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Our cat, Caesar, was diagnosed in September. Since then we have become more and more frustrated and confused about how to help him. In our first clinic we had 2 different doctors. One was described as very aggressive and the other as more conservative. Depending upon the doctor, we varied from 8 units Vetsulin twice per day to 3 units. Although our cats fur began to look better and he gained weight, he finally had one episode of insulin shock which was quite terrifying to all of us. (our first vet clinic did all the glucose testing on site through a vein in his leg...we finally asked if we could do home testing to save money as we had seen videos on the internet. We were told to test through Caesars paw pads but we changed to his ear as that is easy and he is so willing to stay quiet for us)

In January we moved to another clinic and began home glucose testing, along with the twice daily Vetsulin. On the first of January he was receiving 4 units x 2 and his readings over a 3 week period were 96, 87, 45 and 31. On the 27th we stopped insulin and he had none for 6 days and then reached 200. He was given 2 units and dropped to 90. He was taken off insulin again and lasted 5 days with glucose readings under 250 until he reached 287 and was given 1 unit and dropped to 61. The next day he shot back up to 394...then 434.......given 3 units and dropped to 106.

He is on Hills Prescription Diet m/d (dry food) which he has any time he wants. He consumes an average of 3/4 cup per day. Since he hates the 5.5 oz Hills Prescription Diet m/d wet food, it is mixed with the 3 oz cat of Priority dinner. This mixture is offered 1/2 in the morning, 1/4 at midday, and 1/4 in the early evening.

We are truly trying to follow our vet's instructions but this is so confusing and doesnt seem to follow what I've been able to read in your postings. Our vet is so busy that its hard to ask questions so we are so hopeful that you, who are living with a diabetic cat, will be willing to help us help our beloved pet.

Thank you for listening...
Sondra1222

 

Oh Sondra! You and your poor kitty! You've been given some horrible advice, no wonder things are tough. Good for you though learning to hometest and take some control.

When your cat hypo'd last month, things should have been handled differently...

In January we moved to another clinic and began home glucose testing, along with the twice daily Vetsulin. On the first of January he was receiving 4 units x 2 and his readings over a 3 week period were 96, 87, 45 and 31. On the 27th we stopped insulin and he had none for 6 days and then reached 200. He was given 2 units and dropped to 90. He was taken off insulin again and lasted 5 days with glucose readings under 250 until he reached 287 and was given 1 unit and dropped to 61. The next day he shot back up to 394...then 434.......given 3 units and dropped to 106.

I would have gone down to 1 unit, testing inbetween to determine how it was working...the dose jumping was insane and leads to more confusion not less.

for food, MD dry is crap and isn't helping, so stick to your instincts and feed the canned, but ensure that you are testing when you do the change.

finally, vetsulin has been recalled due to instability issues, so this may also be contributing to your worries. I'd seriously consider switching to either Prozinc, lantus or levemir. We can help with this if you'd like more info...

JEn

 

OH NO - what a roller coaster for your baby

Please, breathe, read and start over



Welcome to our FDMB family and be patient with yourself. You sound like you really love your cats, so you have come to the perfect place. Get some chocolate, sit back and get ready to read. Also, remember Every Cat Is Different. (ECID) Also, remember opinions may vary sometimes on this board, so you may get different views. Unfortunately, that is human nature.
Sorry this is very long, but there is a lot to say! Also, remember we were ALL newbies once and are feeling just like you are right now! OK……..breathe………. :RAHCAT

This disease is very manageable and by no means a death sentence. There is just some learning we all had to do. You do not need any type of prescription food or “special” diabetic food. Janet & Binky’s chart is on the top of this page! Low carb is best for diabetics. I try to stay around 10% or under. I feed Whiskas, 9-Lives and mostly Friskies. If you are giving a high dose of insulin and feeding dry, be careful with switching to canned food. You MUST reduce the insulin at the same time you switch to canned food.

Please create a profile if you have not already done so. It will help us to help you. We need to know what kind of insulin you are on, what needles you are using (U-40 or U-100), what are you feeding, how much insulin you are giving and when, BG test results, etc. There are many people on this board from all over the world, so it will be helpful to know what area and time zone you are in.

Remember that your cat is YOUR cat, and YOU are paying your VET to help you take care of him; diabetes was probably a day or two worth of notes when the vet was in college; it is probably NOT a day-to-day existence with his own cat trying to maintain a quality of life. Sorry to say, but I would have overdosed my guys on insulin if I followed my vet's advice. Vets, unfortunately are not as knowledgeable as they should be on diabetes.

Sometimes, as I did, you have to take a leap of faith and trust these people on this board who deal with diabetes day in and day out. Trust me. You will not be disappointed. OK………..breathe again……….get some chocolate…….. cat_pet_icon

Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements. When you have some time (hee hee), read my profile.

If you are not hometesting already, you really need to start!! Hometesting is VERY important. Think of it as a human diabetic does. *If it were you or a child of yours, you'd be testing blood glucose levels at home prior to each shot; you'd be working with your doctor to determine a proper dose based on those shot results, correct?* Some vets do not agree with hometesting and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Most vets, sadly are not knowledgeable enough in feline diabetes. Insulin is a VERY powerful drug and you NEED to hometest before giving a shot. This is very important. The vet would rather have you bring the cat to them, stress it out more, which may spike the levels anyway and then they can charge you $$. Hometesting saved me a lot of money and it is VERY important for you personally to know the cat’s levels and how it is reacting to the insulin before you shoot so you do not pass up your ideal dosage.
Thanks to everyone's help here I learned to home test 2 cats and they both got off insulin within 3 weeks with diet change…but of course, they reacting both DIFFERENTLY with the process. If I can do it with 2 cats twice a day (and more on curve days), ANYONE can do it. It does NOT hurt them as much as you think it does. It just stings for a moment and then it is gone, you can try it on yourself. Also, put pressure on the ear after poking and it should minimize the nub. They won't mind it once they start feeling better. I use the True Track meter (CVS or Walgreens brand) which I love. And, the strips are also reasonable. Also, remember to give them a treat after the test. Here is a link to a member videos on hometesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6iXetR398

I would not feed DRY food if at all possible. Of course, it is better than nothing – you MUST get them to eat if you are giving insulin, but if there is any chance, get them off the dry. I took my guys off dry and within a month they were off insulin. Again, remember that switching from dry to wet can cause a drop in blood sugars, so you MUST reduce insulin at the same time to make sure you are not giving too much insulin. I truly believe also that I saved some of my many others from developing diabetes. I also saved so, so much money changing them all to regular canned cat food.
When Blackie and Jackie got diagnosed, I was afraid to start shots. The people on this board made me realize it was no big deal. (They went on PZI insulin around 3-25-06 and went off on 4-18-06! Please also realize that diet plays a BIG, BIG part in insulin needs. I switched my cats off dry food to all wet and I was never so happy. It was a challenge to try to regulate 2 cats at once.


Welcome to the Sugar Dance. flip_cat
Welcome to the Vampire Club.

If I can do it, ANYONE can!!!
It does get easier. Trust us.

You need to test BEFORE you shoot. It usually goes: Test, Feed, Shoot



There's a saying something like "better the sugar level is too high for a day than too low for a minute".

 

Sondra,
Welcome to fdmb!! There are many wonderful and helpful people here. You have come to the right place.

Its great that you are hometesting, that is the biggest thing you can do to help your kitty!!

While I don't have the extensive experience that many others here have, I can tell you a couple general things.

I don't have any experience with vetsulin, but I do know that it has been recalled and many vets and pet owners have stopped using it due to inconsistency in the product. There are several other insulins that work much better.

Drastic changes in dosage from one day to the next isn't recommended. It seems most people adjust .25 or .5 at a time, and then let the dosage settle for a few days to see the reaction. Others will be able to give you more specific info, so I won't even attempt that.

Diet plays a crucial role in the treatment of diabetes. Dry food contains far too many carbs, even the expensive prescription diets. Plus, there's no water in dry food, and kitties get most of their water from their food. Have you checked out J&B's food charts?
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
I know, when my cat was first dx, looking at these charts was a bit overwhelming at first. Just take your time and try to find anything they will eat that's under 10% carbs. Try not to feed fish more than 1x a week.

Most importantly, take a deep breath and try to relax. You are doing a great thing for Caesar by posting here and asking questions. With the helpful advice from all the wonderful people on this board, you and Caesar will be doing great in no time at all!

Jen

 

Hi Sondra,
You're in the right place here. Keep reading - EVERYTHING on this site and in the llinks. There's lots of smart, caring people here, you'll get it under control. The vet may be too busy - but no one here is - you are not alone.

 

hi not sure where you are located, but you need to know that there is a product recall on vestulin. It's on the board here as well as if you google vestulin recall - you should be able to see it,

So, with that being said, you may want to consider a different insulin. Personally I highly recommend the L's - lantus or levemir. They work very differently from vestulin, so I suggest that you go to the lantus board and read the starred information there to learn about the insulin and how it works, etc.

Regarding vets - I'm sorry you've been given such poor information and see that others have provided suggestions on this front.

 

Hello to all of the caring angels who have responded to my original post

Thank you so very much for all the replies to my plea for help. I have been silent as I tried to read through much of the information on the site and on the links provided. Still working on it but have already logged in around 6 hours. There is so much to learn! Before reading and studying, I had so many questions that it was hard to decide which one made the most sense. After my reading I have narrowed things down to some specific questions:

I know that we were doing everything wrong and, unbelievably, this was in large part based on advice from our vet clinic. We had the wrong food (Hills Prescription Diet M/D wet but also the Hills Prescription Diet M/D dry for free feeding), were injecting into the scruff of the neck, ect etc. In addition, we were not careful about consistent testing time, when to test, or when to inject. Yesterday, after 2 units of Vetsulin at about 8AM, Caesar tested 491 at 6:30PM. He then had 2 more units of Vetsulin. He hasnt been tested yet today although he had a shot at 8AM. It is PERFECTLY ALRIGHT for you to correct or scold me for doing this all wrong. I am relying on you to help me learn.

1. When should we be hysterical about a high BG level? I am closing in on "hysteria" with a test of 491!

2. Can we switch to the canned food recommended on your board and throw out the Hills dry but continue with the Hills wet as we have 10 cans left? I have read all the information about how change of diet and absence of kibble can lead to hypoglycemic reaction. If we switch, how often should Caesar have a blood test? He prefers wet food but has hated the Hills wet so is eating quite a lot of dry. He is quite good about having his blood tested. We are using Walgreens TrueTest meter which I discovered in my reading is no longer recommended (we are running about a 100% level of doing the wrong thing!)

I have many more questions but dont want to overload and wear out my welcome! Please help us. Our kitty is so sweet and follows my husband from room to room. We want to do everything we can to help him

Sondra

 

Test timing: Always test before a shot. This is the most important test. Then get 2 or 3 other tests between shots. Right now, vary the times (one day do +4, +6. and +9 and another day do +3, +5, and +10, for instance). This is to give you a picture of how your kitty is reacting to insulin throughout the day. For nights, do a test right before you go to bed, and if you wake up in the middle of the night, test then, too. Cats often have different reactions to insulin at night and during the day, so you can't assume that by testing during the day, you are also getting a picture of what goes on at night. But don't feel that you have to stay up all night - you don't. The bedtime check will tell you if something really odd is going on and you truly need to stay up, but normally you don't.

Eventually, you will learn which tests are most important for your cat and your insulin. Then you can concentrate on those and not bother with the other in-between tests except when you are doing a curve. But ALWAYS test before a shot.

I'll leave your other questions for others to answer.

Welcome to FCMB - the best place you never wanted to be!

 

From the food charts on here, m/d dry has only 1% more carbs than the wet. The big issue is that the ingredients are not as good as the vet makes you think. There are comparable OTC foods out there, so the hill's isn't a must, and you should be fine to finish out with what you have. Consistent pre- shot testing and consistent shot times are really important too.

 

If Caesar doesnt eat all of the wet food given at meal time, can it be left for him to nibble on or does it need to be picked up until the next meal?

Thank you!
Sondra

 

Wet food can be left out. No need to take it up between scheduled "meals."

 

So are you still on 3u twice a day or have you dropped it to 1u twice a day?

If you took away the dry and are only feeding the wet, you want to drop it to 1u twice a day and start all over. And you want to keep it at a consistent dose for at least a week to settle. :cry:


Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements. When you have some time (hee hee), read my profile.

There's a saying something like "better the sugar level is too high for a day than too low for a minute".


Keep us informed.

 

Hello and thank you so much!

We are at 2U Vetsulin twice a day. With a reading of 491 should we really drop to 1U? (well, I guess we should if we stop the dry food...right?)

Question: how high can the BG reading be before we need to rush to the vet?

You are all so nice to take the time to mentor us!
Sondra

 

Where did you read that injecting into the scruff of the neck is wrong? Maybe I misunderstand what you mean by scruff?

 

Re not using the scruff of the neck as injection site: I read it on this message board.

Re: 11/02 Buddy (Sarg) AM 505 +1 499
Posted by: Megan and Solomon (IP Logged)
Date: November 3, 2009 12:53AM

Exerpt... The scruff of the neck is the worst place and results in poor absorption. We generally recommend giving the shot in the area of loose skin on the side of the cats chest just above point of the elbow. It's not quite as easy as a scruff shot, but we shave it at first so it's a little easier. .....

Sondra

 

Aha! Well, shooting in the scruff vs other areas isn't totally set in stone and some people only shoot in the scruff. I certainly got results shooting there so I wouldn't worry; in the beginning the scruff is just easier. As you get better, you can play around with other areas.

Jen

 

Like Jen said.. it's not set in stone.. I shoot the scruff as do a lot of people.. and personally I think it may (or may not) be optimal to shoot somewhere else, but there's a lot of more important things to sort out first.. food, insulin, dose, etc.. once your kitty is regulated, and your bored with not having any new adventures (haha).. then it may be worth playing with..

Unless of course it doesn't give you or your cat much grief.. then go for it.. but if it were me, I would put the extra effort into getting more tests and stuff.

 

Yes it's true that there can be slight differences in absorbtion depending on the location, but by no means is the scruff a NO-NO! Many people shoot insulin in the scruff, some people rotate between scruff mornings and flank evenings. I do want to point out that the person you have quoted above was very controversial on the board and gave a lot of "bogus" advice. In addition the person she was responding to with the cat Buddy is a special case because Buddy has a condition which makes him unresponsive to insulin (autoantibodies). There is lot's of good information on this board, but not everything you come across is right or complete or applicable to all cats.

 

Thank you all so much! We have thrown out all the Hills Prescription Diet m/d dry food and are going to the store today to purchase the canned foods recommended on your board. We will be mixing that with the Hills Prescription Diet m/d wet food as Caesar hates the Hills. He will be thrilled when the 10 remaining cans of Hills are no longer a part of his life!

We have also started a curve which began at 7AM today and will be serving the purpose of monitoring him as the dry food has been removed. He was never a big fan of the dry food but liked to nibble. He has non-fat milk as a treat after his bg test.

We have changed vets and have an appointment with Dr. Karnia, a recommended vet in Scottsdale Cat Clinic, on Friday.

So.....if you ever thought your own knowledge, gained sometimes through sad experience, as well as your generous offers of help went unheeded, you can lay those thoughts to rest today. We are so very grateful for your suggestions and are working, with your help, to do what we can to change Caesar's life.

Gratefully
Sondra, Tom and Caesar (members for 6 days)

PS: I even managed to figure out how to get the spreadsheet up and running. Its a wonderful tool and we will be using it throughout the day....and in the months to come!

 

Good for you!

 

You can return unopened food to the vet for a refund.

 

And/or you are welcome to come to the PZI forum and read how ProZinc works, etc.

 

I apologize if I missed this, but if it hasn't been suggested that you purchase some urine test strips for testing for Ketones that you add these to your supply list. If you can catch Caesar in the act and get him to pee right on the strip, that's best, otherwise you can test a fresh piddle puddle, but this is something you should get in the habit of doing, especially if his numbers are higher. You can get them at most pharmacies, sometimes they're behind the counter. There is a color chart on the bottle; this can be a good indicator if you need to seek veterinary help quickly.

 

Thank you! --we will ask for urine test strips when we visit the vet on Friday.

 

HELP! Yesterday we removed Caesar's dry food and began testing. We had been on 2.5U of vetsulin and, taking advice found on the message board, had reduced the dose to 1U to counteract a possible drop in bg due to the removal of the dry food. By the end of the day his bg was 541!! We still gave only 1U, taking to heart the idea to start low and go slow. His bg curve is on his updated spreadsheet.

Do we still stay with only 1U?

Thanks for any help and advice you are able to offer.
Frantic!
Sondra

 

Yes stay with the 1u. As hard as it is, you have to be patient. I know how it is wanting to see results right away nailbite_smile

Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements.

There's a saying something like "better the sugar level is too high for a day than too low for a minute".

 

I'd say yes, with the caution that we've no idea whether you were giving too much or too little. I believe the rebound test is to drop the dose for 3 days. If in fact you see no improvement or things get worse, then I'd suggest upping the dose by 1/2 unit for a few days again and testing to see what is going on. I know this is scary, but it is so hard to know what dose is needed without starting at the beginning.

Jen

 

Your vet may have strips that test for glucose. These are useful for learning at what point your kitty spills sugar into the urine, but the ones I'm talking about that the vet may not have available for purchase are for testing for ketones in the urine. Ketostix I think is one brand. Or Keto-diastix. They're different from the regular urine testing strips, but not expensive.

 

ketostix and ketodiastix are available from any pharmacy; your vet may or may not have them. Ketostix test for ketones, ketodiastix test for both ketones and glucose. Note that glucose is spilled into the urine after blood glucose levels go above renal threshold, which is approximately 270. So then glucose concentrates in the urine in the bladder inbetween urinations. So there is no way to really correlate urine glucose readings with blood glucose readings. A cat may spill glucose but also go waayyy too low inbetween..

 

Sondra,

I have just skimmed this thread, but I wanted to add something.
The ketostix (ketones) or ketodiastix (ketones & glucose) are approx. $12-$15 and are available at any human pharmacy WITHOUT a prescription. They are kept behind the window, so you have to ask, but do not need a prescription.
If you see ketones in the urine above trace, you should go see your vet ASAP, and encourage fluids in the meantime.

Are you still using Vetsulin? Has anyone mentioned the product alert to you? Check their website.

The really high numbers for a few days are not as concerning as the really low numbers, which can be an emergency. I know the high numbers are scary and they are not desirable, but so long as you are not seeing ketones, he can stand high numbers for awhile until you sort out the food. The dry food takes several days to get completely out of his system, so hang in there, and get those ketostix.

 

hello Nancy and Cody

Yes, I am aware there are problems with vetsulin. We have an appointment Friday with a vet who was recommended for diabetic kitties...cat only practise so that seems encouraging. We will ask how to transition to another insulin.

Are there symptoms which would alert us to ketones in the urine (other than the obvious ketostix)? Before he was diagnosed, Caesar's litter pan had a very distinct odor from about a block away! the vet at that time said it was glucose being eliminated through the urine but we have had so much varying information from our vets that I now doubt everything. At present, his litter pan does not have the same odor and he seems to be drinking water well...as well as small amounts of non-fat milk. (not has much water as before he was diagnosed, but certainly enough to mention)

Will also ask the vet about ketostix and perhaps have a test while we are there.

I am so grateful that I found this board and that, further, I have time to ask questions here before taking a long drive to the vet on Friday.!

THanks so much!
Sondra

 

We have not changed from the Hills wet food yet as we dont know how much change is good....we did go to the store to get prepared.
Referring to Jan and Binky's chart, is Friskies Sliced chicken Dinner in Gravy the same as Meaty Bits, chicken dinner in gravy?

Hope we didnt buy the wrong thing....the other cans followed the description quite well.

Sondra

 

Hi Sondra,

Most of your questions have been answered, but I didn't see answers to the following: How high can the BG reading be before we have to rush to the vet? High numbers are nothing to worry about at this stage, ignore them. It's the low numbers you need to attend to in order to prevent hypo and in order to find the nadir, the lowest spot in the cycle, so you can evaluate how the insulin is working.

As for the junk food you got from the vet, the manufacturers guarantee a refund, so take it back and get one.

 

You want to stay away from any gravy foods....like the sliced in gravy, prime fillets, shredded......etc


My crew likes

Turkey and Giblets
Country Style
Poultry
Mixed Grill
Mariner's Catch
Special Diet Chicken and Beef
Special Diet Chicken and Liver
Salmon

 

My kitty has only had ketones one time that I was aware of, so I can't tell you from personal experience, but as with humans, an acetone smell of the breath, I guess like nail polish remover, is tell tale.
PLEASE go to the grocery store pharmacy and get ketodiastix or ketostix. If he has them, and it is possible with the high numbers, it is an emergency and you need to get to a vet ASAP. If he doesn't have them, you have 1 less thing to worry about!


I would avoid any milk based products for your cat because milk/dairy is very high in lactose which is a sugar, breaks down straight to glucose. He doesn't need it. he does need water.

Avoid any food with gravy, because gravy usually has some sort of thickener which is a big source of carbs. Save the gravy food you have in case of hypo someday. It important to have some high carb food on hand. If you still have that dry, keep it around for the same reason, just don't feed it unless you have a crisis situation (wont eat for a long period or hypo)

 

Sondra,
I noticed on his spreadsheet that you have given extra canned food to make up for the dry. That is good. Dry food has more dense calories (no water to bulk it up) so you need to offer plenty of canned to make up the difference. Kitty needs to eat!

and get the ketostix please. Trust me, you don't need to wait for your new vet on this one. You are just collecting important and inexpensive information that can save his life someday.

 

While some people may be able to detect the acetone smell of ketones on their cats breath, this is actually a fairly rare occurence so you have to go by clinical symptoms (ie behaviour etc) as well as urine testing.

 

Regarding the post from cell99 about canned food in gravy: What about all the foods in gravy which are listed on Jan and Binky's page?? We took information from that website and went to the store.....why would the foods in gravy be posted on that site if they were not good for a diabetic cat?

HELP
Sondra

 

Hello Nancy and Cody, Jan and Squeak who gave wonderful advice about ketones.......

Not to be inappropriate, but my guess is that Caesar's litter box before diagnosis must have contained expelled glucose. (thank heavens its much improved now!) No way was that the odor of fingernail polish. Regarding the urgency of possible ketones in his urine: tomorrow was the earliest appointment we could have with the recommended vet and I hesitate to go again to our old vet from whom we have had conflicting information. I think we will just have to wait until tomorrow but we will definitely ask for information about ketones. Am printing out a list of all the things we must cover during our visit so I dont miss a thing...

Thanks so much for your concern!!
Sondra

 

Take a minute and look at this recent post from someone who luckily knew how to test for ketones at home. Ketones are not glucose. They are are by product of fat metabolism, I believe.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6671&p=73781#p73781

Hang in there

 

To answer your question about Janet and Binky's chart, Janet has tried to post as many foods as possible so that people can check the values that work for their cat and which foods they need to stay away from. For a diabetic cat, you want to pick a food that is between 8 - 10% carbs. Fish is low in carbs but should be fed only a few times a week (high mercury and phosphorous values and they can become picky and refuse to eat anything other than fish.) No worries, you can take any food back to the store that is too high in carbs and get another flavor. Just tell them your cat won't eat it.

 

thank you for your reply....I was inquiring about the post saying not to feed any foods packaged in gravy. There are many food with gravy on Jan and Binky's list. We purchased some of those. If diabetic cats should not eat food with gravy, why would those foods and brands be on Jan and Binky's list?

thanks for input
Sondra

 

The problem with gravy foods is the gravy itself is high carb and therefore, it's good to have in your hypo tool kit, but not to feed on a daily basis. We recommend staying away from gravy because of the too high carb value.

The mushy stuff - pate styles are the ones that are typically considered low carb.

It's ok to keep the gravy foods - just put them in the hypo kit, or if you don't have that yet, separate them from the regular daily feeding - mark them and pull them out when his numbers drop very low and the suggestions will come feed the drop - meaning give some high carb food.

And when I say very low, generally speaking that's BG below 50 - but I use this as a VERY general rule as every situation is different and not all below 50's need a high carb boost.

Does that make sense?

 

Actually...

Some of the gravy foods aren't as high in carbs as others, so the caution is general.

When choosing a food, there are a few considerations

1. percentage of calories from carbs - a good level is 5-7% but that isn't written in stone
2. do not feed a lot of fish as it is high in phosphorous, possibly high in heavy metals and isn't a good protein source
3. look at the source of protein - is it muscle meat (e.g. "chicken" or "chicken meal") or is it biproducts or corn? Some biproducts are ok but you don't want all biproducts. And corn is a cheap source of plant protein that has no business in cat ofod.
4. dry vs wet vs raw - a wet or raw diet is best in that it is highest and moisture and the protein is less cooked than dry.
5. other medical conditions - for example, a cat with compromised kidneys needs lower phosphorous, and a cat prone to pancreatitis may need lower fat
6. cost - what can you afford?
7. cat - what will it actually eat? Could be the best food in the world but if they won't eat it then it really doesn't matter!

 

How are things going?

 

Thank you so much for asking! We made the long drive to Dr. Karnia and we are soooooo relieved. She certainly understands feline diabetes and answered all the questions we had prepared from our research on the FDMB without a pause. Caesar is now on Lantus and no longer has the dreaded Hills Prescription Diet m/d canned food. He is beside himself with joy! He seems so hungry for something good that his bowl is completely clean not long after mealtime. Dr. Karnia warned about his calorie intake and he will have to watch his intake but he is thrilled right now!

His numbers are still high but we are holding steady and just watching his attitude and how he feels......so far so good.

We can never thank the volunteer angels of the FDMB enough....
Tom, Caesar and Sondra

 

The reason they are on the list is so you can see the numbers on them. For diabetic cats the carbs need to be below 10%.

Glad to hear your baby is doing much better.

 

Hello...so sorry to hear about Tida...wishing you comfort in this sad time. Thank you for the clarification about Binky and Jans list of foods. We have our cans already setting on the kitchen counter ready to be returned to the store
Sondra

 

One thing we all agree on is that if a cat stops eating period, we don't worry about carb content so much. The most important thing is for them to eat so if a cat won't eat, go ahead and get them whatever they might want. If the cat is being normal, then you want to just look for a food on the list under 10% (as a good rule). If you happened to find one that was 12% and it is the only canned food the cat will eat, I think I would go with it. So as you can see, it's not like there is a line in the sand here. But general rule of thumb, especially these days, you can usually find something under 10% they like.

 

Also don't get hung up on calories either. Especially if you have a cat that isn't eating, it's important that the cat eats.

 

thanks so much for all the tips....happily, Caesar has never been a cat who would not eat. At one point he was 24 pounds but is a very large cat. Before and after diagnosis he dropped to 14 pounds. Anyway, he is so thrilled not to have to eat the Hills that he is begging for more of the new canned food all the time. Quite a change and we will need to make sure to keep him as close to his diet as possible or he will gain weight again. He is 17 pounds now and Dr Karnia wants him at 15.

Thanks again!
Sondra

 

Re: new message board user UPDATE

It has been exactly one month since my first posting on this forum and I am writing to thank you again. Thanks to you, we have found a wonderful vet at Scottsdale Cat Hospital and this week took Caesar in for another glucose curve. His numbers are still in the low to mid 300's but certainly better than they were one month ago. His insulin, which was changed to Lantus, was increased to 3U twice a day on Monday and we are watching him carefully for any sign of too much insulin. His diet has been completely changed and he is much happier although always hungry because he has been placed on a 220 calorie a day diet. We wish cats had some sort of "filler" they could consume between meals to keep hunger at bay!

Again thank you from Caesar and his family...we are all doing much better.
Sondra

 

Sondra -

Are you home testing your kitty's BG? If so, do you have a spreadsheet set up for his numbers? 3U of Lantus twice a day seems like quite a bit - how quickly did you arrive at this number?

Every cat is different, but I can only tell you that my vet had recommended this dose for my cat, and it was too much, especially after I changed him to an all canned, low carb diet. Luckily, I decided to follow the dosing protocol and started all over at 1U twice a day - even at that dose, Porky did have one hypoglycemic episode, which I only caught by my home testing.

 

You asked about a "filler" to keep hunger at bay. This might or might not be useful in your case, but I have found with several very different cats that including some water along with the food (stir the food into the water to make it soupy) helps a good deal with the hungries.

Also, you might be able to divide the same amount of food up into a larger number of small meals. You can either have two main meals with comparatively large portions and then small snacks throughout the day, or just divide the total up into a bunch of small meals, every two hours or so. For some people and cats, a timed feeder accomplishes this when the owner can't be there or during the night. (Depends on your circumstances whether this would work.) Either way, it's important that the snacks or small meals not be *additional* food but simply a portion of what otherwise would be served at the main mealtimes.

Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be anything for cats like celery sticks for humans - filling but hardly any calories.

Anyway, water stirred into the food and/or dividing feedings into more meals (but the same total amount of food) are worth trying if you aren't already doing them.

 

Hi, Sondra and Caesar. I'm also a newbie. My Blaze was diagnosed on March 2 and has been on Humulin-N for just over a week now, so we're still in the Big Adjustment phase as well. Blaze's initial BG was 595! Like you, I've been trying to absorb a lot of information very quickly, and I've found this to be a compassionate and responsive community. I'm just starting to learn how to hometest; we got a free starter kit from Cindy and Mousie (GA), and I watched the recommended vids, but Blaze doesn't like his ears fooled with and so far, although I'm deft with the insulin hypo, I've been pretty clumsy with the lancet. We're still getting used to it all, but things are definitely improving. Since starting on the insulin, Blaze has been drinking and peeing less excessively but still has a raging appetite. He gets one 5.5 ounce can of wet food every day, spread across 2 or 3 feedings, depending on my daytime schedule, but he wakes me in the middle of the night because he's so hungry. I've been supplementing the can with a few ounces of lightly braised (in a little water) ground chicken and turkey. I aim to feed adequate calories for his target weight of about 12 pounds. He was down to 8.5 at diagnosis.

You're in a good place here. Welcome!

JeanK and Blaze

 

Hello JeanK and Blaze.....you are absolutely correct. This is the place to be. Am glad we both found these wonderful people!

Caesar got to 25 lbs at his heaviest and dropped to 14 in the middle of his veterinary nightmare then ended at 18 where he is now. The vet has set his target weight at 17 but even though we kept him to a strict 220 calories per day, he didnt lose any weight over the last time he was at the new vet. The vet says he will be less hungry when his glucose level is lower. He may also feel more like running and playing a bit when this is finally under control.

Hang in there, you can do the testing!
Sondra

 

Hi Jennifer and Porky

Thanks for your concern about Caesar's insulin dosage: to see Caesar's spreadsheet, you can click on the link below my signature. We saw the new vet Feb 3 and were changed from Vetsulin to Lantus at 1u dosage 2 times per day. Over the next 36 days he was increased to 3U bid and still is running in the mid 350's.....he had an all day BG curve at the vet hospital on Tuesday. He hasnt had anymore 540 readings but seems to settle in at 300-350 and doesnt want to move. He will stay at 3U until the vet makes another decision in a week or two. We are watching him closely for any signs of hypo but so far so good. Maybe his dosage is higher than Porky's (regardless of his porcine namesake, of course) because Caesar is a pretty big cat. Normal weight is supposedly 17 lbs. Anyway, thanks again for your concern we are keeping careful watch.

Dear Jean and Megan....Thanks! will try the water mixed with food. Caesar is soooooo hungry. Too bad there are no celery sticks for cats!

Caesar and family

 

Hey Sondra,
Glad to hear things are going better for you guys.

1) As for "celery sticks" to fill them up between meals, I wonder if he might like Pure Bites freeze dried chicken breast treats. I buy the bags marketed to DOGS because they are larger chunks and they are much cheaper than the same thing marketed to cats. It is 100% chicken breast, therefore high protein, (low carb) and minimal in the calorie department. You can either wet it and it looks like raw chix, or you can crumble it onto food to entice them to eat (sounds like that is not an issue :lol: ). I do both to add some high quality protein to his diet. I think the bag says something like 8 calories per treat, but each piece is a different size so ????? If you have a Pet Supplies Plus nearby, they sell them.

2) I noticed you said he is a BIG kitty and now you are up to 3u. If you end up getting to 5u someday, you might want to come give us a look over in the HIGH DOSE insulin support group forum. Big (ie large paws, big head, big organs, pot belly,) and resistant to high doses, can be clues to some other explanations about his diabetes. How old is he?

3) My cat used to be desperate for food and did much better with more frequent meals. As mentioned above, you don't need to change the overall amount, but break it up into possibly 4 meals/day rather than 2 meals/day. I think it actually helps a recovering pancreas to have more frequent meals. If you work or aren't home a timed feeder is a perfect solution. Here's the new link to Pet Safe feeders. (Cody broke into the 2 meal feeder, so I would splurge for the 5 meal feeder. ) http://www.petsafe.net/Products/Feed-an ... matic.aspx

It looks like you home test a little bit. Is he difficult to test? It would tell you so much more about whats REALLY happening if you could do a curve at home some weekend. Curves at the vet (car trip) are stressful and usually less accurate (and very expensive) If your strips are expensive, there are really good meters available with strips as cheap as $16.50 /50. Here's one option that I use and feel is very consistant.
http://hocks.com/hocks-healthcare/hocks ... FM-14.html

Hang in there

 

Hello dear friends

I joined this group in February this year as we could not control our kitty's uncontrolled diabetes...he had had terrible experiences with vets who simply experimented with insulin until he went into insulin shock several times. Thanks to all of you, we got to an excellent vet in Phoenix who has gotten his diabetes under control and he has been regulated, without problems, on 1.5 units of Lantus twice per day for over 6 months. He is such a sweet cat and loves my husband so. We will never be able to thank you enough for all your help.

The only problem we have now is his itchy spots. He scratches until he has to wear his cat-coat to keep him from doing even more damage to himself. We are using olive oil in his food, the vet gave us some expensive oil to spray on his food, but nothing seems to help. As he is embarrassed to go outside in this dopey outfit, just in case some of his friends see him, if you have heard of anything else we might try, he would certainly appreciate your thoughts.

How wonderful that this is the only problem he has now!
Thanks to you.......
Caesar and Sondra

 

I am so glad your kitty is doing so well. You can thank yourself for that. You learned about feline diabetes and took control. Congratulations!

Now about the itching. Could the it be caused by allergies? It may be worth asking your vet about that.

 

He could be allergic to his food, someting in his environment, have emotional issues, fleas/pests, hyperthyroid....

What food does he eat?