Need YOUR help please!

I just recently found out my baby girl has diabetes. The first few days she was eating her wet food just fine. But yesterday and today she wont eat it. I still gave her her insulin but it scares me because of the hypoglycemia. I have read on here to water it down, or add some yogurt or parmesan cheese. Is that safe?
I have two other cats, and we leave dry food out for them. The vet said its fine if my cat grazes on it, which I know she does. I cant really test her blood sugars, as the vet has always been once a week. The vet gave me Purina DM wet food and I tried buying a different flavor and mixing it, she had some but still turned her nose up at it. I thought she wasnt picky, HELP!

 

Yes, it is important that she eat. Many cats, mine included, ate Purina DM for a few days and then quit. It is liver based and they get tired of it. I would go buy some different flavors of Fancy Feast (the classic, pâté kinds - not the gravy) and offer her that. The ingredients are as good as the DM and the cost is much less.

We would urge you to test her blood glucose levels at home, so you can see that she doesn't go too low and that it is safe to give insulin in the dose you have planned. We figure we would never blindly give insulin to our 2 legged children; we do the same for our 4 legged ones. We've taught hundreds of people over the Internet and would be glad to teach you.

BTW, she is beautiful!

 

Hi, Victoria,

How is she doing? Can you tell us what her dose is? Any other health problems? Are you able to stay with her all day today at least until 7 hours after the shot?

If you gave her a shot and then she won't eat, feed her anything she will eat -- chicken, bacon, anything she will eat. Even if she eats dry food, its better that she eat something.

Please get your hypo kit ready if you haven't all ready. See http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=15887.

As for food, I have found that when switching a cat's food it is important to mix a little of the new food with the old food, and then a little more new with old, and on and on until the cat is eating only the new food. I spend about 3 or 4 days making the switch. Not only will this help with the cat being picky about something new, but cats are known to get sick from having their food switched suddenly. This happened to my cat years ago before he was diabetic, and I had to shove pills down his throat for about a week or two. Now, I'm more careful because he's so fragile.

Some cats just will not eat DM. Besides, its not as good as some of the other foods people recommend on here because its too high in carbs, and its more expensive anyway. Check out http://binkyspage.tripod.com/index.html. There is a canned food list here that should help you choose a food or two for you cat.

I assume you are home with her -- of course, if you can't get her to eat then stay with her, and if she shows any signs of hypo, you can get her in the car right away. Take the hypo kit with you. You might be sitting in the vet's waiting room and need to give her some syrup.

In the end, it is not okay for her to graze on dry food, but for now you will compensate for it with the insulin. You will want to stop her from eating dry food at all in the future, but just be aware that at that time you may find that the insulin dose is too high for a cat who eats nothing but wet food.

Good luck.

 

See, when I found out she was diabetic, I did some research on the internet and was fully prepared to test her blood sugars at home, but surprisingly enough our vet didnt mention it. She spent the day yesterday at the vet, getting tested every 2 hours to see what her sugars were like. We were only doing 1.5 UI and her sugars stayed at about 20. My vet said the normal range is 4 to 8 (I live in Canada, I dont know if its different elsewhere) so we upped it to 2 UI morning and night.

Ive read that there such thing as testing their urine? Any experiences with it? Id prefer not to have to keep poking her, but I'll do whats needed. I'm going out for a few hours tonight, and Im thinking of locking her in a room with just the wet food and see if she ate any when I get home. Im scared to go out and buy Fancy Feast and her not eat any of that either (I'm a starving student). My mom suggested tuna, is that safe? I'm not sure whats safe or not!

WIth the hypo stuff, would she be OBVIOUSLY drunk walking? I want the best for her, and I'm scared I won't notice any signs. My vet said if she seems drunk to give her some syrup in her lip and she should be fine.
Thank you for all your help!<3

 

We tend to think that cats are likely to test much higher at the vet than at home. (strange noises, people, animals...). So we are concerned when the vet raises doses based on those numbers. We'd rather test and home, send the numbers to the vet and get advice. We suggest starting low (.5 to one unit twice a day) and going slow with the increases. It's better to raise the dose slowly as needed rather than give too much and risk a hypo.

Multiply your numbers by 18 to get US numbers. What insulin are you using?

If she isn't eating, I'd feed her whatever she will eat. Tuna in water is okay. Not as a constant, but for this problem.

She can have a problem with numbers that are too low or too high. Testing will help you figure out how she is doing. Testing the urine will give you an idea of how she was doing hours ago, before the urine worked its way through her body and was tested.

First, get her eating something. Second, start testing her blood glucose levels so you know what is really happening.

 

Not always. There are many common signs of hypo, from subtle signs like being really hungry and whiny to serious signs like seizures. Walking around drunk is one sign and can indicate that the blood glucose level is very very low. Please print out this hypo reference sheet: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1122 It lists some of the more comon signs and how to treat. Also print out this list of things to have on hand in case yoru cat hypos: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2354

Testing your cat's blood glucose levels at home is the most effective way of preventing a hypo. Blindly giving insulin without knowing what the blood glucose level is like driving a car with a bag over your head. It's just dangerous. You don't need the vet's permission to test blod glucose levels at home.

 

In Canada, you have a couple of great, affordable food choices -- Friskies (Pate flavours) and President's Choice (again, the no-gravy flavours) -- I'm also a starving student, and this is what I feed both of my cats now. For low-carb treats to give after testing, most PetValu locations seem to carry various flavours of 'PureBites' treats.

 

Thank you all SO much for your help!

I tried watering down some food last night and this morning, and she ate (YAHOO!) but I am looking into buying some different flavors for her. I did read the food chart, but am wondering how do I decide whats the best? Like what fat percent is too much..etc?

Everything you are saying makes sense about the testing blood sugars. How is your experience with testing? Does it hurt the cat? If I start, how do I give her insulin based on her sugars, like how do I know how much insulin to give?

I admit, I worry about the littlest of things, even when I shouldnt. Thank you for showing me the information about hypo. I am guessing if I keep checking her blood sugars, it would give me an idea if her sugars are too low and getting into the hypo range? Like I'm not then just blinding guessing like I am now.

 

So glad she is eating again! On the food chart, the important part for diabetics are the carb counts. So you want to stay in the 8% carb range. Other than that, whatever she will eat that you can afford.

Your kitty might shy away from the poke at first, but she will learn that the poke come with treats and many cats purr through the process. If you want to get started, you might pick a place where you are planning to do the testing and put her there. Pet and praise her and fool around with her ears a little. Then give her a treat and it's over. Next time the same but add the rice sack and get her used to having her ear warmed (thin sock knotted and filled with raw rice, warmed in microwave until very warm but not hot) Keep that up a while, always treats, adding time with the rice sack. Then all you have left is the actual test and she may have already decided this is a good time with you. If she is difficult, we all have tips that helped us at first.

Testing at home makes you feel so much more in control of this whole sugar dance. Yes, you know before each shot that the dose you were planning is safe (or not safe) to give. And tests mid cycle gives you a good picture of how the insulin is working. Knowing where her blood glucose levels will alert you if she is heading down too fast into low numbers before it turns into a hypo and you can help her go back up with higher carb food or syrup as needed.

Every single one of us was completely overwhelmed at first. But as you learn more, everything starts to make more sense and you feel more confident. Keep asking questions, keep reading. And let us teach you how to hometest!

 

Victoria,

Yea! That's good news.

Sue is so right. We were all overwhelmed at first. There is a lot to learn, and testing is not fun, but neither is having a high blood glucose level. Your cat will get used to it. Just remember that what you are doing is helping her more than a little pin prick hurts. The people on this board will help you through every step.

I suggest that you go back through the other newbies' posts on this Feline Health: the Main FDMB Forum and see what was recommended to them. That way, in case some of those long term members who know so much don't have a chance to chime in here, you will see what they recommended to other new people, too. I found that very helpful. I got a lot of questions answered quickly -- even ones I didn't know I had -- especially ones I didn't know I had.

I'm not familiar with Canada and what's available, but I got my meter from Wal-Mart. It's called a Relion, and it uses only Relion test strips, which are less expensive than other test strips here in the US. That is why I got a Relion -- because the strips are exclusive to the meter for most, if not all meters -- and this keeps the costs down. The Relion keeps a digital record of all the tests, the day of the test, and the time of the test. Most do, I believe.

You can use any lancets you want to, but for newbies it is recommended to use 28 gauge because it is easier to get blood that way. I now use 30 gauge, which are thinner, and easier on the cat. Many people recommend that you use the lancet without the lancet "pen" that comes with your meter. I agree, but I never tried to use the pen.

You will want to set up a spreadsheet. The instructions are here http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207. On this spreadsheet, you will document all the home tests you have taken, and the people on the board will see patterns and help you with problems or dosage. Take a look at anyone's spreadsheet to get the idea. I take notes out to the right side -- about his activity level, eating, drinking, eliminating outside the box, when I give laxatives, changes in food, medicines I give, anything unusual he does like waking me up for food in the middle of the night, changes in the time of the dose (when I miss by 1/2 hour or more). I wish I had kept his weight in these notes, too, from the beginning.

More later.

 

Binky's canned food charts
Pet Food Nutritional Values list
Dr. Lynne's Wet Food list
List of low carb gluten free Fancy Feast

On Binky's charts, stick with foods that have a number 10 or less in the carbs colum. On the Pet Food Nutritional Values Chart, look at the %kcal from carbs column and choose foods that have a number 10 or less.

Fat is not a concern unless your cat is prone to pancreatitis.

The best food to feed is the one that your cat will eat and you can afford and can find in the local stores. Some people here just feed Fancy Feast. Others feed only premium brands.

Nope. Testing does not hurt a cat at all. It will take a little time for most cats to get used to, though, but with lots of treats and praise and patience it can be done :smile: Here are the testing tips: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287

No, you do not base the insulin dose by the blood gluocse number that shows up on the meter after you do a test. What most people here do is start insulin at a particular dose (usually 0.5 or 1 unit twice a day) and test blood glucose levels before giving the insulin. You stick with that dose for at least a week or so regardless of what the blood gluocse level is, the only exception is if the cat's level is under 200 (11 mmol). Once your cat has been given a consistent dose of insulin for a week or so, you do a curve which is testing the blood glucose level approximately every 2 hours for a 12 hours (basically from the morning insulin shot to the evening insulin shot). With the curve numbers you can see how your cat is responding to the insulin and if a dose change is needed. FDMB can help you interpret those numbers and advise on what dose change is needed, if at all. Of course, keep your vet informed of the your cat's blood glucose levels.

Yes, by testing blood glucose levels at home you will know if your cat is heading towards a hypo or if blood glucose levels are still staying high. Hypo is generally around 60 (3 mmol) and below but every cat is different.

I don't think the Relion brand is available in Canada. Just go to the local pharmacy and see what brands of blood glucose meters are available. I think you should be able to find some of the big name brands like AccuChek and OneTouch.

 

Thank you all again! This has made my life SO much easier!

Funnily enough, my brother was over to visit and was cuddling with my baby and had her laying on her back. Surprisingly she stayed there, so I jumped at the opportunity to test her! I watched on youtube both of testing the ear and the paw, and even though I felt bad having to poke her 4 times to test what number I should set to prick her at, and getting enough blood, she did so well! (Such a proud mama!) She came back at 27.6mmol at about 6:15pm. I normally feed her about 7:30pm. Now, no matter what her blood sugars are, I give her the same amount of insulin, am I correct? I'm, in a way, lucky enough that my dad is diabetic, so I can just use his meter and all that jazz.

The spreadsheet is a good idea. I had a look at it though, and all the numbers and stuff make NO sense to me. :S Also, how would I go about looking at someone elses for an example?

 

Yes, the same amount of insulin. We usually hold for a few cycles to let them settle and as you are just starting to test this is the start of getting the data.

At the bottom of our posts are links to the spreadsheets (ss) for the kitties we take care of.

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207

is the link and it explains how to create it and then link it to your signature line.

A few things:
AMPS/PMPS- AM/PM pre shot number (and the start of the cycle)
+1, +2, +3, to +11- that is how many hours after the shot with the next cycle shot being a no #. (Since we are in all sorts of time zones around the world it doesn't make sense to put your shot TIME in there, just how long after shot time you took the test.)
We just put the bg number in the square and you can say +.5 if it was 4:30 and you give your shot on the hour. I've started posting a lot of information in the comments part and it leaves a little orange triangle in the upper right corner. We also keep track of any remarks, food eaten, carb track, ketone testing, special notes such as vet visit or high stress, note strange behavior. You can add as many rows as you want to.
The colors should self populate if all you have in there are numbers- and so we usually say "I've got a blue!" Meaning the BG # was between 100 to 199. It makes it easier to look at the colors than the numbers to see if there is a pattern- like if the colors change consistently as the units get higher. no one wants red or black :lol: .


Good luck!

 

Victoria,

Hi. I'm sorry, but I can't seem to find where you answered the question about what type of insulin you are using. Is it Lantus, Levemir, PZI, Caninsulin or Vetsulin or even Humulin? If you are using Lantus, yes, you give the same amount of insulin at each 12 hour interval. I think you do with Levemir, too. For these two insulins, there is a whole protocol for changing the dose, and the number you get right before you give the dose does not tell you what the dose should be. Not at all. You need to know much more than that.

As for the spreadsheet, look at the bottom of my post under my name. You can click on Max's spreadsheet, and a Google doc should come up. On the left side you see a list of chronological numbers down the side. These are just the line numbers for the spreadsheet. Then you see a column of dates, and next to that a column of numbers -- all different colors. These numbers are Max's BG in the morning right before his shot -- AMPS -- which means "AM pre-shot." Next to that is a light blue green column with the amount of insulin I gave him on that morning. Next to that you will see 12 columns that correspond to the 12 hours that Lantus is supposed to affect the blood sugar before Max should need another dose. If you see a number in any of these columns, that means I did a test during that hour - usually at the top of the hour. The 12th hour is his PM pre-shot number and then the amount of insulin I gave him in the evening. Eleven more columns follow for any tests you take throughout the night, and finally, there is a column where I put my notes. The 12th hour for the "nighttime" is at the far left side of the spreadsheet so that we start each new day with AMPS.

When referring to the numbers in the spreadsheet with call the different hours +1, +2, +3 and so on -- one hour after the shot, two hours after the shot, three hours after the shot. This way, the person looking at it doesn't have to know what time you gave the shot, and it doesn't matter if he/she is in your time zone. It doesn't matter if you had to change the time of the dose or if Daylight Savings Time is used in your area. Any number on the sheet is in direct reference to the time of the morning and evening shots.

Let us know if you need help setting one up. I was able to do it pretty easily and computers hate me, but it is a little bit tricky. Don't feel bad if you need help. That's why we are here.

 

You can see an example of a spreadsheet with 'Canadian' BG values at the link in my signature. (If it doesn't default to the correct values, just click the tab at the lower left that says 'World mmol_L'.) You can also see how our frequency of testing changed as Boo's numbers stabilized and his 'curve' flattened to a point where unsafe low BG values were not much of a risk.

 

All of your cats may be fed the same low carb diet, so you don't have to worry about her getting into their food. Dry food is a water-depleted diet and cats generally don't drink enough to compensate for that (source: Cat Info). This results in a chronic dehydrated state which may promote renal disease. If you've ever had to treat a cat for renal failure, you know you want to avoid this - its agonizing to watch your friend slowly being poisoned to death by lack of kidney function.

 

Sorry! She is on Caninsulin, 2 UI morning and night.

I know, but Im having a hard enough time just getting a schedule with Buttons, that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to set the other two up too. Hemi showed up in our door as a stray, so he's a very outdoor cat, and dry food makes more sense to leave out for him. Pepper goes in and out. She's all over the place too, whereas Buttons is strictly indoor. I am thinking of buying some of the DM dry food to leave out instead of store brand, so at least its healthier.

 

YAHOO! Pretty sure I got the spread sheet down pat! Thank you all so incredibly much!
Please feel free to tell me if I'm doing something wrong too. My vet said in the next week or so to bring her in to do the curve. Should I still do that? Should I record it too?

 

If you're feeling confident enough about the testing technique by then, it might be best to do the curve yourself, at home. Many cats get stressed at the vet's, and their BG numbers go up. You want to avoid falsely elevated numbers, because it could result in an insulin dose that is actually too high for the cat's needs, and that comes with a higher risk of hypo episodes. (We had a 'mobile' vet come to our home and do the blood draw for the initial diagnosis after I detected sugar in Boo's urine with my own 'human' test strips, but we've done all of the BG testing ourselves since then.) Also, cost may be something to consider -- an extended vet visit for a BG curve can be expensive, and home testing is only the cost of some metre strips -- again with the advantage of more-accurate numbers.

 

I think I may take her for this one, see how it goes and talk to my vet about my home testing and all that.

Now if her blood sugars go into the black zone, should I be extremely worried or just give her her insulin like normal? :S

 

There are two things that can be contributing to your high numbers. One is the insulin. Canninsulin is not an insulin that people here use. It is an insulin made for dogs and works with their metabolism; cats metabolize insulin faster so Canninsulin tends to hit fast, drop them low and not last more than 8 hours or so. A curve at home will help you see exactly how it is working.

And any dry can raise your numbers. It is best to get rid of it completely. You can freeze the wet and leave it out so he can graze.

 

Even for the other cats you have.

 

I never thought of that! Thank you. Should I buy a small bag of DM dry food, mix it with current food, and then when they're all fully on that, go straight to wet food?
But if it is the insulin, I cant just really go to the vet and say I want different insulin, can I?

I tried pricking her again this afternoon to see, but wasnt getting enough blood from her ears. I didnt want to traumatize her so I tried a few times, then praised her and loved her and left it till tonight. Is the lack of blood because her ears arent warm enough?

 

They often need their ears really warm at first. And if your lancet is too small, that can make it harder. At first, you want 25-27 gauge. Most humans use 30-31 gauge which are too small for cats in the beginning. (something about the capillaries expand the more they are poked)

With the vet. You can tell him you have been doing some research and understand that Canninsulin is short acting in cats. Remember, you're the customer. Tell him you want to try a different insulin like ProZinc, Lantus or Levemir. If he has never heard of those insulins, I would be concerned that he is not very up to date on feline diabetes. But most important is that he is willing to learn. If not, maybe we have someone who lives near you and has a FD friendly vet.

 

Yes, you can. Also, insulin is a non-prescription item in Canada, so if you're treating your own cat, you can just go to any pharmacy and buy whatever insulin you like (we use Lantus and it's worked great). Just make sure you have the correct type of syringes for the type of insulin you're getting (the pharmacist should be knowledgeable about this, as are many people on this board). We bought our Lantus in the little vials intended for use with insulin pens (though we use syringes), as these small bottles are more practical, given the tiny doses that cats, rather than humans, get.

 

Gosh. I'll be honest, I'm feeling overwhelmed and worried. I just got done doing our routine, and her ears are normally pretty warm, but I still wasnt getting enough blood. I was getting a bit frustrated, and because no one was holding her on her back, she wasnt very happy with me pricking her paw. She was eating dry food while I did it too, as that seems to be the only time she'll let me do it. Her blood glucose was 33.3 (well the meter just said high glucose, over 33.3) and Im stressing completely out. It was about 10 hours after I gave her her morning shot, and I have a feeling it is to do with the dry food. Shes still not eating all of her wet food, so shes probably grazing more. Should I just take the dry food completely away and just start with the wet food? You just freeze it and then its okay for all day? and all night? Then I'm worried then when I need to give her her insulin shot she wont eat because Ive just been giving it to her when I do that. Would I have to wait around until shes ready to eat, or should I keep a specific flavor for her insulin times?

Sorry for all the questions. Im gonna probably take her to do her curve this Thursday at the vet, and see what happens.

 

Even if her ears aren't cold you still need to warm them to above normal temp with a rice sock. The only time I wouldn't warm is if she's been sleeping on that ear or basking in the sun to make them warm. Rubbing them also helps increase the circulation so try that as well. Larger lancets work better for beginners, 25-29 gauge lancets are good and they are usually marked for "alternate site testing". Bayer's microlet lancets are 25g and I use those. Once you do the poke, stroke the ear towards where you poked to help the blood bead up. If you find you get blood and then fumble for your meter and lose it, you can pick the drop up with the back of your finger nail and then test it off there. I also find putting a tiny bit of petroleum jelly or polysporin on the testing spot and then wiping it off helps the blood bead up and not get spread into the fur. If you can't get it, give her a break. Poke 3 times, give her a treat, and try again in a bit.

If she is squirmy or tries to run or doesn't "let" you test her, you need to restrain her in the kitty burrito. Grab a bath towel, wrap her snugly in it so only her head is showing, and sit her between you and the arm of a couch or a pillow or something. Then you can restrain her between you and the couch and test her without her being able to back up or run away. It sounds mean and she will probably not like it but it is important you be able to test her and you are doing it for her health and safety and right now, that is more important than her being disgruntled for a bit afterwards. Try not to get frustrated. You will get better as testing as you go along and she will get more used to it as time goes on. Cats will feel your emotions and react based on that so if you go in to test her with a pleasant, confident attitude you will be far more successful than if you go in stressed, frustrated, or scared.

A blood glucose of 33.3 mmol/l is over 600 mg/dl. That is very high. It could either be a bounce from her insulin dose yesterday, or the dry food, or a combination of both. I dont know if anyone has explained the bounce phenomenon to you but when a cat's body is used to having high blood glucose levels all the time, when they get low carb and insulin, the blood glucose drops lower than what the body is used to. I am going to assume after the shot this morning her glucose dropped at least a little bit, but since you didn't mid cycle test I can't say for sure. But anyways, when the blood glucose is outside of the body's "comfort zone", its liver freaks out and dumps a whole bunch of hypoglycemia countermeasure hormones into the blood to raise the glucose and save the cat from a potential hypo situation. She might've hit a high 300 or something and triggered a bounce. And even though we know the cat's not really going hypo, it's just a natural body function. It will adjust eventually.

She needs to eat, even if that means eating dry food. It is better she eat dry than starve. However she might be avoiding the wet because she knows the dry is there... dry food is loaded with animal digest that makes it taste really good even though we all know it's crap inside. Yes you can freeze meal sized portions of the canned food and leave it out during the day when you're not home or at night. It takes a few hours to thaw out and then it's ready for a mid-night snacking.

Also yes you can go get your Lantus or whatever insulin you want at any pharmacy. Insulin is non prescription in Canada. I find Walmart and Costco have the cheapest prices. If you want Lantus, you want the Solostar pen cartridges. They are 5 little vials of Lantus so it is less devastating if one gets broken, contaminated, poops out, etc.

 

Don't want to make a big wall of text so here is some more info. I hate going on this rant but maybe others will be able to learn from this post.

I am sorry but Purina DM dry is NOT a healthy food in the least. Let's look at the ingredients and analyze.

Poultry by-product meal. Doesn't that sound tasty? Let's look up the definition of a byproduct.

Gross, maybe, but not so bad. It's not like a cat will open up a carcass and only eat the muscle meat. When they eat a whole prey they consume all this stuff. And it's not rendered, so the nutritional value is in tact. But these byproducts are inferior in quality to high protein low fat muscle meat.

However, it is byproduct MEAL. That's where things start to turn nasty.

So the byproduct has been rendered, making it even more inferior in quality. This byproduct meal is the #1 protein source in Purina DM. And note that this is the ONLY ingredient in the DM that would contain water. And see how rendering it takes all the water out of it?

Soy protein isolate.

So it is basically another artificially rendered protein. Except this one is a PLANT protein. Cats don't eat plants, they eat meat. Plant proteins are not equivalent to meat proteins and your cat cannot thrive on a high plant based protein diet. Cat Info has a section on that here.

Corn gluten meal - ANOTHER meal! Another plant based protein! And CORN? For a cat? For a DIABETIC CAT? Why? When is your cat going to ever tackle down a stalk of corn and start munching on the cob? Never. So why is it in a cat's food?

Soy flour - ANOTHER plant-based protein source! And a carby one at that!

Animal fat preserved with mixed-tocopherols - Mmmm, "animal'. They can't even tell you what animal it's from. It could be roadkill for all you know.

Corn starch - Yay, more corn. I think you understand this now.

Animal liver flavor - Also known as animal digest, this is the enzyme derived from an animal's intestines that they put on the food to make it so tasty. AKA the crap they have to coat the dry food in to make it at least TASTE like food, because nothing would eat it otherwise.

Maybe I carried on a bit too long, but knowing this now, you can see why Purina DM dry is a bad choice all around, for ANY cat. In the end of all the processing, all you are left with is a bunch of boiled down leftover meat scraps and animal guts, dried out and rolled up into a ball with a bunch of corn and soy. It is extremely poor quality, poor protein, high carb, low moisture, crap in a bag. The saddest part is, there are foods out there that are WORSE than this. They are CHEAP because byproducts and corn/soy are dirt cheap while meat is not, and dry food is a "set it and forget it" thing. CHEAP+CONVENIENT = SOLD. Doesn't matter if it's crap in a bag, most people don't even THINK about it. The bag says cat food, so it must be okay for kitty to eat. McDonalds is called people food, but we'd NEVER think about eating that crap every single meal every single day, right? And goodness forbid you might have to put food down for your cat more than once or twice a day!

You will see the cheapness of these foods reflected in your cat's litter box. They are full of plants and junk food your cat can't properly process, so it passes right through their system. Dry food poo is large and stinky. Cats on canned diets have smaller, less stinky poos. And cats on raw have tiny, faintly smelling poos. There is less waste to pass through their systems on a canned or raw diet.

These are the ingredients for Purina Cat Chow.

CORN MEAL is the first ingredient.

Yes, I know not all canned foods are exactly fantastic too. Friskies is a very popular food that contains a lot of meat byproducts. But they are also not rendered byproducts, and most of them still contain at least small amounts of muscle meat, liver, etc. Lots of premium names like Fancy Feast, Wellness, Merricks, EVO, etc. all have high quality protein muscle meat as the first ingredient. Another BIG thing is that canned food has MOISTURE, something dry food is EXTREMELY lacking. Dry food is the reason renal failure, crystals, cystitis, etc. is so common in cats. The more water flowing through their system, the healthier it is. Cats have a low thirst drive because mother nature designed them to get water from their food, not a water dish. They will not drink until they are very dehydrated and that wreaks all sorts of havoc on their renal system.

It would be best if you could get all your cats on a low carb canned diet. But I know that's not always feasible for most people. However there are a LOT of options for feeding multiple cats with wet. You can freeze portions of canned food and leave them out overnight. They will thaw in a few hours so your cat can have a snack when you're not there. There are also timed auto feeders, which you can put wet food in, and set to feed your cat while you are away. Most of them have ice trays for keeping the food fresh. But canned food can stay fresh for a whole day, and you can add a bit of water to wet food to keep it out longer.

There are "low carb" dry foods out there, but some cats can be sensitive to the starches that bind the kibble bits together. Wellness CORE is one that I can think of. I believe they are on Janet and Binky's chart. Purina DM dry may only be 13% carbs but that is still almost double our ideal recommended carbs, the ingredients are awful, and it is mostly plant-based proteins. Just a no-no all around.

Here are the first few ingredients of Wellness CORE dry

Looks much better, right? The meat is real meat, the meals aren't rendered, and the fat is chicken fat. There's potatoes in there somewhere and those are starchy and carby, but they are far enough down the ingredient list that the carbs aren't super high. But it can still set come cats sailing in the high numbers.

 

Sorry to flood your thread lol. Where in BC are you?

 

No no, its okay. It was a lot of information I never thought to look for and it saved me some money. Thank you
I live in lower BC, near the Alberta border. What about you?

 

Now I was reading up on catinfo.org about meters and lancets and I would love your personal experience/suggestions on this.

My dad is diabetic, using 32g and OneTouch meter. I was hoping everything would pan out using these because I believe all, or most, is covered under insurance. I'm not sure if I went out and bought a new meter and all if it would be covered, I guess I need to see. But if I have to pay, I will, I'd just prefer to buy one first and see how it goes. Now if you had a choice to choose one that will make life easier, would you go with say a 27g lancets or say, a Relion meter, that uses half the blood I need now? Would do you think would be a better investment? I'm thinking the meter but I want your ideas.

Now I'm going out of town on Wednesday so I'm able to go to a Petsmart or Petland to get her proper food and treats. I was looking, and on here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...authkey=CMiXge4J&hl=en&authkey=CMiXge4J#gid=6, as its moreso for Canadian, I would assume that Special Kitty or Wellness is best, am I right?
Also, for calculating the carb content, what is the correct way to do it? I've seen different ways, and am not sure whats right, or whats the easiest.

Thanks<3

 

I'm a OTU user and have been since '98, originally called Fast Take. I have tested and compared many meters and I stick with the OTU. If insurance will help cover the cost of test strips for that meter, if insurance will give you a OTU meter, then I would go with that meter. I also use BD Ultra Fine II lancets, found out the BD Ultra Fine III are just too fine.

 

I am in Kelowna right now, but family is from Fernie. I grew up in the East Kootenays

If your dad's OT meter is covered by insurance, and you can rely on it always being around to use, by all means continue using it. However you will want a backup meter to use when your dad is out of the house/on vacation/in case something happens to his meter.

Lancets are very cheap, Bayer's microlets which are 25g are $8 for 100. Most meters are $8-10, but most are also free with purchase of 50 or 100 strips. Strips are the most expensive part of home testing, and unfortunately we don't have the Relions in Canada. I use a Bayer Contour personally, but the strips are a whopping $79 for 100. Scooter is a DCIN sponsored kitty and they send me all his strips though. I'd be homeless if I had to buy them. nailbite_smile

 

That is amazing! haha I live in Sparwood, have my whole life! I never thought I'd find someone on here close to me, wow!

Yea, its amazing that everything is covered. Its making my life easier in that sense. Its just gotten frustrating with getting enough blood. Ive have to do it 5 times on her once because that meter needs SO much blood. But I tried the burrito method today, and only had to two 2 pokes max. So maybe it was just me learning? Or do you think I should still invest in a 25g lancet? Cause like I said, the one my dad uses is 32g.

 

Ha, yes, my dad works up at Line Creek mine, drives thru Sparwood every day I haven't been back to Fernie since last year but I plan to go back this summer to visit.

I still think it would be a good idea to get some bigger lancets, at least until her ears "learn" to bleed. I still prefer them honestly. I'd rather do one poke with a big lancets than 5 pokes with a small one :lol: I am not sure how much blood the OT uses, but the Contour I use takes 0.6ul. Nowadays that is considered a larger amount. The Relions from the USA use 0.3ul. Older meters used much more!

 

Ah! Thats amazing! haha small world, huh?

Yea, that does make sense. Can you buy lancets anywhere? Like Walmart?
I'm pretty sure the OneTouch takes 1UL so thats of course, why when i found out there is meters that take .6 and .3 that maybe itd be better. But Im assuming with a bigger lancets, it'll produce more blood? And in the end, it seems buying a new lancet is cheaper then buying a new meter and test strips.

 

Hi Victoria,

This is important: You said your cat's BG read HI on the meter meaning over 33. Times by 18 and you get 594. My US meter says HI when my cat's BG is 600 or higher. Yes, when you get numbers in the black you need to worry -- about ketones and ketoacidosis. You also need to worry if the BG is over 400, and some worry if its over 300, See http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm Look at the warning signs and memorize them.

Ketoacidosis Issue ----
There is a product called Ketostix by Bayer you need to buy at any pharmacy. Maybe there is another brand in Canada. Ask the pharmacist. You should get these tomorrow bright and early.

You need Fresh urine to use the sticks, and you have to follow the directions exactly. The way I get fresh urine is to put a baby monitor (cheap ones get a lot of interference and are not useful) next to the litter box. When I hear him scratching, I run to the box with a plastic soup ladle. I catch the urine and then put in the test strip. If you get any ketones at all, even trace, most people would urge you to take the cat for an emergency visit immediately. Ketoacidosis is a very serious and expensive to treat complication. Some cats don't get ketones. It's deadly. Don't panic. If you look at my cat's spreadsheet you will how often he is in the 300 to 600 range, and he has never tested positive for ketones.

Lantus Solostar Pens ----
By the way, if you get the Solostar Lantus pens, Lantus is U-100 insulin, and you need to make sure you get the right syringes. Make sure you don't get syringes for U-40 insulin. Even with the pens, you still need what are called in the US "3/10 mL cc" syringes. These have 1/2 unit markings on them. (They are made for children.) There may be a different name for them in Canada. We have 1/2 mL cc syringes here in the US, and they do Not have 1/2 unit markings on them. I know -- it doesn't make sense to the lay person, but that's that way it is here. Your dad probably knows about this, but he might not as a lot of adults don't have a need for syringes with 1/2 unit markings.

Anyway, you simply hold the pen upside down and insert the needle into the rubber stopper on the uncapped pen. Then, draw out the insulin you need. Don't shake it. There is no need to shake Lantus, and you don't want bubbles as the air breaks down the insulin. Then, turn the pen rightside up and turn the dosage gauge on the end of the pen to the correct number of units you withdrew and then click. Otherwise, air will seep in as you reduce the amount of insulin in the pen. I store my pen on its end so the bubbles rise to the top near the rubber stopper, and I squeeze them out using the dosage gauge if I see any in the insulin before I turn it over to draw out insulin. All these redundant precautions are probably very OCD and possibly unnecessary, but I'm nutty about wasting expensive stuff. I store the other pens in the back of the fridge, but I make sure that they don't freeze.

Use a new syringe each time. A vet told me that I could use syringes twice, but I don't because I want the insulin to last as long as possible. Lantus is supposed to "expire" after 28 days at room temperature. Keep it in the refrigerator, and you can use it on a cat for up to 6 months after you "open" the pen. All the "unopened" pens last until their expiration date. You will save a lot of money by taking care of your pens.

I'm very glad to see that you are considering switching insulins. You will get far more useful help on this board if you use an insulin that more people have experience using. Also, if you can use an insulin that lasts, in theory, for 12 hours, this journey will be far less frustrating for you. I hope you find that your cat does in fact use it for exactly 12 hours. If not, there are options, but no need to consider that now.

Injections ---
Check out the info here on the board about where to inject your cat. My vet told me to inject my cat in the scruff which was wrong, and then I read to do it in another place which also turned out not to be the best. Where you inject her will affect the absorption of the insulin and can affect the duration of its effect. This is probably the least of your concerns right now with all you are trying to learn, but at least check to see where Not to inject her, and then come back to this issue when you have acclimated to having a diabetic cat.

Lancets and Meters ----
(Another issue that isn't crucial right now if you can get these supplies for free, but you may revisit this issue in the future.) I have found that using a meter that uses strips which require the smallest amount of blood really important. Sometimes I get the tinest bead of blood, and Max is ready to shake his head or rub his paw on his ear. When you don't need to use the burrito any longer, you'll be glad you need only a tiny amount of blood. A thicker lancet (lower number) doesn't necessarily give you more blood. I seem to get varying amounts all the time regardless of whether I'm using 28 or 30. Your choices may be more limited in Canada, but starting with 32 is not recommended. I would get at least one box of 28, and get used to drawing blood with them first.

Hope all is well, and you are having an easier time with your sugarcat tonight.

 

Oh gosh! Now I'm all worried about ketones. The only two signs she seems to have is drinking excess water (though she is still eating dry food) and A LOT of urination. Now is testing for ketones something that should be done regularly or just when her readings are very high? I take Buttons in on Thursday to do her curve, do vets test for that while the cats are there?

For injections site, my vet told me to pull out just before her back leg. Is that correct?

With the switching of insulin, I am thinking about it, but I also dont want to switch too early either. Part of the reason I'm going out of town is to get her proper treats, a variety of wet food and all that. Since i havent taken the dry food completely away, should I wait and see how she reacts to this change?

See, I'm also so up in the air with the meter and lancets. I mean, I tested her today and it seemed to be doing well. We got enough blood (I found i wasnt doing it the right place really either). But with it all being covered under my dads insurance, if i can get away with just using what i have, i will. My only trouble is getting enough blood sometimes it seems, though i wonder if thats just me learning. So my initial thought is to get a meter that needs less blood, but Ive read that can get expensive with test strips and all that. Ack! I dont know what to do :S

 

I just made a post on another thread about ketones

that is a good injection spot. i shoot scooter in the side too, but closer to his front leg than back.

if you are going to give insulin regardless of the diet change it is far better that you start Lantus now than keep going with Caninsulin just to find out you need to switch later anyways. very few cats end up diet regulated. Scooter dropped from 400-500 to the 300's with a diet change, but he still needed insulin to bring him into happy regulation he's in right now. and i think he would be in remission if we could get him in for his dental cleaning... his teeth are bad but i work 40 hrs a week and don't have a vehicle, so it's not always easy to get him to the vet. actually it's never easy. it's about a $25 taxi fare and a 20 minute ride each way too :mrgreen:

honestly. if finances are a concern for you, you should contact DCIN. Scooter is DCIN sponsored and they send me his supplies when he needs them. they covered the cost of my Lantus, sent me a meter, lancets, and and continue to send an ongoing supply of strips. I pay for syringes ($36 for 100 which is absurd) but you have to be willing to commit to a proper treatment - and that means low carb canned, frequent blood glucose testing, and the right insulin. No more dry food and Caninsulin. And you need to get the hometesting routine down too, but i understand it's not easy to get such a large amoutn of blood when you're first starting out. You're doing great :thumbup

 

That is good to know about ketones. Thank you! I must say though, she does eat quite a bit, so I dont know. When I was out of town, I went and got her some lovely all natural treats, and some wet food (Special Kitty and Tiki, which I thought was only the states, wahoo!). I also asked to buy some Ketostix and they were sold out. By the time I got home/to another Walmart the pharmacy was closed. I shall try again tomorrow. Any pharmacy should have them right, no matter how small a town? How often should I be testing for ketones?

I was shocked at all the different foods I could get her, but also by how many have corn in it. Is rice counted as a starch in this case? And stupid me, forgot my phone so I couldnt calculate the carb content. Is there a way to tell if its okay just by whats labelled on there? Say the fat content?

Ill be honest, half the reason I want to stick with Cannisulin right now is because I'm cheap but also running low on money. Considering I just started, I havent used half of the stuff but I also want whats best for her too. I take her in for her curve tomorrow, and obviously, I have a lot to talk to my vet about. Hopefully I'll remember.

Thank you, also for the words of encouragement. They're much appreciated. Im not freaking out about cost when it comes to the meter, lancets and test strips. Like I said, with my dad being diabetic and working at the mine, his insurance covers that, so if I can get away with using that, then I will. So far, so good. Had to poke twice again, but second time got a lot of blood.

 

Definitely no corn or wheat. Rice is okay in some stuff... same with potatoes. Depends on how far down on the list it is. Friskies has rice. Depends on how sensitive your cat is to the carbs. I feed Whiskas recloseable trays and Special Kitty Select, neither have any corn/wheat/rice/soy/etc.

Honestly... I would personally rather spend the money on Lantus than a curve at the vets. You have a few BG readings already, the curve at the vets isn't going to tell you anything. It is a waste of money, especially because numbers at the vets tend to be elevated because of stress. It also doesn't make much sense to get curve info on an insulin you're not planning to use long term. :-| You could go in the appointment if you have questions but I don't see the point of a curve when you have access to a meter and are doing pretty good with testing.

 

Oh yea, I was also gonna say. I know not to get food that has 'in gravy' in it, put when it comes to fancy feast, it has pate. I cant remember reading if thats okay or not.

Yea, ultimately, that makes sense. I guess I'm just scared. I havent done a curve, and what if I'm missing out on something crucial? For some reason i also have it in my head that with the diet change, that it'll all work. I'm guessing what your trying to say is if her sugars havent dropped much, that this isnt the insulin for her? I also am scared cause I feel like I'm kinda going behind my vets back, and they know more then I do. Im scared of doing something wrong. You think I should not do the curve, and spend the money on getting different insulin? Im guessing I need different syringes too? Is Levemire (sp?) good on cats? I'm just asking because I believe that is what my dad uses and again, it'd be covered.

And again, I can just go into any pharmacy and ask for Ketostix and Lantus? (How much of each would you recommend?)

 

Fancy Feast classics/pates (in Canada) are great. However you might find Special Kitty Select from Walmart is easier on the wallet, and the ingredients are identical. Scooter loves the chicken, turkey, and duck flavors.

Honestly, if you look at her spreadsheet, she hasn't budged from extremely high numbers. You feeding dry food in combination with not using an appropriate insulin is not going to see much reaction from her, if at all. You could get a curve done now, sure, but as soon as you drop the carbs and switch from Caninsulin her numbers are going to change significantly and that curve is now useless. You could do one at home in an afternoon and save the money if you really want to.

I know it's hard to go against your vet's advice sometimes. They are trained professionals and we SHOULD be able to trust our kitties with their lives. But unfortunately, that's just not going to happen. Vets are like general doctors, they have to know a LOT of things about a LOT of animals. And unfortunately, feline diabetes is not all that common, and vets just do not have the time/interest to study it further. So generally they go by the things they learned in the books decades ago, never bothering to update their knowledge of it. And so cats like yours get stuck on treatment protocols from years ago, told to feed an inappropriate food, etc.

The difference with FDMB is we live and breathe feline diabetes 24/7/365. We are the true "laymen" of the disease if you will, and the immense knowledge here comes from experience. FDMB has helped so many cats from so many situations get healthy, happy, and regulated (including my Scooter), and there are many cats here who have gone off insulin. Does your vet have that kind of experience under his belt? No.

I do honestly think you should do the curve yourself and save the money for a better insulin. Levemir is a good insulin for cats too, but I don't have any experience with it as I use Lantus. You do need different syringes for Levemir and Lantus. The syringes for Caninsulin are u40. You want u100 syringes for Lev/Lantus. You can get those at any human pharmacy with no prescription. You want 5/16" (8mm) needles, 30 or 31 gauge, with half unit markings. The BD Ultrafine II's are the most popular ones around here I find. They are pricy. I haven't looked into ordering them online yet.

Even if doing a diet change significantly helps her, she might still need that extra insulin push to get regulated. And Caninsulin just isn't going to cut it...

Here's a post I made to someone in a VERY similar situation to you recently. It outlines why Caninsulin isn't a very good insulin.

 

Victoria,

Hey. Good luck tomorrow with talking with the vet. I hope he/she's cool. I'm sorry to see you going through the same fear and doubt we all have when our cats were diagnosed and we realized our vets were not up to speed. My vet very frankly told me he didn't know much about feline diabetes, and as nice as he was, it was clear he wasn't going to go to any lengths to learn for me or my cat. He is willing to listen to me discuss what I have discovered and help me make decisions by putting our two heads together. I am just grateful that he's cool with what I want to do based on my own research and what the people on this board recommend to me. I have to get a prescription for my insulin!

Never follow the advice from anyone blindly -- not the people on this board or your vet. Ask questions, get other opinions, and try to come up with what you feel makes you comfortable. There are no dumb questions, and there are is no room for ego when your pet's life is at stake. If you get defensiveness or flack about your curiousity or, worse, condescension, those are red flags.

Ketones ---
I would test for ketones every time you have a chance to catch her peeing as long as her BG is above 400. You will frequently try to catch her peeing, and by the time you get to the box, she's done. (Some people try to put the stick into the puddle of urine if there is one.) So, then you wait and worry until you catch her peeing again. I know that you are spending tons of money on this right now, and yet another expense isn't welcome, but if you have a lot of trouble with getting fresh urine, try using aquarium gravel or BB gun pellets (non-compostable) as litter or get the Smart Cat Box you see on the www.felinediabetes.com website. (I have been thinking of getting that for a while now just because of all the money I would save on litter.) Then, if you get there too late you can still test the urine.

Originally, I understood that ketones are more of a concern if the cat's blood glucose is above 400. Then, saw someone say that 300 is the point at which we should worry. I have recently been told that if you are switching insulins or reducing the insulin dose, you need to check for ketones. It's easier to check for ketones than to take BG readings. So, for people who are home all day with their pets I think they generally do check for ketones if the cat's BG is high or they are making reductions or changes to the insulin. The reason is that while having ketones is said to be rare it is so serious, and even medical attention may fail to save the cat, that people are looking to be safe rather than sorry.

Yes, your vet can test for ketones, but she could develop them at any time. So, you need to be able to do it yourself. In the US the Ketostix are very inexpensive. If the vet is doing a urine test anyway, and it's not too expensive for the tech to put a Ketostix stick into the urine, great. However, to get the urine, the vet puts a needle into the bladder -- not something you want done if it's not otherwise necessary.

The Curve ==
I agree with Ry about nixing the vet doing a curve. If money didn't matter, and you were committed to giving your cat a tiny dose like .5 units and going up in .25 increments using a dose increase protocol that is appropriate for your type of insulin as you test at home --- no matter what dose the vet told you to give -- that would be one thing. But given that you feel that using your free meter and strips is important (can't blame you there!), my advice is that the money you would spend on a curve at the vet's is money better spent on supplies, food, and insulin. These will be an ongoing expense for you.

If you are able to get blood from your cat's ear using the meter you have now, keep that meter for now. Given that you are getting the blood you need, doing your own curve is really the only way to go. I wouId only have a vet do one if there was no other way. It is so expensive and the results of the testing are not considered useful by most of the people on this board. I think at it's least harmful, it's a waste of money. However, the real danger would be that your vet doesn't take into account the elevated BG from the stress of being at the vet's all day long and having a stranger poking him 4 or 6 times in a day. If the vet takes the results at face value and prescribes a dose from that, you will be overdosing your cat. Worse, if your cat happens to be bouncing that day (yet another concept you will learn about) from her liver reacting to the insulin you have been giving her, you will get artifically high results, and your vet may prescribe a dose of insulin that is way too high, and you'll see a hypo when you get home.

If you start out at a dose that is just little too high, you may never have a hypo, but you will be in a very troublesome spot with your cat having low readings, and then bouncing way up over and over again while you are overdosing her. You'll then need to reduce the dose once you figure this out. It will take time to figure it out, and all that time you'll be wondering if the dose is too high or if it's just a normal bounce because the cat isn't used to having lower numbers. There is a motto called "Start Low, Go Slow" with insulin -- at least with Lantus this is important. Granted, I know nothing about Caninsulin -- about whether hypo is more or less likely with Caninsulin, etc. --- but either way, I urge you to consider starting a low dose and going up slowly.

Caninsulin v. other insulins ==
I completely understand that you do not want to buy more insulin now that you have Caninsulin that hasn't been used. I wouldn't use it, and I wrote you a long post about seriously considering switching from Caninsulin a couple of days ago. Somehow it didn't post, and I lost it. So, I shortened the version in my last post. In my humble opinion, if you want to try Caninsulin, this is all the more reason to do your own blood glucose curve at home. You want to see real life numbers not affected by anything that your cat will not be experiencing at home. If you discover that Caninsulin lasts less than 12 hours, you can always switch to another insulin later.

Don't be nervous, remember that you are the customer, and if you don't like the way the vet responds post it on here, and we'll help you deconstruct it. I hope, however, that he/she's totally cool with your questions and concerns and willing to learn about all your options right along with you.

Good luck.

 

Thank you so much. You have no idea how much better youve made me feel about all this.

Im going to go to the pharmacy tomorrow and see what is there, along with talking to my dad and seeing what he actually uses. This may be odd, but if I'm going to change insulin, is there somewhere I can donate the rest of the Caninsulin unused syringes or even the unused insulin? Might as well help someone else out if I can. I would assume if not, I just bring it to the vet and they'll do something with it?

Now after I talk to my dad tomorrow, I'll decide which insulin Ill attempt, but considering theres no vet to tell me what to do haha I need your help. What dose would I start out with? On Caninsulin I started out at 1.5 UI morning and night. I would assume with Lantus or Levemir, its the same in the sense that the readings on the syringes are like the Caninsulin ones? Or are they completely different? Is it also the same where it comes in like a little glass bottle and you poked the top with the syringe, tip it upside down and get the desired amount into the syringe?

Thank you so much for all your help. You have no idea how much I appreciate this. Also, I'm planning on going back to work full time instead of part time. With changing her insulin, is that going to pose problems? I'm worrying a lot more cause of no vet (though I trust you guys, dont get me wrong), and also Im not gonna know what her sugars are doing and it'll be a longer period of time that I'm away.

Lately, Buttons has been peeing a lot, leaving a little puddle, so it might work out good either way testing ketones, but the Smart Cat Box seems like a good investment. Thank you for showing me that. When I go to buy the Kitostix tomorrow, is that all I ask for or do I have to ask for a meter of some sort? Im glad its not too expensive considering Im changing insulin too!

Would you guys also recommend going in and still talking to my vet, or just leaving it all together?

 

We started out on Caninsulin and switched to Lantus. Many Canadian vets still recommend Caninsulin first. With Neko, Caninsulin did not last nearly long enough. She was always starving for several hours before meals, because the insulin had worn off. Her nadir was about 5 hours after the shot and the insulin lasted at most 10 hours. You mention one test you did 10 hours after a shot, that was a very high number. That's probably because the insulin had already worn off.

My vet recommends Caninsulin to all their clients. I was talking to a locum one day who was showing me how to blood test, and he was the one who switched me to Lantus. I had questioned my vet as to whether Caninsulin was best, and both vets there answered "that is what we use". So I am the only client on Lantus, but a second client has now started blood testing. Importantly, my vet is willing to learn and do research on Lantus. They were supportive of blood testing. It saves a ton of money over paying the vet to do curves or spot checks. I just drop off my curves to them periodically.

 

Victoria,

Hey, there. Give your vet a chance. You have the appointment scheduled anyway unless this is just a drop off? You need to know if he/she is going to work with you, and if not, you will need to look for another vet. You need him/her to run bloodwork, and take care of all the other things besides the diabetes. If you have an emergency, you will need the vet, and I suggest you tell him/her what you are doing.

See this: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=2509. It's about showing a vet the value of home blood testing. Ask him/her how many curves he does per month, and will he help you interpret yours? If he insists on Caninsulin, ask him what he would do if he sees the Caninsulin does not last 12 hours. I see people advise others on here to never change the dose without showing a vet the curves you have done. I see other people say that if your vet isn't helpful you can do this without him, but with the help of the board, and, of course, that's possible. I'm doing it. Everyone has an opinion on this topic, but in the end you have to do what you have to do if you don't have a good vet at the moment. You aren't going to let your cat go untreated.

Container for Lantus/Levemir
You will save money if you buy the Lantus or Levemir pens instead of vials. I don't know anything about Levemir, but it is supposed to work for 12 hours, I think, and there is a whole forum on here for Levemir users. But, if you have to get vials, yes, it's the same drill. It's so much better to gets pens -- they each have a lot less insulin in them and you can squeeze the air out. So, the insulin lasts much longer, plus, if you don't use a vial in 6 months you have to throw out what's left. Most people can use a up pen (or two or three) in less than six months.

Syringes --
I may have said this all ready, but the syringes are different for Lantus and Levemir because they are U-100 insulins. So you want U-100 syringes with 1/2 unit markings on them. (Caninsulin uses U-40 syringes.)

Starting Dose ---
Most people on this forum recommend the starting dose for Lantus .5 or 1.0 unit. Sometimes when switching insulins there are other considerations, but I have no experience with that.

So, I suggest you post on the Lantus forum if you switch to Lantus or the Levemir forum if you choose that one AND the Vetsulin/Caninsulin forum to ask for advice about a starting dose for the new insulin. Tell them the amount of Caninsulin you have been using and how long you have been using it. Make sure your spreadsheet is up to date, and see what they say. Put a link into your post like this http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...ediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=61799. You'll just have to be careful to always test the cat before you give a shot if you are going to be gone afterward, no exceptions. Most people would advise you to never, ever give a shot without a test first anyway! But it's all the more important if you are not there when the insulin hits it's peak at 5 to 7 hours after the shot.

Donations --
I would donate the syringes to the board. See here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=15. Then post on the Vetsulin/Caninsulin board that you made the donation. As for the insulin, I'm pretty sure your vet would throw it away. If you have not "double dipped," by putting a used syringe into it, you could post it on the Vetsulin/Caninsulin forum, and see what the people there suggest.

Have a good day!

 

With the vet, it was just a drop off. She seems very friendly and I would assume that she would be willing to work with me, but Ill see about going to talk to her.

I think I am going to try Levemir, just because that is what my dad uses. He currently has the 3 mL pen cartridges in the fridge. Because they are pen refills, do you need to use the pen for it? Should I just stick with using syringes, or is a pen easier?
Thank you for showing me all that, and I will be posting in the other forums. Im assuming you wouldnt know this but is it okay just to stop the Caninsulin and go straight to Levemir? Is her body going to be okay with it?

 

1) no, you don't need to use the pen; in fact, you may need to give doses which the pen can't deliver (ex quarter units, or slightly higher, or lower doses than a full unit)

2) You need a U-100 syringe with half unit markings, and 5/16" needle with 30-31 gauge seem to work well for most users

3) It is OK to just switch, and do it when you can be home to observe. Some folks start over at 0.5 to 1.0 units; some folks start at roughly half of the shorter acting insulin dose if it was over 2 or 3 units. If your cat ever experienced a hypo situation, you'll want to be cautious and start low. Also know that it takes several days for Levemir to get to a stable dose level, so read the stickies and hold the dose stable! Do not freak out at really high numbers UNLESS you see ketones. We encourage testing for urine ketones in general and any time you are reducing a dose. See my signature link for notes on that and other secondary monitoring tools.

 

She tested negative for ketones. WAHOO!

Now normally, do you just test for them when her sugars are high, or should you when they are low too? And the only time you need to take her in to the vet is if she has above trace, am I correct?

 

Ketones may occurr when 1) insulin is too low (can't use carbs), and/or, 2) infection is present, and/or 3) carbs are not available so fat is used for calories.

Trace levels are a warning sign that the situation is deteriorating; more than a trace is a medical emergency.

A trace with other issues present can warrant a vet visit, too - ex, not eating, blood in urine, vomiting, diarrhea, painful response if abdomen gently pressed (pancreatitis, inflammatory bowel disease, liver inflammation, etc) - and so on.

 

Hi Victoriamamie!

I am fairly new to this too and found a few things confusing at first, but this group is awesome isn't it???

I am also in Canada, and right now I feed our boy Buca Fancy Feast pate, or whiskas pate in those resealable containers (can buy it by the case at petsmart and it's much cheaper)... for treats he gets the freeze dried ones, or the grain free Lion's something (can't remember the name! but it's called lickin chicken lol) Buca is doing really well on those.

Also, did you get a glucometer for home testing? You can find lots of deals online if you google it. Go to your pharmacy and see what is available and then search for deals for those brands. Most will offer you a free glucometer if you purchase the strips. I got an AccuChek aviva for free but the strips are a little expensive - $79-85 for 100 of them.

I don't test for ketones but do BG test in the morning before I give him food, and then I take food away in the evening a couple of hours before his shot and test him then (you don't want food in his system affecting the numbers you are testing pre-shot). Also thoughout the day as I have time so that I can keep track of his numbers.

I also went from Caninsulin to a gentler insulin similar to levemir (Lantus) and it has worked out much better for us! My vet didn't like the idea of us going off of Caninsulin so basically told me she would refer me to someone else. I was in the dark with dosing and learning about how to manage this but we're not alone when we're in this group!

There are really awesome videos on youtube on how to prick the ear and test. For the first little bit I had to wrap Buca in a blanket and sit on my knees over him to hold him but now he actually purrs through it!! You'll get so good at it, he won't even flinch

Keep the board posted on how things are going! Good luck!

 

Victoria-

That is awesome! Sneakers always had between a negative and a trace until her insulin was high enough to knock them out. I would just check every other day while the numbers are high, once the numbers start dropping as long as your cat is eating and not showing signs of illness/infection once a week should be enough.

Just remember that ketones come on fast and can go from trace to moderate to high within a day.

 

Hi, Victoria,

While you are switiching insulins, I suggest to test for ketones as much as possible whether the BG reading is high or not, just to be safe. At the levels of BG your cat is showing, I would want to see a test at every pee possible, and you will miss some just because you have to go somewhere or you can't catch her peeing fast enough. She might have a low enough BG reading at one test that you don't test for ketones and then shoot up high before her next pee, but you won't know that because you didn't BG test in between. My cat went from 138 to 405 in just two hours yesterday.

Take three sticks to the litter box with you if you are using the puddle dip method. If I saw trace amounts, I would immediately put another stick in the urine to see if that was a bad stick. Then, a third if I got a negative on the second test.

Some people take their cats in when they see trace amounts only if there are also other signs of ketoacidosis. If she's acting normal, you could wait for the next pee, and test again when you see trace, but it is a risk. I personally, would panic, and take the cat in if the second stick showed trace amounts, too.

I understand that even with treatment a number of cats die from ketoacidosis. Also, it sounds like a horrible way to die. So, I think the general consensus is that catching it early is your best chance of saving your cat. However, I'm known as a "risk-adverse" person, and I hate to take chances. As you get more comfortable with caring for a diabetic cat, you may mellow a bit, and as long as you can stay with your cat, she's eating, and acting normal you might feel okay with waiting for that second pee.

Have a good day,

 

Sorry its taken me a bit to reply, I didnt realize the page went to second, derr!

As her SS shows, with Levemir her sugars are getting better, and thats making mama a happy woman! It so cute too because shes starting to get into a routine. About 8 in the morning and 7 at night she'll come searching for me meowing to let me know its time. She sits there impatiently as I get her food read, almost saying "hurry up mom!" and then she runs to where I normally place her food, checking to see if I'm following. Ugh, she's just a cutie!

This ketone thing is stressing me out though. It seems worse than the diabetes itself. I dont want my baby dying or in pain, but I cant catch her every time she pees. What if I miss something and then its my fault something happens? Oh gosh

 

Her numbers have come down already! Very nice.

As soon as you cut ALL dry food they will SIGNIFICANTLY improve, even more so than giving Levemir now would. If you continue to feed dry it will take a long time for you to get up to a Levemir dose that will counterbalance all those carbs she's eating. I would focus on doing a diet change right now.

I'm so glad to hear she's gotten into the routine already lol, my Scooter is the exact same way now. He knows when shot time is and will come to find me :lol:

But don't over stress yourself over missing ketone tests. You're doing the best you can and that's what matters. And you're doing an awesome job! :YMHUG:

 

I'm sorry you are stressing about ketones. My cat has never had them, and he has high BGs more often than not. It worried a lot at first when I first learned about ketone, and then I stopped worrying about it after a while because it had never happened. Just test as a routine matter, and cross the bridge if you come to it. Try not to stress too much about something that may never happen.

You will do the best you can for your cat, and you must forgive yourself for not being perfect. It's impossible. Notice how your cat acts. If she is acting fine, she probably is fine. If she's eating, and running around demanding that you feed her, don't worry.

You are doing a great job!

 

Thank you all so much for your support and encouragment. It honestly means the world to me! <3

With a possible fur shot, if I were to test a few hours later (I would assume her sugars wouldnt drop much), is it okay to give her another dose of insulin? By her sugars this morning, I'm pretty sure thats what happened last night.

Also in regards to her sugars, what amount of a drop is TOO much? Her sugars were extremely high this morning, but the lowest they've ever been 2 hours later. Should I be worried?

 

If you get a fur shot, do not give another shot. You have no way of knowing how much insulin went in and it's best to be safe. You'll get a chance 12 hours after the first one for another shot, and the cat will get over any missed shot. Everybody does fur shots.

Don't worry too much about drops, unless the cat drops too low. Some cats like to do that. Frustrating for the beans though, as they are hard to predict. It's good that you are testing 2 hours after your shot. It looks like today will be a more active cycle, so you'll want to get tests more often if you can, perhaps every 2-3 hours. That will give you a curve, and start to give you an idea of how Buttons reacts to the insulin throughout the cycle. It will be important to know when the nadir typically is.

 

Hi, It is so tempting when the BG is high to try to make up for a fur shot, but you can't. It's very likely that you gave her some insulin -- even just a little bit -- and you don't know how much. No matter what the readings "seem" to tell you at +2, your cat might be shooting up at +2 because of the food she ate, or because she's started a bounce, or because she's a cat, and they do illogical things sometimes. Try to relax as you see the higher numbers.

What I do is just test for ketones, and stop taking blood readings after a fur shot. That way I don't stress out all day about how high the BG is, and how upset I am with myself for messing up the shot, but Wendy probably knows something I don't. So, go ahead and grit your teeth, and take those readings today. Remember, it is impossible to Not give a fur shot once in a while.

 

Okay. Thank you so much! It is getting easier.

Another question. I remember when Buttons wasnt eating at first, someone suggested yogurt. Is that because the sugars in it are high? Stupid question, I know. But I gave it to her as a treat today after her shot, and as you can see, her sugars went for a run. I bought her these 100% natural froze dried treats, but she wont even try them. She just turns her nose up. of course, I want to give her a treat for being good, but I dont know what to give her. Help?

 

Yes, there are sugars in milk products, so that helps to explain the numbers. Nice to see the pinks today though, making progress.

There are lots of different freeze dried meat treats. Mine eat Pure Bites chicken and turkey. They also make shrimp, but only my other cat eats them. You should also be able to find freeze dried salmon treats. It's a matter of experimenting to see what works. Here is a list of low carb treat http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=9172

 

I sometimes boil chicken breast, and give that to my cat as a treat.

 

My kitties don't like the freeze dried stuff either. I use a treat made by Wellness called Pure Delights, they are more like a jerky.

 

Okay! Thank you! I'll try that


Now this might seem stupid, but are there going to be times when you test her sugars and its going to be mixed blood of her and you? Theres been a few times where my finger has hurt, so I know I must have pricked it, but no blood when I squeezed my finger. I tested her tonight and my finger was bleeding a bit. Does it matter, or effect it too much?

 

Are you putting something under her ear when you poke it? Like a gauze pad or cotton under the ear and on top of your fingers? You shouldn't be poking through to the other side to get your finger. After you do the poke you can fold the gauze pad over her ear to do compress it for a bit to prevent bruising.

This video is a great example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8 may have used, but this second one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6iXetR398 shows how you can use a gauze pad to protect your fingers.

 

Okay, thank you!

Ive just been using a Kleenex to wipe blood off and apply pressure after.

 

On Friday, it will be a week since I changed Buttons insulin to Levemir. Her sugars are doing WAY better too! How long would you wait to possibly change her dosage? How do you calculate how much she should go up and all that?

Thanks!

 

I'm so happy to hear that your cat's BG is better now. That is wonderful. I can't give you any dosing advise -- I'm not even that advanced with the Lantus that I use, but I'm sure someone will be more than happy to help you.

This is what I suggest you do: Go to the Levemir forum and post a new post. In the subject line put the date, then your cat's name, then your cat's AM pre shot value, and then "Dose Advice Please." Like this: "6/13 Max AMPS 233 Dose Advice Please?" If your Spreadsheet is up to date, someone should be able to help you make a dosing decision or she/he may tell you that the Levemir users need more information to help you.

Each day you post, post a new post with the date, cat's name, and AM pre shot value and a question mark if you have a question. You can also show any tests that you took in the subject line like this: "6/13 Max AMPS 405 +2 384 +6 315 PMPS 376" and so on. It's helpful for the members of this board to see a new post each day instead of one long post that lasts for several days.

One other thing you can do is make a copy of the URL in the address line at the top of your screen for your last post and copy it into your new post like this http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/posting.php?mode=reply&f=28&t=72265. See the URL icon above the word "wonderful" in this post? When you click on it you will see appear in your post, and the cursor will be directly between the two words. When you hit control V to ...u want to. Good luck and have a great night.

 

I agree with Dale. You should start a new thread on the Levemir forum http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php
Make sure you check out the sticky notes at the top for information on Levemir. There is also more information on Levemir on the Lantus Tight Regulation forum http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=9. This latter one is one of the most active forums and there are a number of Levemir users posting there because they are using the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lev. If you find you don't get the answers you need on dose on Levemir, you can alway hop over to the Lantus TR forum with a question. And do include a link to you previous post so everyone has the background information.

It's good to see Buttons spreadsheet is improving. Good luck!