home because his dose was too high. Very important to home test to see what the kitty is reading in a non stress environment. Good luck- I really hope the diet change is effective for you and Christian.
     
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  63. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks, me too! :)
     
  64. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Science Diet Tender Tuna is on the food chart and is listed as 24% carbs for small cans and 25% carbs for big cans. That is too high to try and get Christian to be a diet controlled. Are you worried about the quality of Fancy Feast or Friskies? Does he not like pate? We'd love to hear he can be diet controlled but with those carbs, it is less likely. You want to aim for less than 10% carb foods :)
     
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  65. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    The Wal-greens brand meter and strips are comparable to the Walmart brand, so that's just fine. At least with a bit of home testing in advance you'll be able to recognize if there's a big jump at the vet or to know what's normal.
    Let us know if you need help, videos, or advice when you start to get your home numbers!
     
  66. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Very cool, thanks. :)
     
  67. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Fancy Feast or Friskies or 9Lives is fine, no problem with them. I was actually surprised that "supermarket" brands are better than the more expensive brands. I knew Science Diet had to be in the 20s because it's not even on the food chart. I think I read somewhere that Dr. Pierson left out a number of Hill's products because they were so high. I suppose the ones not listed are to be particularly avoided. He's not eating the Hill's at all anymore, not since last weekend. It's not so much the texture of the pate, but the salmon flavor he didn't like. He liked the Fancy Feast Classic Ocean Whitefish & Tuna, Fancy Feast Classic Chicken Feast, and the Blue Buffalo Wilderness Wild Delights Chicken. Blue Buffalo is just at 10%. He'll get the Blue Buffalo, Fancy Feast, and I'll try some flavors of Friskies and/or 9Lives. I'll see which ones he likes.
     
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  68. Yong & Maury GA

    Yong & Maury GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Good luck! :cat:
     
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  69. TempestsMum

    TempestsMum Guest

    That's sounding promising :) quite a change from the start!

    Definitely stick with the lower carb food for sure! You could reduce the carb count of the wilderness one by only mixing a couple of tbs in with what he's eating so it has the flavour but at 10% carbs I would only do that as a special treat and never the whole thing straight. :cat:
     
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  70. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    I was thinking the same thing about mixing them to dilute the carbs. In fact that's what I did tonight. The whole amount was the equiv. of a 3 oz. can, which he devoured. He left only a little bit. If he's hungry later I'll give him more.
     
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  71. Delores7

    Delores7 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Welcome Jainarayan & Christian! My cat was diagnosed just a week ago and my vet gave very bad dosing advice that I wouldnt have known about if it wasnt for the awesome pple here! A week ago i knew nothing about diabetes and now i know I can do this!They have walked me and Casey literally step by step thru a scary confusing time; I would be totally lost w/o this site.You have found the right place for you and Christian! My best to you both:cat:
     
  72. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks. :) I've certainly learned a heck of a lot in the past few days. The reassurance is priceless.
     
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  73. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Just another update (I promise I won't do this every day :D). Or if there's a journals section I missed I'm cool with staff moving it.

    He found a new toy! It's the strip torn off from the dogs' dry food bag. I saw him poking at it, so I picked it up and started waving it. He went nuts batting at it and grabbing it because it wiggles. I attached it to the string of one of his hanging toys, like a banner.

    Here he is eating his second dish this morning. Each dish was the equiv. of a little more than a small can (Blue and FF mixed).

    IMG_6118.JPG IMG_6119.JPG

    He used the litter box to poop, but he still uses the wee-wee pads. His fur acually looks better in person than in these pics.
     
  74. TempestsMum

    TempestsMum Guest

    I love seeing updates! :)

    He's just gorgeous, under the chin scritches from me! :cat:
     
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  75. Delores7

    Delores7 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Awww he is so lovely...what a sweet guy he is. I know when my cat started wanting his tummy scratched the other day he was feeling some better.He hadnt done that in almost 3 weeks so it was a good sign on his part:cat:
     
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  76. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks. I'm glad your furball is doing better too. Most of the time this guy's very mushy but other times he can be a real jerk and a brat, I mean really cranky. Things are usually on his terms. He developed a bad habit of hissing and growling really badly at the dogs when they came back from the groomer or the vet's office. And he started peeing where he shouldn't have. The doctor put him on fluoxetine, which put the hissing and growling to a stop. He was grooming his belly last night, which I haven't seen him do in a while.

    The last time (before this trip) we went to the vet she said he has FORLs and recommended complete tooth extraction. According to the article: Clinical signs of TRs are often minimal since the discomfort can be minor. However, some authors have described discomfort while chewing, anorexia, dehydration, weight loss, and tooth fracture. Maybe that is part of his current condition. She said she discovered it after combing out the mats. She asked if I'd go for sedating him to comb him out, so I said yes. His fur looked terrible, it would mat seasonally, after winter, I could only do so much combing before he wanted to rip my face off. After the vet combed him out he looked great.

    She put him on buprenorphine (I've since stopped it, but maybe that was a mistake) and said his fur got matted because his mouth is so painful. I asked how was he able to eat. She said cats don't chew, they swallow their food without chewing. I think he wasn't grooming himself partly because he's lazy, and maybe he was too fat to reach, as she said. Since she combed out the mats I can keep on top of his fur, I comb and brush him every other day or so. He actually likes it now... to a point. I know when to back off and pick up at a later time. But when I do it, I pick up the comb and say "Christian, comb? We do comb?" and he comes running. When it had some of his fur on it I let him sniff it so he knew it was his alone.

    Those are the other things I want to bring up with the new vet. I know it sounds like I neglect him, but he really is a tough customer, and not the most compliant patient.
     
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  77. Delores7

    Delores7 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    Doesnt sound like you neglect him at all.i would say you are a very good concerned furdaddy.:cat: I dont know much about forls but was reading an atrticle on full mouth extraction and one responder said his kitty was doing awesome afterwards,but i know each cat and circumstances are different.I had a cat once that didnt like to be brushed for over 30 seconds. My cat Casey loves the ZoomGroom brush by Kong.Its soft rubber with large gentle 'teeth' that cant scratch skin like some brushes.Maybe Christian doesnt like his brush? hehe
    I wish you both all the best with the new vet!
     
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  78. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Thanks, and you know I'll give an update. :D

    I have a glove that sounds similar to the ZoomGroom. That's what I call the brush. It does a pretty good job, though I use the comb also. He produces enough hair to make another cat. Though one of him is enough. :eek: The palm of the glove has rubber nubs that catch the hair. It's like petting and massaging all in one.
     
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  79. Delores7

    Delores7 Member

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    Jul 13, 2017
    LOL..:D I know what u mean..for a short hair cat its crazy how much they can shed...your brush sounds so similar... I guess Christian:cat: is just a cat who doesnt like to be brushed alot..
     
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  80. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    This is the place for updates! And we'll, anything cat.
    If you do end up on insulin, the brand of insulin board might be better to get advice on dosing and procedure, as different insulins can be different.
    The one thing that people aren't prepared for is needing help through a hypo event. If one happens don't post it on this thread, start a new one. There's a prefix box where you put your title, use the 911 one. It will get you help right away as a hypo event is an emergency situation. (Which I hope you never need.)

    So keep the updates coming.

    Playing is a good sigh! That's wonderful!
    I have a non-diabetic cat who's long hair. I could brush him every day and he still gets mats. If he doesn't let me brush enough (like your boy, mine's in control) and I can't keep up with the mats, he gets shaved into a lion. He's currently a lion. This summer was hard with focusing more on Fabby and her diabetes. Poor Seamus just didn't get as much attention as I'd like. The first time we shaved him like a lion he was so mad at us. Like the Samson and Delilah story - we cut his hair and stole his power. This time though, he was so happy to be shaved (not the actual shaving part, but to be without the extra fluff). I guess he figured out his power isn't stored in his fur... and he is rockin' the lion!
     
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  81. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Great to know, thanks.

    :D I'm thinking that if his fur ever gets so badly matted again, I'll go for having him shaved. I'm sure he'll have to be sedated.
     
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  82. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

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    May 9, 2017
    Seamus is pretty easy going, but when he's done with something he's done. So shaving is a 2 person job, and sometimes a 2 day job, lol.
     
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  83. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    I have a cat that won't let me brush her AT ALL. I've been brought her to a groomer a couple times when I just couldn't get the mats out without risking bodily injury. Lol
     
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  84. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    We're home now from our appt. for the 2nd opinion. The doctor and her assistants were great. They asked a lot of questions about Christian's behavior, what I noticed and when, and took a lot of notes.

    Anyway, his b.g. is indeed high, 388, but she said if he has a uti, that discomfort coupled with the stress of the visit could jack his b.g. up. He gained some weight, only about 100 g, but she said it's better than losing. She was very pleased he's eating the way he is, not drinking excessively and is acting normally. A couple of times he did a standing jump from the floor to the table. He still prefers the stepstool, the lazy sot. :D

    So the doctor's not saying he doesn't have diabetes, but she's not yet convinced he does. She'll know more when she runs his blood work and urinalysis this week, and whether he'll need insulin or not.

    Instead of hitting me all at once with a $600 bill for lab work like my regular vet wanted to do (or the option to watch him die) she recommended step by step, especially because of the costs. For example, she said the fructosamine test is not necessary right now.

    So the tests we'll do this week come to $214; today's visit, b.g, test and specimen was $218. My regular vet would have had me at $742 all in one shot includinf the fructosamine. When and if it comes to it she'll teach me how to take his b.g. reading and give him the shots.

    She recommends Fancy Feast, as you all did, and gave me a list. I told her I already started him on it and stopped the Hill's Science Diet canned and dry food. She said that is great, the way to do it. :)
     
  85. Delores7

    Delores7 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2017
    :bighug:Sounds like you found a keeper of a vet.So glad it went so well for u both and that Christian is feeling better!:cat:
     
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  86. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    I think that at least for Christian I will stick with this one.
     
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  87. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Btw, I told her he's not using the litter box. I said I put wee-wee pads where he goes. She asked how far away from the litter box did he start going. I said other rooms, the bathroom and a corner of the living room. She said he'd do that if he does have a uti and associates it with the litter box.
     
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  88. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

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    May 9, 2017
    I'm so glad your u took him in. Urinary problems can get really bad really fast.
    When do you get the results of the tests?
     
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  89. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Probably the end of the week. I told her that unfortunately I have to wait due to $$ concerns. :( I asked how long the specimens are good for. She said 1 week. I asked if waiting would be a problem for Christian, of course I'm worried. She said no he's not in any distress, just keep him on his diet and watch. But if I can see my way clear I'll call her to run the tests sooner.
     
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  90. TempestsMum

    TempestsMum Guest

    That's fantastic news! Really happy you got that second opinion and found a good vet, that one sounds like a keeper! :)
    Will be waiting to hear an update on how it all goes with the bg and test results.
     
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  91. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    Just a bit of an update...

    Christian did wee-wee in the litter box this morning! It was a decent amount, his usual. This was the first time in about 2 weeks. I was so happy I almost cried (meh, I'm a big mush, so sue me :D). He's been using it to poop, but not to wee-wee. Whatever was bothering him that he wasn't doing wee-wee in it has stopped, at least for now. I did not make a big deal of it with him, in fact I ignored it. I didn't want him to think it was something special (well, to me it was).

    He's back to doing his usual kooky things, like playing with his tail. He swats at it, grabs it, bites it then runs off screaming and hissing; he's talking a blue streak; sacking out in his usual spots; running to me when I come in the door; eating like a long-haul trucker; his coat even looks better.

    He seems to love Fancy Feast.We're feeding him 3, occasionally 4 times a day... b'fast, lunch, dinner. The 4th time is usually 1/2 can for a snack if he starts begging. In short, you wouldn't think there was anything wrong with him 2 weeks ago. I 'm waiting for the results of his tests. I should have them in a day or so. I'm anxious to see what they show.
     
  92. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2017
    The doctor called this afternoon with Christian's results.
    • Blood glucose was 400ish.
    • Fructosamine was about 540. She said the range is about 120-450. I may have misheard the actual numbers but she said it was higher than it should be.
    • Red & white blood cell counts were normal.
    • Urinalysis showed some glucose but no infection or ketones.
    • No indication of a crystals problem.
    • Lipids were good.
    • Thyroid was good.
    • Slightly elevated liver enzymes. She mentioned a couple of reasons for it but she wasn't concerned.
    In short, everything was normal exception his sugar. He's definitely diabetic, but whether he needs insulin remains to be seen. She wants me to get keto/glucose sticks to test his urine instead of testing his blood at this point. She wants me to start this asap and let her know what they show.

    She asked how he is doing. I told her he eats, plays, jumps, talks, etc. But he used the wee-wee pad this morning instead of the litter box. She said that's the diabetes but was glad to hear he's better than he was. She said the food is a big help.

    She asked if I'd be able to give him shots if he needs them. She won't be able to demonstrate on him because he doesn't like being at the hospital. That's a gross understatement. As long as he doesn't fight me I can do it. I used to give my Misty shots of epinephrine and depomedrol for her acute asthma attacks.

    So that's where we are now.
     
  93. JanetNJ

    JanetNJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2016
    Definitely time to start insulin. The sooner the better.
     
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  94. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Definitely needs insulin. Urine sticks are not accurate enough to base dosing on. It only proves his blood glucose is high and spilling out.

    Ketone urine test is something to start. Anything over a trace amount needs attention. You can pick them up at any pharmacy.

    My opinion is finish removing the dry food, start home testing and insulin quickly before it's gets out of hand.
     
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  95. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Yeah, it's probably going to be this week when I see her. I should start practicing the skin pinch on him before using the actual syringe to get him used to it. If I have to take blood from his ears he's already used to me playing with them.
     
  96. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Start a routine now. Find a spot to use for testing. Get him there at the times you will test, pet him, play with ears. Even turn meter on so he gets use to the beep, or turn beeps off. Then say (until you actually do) "stick or poke" apply pressure like you will after actual stick, praise him and give low carb treat. Do it twice a day at the times you will do it. This will give you a good head start.
     
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  97. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    He's been off dry for two weeks, eating only canned. I stopped it immediately, the day we saw our regular vet.

    I used to use keto/glucose sticks when I did a cyclic keto diet for myself. Everyone I knew who used them was obsessed with being "kicked out" of ketosis. Every pharmacy I passed today was closed by the time I got there. I'll get the sticks tomorrow.
     
  98. Olive & Paula

    Olive & Paula Well-Known Member

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    Sep 6, 2015
    In this case you do NOT want ketosis for Christian.
     
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  99. Jainarayan

    Jainarayan Member

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    Jul 23, 2017
    Agreed, definitely not something I want to see for him! He's diabetic, I never was.
     
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  100. AlphaCat

    AlphaCat Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2017
    Please start home testing for glucose tomorrow.
    Your cat is diabetic.
    You're about to make decisions on dosing insulin (or no insulin) on numbers that are the least accurate if you're not testing at home. And while I'm sure you will eventually get to the right place with dosing that could take a long time and only Christian suffers for it in the mean time. Having the dosing determined by the fuctosamine is downright dangerous as that's an average over 2-3 weeks. What's happened over the last few weeks, well, there's multiple trips to the vet, and a diet change... These are not even close to an accurate picture of what is going on with your cat right now.
    Even if your vet does a blood draw in office to determine dosing on your next visit, Christian is stressed out at a place he doesn't like. That number won't be accurate.
    Please, please begin home testing. Gather data, so when you get to the vet you can make an informed decision that is as close to accurate as possible for Christian and his health. I can not stress this more. Bouncing is detrimental to diabetes regulation, hypo events are life threatening, and these things are always better with monitoring at home.

    I'm sorry if I come across as preachy, I've been here over the last few weeks waiting for Christian's concerns to be resolved and a plan made, I'm invested. The diagnosis has come in, and this time it's trustworthy.
    It's time to start testing, today if possible. I hate that your vet told you it wasn't necessary. I also hate that they did a fructosamine, when glucose could have been measired right there in office with a cheap meter. It was a waste of your money, and you've already been had by the previous vet.
    The sooner you begin gathering info, the better care your boy will be able to receive. And that's all I'd like for your sugar-cat. If you need help, we're here.
     
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