1. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    what should his sugar be in the am for me to give him a dose of the same in the am? I feel like I asked this before but I can’t find it.

    it just makes me nervous because after I give it I have to leave for work... should I only give the night one and then try the morning one Saturday when I am home most of the day? But if I give less Of a dose tonight will his blood be way higher after work by the time I get home..
     
  2. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    I suggested a pre-shot of 150 but if you can't monitor and have little data, you could raise your no shoot BG to 200 for tomorrow. Better to be giving shots twice daily than once a day. Once a day basically sets kitty up for a roller coaster of ups and downs because the insulin shot will not last 24 hours. If you skip the shot tomorrow AM, then you can expect to see a somewhat higher BG tomorrow night.
     
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  3. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    For new members, just starting giving insulin, we suggest the "NO Shoot" threshold be around 250 with Lantus. You can lower that no shoot threshold with time. A lower "NO shoot" threshold like the 150 that Linda suggests, is for more experienced users. Users that have more data, knows how their cat will react, knows what hypo symptoms might look like with their cat.

    Yes, Nicole, you use Lantus insulin for yourself, but it works differently for cats.

    Diesel hasn't even been getting the insulin for enough time to fill up the 'Depot'. (1 shot so far. That is all.) The depot can affect the BG levels for 6 cycles. It's been one. You might want to read this post on what the depot is and what it means for your cat.

    If Diesel were my cat, I would not give the insulin until you are home this weekend to monitor.

    This is a marathon, not a sprint. Go too fast with that low a "No Shoot" threshold this early in the treatment, is dangerous.

    Plus as I said in my previous reply, you are changing the food to low carb at the same time as you started the insulin.

    The ultimate decision is in your hands.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2020
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  4. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    @Deb & Wink The 250 threshold for no shoot is something that I've seen suggested at times for use with a pet meter but not for a human meter. We usually say 150 to 200 for human meters. When I first started on this journey the threshold was 200 until one has some data so I am perfectly happy with a no shot limit of 200 although I think with the smaller dose of 0.25u, 150 would be Ok if Nicole can monitor tonight.
     
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  5. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Hi, Can you guys check my profile and see if my spreadsheet worked and is updated... I can't seem to figure out how to write date diagnosed and Meter without getting rid of those words.. or do I just delete the code and write it myself?
     
  6. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    YIPPEE! You got it! I can see the spreadsheet. Great job!

    Not sure what words you are referring to? Are you getting a message your signature is too long? If so, you don't need the dose of insulin or date you started it in your signature, only the name of the insulin. Then you should be able to add date of Diagnosis and meter. You can also cut the diet info down to simply "FF wet pates" for instance. I use the "|" as a separator for the different bits of info. If you continue to have a problem, let me know.
     
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  7. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    No on the spreadsheet in the top left hand corner.. the first boxes of info. One of my boxes just says lantus but before I wrote it said insulin: like there’s one there that says meter:
     
  8. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    Oh Now I get it. I haven't used the SS since that got added but I see no reason not to just type over what's there if you can't fit what you need to type in the space after the colons.

    Just noticed you have set up the International spreadsheet but I assumed you were in the US given the readings you've posted. Doesn't matter but wondering about your general location.
     
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  9. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    His blood is now 8.3 (149) about three hours after the 0.25 shot
     
  10. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Yah I did it on purpose to actually learn about them lol I’m in Canada so for myself I use the other one.
     
  11. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    Oh Dahh! You're in my favourite part of the country. How did I forget that!? :rolleyes: Is your meter a US meter or are you converting the readings? If you are converting them, you don't have to. The spreadsheet does that automatically. You can just use the World sheet, input your readings in mmol and the US sheet will automatically populate with the converted number. Occasionally you might have to colour code manually or do a conversion but we'll cross that bridge if and when it happens.
     
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  12. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Ohh! Hahah I hate technology. I’ll deff look at it again when I get a chance. My computer sucks and it doesn’t allow me to do much on my phone.
     
  13. MrWorfMen's Mom

    MrWorfMen's Mom Well-Known Member

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    Feb 18, 2015
    Yes using the spreadsheet on a phone would be a major pain IMHO but then I'm not married to my phone and have never accessed it there. I have enough trouble with the spreadsheet on a tablet! And the real kicker is I worked in computer technology. :woot:
     
  14. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I’m looking at what you said here again and thinking about it. He won’t eat any of his other food. Should I be giving him some higher carb food or more food so that his numbers don’t drop when this happens?
     
  15. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    He needs to eat something if his BG numbers start to drop really low. What do you have available?

    Some Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers (FFGL) is a high carb food, a nice one to have in your hypo toolkit. You would only give tiny amounts of food to bring the BG levels back up. Squeeze the gravy out of that can of FFGL food, about a teaspoon of the gravy would be a good amount. If you don't have any cans of the higher carb food to feed, you can make your own gravy from a little flour, water and butter. Alternatively you could add a drop of your pancake syrup on top of 1/2 t to 1 teaspoon of his Fancy Feast food. The sugars wear off fast, so you'd need to keep testing and feed little bits of food to prop up the numbers again. You don't want to give Diesel too much food, so that he gets full and won't eat anymore.

    Here is the Sticky on How to Treat Hypos, with more info.
     
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  16. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    I can't stay up late at night, already a couple of hours past my normal bedtime.

    If you have issues with suspected hypo symptoms and need help, Change the title of your thread and put the 911 icon on the top left.
     
  17. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I bought 2 cans of high carb food today with gravy and a huge bottle of corn syrup haha I’m sure the bottle will last a decade lol

    but because I am doing insulin and the food change at the same time I’m worried his numbers will drop when it all kicks in
     
  18. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    How long until +2 or +3?

    Did Diesel eat most of his dinner? Just the Fancy Feast pate food? whole can?
     
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  19. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    He was 8.3 about + 2 later and now this morning he is 19.4 (349) I have never given him his insulin in the am before but I leave in an hour so not sure if I should give him 0.25 or not.
     
  20. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    That was a huge drop from Preshot to +3 last night. When you get a drop like that you need to test again as Diesal probably dropped a lot further. And is bouncing this morning.
    Will he eat well this morning for you?
    Can you leave a good amount of food out for him to graze on during the day?
    If yes to both those questions I would give him the insulin (0.25)

    can you get home at all to test during the day?
     
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  21. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Yesterday I gave 0.5 and in the morning his blood was 6.2.. then 9 hours later when I got home it was 16.

    I meant to test but my alarm didn’t go off :/

    he’s hungry right now but I didn’t give him his food yet. And no I can’t get home to be able to make it back to work :(
     
  22. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    349 is plenty high enough to give the insulin. Just make sure he eats well and leave plenty of food out for him during the day. Do you have some food that’s a bit higher in carbs you can leave out? As he likes to drop.
     
  23. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I have one that is 13g in carbs... or I have his Iams but not sure the carbs in that.
     
  24. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    The 13 carbs should be good. Just because he drops quite fast.
     
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  25. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I also just noticed he barfed this morning :/ would his blood being high make him feel sick? i know it can in humans
     
  26. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    That high shouldn’t make him vomit. was the vomit his breakfast?
     
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  27. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    No it wasn’t. He hasn’t eaten yet. Barfing isn’t too unusual for him but it normally was when he would eat hard food he’d eat it too fast. He didn’t have hard. I wonder if it’s the change to the new type of food
     
  28. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Possibly, but if he eats fast, that can make him sick. I have a bolter and I slow him down by putting the food on a large plate.
     
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  29. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Good idea!

    I’m going to try to come home at noon and check on him if I can. Depends what time I can get out for lunch. That’ll be about +5
     
  30. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    That’s a really good plan. If you can get some mid cycles tests in we can see how low the dose is taking him. I suspect he dropped lower last night and that’s why he is high ( bouncing) this morning. He may be still be high at +5 or he might decide it is time to drop again. I’ll be very interested to see what it is.
     
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  31. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Came home for lunch to check his blood.. it’s 8.8 (158)
     
  32. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    How long ago was that in plus time for the SS? Can't see any updates on the SS since yesterday evening. 1/9/2020.
     
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  33. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I haven’t had a chance to update because I have been at work.

    His last test and needle was at 650 this am and that test was at noon
     
  34. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Kind of a catch-22. You can't update the SS from work and it's hard for us to tell if that was an ok reading for +5. Don't know what the Pre-shot BG was or how much insulin you gave this morning. Were you able to leave a bit of food for him before you went back to work?

    p.s. I know how hard it is to keep up to date. I was on a 3 hour call this morning, not able to check the FDMB to see how people were doing that I keep an eye on.
     
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  35. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Ok I just updated it.
    I left a bit of food but it didn’t look like he touched much of it, even if any at all.
     
  36. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Should have said that temporarily at least, if you can't update your SS for some reason, it's ok to put some of that info directly in the post.

    If Diesel ever has low numbers and you are asking for assistance, having the data updated in the SS let's us know what is going on. For instance, if you think your cat may be headed <100 mg/dl (<5.5 mmol), towards lows you haven't seen before and need some guidance. Might not be anyone signed on the message board that is familiar with Diesel and what is going on. When you need immediate help, it takes a lot of time to go back and read through previous posts.

    Must have been a senior moment on my part to forget to mention putting info in the thread (post).:rolleyes:

    That drop from pre-shot to +5 is still safe. If you are not home to monitor, leaving out a little bit of food can help, because many cats will go eat if they feel their BG's dropping lower than they are used to. I'd expect a bit of a bounce at the PM pre-shot BG test.

    We don't know when Diesel nadir's yet (lowest BG reading in cycle), since this is so new, 3 days, and that will take time to learn. The depot is still filling. Let's see what the weekend brings. I'm sure you have grocery shopping, laundry and all that other fun stuff to do also. Maybe taking kids to piano practice, or sports events.

    The first couple of weeks are tough. It get's easier as time goes on, really it does.

    Does Diesel have any other roommates?
     
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  37. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I will definitely try to be better at putting in the info. I figured out how to do it on my phone, so I should be a little quicker.

    Wondering if I should still continue with the 0.25 units for now...

    No other pets in the household. I don't think he could handle not being the center of attention hahah I do have a toddler bouncing around which he seems to tolerate pretty well.
     
  38. Red & Rover (GA)

    Red & Rover (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 18, 2016
    You are doing a fantastic job, Nicole.
     
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  39. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Son or daughter? Good thing that Diesel is ok with an active youngun' in the house.

    As far as the 0.25 dose goes, let's see what the PM pre-shot is. For now, you do not want to increase. Too early in this process to want to do that increase. Hard to see the future. I've never been good at that, but 0.25 U for tonight will likely be ok.

    You must be exhausted. Please push back at us if we are ever asking for too much, and say "Not now please". We understand that life is busy and with children, it's even busier.

    We trying to help you keep Diesel safe.

    Right now, I only have 1 cat. Thought of getting another but my civie Dancer enjoys being the center of attention too, plus she has really come out of her shell as the only cat now. But if one of the neighborhood outdoor cats comes up on my deck, watch out! She'll try to attack through the glass slider.
     
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  40. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I have a son. He’s pretty good at leaving the cat alone. He understands what being sick means so we just say Diesel is sick and he leaves him alone.

    what do you all do when you have to go away somewhere and you’re not going to be home? Do you ask someone to come take blood and shots?
     
  41. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    1. Find a catssitter experienced with feline diabetes. Check references carefully.
    2. Sometimes there is a vet tech in one of the local vet offices that is willing to make a little money on the side.
    3. Put a post in Feline Health asking if anyone knows of someone in your area that is experienced with caring for diabetic cats.
    4. Hope you have time before your vacation to get your cat better regulated.
    5. Teach family members to help out.
    6. Find if there is an adult neighbor that can help or is willing to learn.
    7. Some people haven't taken vacations in years. Doesn't work for everyone, but does work for some.
    8. Ask all your coworkers, friends, family, if they know someone, that knows someone. In other words, network among your contacts.
    9. Board your cat.
    10. Reduce the insulin dose for someone unfamiliar with your cat in case they are not able or willing to do the BG tests or your cat is uncooperative.
    11. There is a facebook closed group, owned by the same person that owns this message board. Feline Diabetes. You can ask over there for a recommendation to see if anyone knows someone in Nova Scotia. Under the file section there, there is a file called 'Willing to help a Newbie?' I looked and did not find anyone over your way. If you decide to join, let them know you are already posting on the FDMB message board and being helped. Lots of inexperienced people over there, but Chris Ronkowski (Chris & China on the message board) is a moderator. So is Karen Nicholson (a moderator) but don't know her FDMB user name. Those 2 are very knowledgeable.

    You get 50+ people piling on your threads in the Facebook group, all saying the same thing and often not answering your question.

    That's all I can think of off the top of my head.
     
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  42. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    Hi Nicole, I see you managed to get home and test Diesel. That was very useful information to get that mid cycle test.
    I would stay with the 0.25 units, unless the Preshot is too low, in which case stall don’t feed and ask for help, and keep testing during the cycles whenever you can.
     
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  43. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    His sugar is now 16.9 before his shot
     
  44. Bron and Sheba (GA)

    Bron and Sheba (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    That is high enough to shoot.
    Get a before bed year in tonight and if it is lower than the Preshot you would be wise to test again later.
    Nicole can you update your signature with the type of meter you are using please. Thx
     
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  45. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Ok I updated :)
     
  46. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    It is now been +5 and Diesel went from 16.9 before his shot to 5.9. I’m going to set an alarm and check again in the middle of the night.
     
  47. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Hi, not sure what to do. Diesel was 14 this am and I gave him his 0.25 and he ate. Now at +3 he’s 15.. Maybe I didn’t properly give the needle?! :/
     
  48. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    You may have given Diesel what we call a 'Fur Shot'. Never give more insulin because you can never be sure how much if any insulin got into your cat. Wait until the next 12 hour cycle to give more insulin "Better safe than sorry".

    Good job last night Nichole! You must be exhausted, especially with a toddler to take care of too.

    If you are able to get another test in at around +5 to +7 this AM that would be great, if you are around to do that.

    Low blue BG readings, but still safe numbers. No need to steer with food. If you did happen to give Diesel some food last night would you note that on the SS when you get a chance.

    Depot is still filling, so keeping a closer eye on Diesel and asking for a few more tests is what we are likely to do.

    The first couple of weeks are the most difficult. Hang in there! Like having a new baby and waking up at all hours to take care of their needs.
     
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  49. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Yea I read about a fur shot on here so I knew not to give him any more incase.

    my toddler was actually at my parents’ house last night so it was a little bit easier. I’ll be exhausted tomorrow because we’re on our way to get him now.

    I gave him some food because he was starving last night (may have been cause we are usually sleeping but we were up late last night so he was up and about too) but I gave him some food that only had 1g of carb in it. What type of treats do you use that would have no carbs in it that I could give him when his blood is high if he’s starving? I’ve attached a picture where I searched a link on here and got these but just want your opinion.
     

    Attached Files:

  50. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Just note the 'snack' on the SS, with + time if you remember, over in the remarks column.

    Those Pure Bites wet treats would be great! Didn't even know they made those.

    Really, any kind of pure protein/meat would be good. Any kind of cooked or raw meat or fish (yuck - hate sushi myself). Cook up some plain chicken and cut into small pieces and freeze some for later. Some people like the freeze dried treats but they can cause constipation if a cat is fed too many. Bonito (tuna) flakes. Purebites, Halo Liv-a-little freeze dried. Stella & Chewy and Primal make a freeze dried raw food. Bits of cheese or egg if Diesel likes that. Even a teaspoon or two of his regular Fancy Feast would be ok, just not the whole can later in the cycle (after +7 or so).

    Lots of choices. What can I say? Information overload yet?:p

    Sometimes we have trained our cats to expect food at a certain time. I know my little girl kitty Dancer is so used to an afternoon snack, that she'll come begging with her little squeaky meow. Sometimes she gets petting, play time or I just chat with her instead of food.
     
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  51. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    He hates the freeze dried stuff. I bought him a bag or two and he looks at me like I’m the worst mom ever when I try to give them to him haha

    I’m going to go pick him up some treats now.
     
  52. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Too much! Pickier than your toddler?
     
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  53. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    No not quite that bad lol
     
  54. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Now his blood is 10.8. So happy it came down and isn’t going to be high all day :) Giving him a pure snack treat now cause he’s starving and wrote it in the notes at +6
     
  55. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    2 pm this afternoon my cat will be giving me the "I'm starving routine" too. Like clockwork. I can tell roughly what time it is in the PM by when she starts to bug me to get her evening meal.

    You probably know better than a lot of us on here how 'yucky' you feel when your BG's are high. Diesel probably just goes and takes another nap, nap number 43 for the day.

    Have you ever had neuropathy issues or known another person who did? Lots of cats here do, and I keep telling other members to ask their vet about gabapentin (neurontin) which can be used for neuropathy pain. My MIL used that, because the nerve pain could be unrelenting.

    Shingles are also very painful and I've had friends use the gabapentin for nerve pain from that.
     
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  56. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Yes and it scares me cause his favourite spot to nap is under our bed where I can’t reach him. He knows how to not be bothered haha

    I have never had it and not sure anyone who has. What are the signs/symptoms in cats?
     
  57. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Diabetic neuropathy

    The most common complication in cats that are chronically hyperglycemic is diabetic neuropathy—about 10 percent of cats are affected. The progression to this condition may take several months, and, if properly treated, it can resolve within six to 12 months. The femoral nerve is most commonly affected.

    An affected femoral nerve can lead to a plantigrade gait, which is walking on the whole sole of the foot (e.g., like rabbits, bears, and people). In cats, this gait takes the shape of walking on hocks (heels), and the tarsal joints and nerves of the hind legs are progressively damaged, leading to pain, numbness, and weakness or paralysis. The first sign of neuropathy in cats is often weak hind legs. As the condition progresses, the cat won't be able to stand on its toes. Jumping will become increasingly difficult until it's impossible. Eventually, the cat's legs will seem to slip out from under it, and the cat will be unable to walk. These are signs of motor and sensory nerve damage.

    Fortunately, in the early stages, this damage is reversible by regulating blood glucose concentrations. Regulation alone is the treatment of choice to reverse neuropathy in cats. However, some anecdotal evidence suggests that a specific form of vitamin B12, methylcobalamin, may help these patients recover more quickly. Methylcobalamin is thought to promote nerve regrowth and can be absorbed in the spinal fluid. It is not the same as the injectable B12 given to cats that have a true deficiency due to gastrointestinal disease, and it is typically referred to as methyl-B12. A veterinarian should be consulted before using this product.

    Again, the primary treatment is regulating blood glucose concentrations. There is no research to support the use of methylcobalamin for treating peripheral neuritis in cats, but it may result in faster resolution and is relatively safe to use. The neuropathy generally resolves once good glycemic control is achieved.

    Copied from Wisconsin vet school article. https://www.dvm360.com/view/managing-complications-diabetic-cats
     
  58. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I have been trying to search but to no avail with a regular answer that isn’t someone’s story about their cat.

    He does not have them but what do you do when you see traces of ketones?
     
  59. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Trace of ketones, then monitor with keto stix if you have them. Anything more than a trace, emergency visit to a vet.

    Right at the very top of the link below, it talks about the signs to watch for with ketones.

    Try this link to learn more. Ketones, Diabetic Ketoacidosis (DKA), and Blood Ketone Meters. It's from over in the Health Links/FAQ's forum. Look under the INDEX: Health Links/FAQs sticky at the top of the post to find links to many articles put together by other members. Some of the links don't work. Some are of stories about someones cat and what they did.

    If you see a link that isn't working, go to the Suggestions, Tech Support & Testing Area forum and start a new thread to alert someone there is an issue. It could take awhile to get someone to look into the reason and get a fix in place. There just aren't enough volunteers here to keep everything on here working.

    Diesel needs a 'man cave' to keep away from your active toddler at times. Under the bed is it for him.
     
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  60. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Hi,

    Diesels blood is so high :/ 21.9. Do I still only give him 0.25? Worried that that won’t take it down enough and he’ll just be high all day :(
     
  61. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Sorry for the late reply, but yes, I'd only do the 0.25 U and I see you did that. Diesel is a bouncy, bouncy boy. Basically, his body is not used to those highs and lows. So his blood glucose is like a roller coaster right now.

    This mornings dose was cycle number 6 on Lantus for Diesel, so the 'Depot' should be filled. Let see how he does today.

    "Bouncing - Bouncing is simply a natural reaction to what the cat's system perceives as a BG value that is "too low". "Too low" is relative. If a cat is used to BGs in the 200's, 300's, or higher for a long time, then even a BG that drops to 150 can trigger a "bounce". Bouncing can also be triggered if the blood glucose drops too low and/or too fast.The pancreas, then the liver, release glucogon, glycogen and counter-regulatory hormones. The end result is a dumping of "sugar" into the bloodstream to save the cat from going hypoglycemic from a perceived low. The action is often referred to as "liver panic" or "panicky liver". *Usually*, a bounce will clear kitty's system within 3 days (6 cycles)."

    Have you read the Sticky over in the Lantus forum on how lantus works in cats? Especially about the 'Depot storage area? I put a link for that document below.

    What is the Insulin Depot?
     
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  62. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Hi, I’m going to read it now. I just took his blood and it’s 9.9

    He now hates taking his blood and it makes it so hard :( I feel so sad for him.
     
  63. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Also it talks on there about NPH. That’s what I was using before I was pregnant and I get the whole peak they talk about.

    I read this when I first joined and didn’t really get it. Thanks for sharing the link so I could read it again. Now I get the depot haha

    when should I do the curve? I am not looking forward to that. It’s testing every 2-3 hours?
     
  64. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    That number is fine, 178 = 9.9

    He doesn't understand that you are trying to help him. Give Diesel a a chin scritch from me.

    What part is he hating? Maybe we can help you with ideas for making it better.

    1. Have you tried bribes during ear testing? If Diesel is food driven, Diesel may come to associate the treats with the testing process and be more cooperative. Bribes can be brushing, play time (before or after), talking to him, some pats and chin scritches, telling him "what a good boy you are Diesel".
    2. Have one spot for testing and say "Diesel, test time and then you will get your treat." Maybe a bit of something like triple antibiotic with pain relief to take the sting out before you test. Not too much, the tiniest bit to numb the ear. Can help to see the blood drop on kitties with black ears and ear edges. Wipe off any excess.
    3. Are you aiming for the 'sweet spot' and not the vein?
    4. I always thought this ear testing psychology document was a good explanation of the 'zen' way of testing, a calmer way of approaching the process.
    5. Have you tried singing to him or some nonsense talk, say anything, like you would to a baby, doesn't matter what you say. Tell him about your day, but with a smile in your voice. Cats pick up on our stress and that can make it harder.

    Some cats are ok with ear testing. It's tough in the beginning to get your cat used to this 'new thing, what the heck are you trying to do to me mom'' Some people use the paws, but the paw pads toughen up and can be harder to get blood from weeks or months down the line. Pros and cons to doing it both ways, paw pads or ears.
     
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  65. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    When do you have the opportunity with your schedule, between life and work, active toddler and everything else? When do you think you can test every 2 hours for a 12 hour stretch? Thinking you won't have time for a curve until next weekend, but you need to tell me what is possible for you to accomplish.

    Two methods of trying to regulate a cat on lantus insulin. TR (tight regulation) and SLGS (Start Low, Go Slow). Since Diesel dropped so low on his very first tiny 0.5 unit dose of lantus, and we suggested you drop the dose from 0.5U to 0.25 U, I've been guiding you more along the lines of the SLGS. Plus the food change for Diesel, you learning how to test is a lot to change at one time.

    You can read about TR vs SLGS here. Dosing Methods: Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS) & Tight Regulation (TR)

    Read through that and let me know what you think.

    p.s. This is only for dosing if you are using lantus or levimir. DO NOT use for Prozinc, Vetsulin/Caninsulin or any of the NPH insulins. Put that warning there for other people that might be reading your posts and think they can use this dosing for their cat on a different insulin.
     
  66. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020

    Every 2 hours stresses me out hahaha He’s definitely going to hate me but I guess love me in the long run. I might see what I can swing this week. I don’t really want to wait till the weekend as that’s too far away. Maybe Wednesday but I’ll definitely let you know.

    I don’t know much about either so basically whatever one you suggest is the one I’m going to follow. I trust you guys more than my vet lol That 1 unit she suggested probably wouldn’t have been too fun!! If he’s been following towards the SLGS then I’m good with that if that’s what you think would be best.
     
  67. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    He hates the poke part and then he’s ok for a second and then starts to get aggravated while I’m trying to make the blood come out more. I try to be as gentle as possible.

    I do talk to him and give him treats. If I poke and he jolts and I don’t get the blood or it’s not enough, I give him a treat before I try again. Would you recommend trying again right away or giving it a little bit?

    I really try to hit the right spot. I can tell I didn’t once or twice. Can I go all the way around the ear? Vaseline was working for a bit but then I stopped cause I ruined 2 strips getting Vaseline on it and I’m assuming that’s why they wouldn’t suck up blood. Does doing it on the paw pads bother them more? I wonder if I could just do it here and there sometimes to give his ears a break.
     
  68. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    1. Poking attempts, 3 strikes and you are out. Give Diesel a break.
    2. Some people get the blood on their fingernail and test the blood from there. Personally, with all the gardening I do, I keep my nails pretty short. Works for some folks.
    3. Paw pads vs ears is an individual cat thing. I've had cats that HATE having their ears touched, others that were a real effort to trim there nails. Go ahead and try paw pads sometimes with Diesel because you never know. Some folks have outdoor or indoor/outdoor cats and they tend to have tougher paws.
    4. Maybe some neosporin with pain relief AFTER?

    5. Sweet spot diagram for you https://www.flickr.com/photos/28246908@N06/8773952641/
     
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  69. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    His blood is so high again :( Eveb higher than yesterday am!
     
  70. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Time to try increasing the dose back to the 0.5U of lantus. PM cycle, since it looks like you already gave the AM shot per your SS.

    Depot has filled with 8 cycles (usually only takes 6 cycles) and his BG readings are saying he needs more.

    Has Diesel finished the meds for the UTI yet? If so, could you note that on the SS in the remarks. I mean, put a note in for each day that he gets the meds, and when you expect to finish.

    We had you drop the dose initially because you were just starting to home test AND you were switching to low carb food. Since that food transition is complete, it's time to try a tiny bit more insulin.
     
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  71. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Do you want me to give 0.5 for pm and am now(except for this am)?

    Yes Diesel has finished his meds for the UTI Thursday morning I believe it was.
     
  72. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Yes, this 0.5U dose will be the same dose AM and PM for Diesel for now. It may take up to 6 cycles to see the full effects of this new dose. Think of it as steering a huge cruise ship which reacts slowly versus a high powered speedboat which can turn so much faster.

    Do you know about stalling if the BG is under 200?
     
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  73. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Yes I know kinda. I would have to stall if I did till lunch time whenever I’d have to do it so +5.

    Do I still do the curve soon or do I wait till he’s on 0.5 for a few days?
     
  74. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Up to you. Thursday AM cycle would be 6 cycles at the new higher dose. Doing a curve even during a dose change can still yield useful information. Diesel still has elevated preshot BG's, so I'm leaning towards a curve, because I'm thinking he's bouncing at night.

    Dosing Methods: Start Low, Go Slow (SLGS) & Tight Regulation (TR) These 2 dosing methods are only used for Lantus. Stalling can be used for any insulin.

    Copied this from over in the lantus forum, directly from that "Sticky" I pointed you to.

    "With experience, you may find that lowering these thresholds may work well for your cat. When you have reached that stage, the following guidelines are suggested for Lantus, Basaglar, and Levemir users following the Start Low Go Slow approach:

    If the preshot number is far below usual preshot numbers:
    • Do you need to stay on schedule? Then skip the shot.
    • Do you have some flexibility with your schedule? Then stalling to wait for the number to rise might be a good option. Don't feed, retest after 30-60 minutes, and decide if the number is shootable.
    • Repeat until the cat either reaches a number at which you are comfortable shooting, or enough time has passed that skipping the shot is necessary.
    If the preshot number is near kitty's usual preshot numbers:

    Look at your data to see what numbers you have shot in the past and decide what would be a safe, shootable number for your cat. Don't feed. Stall until kitty reaches the preshot number you've decided on and then shoot.
    We usually don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 90 mg/dL when following the SLGS Method. Remember that with SLGS, generally speaking, your goal is to achieve flat numbers that are greater than 90 mg/dL. However, let experience, data collected, knowledge of your cat, and availability to monitor help in making the best decisions for your cat."

    You don't have much data yet, Diesel dropped fast on his very first shot, you are new at all this so I think a good "Shoot/no shoot number" for Diesel should be 200 (11.1). For now. That can be decreased in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
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  75. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I can do the curve it’s just hard with my schedule but I was thinking of trying tomorrow if you think it would be a good time and that way I can be around to also monitor him with the 0.5 dose.
     
  76. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Ok, I forgot you were doing SLGS dosing. Let's wait on that dose increase if you can do the curve tomorrow. I thought you had said Wed or Thurs for a curve.

    Would you put the SLGS on your signature please?
     
  77. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I did say that but I’m gonna try to do it tomorrow as it’s probably easier with my schedule. Not sure if I’ll be able to stay home the next day to watch him at a 0.5 dose but I’m gonna try and I can always go home at +5 for lunch
     
  78. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Whatever works better for you Nichole. You know how busy your life is better than we do.

    What do you do for work? Sounds like whatever it is, you are close enough to come home at lunchtime.
     
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  79. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    I’m a teacher. I do get sick days so that’s a plus.

    my little guy isn’t feeling well and he’s home with his dad today so I will probably be home with him tomorrow. That’s why I thought it would be the perfect time to do the curve. I’m about 15 minutes away from work if there is no traffic. I get an hour for lunch so as long as I am able to leave exactly at the bell I can usually make it home and back. Last time I went I made it back with 2 minutes left hahaha
     
  80. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Ok. I’m off tomorrow. Going to do the curve!!
     
  81. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    His blood is 23 again. :( Should I still stick with the 0.25 cause I’m doing the curve tomorrow or should I give 0.5
     
  82. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Increasing the dose is what I would do for my cat.

    You'll be home tomorrow taking care of your sick son. Hope he is feeling better soon.
     
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  83. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Okay. But doing this should I still do the curve tomorrow Because I could wait till saturday. And I wanna do it when it’s going to be most useful so that I don’t have to put him through it twice :/
     
  84. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    The curve would be more useful on Saturday.

    Monitor as usual for tomorrow when you increase. AM and PM pre-shot tests, and then at +3 if you can to see how low he goes. Don't forget those PM before bed tests, to see if he drops much lower at night. If you are still up around the +5 time, would be a good time to test. If you are sleeping, then you are sleeping.
     
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  85. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Thank you so much! I think with the increase awake or not I am going to set an alarm because I know what going low is like and it ain’t fun!
     
  86. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Remember those days when you were pregnant with your son and had to get up in the middle of the night to go pee?

    Does this remind you of that time?

    You've only been here for a week. Probably seems like much, much longer with all you have learned.
     
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  87. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Oh yes! It definitely does. And I also get up to eat sometimes when my body wakes me up cause my sugar is low haha

    It does feel like I’ve been here a lot longer than a week!
     
  88. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Hi,

    I was going through other posts and read different things about food. Wondering when I should be giving Diesel food.

    so when I wake up in the morning I usually test his sugars. Should I be giving food any amount of time before he gets his shot or is right after okay with Lantus?
     
  89. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    With Lantus insulin, the order is test, feed, shoot. No waiting to feed required as with some of the short acting insulins (e.g. NPH or vetsulin).

    Some people give the shot while their cat has their head in the food bowl. I always thought it was better that they did not associate the insulin shot with feeding, as it might scare them away from eating. So I did shot then feed. (I cat sit for a fractious cat and the only way for me to get that cat insulin is to use the 'head down in the food bowl' technique.

    You can feed right after the shot. If you think Diesel may not be hungry or his appetite is off, please test first to get that non-food influenced AMPS/ PMPS test.

    Good for you for reading other posts and trying to learn more! I don't know where you find the time, with your job and your little one to care for.

    In general, with most all insulins, feeding after the middle of the cycle can cause the BG's to go up. That is because there will be less insulin as the food is digested and the insulin is starting to 'wear off'. Not as much insulin around in the cat's body to balance the glucose that gets into the bloodstream.

    p.s. I had someone test their own BG the other day, to make sure the meter and test strips were good. Person had just eaten. It was in the 130's. Which is good for a non-diabetic human after just eating.
     
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  90. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Ok. That’s what I have been doing. Test, feed and shot.

    I’ve tried the head down while eating and he doesn’t like that position for his shot. He was better today for his shots/blood test than yesterday. No fighting me! Haha

    I try to do my research on my breaks, when my little one is napping (he naps usually 2-3 hours) and then when he goes to bed. Basically I put a movie on with every intention of watching it but just end up going through posts on here. Lol

    Diesel is starving by mid afternoon usually because he was used to just eating whenever he wanted to. I try to give him just a little snack. I found a fancy feast that says less than 1g of carbs so I tend to give him that. I’m going to go buy some chicken and cook and freeze some.

    Also I don’t think I mentioned this before and I remember someone asking and I didn’t know. I weighed myself Sunday the 12th and then weighed myself with Diesel and it was a difference of 9.4 lbs
     
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  91. Tina Marie and Jan

    Tina Marie and Jan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2019
    Hello Nicole:)
    I remember when I was young with a baby, haha! Whoa, you are doing great! I feel being a diabetic for so many years (T1 40 yrs) helped me with Tina. I had a big sense of urgency to get her out of the high numbers, and a big respect for those nasty low numbers, and avoiding them. I worried a lot more about Tina than for myself, since she couldn't say, "I need food NOW"!
    Feline diabetes is different, but similarities cannot be denied.

    At some point, you might like to come over to the Lantus forum and post a daily "condo" for Diesel. Deb has been amazingly helpful; I'm just now getting to know her by her helpfulness . . . I was off in the Lantus forum and rarely looked anywhere else!

    Weighing Diesel on a regular basis is great idea. Have a great day!
     
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  92. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Thanks Jan! Can you believe that Nicole and her kitty Diesel have only been here for a week!

    Trying to help Nicole learn the basics, so she can 'graduate' over to the ISG group for lantus when she is ready. She hasn't run her first curve yet though. I was kind of waiting for that. Signature, SS setup, home testing, low carb food are all good.

    Nicole, when you get a chance, take a look over in the lantus forum. Read the 'stickies' at the top for how they do things over there. It's a bit different than here. Lots of nice folks there, like Jan and her kitty Tina Marie. Fast pace over there. But more people to look out for you. It's up to you as to when you think you are ready. You can always post in Main Health too.

    p.s. I've been away from the board for a while, my heart just wasn't in it anymore after I lost my sugardude Wink. Holiday PSA got me back to Feline Health, trying to get new members started in this journey with their newly diagnosed diabetic cat.
     
  93. Tina Marie and Jan

    Tina Marie and Jan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2019
    Wink was such a beauty Deb - I can completely understand your need to back off for a while.
    Diesel is a beauty too, and he would thank Wink for teaching his mom Deb so much. Sharing the love and your knowledge is a beautiful way to keep Wink nearby . . . always:bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug::bighug:

    Nicole - don't hesitate to reach out, anytime.
     
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  94. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Hi, I feel like it’s scarier but better knowing so much about It. I know how yucky I feel when I am high and how dangerous it is to be low. I’m glad that I understand the urgency of low numbers and know how important it is to raise them, especially Like you said where they can’t say feed me now!
    I definitely will make my way over at some point. Right now I’m in the information overload stage and once I get a better grip on things I will come on over :)
     
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  95. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Thanks for all your help. There is no way I could have done any of this without you guys!

    I always get lucky and find amazing groups. I found a mom group while I was pregnant. Y’all are the absolute best!!!

    And Diesel’s numbers at +5 are 8.3.
     
  96. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Diesel looking good at +5 with that 149 on the dose increase. (Hey what is this? What is he? Chopped liver? Link in case you are too young to understand the reference.)

    One week is a very short time to be here. No hurry to move over to the lantus forum. I hadn't even talked about that possibility yet with Nicole. Get settled in more. Wrap your head around all this new information. Go back and reread from the beginning of your post.

    You came to us a week ago, big snowstorm where you were, vet was closed, vet wanted you to start with 1U lantus, you had started the food change to lower carb already, busy at home life, day off from work because of the storm. So many things going on in your life. Very first dose of insulin ever for Diesel, half of what your vet wanted you to give and Diesel was low early in the cycle at +3 and you were having trouble getting BG tests. Talk about trial by fire!

    You've learned about skipping the shot, about stalling, about how to post for help, about reducing the dose, about 'eyeballing' tiny doses with the 1/2 unit markings on the syringe. So many other things I can't even remember.

    You've come a long way Nicole. We are very proud of you. (Corny but true.)
     
  97. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    Ok.. I’ve got a no shoot BG of 7.1 (123) Do I stall? And if so for how long? Thought I knew what to do but now that it’s here I’m like what the..... I went back and read comments and see what it says about the stall. To wait to give food but he’s starving! :(
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  98. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    How long can you stall and still keep close to your 12/12 dosing schedule?
     
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  99. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    He was suppose to get it at 7pm and it is now 9
     
  100. Nicole & Diesel

    Nicole & Diesel Member

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    Jan 7, 2020
    But the latest I can give it in the am is 730 :/ that’s when I have to leave for work
     

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