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Need some help

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Jenny reyes, Oct 2, 2019.

  1. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    Hello I need some help with my cat she is on vetslin and I need some advice and I’m new to this I have been trying to figure out how to post on this site I can post of face book a little easier I guess that is what happens when you have kids ur brain dose not work as well as it once did
     
  2. Panic

    Panic Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2019
    Hi Jenny, what do you need help with?
     
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  3. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Welcome Jenny! To better help you we need some more info. Tell us what insulin dose, what your kitty’s eating, if you are home testing (highly recommended), and if she has any other medical problems.
     
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  4. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    hello elizabeth can i send you a message on facebook? or new converstation private?
     
  5. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    she has i think alot of health problems but both the vets i went to where not good and didnt help me at all she is on vetsluin and i did right know she is on merrick wet food and im about to swtich her to ezcomplete she has alot of things going on and i have already spend twice going to the vet over 600 dollars with no help it is really hard so her sugar levels are better but still high i give her insluin twice a day morning and after noon this morning her sugar was 127 i did not give her inslun because i was worried it would go to slow her last blood work was very bad someone told me she was prob in stage for of kidney, along with pancreatitis problems i have her blood work from july but i honeslty dont have any money to take her to the vet at the money she has been throwing up so i have been giving her pepicad aic 1/4 a pill every nite with her food along with non flushsing niacinamide 100mg a twice a day she still has some vomting problems but not as bad as they where i didnt feed her throw out the nite like i had been becuase i felt that it might be part of her problem why her sugars are still around 300 she did gain some wight but not much im trying my best to help her out
     
  6. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Hi Jenny, we can help you with Phoebe. First, would you please create your signature so that we can see all of your cat's info right away when you post?

    Setting up your signature (light grey text under a post). Here's how:
    click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
    click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
    type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

    We encourage home testing so that you know the blood sugar is high enough to inject, and so that you can see how the insulin is working throughout the cycle between shots.

    I checked back through previous posts because I thought I remembered your name. On 8/23 you posted:
    Hello my cat is on vetslin 3 units twice a day I started
    Doing home testing this morning her bs sugar was 348 before testing or giving her food or her insulin she is on Merrick pate wet food and she has been eating 2 cans a day she seems perky and is doing better I think
    Then on the Main Health forum same day, 8/23
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/my-cat-phoebe.218482/

    Meridith & Zeke started a thread for you in the Vetsulin forum. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-momma-experienced-people-please-look.218478/

    So, it appears that you are home testing and it would be very helpful for you to set up the spreadsheet so we can see what's going on with Phoebe and offer appropriate advice:

    You will see how the trends and patterns emerge, and members can review her progress before offering suggestions or advice:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/fdmb-spreadsheet-instructions.130337/
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/understanding-the-spreadsheet-grid.156606/

    If you are not able to set the spreadsheet up, someone here can do it for you. Just let us know.

    Putting your concerns, questions and issues out on the public forum is going to get experienced eyes on your posts. This is a peer reviewed group and if someone gives you inaccurate or incomplete information, someone is going to catch that and everyone then gets the benefit of correction.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  7. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    i also have a spreedsheet too of her blood sugar levels as well
     
  8. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    this is very hard im totally confused
     
  9. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    It's ok to be confused, this is a whole new ball game and it's a learning process. Where is your spreadsheet? Did you follow the spreadsheet instructions and set it up back in August?
     
  10. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    Are you working from a cell phone, a tablet or a computer?
     
  11. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    someone helped me on facebook created so i have it on my phone
     
  12. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    computer
     
  13. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    actually someone names Chris was helping me on facebook she set it all up for me
     
  14. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    oh good, that means the spreadsheet is in Google Docs, and you are using Google Sheets to edit and add information. Great that you are able to use a computer, much bigger screen to work with. We know Chris very well, and if you will just follow the directions for the signature, we can get Chris to add the spreadsheet link to your signature so we can see it too. OK?
     
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  15. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    ok sounds great
     
  16. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    just trying to help my baby out she is still so skinny it has been hard for me to try and figure this thing out
     
  17. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Then we can get eyes on all the issues and concerns you are dealing with and start work on solving some problems.
     
  18. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    how do i add it here?
     
  19. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    and if you want to see her blood work from july im happy to post it as well
     
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  20. Panic

    Panic Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2019
    It's a little hard to follow what you're saying without any punctuation. Like Lou (Idjit's Mom) said, getting your signature and spreadsheet up will help us to help you. :)
     
  21. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    First, please create the signature:

    click on your name in the upper right corner of this page
    click on "signature" in the menu that drops down
    type the following in the box that opens: kitty's name/age/date of diabetes diagnosis/insulin you're using and dosage amount /glucose meter you're using/what (s)he eats/any other meds or health issues (s)he has. You can add your name, and a geographic location (sometimes the country/time zone matters) Be sure to SAVE when you are finished.

    Then we will help you with getting the spreadsheet link into the signature. @Chris & China (GA) is a whiz and can do this for you, so it's a little less stress for you. (Thanks in advance Chris) also tagging @Marje and Gracie for help if Chris is not available in the immediate future.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  22. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Do post her bloodwork
     
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  23. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    so do u want me to post her stuff in the about section ?
     
  24. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
  25. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    this is her blood work in july this year sorry i think i posted some double ones
     
  26. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    i can tell you all that info im not sure where to put all that info im so sorry
     
  27. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    That’s ok on the doubles, we’ve all done that before:rolleyes: Can you get a clearer pic of the first two pages? It’s hard to read the numbers.
     
  28. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Jenny, when you have finished the signature, please tell us the variety of the Merrick food Phoebe is eating. I looked it up on the food chart and there are three varieties: Backcountry, Limited Ingredient and Purrfect Bistro.

    I want to see what the carbohydrate percentage is. I read that you are going to transition Phoebe to the EZ Complete, that's FoodFurLife, right? That's what I use and I will tell you right up front, it's a long, very gradual transition..you can't just change over without tempting some tummy troubles. I jumped the gun with Idjit and I was chasing him around trying to clean the diarrhea off his pantaloons. Neither one of us liked that.
     
  29. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    yes im going to twice but i will do it slowly with her food she seemed to really enjoy it with merrick i only got 2 kinds and her sugar has been to high so have to go back to the other 2 that she was on she was eating the salmon and chicken , this time i bought the Thanksgiving Day Dinner, and the Granny's Pot Pie
     
  30. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    with the blood work it is at my house will repost it when i get home tonite :)
     
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  31. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    sorry still confused on where to put the signautre stuff lol i guess that is what happends when u have kids
     
  32. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    Scroll up to the top of this page, see your name? Click on it, on the left is Personal Details, right under that is signature. Put the info in there.
     
  33. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    where it saids about you?
     
  34. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    No, that's in the Personal Details area. Look right below Personal Details on the menu, select Signature
     
  35. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    okay i think i did it
     
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  36. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    my cats name is phoebe she is 15 bday 3/4/04 i had her since she was born day 1 bottle feed her she is diabetic she is on vetsluin has been since jan of 2019 she eats merrick and im gonna swtich to ezcomplete. she is on 2 units on vetsluin twice a day

    Jen, not trying to be hard case, but you are going to want to have room for the spreadsheet link too, as well as adding other info later on.

    May I suggest you edit the signature to this, or something like:
    Phoebe, female 15 y.o., DX 1/19, Vetsulin 2 U BID, Merrick pates, switching to FFL EZComplete, (tell us here what kind of meter you are using, does she have kidney issues like kidney disease or CKD chronic kidney disease?)

    You can use the personal details area (About you) to tell more about you and Phoebe, there is just so little space allowed in the signature and we need to see as much as possible when you post. Thanks dear.
     
  37. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    ok thank u i fixed it
     
  38. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    Good, what kind of meter are you testing blood sugar with, we need to know the brand like ReliOn Prime, or One Touch Ultra etc.
    Has she been diagnosed with kidney disease, is that the reason that you are changing the diet to EZ Complete?
     
  39. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    i did speak with someone who told me with her numbers begin so high she was possbily at stage 4 i also just put her meter in she is on the prime meter
     
  40. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    Ok, now we are cooking. Thank you for editing the signature.

    Sharon14 told me that the Merrick food is very high in phosphorus, and that's not good for kidney issues..you are right to be concerned. As I said the FFL EZ complete takes a long time..you introduce only a tsp one time a day..to one meal. I think we better hold off on that and get Phoebe on a much lower phosphorus and low carb canned food before you transition to the EZ Complete. Or get her on a phosphorus binder supplement. I would like to get the members who are more experienced with this issue chiming in on this. I don't have a lot of experience here and can't offer much at the moment.

    Let me do some research and find some members that know about phosphorus binders etc. OK?

    Also, are you doing subQ fluids?
     
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  41. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    no fluids because the vets i have been seeing where not helping me and at the moment i dnt have another 300 to go to get it all worked out because neither vets know what they where doing
     
  42. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    i was told the naicinamide blocks appox 40% of the phos so i didnt need to do the binder that was on a different site that i was talking to someone about it thanks for all the help
     
  43. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Here are some low carb/low phosphorus foods for until you get Phoebe transitioned to the FFL EZComplete.
    Organix grain free chicken
    Pro Plan Focus Urinary Tract Formula Turkey
    Weruva Paw Lickin’ Chicken
    Weruva Steak Frites
    My cat loved the Proplan Focus and it’s pretty affordable.
     
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  44. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    my cat chocked on the wervua so i stopped giving it to her but she loves cooked chicken anytime anywhere
     
  45. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Apr 3, 2018
    I was looking here: http://felinecrf.org/phosphorus.htm
    and we can ask others who are dealing with this issue for input too. I just read this:
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/diabetes-ckd-combo-food-question.219858/#post-2451843
    a post by Priya & Missy:
    For the phosphorus you can lower it quickly with Niacinamide (Jarrow brand on amazon). 250 mg twice a day and retest in 2 weeks. It brought my cat’s phosphorus down from 6.1 to 4.6 in 2 weeks and now I have her on a maintenance dose of 125 mg twice a day and she’s still able to eat high phos foods like Friskies and FF

    I am not advocating this, it's just something I have found. @Marje and Gracie is the one that reads the labs well and can interpret better. Please try to flatten out the lab results sheets and photograph more closely so they can be read easier..I was not able to read most of them..old eyes or rotten eyesight..sigh
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2019
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  46. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Did you start the niacinimide after the July bloodwork, or before?
     
  47. Darnell & Sprocket (GA)

    Darnell & Sprocket (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Mar 13, 2015
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  48. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Jenny

    I’m going to send you a private message so I can put your SS link in your signature block. I just need some info.

    I will also look at the labs for you later today.
     
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  49. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    All she has to do is copy that link, go to the signature, type Phoebe's SS, highlight it and choose the link icon (looks like a chain link) in the formatting/function bar at the top) and when the window opens, paste the link and click "insert".

    Thank you for helping her Darnell, you are an angel.
     
  50. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    yes thank you so much if i did not have chris and darnell helping me out like the both have i woud have prob lost my baby already thank you to both of u
     
  51. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    no i only started a few week ago i think but it is a much lower dose it is at 100 mg twice a day per someone i was talking to till i can get her to the vet
     
  52. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    SS is now attached. More later but I’m not at home so I’ll post in the labs when I get there.
     
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  53. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    Thank u everyone for all ur help
     
  54. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    This is her blood work I hope you guys can see it better
     

    Attached Files:

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  55. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Yes, much clearer! Marje will be around soon to look at them.
     
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  56. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    Thank u I’m have been very worried about her
     
  57. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    Thanks for posting better photos.

    The gold standard for treating CKD is Tanya’s Comprehensive Guide to Feline CKD. As you will see there, there is a lot to learn and a lot of “moving parts” to CKD.

    While there are several things that can be addressed, to me, you need to triage this and focus on getting that phosphorus down. It’s really the highest I’ve seen for where her other kidney-related numbers are. Phosphorus levels are tied to longevity so getting them down and keeping them down are critical. Right now, she is way past the number for calcification of tissues. If you multiply P x Ca, the total should be less than 70 and hers is over 180. Since her Ca level is good, the goal has to be the P bring lower.

    Changing the diet will definitely help. The use of niacinamide for treatment of high P is new since my last CKD cat. I do know that some veterinary experts believe niacinamide can be effective in lowering phosphorus levels but that it’s not as good as aluminum hydroxide.

    You’ll need to educate yourself on phosphorus levels and binders. While I’ve always used aluminum hydroxide and been able to keep the P levels normal below 5 in my CKD cats (but not the one that had PKD), it’s much easier to keep them low then to lower than especially from 20. You are going to have to work hard at it and have her retested every few weeks to be sure you are making progress. Because I don’t know everything about her medical history, it’s best for you to read the above links and make sure that there are no contraindications or issues for you to use aluminum hydroxide for her.

    On the bright side, her calcium looks good, her potassium looks good, and her hematocrit looks good for now but you will need to keep an eye on this and you might think about starting her on the appropriate B vitamins to ward off anemia as all CKD cats will become anemic and I’d say it’s the second thing to really target.

    Your vet should also be checking her blood pressure every time she’s there. It’s very common for CKD cats to have high BP and it’s easily addressed.

    Her liver enzymes are a little elevated but it is really, really mild. I’d focus on the CKD and the phosphorus. I know you have limited dollars but getting updated labs will really help you.

    And if you are able to, you might think about giving subq fluids at home. In the video description, I list supplies needed and sources.

    I’m going to be honest with you.....this is going to take a lot of work on your part. It’s a positive sign that she is eating. Please let me know if you have questions.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  58. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2015
    Thanks for your input Marje.
    Jenny, how is Phoebe this AM? Like Marje, I have never seen such high phosphorus numbers. I know you’re transitioning to FFL EZComplete, but as you do, I think you really need to put Phoebe on the low phosphorus canned food.(If she likes pate, try the Proplan Focus I listed above) A blood test to check if the niacinimide is working is important, and some subQ fluids will help Phoebe feel better. If her levels are still high, the phosphorus binder is a must. I have some I could send you if she does need it.
     
  59. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2019
    That would be great if you could I will start the binder as soon as I get it and also her bs level was high too it was around 400 something how do I do the fluids and where do I get them ?
     
  60. Red & Rover (GA)

    Red & Rover (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2016
    https://www.thrivingpets.com/catalog/product/view/id/892/s/aluminum-hydroxide/

    You want to order the powder. The 200 gram jar will last a long time.

    The aluminum hydroxide gel that you can get at the vet contains sugar and therefore not good for a diabetic cat.

    You can read about phosphorus and binders here: https://felinecrf.org/phosphorus_binders.htm
    Do pay attention to the Measuring Phosphorus Binders section. You will be giving a very small amount which needs to be divided and given with food.

    There is a CKD forum you can join. https://tanyackd.groups.io/g/support
     
  61. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    How much binder do I give her when I do get it ?
     
  62. Red & Rover (GA)

    Red & Rover (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 18, 2016
    For that, you would have to read the section listed in my post above. The dosing depends on the weight of the cat and the stage of the kidney disease. Also, if you join the CKD forum, you will have the knowledge and support of the members.
     
  63. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    I also posted all of the info you need in my post 57 above and I already sent you the link to thriving pets for the aluminum hydroxide. Again, I would suggest you order the smallest bottle possible until you know you can get it in her food and she will eat the food with it in it.

    While we are all happy to give you the basic info you need to get you started on helping her with CKD, we are a feline diabetes support group and that’s where our strength lies. The CKD group on FB or Tanya’s support group are the best places to get information on the most up-to-date treatments for CKD.

    Insofar as her diabetes, Vetsulin is a very harsh insulin. It worries me that you are setting her up for symptomatic hypoglycemia by shooting 2u at a BG of 107 with no other tests the rest of the cycle. Her PMPS tells me she went lower than that 107.

    I know dealing with the CKD is extremely important but please don’t neglect the diabetes because it won’t matter how much you do for her CKD wise if she has a symptomatic hypo from which she can’t recover. Diabetes is not “set and forget” so you can’t just keep giving her 2u and only testing at preshot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2019
  64. Darnell & Sprocket (GA)

    Darnell & Sprocket (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015

    Thanks Idjit's Mom. I learned from the best. ❤

    Jenny, Did you get those instruction?
    Can you do it?
    I couldnt...lol.
    Try it....your younger than me with more tech savy than me.
     
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  65. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Sent you a PM
     
  66. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    I already did it for her :)
     
  67. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    Just curious I was told that you can add canned pumpkin to help lower protein levels for the kidney dieases it is 1 lb to each 3 lbs of the patch I can do that with ezcomplete? That was according to one the pre mix raw company’s I was talking to
     
  68. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2018
    You don't actually need to lower protein levels, Jenny. Here is some information I got from the staff at FoodFurLife (EZ Complete)
    *******
    Regarding your question about phosphorus, the typical guidance for phosphorus in earlier stages of CKD is to feed a food that is less than 1% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, or less than 250mg phosphorus per 1,000kcal. EZComplete is both.

    The Veterinary / Rx renal diets typically have phosphorus at lower than AAFCO (which minimum is 0.5% on a dry matter basis). But they achieve this by trading protein for carbohydrates.

    If you want to feed a low carb diet, then yes, raw is your best option. In a traditional raw diet with bone, the phosphorus is over 2% on a dry matter basis. This is because bone is used as the source of calcium - but it is also the largest repository of phosphorus in the body. By removing the bone and replacing it with an alternate source of calcium like eggshell (which is what EZComplete premix powder uses), this alone reduces the food to less than 1% phosphorus on a dry matter basis, typically to 0.8% - 0.9% DMB if using very lean meats. You can lower the phosphorus further by using fattier cuts of meat.

    That said, Laurie has had 5 CKD cats since she transitioned her cats to raw 7 years ago (half of her crew were seniors when they transitioned), and she now has 2 and Carolina has 1. We've both tried feeding low protein in order to lower phosphorus further (because outside of bone, the organs and meat are the source of phosphorus, which is why the Veterinary / Rx renal diets replace meat with carbs). Lowering phosphorus further in a homemade diet is actually quite easy to do with food made with EZComplete by adding fattier cuts of meat, as mentioned above. If you target 15% fat as fed, the food will have about has much phosphorus as the Rx diets (below the AAFCO minimum), and protein will be around 40% on a dry matter basis - not quite as low as the Rx foods, which are around 30%. At about 10% fat as fed (with food made with EZComplete), the protein will be just about 50% on a dry matter basis. BUT. But it turns out that - in our experience - phosphorus really isn't the only consideration in an ideal CKD food, unless your kitty is late stage 4 or in kidney failure. Again, based on our experience.

    We went back to feeding mostly lean meats. Doing extensive research, we learned why our cats do better on the higher protein diet: senior cats need MORE protein, not less. Over time, on the higher fat diet, our cats got weaker in the back end. That's muscle wasting. In a referenced piece by Dr. Mark Peterson, one of the most widely recognized small animal endocrine specialists in the world, he walks through the known needs of senior cats from published studies. It turns out, based on that info, senior cats need a minimum of 53% protein (dry matter basis) to prevent muscle wasting. So we weren't imagining it when our observation was our cats did better on a high protein diet.https://endocrinevet.blogspot.com/2011/11/optimal-protein-requirements-for-older.html

    Dr. Becker has a referenced article on a study conducted in cats, designed to determine if low protein made a difference in CKD. It turns out, protein control does not impact CKD, where phosphorus control does: https://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2018/02/13/feeding-senior-cats.aspx

    So we both feed food made with EZComplete to our cats, using a rotation of chicken breast (lean), chicken thigh (fattier than breast), pork loin (lean), pork shoulder (very fatty), turkey breast (lean) or thigh (fattier), and Laurie uses fatty cuts of beef (chuck beef) and very lean cuts of beef (like top round), and each of us typically feed 2 of 3 meals a day to our cats that are lean, and one that is made with fattier meat.

    What we do is control phosphorus by using a specific form of vitamin B3, niacinamide. Laurie lost her 3 prior CKD cats to problems unrelated to the CKD, and the current two have been completely stable for 1.5 years since diagnosis with this approach. Carolina's CKD cat also has hyper-T, IBD, megacolon and a hiatal hernia, and he's been completely stable for two years. Totally stable! Some of it luck-of-the-draw genetically. But this approach has been serving our kitties well.

    We hope this helps, please let us know if you have any further questions.
    ***********

    I think you can use the phosphorus binder on the canned food you are feeding your cat now, then gradually, as the FoodFurLife website recommends, transition to the meat/EZ Complete diet you probably will not have to use the phosphorus binder. It would be worth your while to visit the FoodFurLife website again, and make sure you understand how to introduce this new food (it takes a long time to do it properly), and ask them if they think you would need a phos binder with the meat/EZ Complete diet.
     
  69. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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  70. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I’m sorry but I really disagree with this statement. Her phosphorus is at 20. EZC is a lower P food but it isn’t, by a long stretch, considered to be low P. You’d have to use a renal diet to get to what is considered to be a low P diet.

    I know Laurie and Carolina very well and they are amazing and awesome. But I have to wonder if they were aware that Phoebe’s P level is so high? I would agree 100% with their advice if the P level was 6 or so and just needed to come down a bit. But for it being 20, that’s dangerously high and I don’t think she’s going to be able to get it down without aggressive treatment using niacinimide and binders. IMHO.
     
  71. sandscout

    sandscout Member

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    Jenny, how is Phoebe doing?
     
  72. Idjit's mom

    Idjit's mom Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I certainly accept that, and the email reply from the FFL staff I posted was to me, not to Jenny. I did recommend that she check with them and see if they would advise using the phos binder with the meat & supplement. Jenny has posted on the FB page since and Chris & China did tell her to use the phos binder with the meat & supplement.
    Withdrawing oar from this stretch of water.
     
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  73. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    Excellent!
     
  74. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    she is okay just here levels on her phosopurs are high and she cant gain weight right due to the diabetes she eats well just has been throwing up
     
  75. Priya&Missy

    Priya&Missy Member

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    Sep 5, 2019
    She needs Niacinamide if her phosphorus is over 8.
    Aluminum hydroxide is not going to bring it down fast enough. The longer she has high phos levels the worse she’ll feel and the faster her ckd will progress.
     
  76. AliceMeowliss&Cassandra

    AliceMeowliss&Cassandra Well-Known Member

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    Jan 8, 2019
    How long has she been throwing up?
    For me personally, this sets off my DKA alarm, especially combined with weight loss, an insulin that does not last very long (like Vetsulin or NPH), the high numbers. Has this been addressed at all yet? I’m just now jumping in and I read from the beginning but maybe I missed something.
     
  77. sandscout

    sandscout Member

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    Hi Jenny, I’m sorry to hear Phoebe is vomiting. Is your Vet willing to prescribe an anti-vomiting drug that might help her, Cerenia is a good one- and an anti-nausea drug such as Ondansetron? They both work really well for vomiting and nausea. I don’t know things like phosphorus levels, but one thing I do know about is vomiting. Check those out if you get a chance. And keep us posted. You and Phoebe are in my thoughts :bighug:
     
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  78. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Thank you
     
  79. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    I just a vet yesterday they did bloodwork and her phosphorus levels have come down a lot so she was getting an infection so they gave her antibiotics and a few other things. This is her blood work
     

    Attached Files:

  80. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jenny! Glad the phosphorus has come down. Can you please repost the bloodwork? It’s very blurry and hard to read
     
  81. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Let me see because the vet sent it to me like that I will ask the vet to resend it and post it again
     
  82. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Is this any better ?
     

    Attached Files:

  83. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Chris told me to leave her food on Merrick and just to add the binders so I just need help with that
     
  84. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    I’m on an iPad and when I zoom in to read it, it gets blurry. It’s also upside down. It make look ok on a desktop though, I don’t know. I can’t remember how to calculate the amount of binder. I think a lot depends on the phosphorus number. I hope @Marje and Gracie will be around to help with that

    How is she feeling?
     
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  85. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019
    She is okay she isn’t not feeling well because of the infection she has eating small amounts right know she is only 5 pounds as soon as her new insulin comes in I hope it will help her with her sugars better
     
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  86. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Antibiotics can make them feel bad too. Since she has and infection and not eating a lot, you should be checking her for ketones daily. You can get the urine test strips at any pharmacy and they are pretty cheap.
     
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  87. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    I can’t read those labs....too tiny :eek:
     
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  88. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Can I email them to u ? I can see them very clear on my email
     
  89. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    If you could, please, just add to her lab tab as we discussed in the PM, then they are there permanently and that helps for futu comparisons.

    Thank you!
     
  90. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    How’s Phoebe? The phosphorus has come way down. Great!
     
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  91. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    She has a bad infections she is been throwing up because of the antibiotics I need to call the vet tommrrow ask them what to do
     
  92. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Ask for some anti nausea meds, like cerenia or ondansatron. Is she eating at all? Have you checked for ketones?
     
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  93. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    I did give her some ondansetron they is help
     
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  94. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    Thanks for loading labs.

    The parameters that are red flag to me are:

    WBCs: which indicate an infection, as you know
    Phosphorus: great improvement but still needs to come down as close to 4.5/as you can
    Potassium: too low, discuss with vet about supplements
    Hematocrit: really trending towards anemia; you should start methylcobalamin and multiB as soon as possible. I posted the link for info about Vitamin B in post #57 above.

    pls let me know if you have questions.
     
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  95. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    thank you
     
  96. Jenny reyes

    Jenny reyes Member

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    Aug 18, 2019


    how much do i give her?
     
  97. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

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    May 30, 2010
    If you read the links I left you, they will tell you. The vet should determine the potassium.
     
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