New to board, when is best time to test blood?

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (Welcome & Main Forum)' started by vibeskat, Jul 20, 2013.

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  1. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    I am wondering, when is the best time to test blood, before or after a meal? I asked my vet and she didn't give a specific recommendation. I have one test strip left. Yesterday my cat wasn't eating well due to the heat. I tested her yesterday and she clocked in at 88, vet said don't give insulin.

    Today she is eating and I would like to use my last test strip to see if I need to give her insulin tonight. Should I test her before or after eating?
     
  2. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    You should always test just before you give insulin as you don't want to give insulin when she is too low. For newbies that's under 200.

    We also recommend a couple of other tests during the day to keep an eye to see how low she is going, since its that low number you use to adjust dose, but the time of those tests depends on what insulin you are using.. What insulin is it?

    And when did you get the 88? How long after the shot?

    Wendy
     
  3. Hope + (((Baby)))GA

    Hope + (((Baby)))GA Well-Known Member

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    Always test before eating.
     
  4. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Thanks for replying to my question.

    She is on Lantis, getting half a unit twice a day.

    I went ahead and tested about half an hour after eating since I hadn't had a reply and was getting nervous.

    She was at 86 this evening so I did not give insulin tonight. This means she's missed 4 doses.

    Yesterday when she didn't eat in the morning I decided at the last minute not to give insulin before going to work, since I wouldn't be home all day to see if she went low. When I got home in the evening and she didn't eat again I tested and got the 88 reading, no insulin since the previous evening around 10:30 pm. Yesterday she hardly ate anything. I skipped that dose after calling the vet's office.

    Today she's been eating ok so I thought she probably wouldn't be low. She looks like she's feeling better today than yesterday, seems alert.

    I'm out of test strips and lancets so will see if the pharmacy will let me purchase them without a prescription otherwise I will have to wait until Monday to get a prescription. I'm leaning towards not giving insulin if I can't test first.

    Also, spent a bunch of time tonight reading the FAQs etc. on this site.

    Should I test for ketones? My vet hasn't talked about that at all. Someone gave me some test strips when she heard my cat has diabetes but I didn't know what to do with them.
     
  5. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    She has missed 4 doses in a row and is at 86? It doesnt sound like she needs insulin quite yet. I would definately not shoot her until you can get more test strips.

    Did you change the diet or anything after she was diagnosed? Is she eating today?

    Wendy
     
  6. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks for your help.

    She's been on insulin for a couple of months, started at 1 unit twice daily and went to half twice daily.

    The food stayed pretty much the same, using Friskies pate flavors and Fancy Feast pate also. She has stopped eating dry food on her own.

    Found out I can get test strips without a prescription so I'm on my way to get more right now.

    Also, considering possible false low reading from my Freestyle Lite meter, what the vet uses, so I got the same thing. I see now that some people have issues with false readings on this meter. We did compare meters at the vet and mine read slightly higher than the vet's meter, same model.

    Today she ate some, about average at breakfast. She's not been a huge eater lately and I have to coax her to eat throughout the day.

    After testing again if she's still low I'll wait until I can talk to my vet on Monday before giving insulin.
     
  7. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Aarg. My local drugstore is out of the lancets for Frestyle Lite.

    Also, found out I may be able to get a significant discount on the test strips with a card that I got with the meter, but I need a prescription to get the discount.

    Will I be putting her in danger if I skip insulin today and consult my vet tomorrow? She is acting normal, looks ok.
     
  8. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    The freestyle lite isnt a reliable meter for cats - is unreliable at anything over 200 - it says numbers over 200 are lower than they actually are.

    What country are you in? You will need to get a better meter and we can recommend.

    Given her numbers are so low, I would not shoot until you get new strips!

    Wendy
     
  9. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    My vet called me back tonight. She agreed not to shoot until I get test strips. Also, we both thought she might not need insulin. I'm going to get the strips tomorrow at a different drug store and test several times in the next few days to see where she's at.

    I looked at the boards for meter recommendations and thought maybe the Arkray GlucoCard Vital would be good to get. Until I can get the new meter will use the one I have.

    I'm in the US.

    Thanks again for your input.
     
  10. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Many people here use the walmart relion micro or confirm since they are cheap, reliable and don't need too much blood.
     
  11. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    The Arkray Glucocard 01 has interchangeable test strips with the Relion Confirm and Relion Micro.

    You can always learn to freehand the lancet. Just hold it in your hand, at about a 45 degree angle and poke.

    She may be trying to go off the insulin. Pancreas may be healed. Or close to it.
     
  12. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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  13. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    I'm waiting for my vet to send the prescription to the drug store.

    Sorry, my name is Kathy and I live in Chicago.

    My cat's name is Kona (which I think means lovely or pretty in Hawaiian).

    She seems more alert since I've stopped the insulin. I'm hoping that she might be able to go off the insulin. I will get the strips today and then plan to do several test today and tomorrow and see where she's at without the insulin. If she in the normal range we may be able to take her off the insulin.

    Thanks so much for your help.
     
  14. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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  15. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Thanks read through the ear testing tips. I think I am calm enough but it takes several tries to get the blood.

    I waited all day and the vet didn't have time to phone in the prescription. Finally she said come by and she gave me 4 test strips and lancets since we use the same meter.

    Just checked Kona and she's at 106, not high enough to give insulin. Maybe she will not need it.

    I am going to continue testing and the vet said she'd write out the prescription and I can pick it up tomorrow and take it to the drug store myself. Arrg. This shouldn't be this difficult to get a few test strips.
     
  16. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    She might not need it.. keep testing every day and if she stays 40-130 then she is officially OTJ. If she creeps up again though lets discuss.

    let us know how she gets on

    Wendy
     
  17. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    The only thing you need a prescription for, from your vet is for the insulin, and maybe the insulin syringes if Illinois requires that.

    You want 3/10 cc, 5/16" or 1/2" needles, 29-31 gauge, 1/2 unit markings on the barrel of the insulin syringe.

    You can buy test strips at any drugstore that carries that brand. And has them in stock. :eek:
     
  18. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    I have a discount card from Freestyle and might be able to get the strips for $15 if I have a prescription, rather than $50.

    My vet gave me 4 test strips and lancets to hold me over and I will try to get the prescription filled tomorrow.

    Good news today she was 106 at 6:30 p.m. and 98 at 11:30 p.m.

    We're both hoping she might not need insulin. I'm planning to continue testing.

    Thanks for all the advice.
     
  19. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Gotcha! So if you have a prescription for the insulin, the test strips cost you less, correct?

    Remember what Wendy said
    As long as the numbers stay in the low ranges they have been, you should be ok to use that meter. Let's hope for that.
     
  20. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    How many days now has it been since she had insulin?
     
  21. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Yes, the test strips are half price with the discount card from freestyle. I know that I need to get a better meter. So far her numbers are pretty low.

    She's been off insulin for 5 days and her highest reading was 113. This morning she was at 103. Crossing fingers that she won't need to continue with insulin. I'm continuing to check a couple times a day and will do that for a few more days, then probably go down to testing once a day for awhile.
     
  22. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Test at what we would think of as her normal pre-shot times, even though you are not giving her a shot. Then report the numbers. AMBG is a AM test without insulin. PMBG is an evening test without insulin.

    List the numbers here and we can follow along. We like to see the majority of the numbers be below 100. If we can get Kona there, she would be a diet controlled kitty, in remission. What we call OTJ (off-the-juice, insulin being the juice).

    14 days total, with most of those numbers below 100. If she is over 100, we have you give her a bit of food and test again in 3 hours. Food raises the BG, so if her body is producing insulin, the number should go down after a meal.

    Here are the instructions for an OTJ trial:
    • Test at your normal AMPS and PMPS times. Feed multiple small meals throughout the day as much as possible (small meals are less likely to overwhelm a newly functioning pancreas). The morning test is now called the AMBG. The evening test is now called the PMBG.
    • If your cat is green (0-99 human meter) at your normal test times, no need to test further until the next "PS" time, just feed small meals and go about your day. If the numbers are blue (100-199 human meter), feed a small meal and test again after about 3 hours. Food raises BG's. So if the number is lower 3-4 hours after a meal, then the pancreas is working!
    • After 2 weeks, if everything is looking good, we have a party! And boy, do we party hearty. :cool:

    Sometimes, the trial doesn't work the first time and we have to give a little more support by starting the cat with a tiny dose of insulin again. I had to do that with Wink. We simply start the cat back on a tiny dose of insulin to support the pancreas with healing for a bit longer. Our goal is a strong remission and it's better to be safe now then sorry later that you rushed it. With just a little more time we will probably get that strong remission we are looking for.
     
  23. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Ok, I'm working on this.

    My vet suggested testing at various times during the day on several days.

    I will try to test twice daily.

    So far have been testing once a day because I have trouble getting the blood from the ear. It is stressful for her.

    Today she was 85 between meals at 7:30 pm (I'm assuming S.O. gave her evening meal at her usual 4:00). I gave a small snack of Fancy Feast classic afterward.

    I am feeding her many meals a day, basically whenever she seems hungry, not too large as she doesn't eat that much at once.
     
  24. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    sounds good! Keep us posted if you would like, please. We like to know what's going on and cheer you on.
     
  25. Jess and MrCat

    Jess and MrCat Member

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    Jul 16, 2013
    I am also new to the forum (10 days) and I also started with the FreeStyle Lite meter. I just wanted to verify what everyone states on this forum. FreeStyle will give you false low numbers.
    I just switched to the Glucocard Vital and I can absolutely verify that the FreeStyle reads 10 - 40 points LOWER than the Glucocoard (in the 50 - 225 range), meaning that the FreeStyle will give you lower numbers than actual BG.
    I have verified this with the cat and also tested myself and my husband several times with both meters and the same blood sample. Numbers below 100 are also inaccurate (I once tested 89 on FreeStyle but it was actually 97 on Glucocoard). As for my sweet Mr.Cat, he showed 189 this morning on FreeStyle but Glucocard showed him at 229). So....... it seems that the higher the BG, the more inaccurate FreeStyle becomes.

    If you are under 100, Freestyle may show only 10-15 points below actual BG. This isn't too bad since anything under 100 is definitely a no-shoot reading for cats anyway. If you are over 230, I don't know how inaccurate FreeStyle reads because Mr.Cat has never read higher than 231 on any meter.

    Either way, I am loving the Glucocard (same accuracy and strips as Relion). Got it on Amazon for $15, including lance pen and 10 strips.

    Good luck to you and Kona and I hope she stays OTJ!!
    Jess
     
  26. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    I'm wondering, as long as Kona is staying low can I stick with the Freestyle Lite meter and use up the test strips I bought? (even at half price they were $40)
    My meter tested higher than the same brand meter my vet has when we were in the 80 range.
     
  27. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    I think so, my freestyle lite wasn't too bad under 200..
     
  28. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    I tested tonight at her regular evening time for insulin, PMBG 69 before feeding.

    S.O. says it's ok to order a new meter. I am looking at Arkray GlucoCard Vital Blood Glucose Meter Kit from ADW American Diabetes Wholesale.com, don't like to shop at WalMart and there isn't one near me. Is that the right meter? .5 microliter blood sample size.
     
  29. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Arkray Glucocard 01 or Glucocard mini take a smaller 0.3 microliter blood drop. I recommend those over the Arkray Vital for that simple fact.
     
  30. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks, glad I asked about the meter before ordering.

    I was not able to get a AMBG because I could not get blood! I poked about 15 times and then gave up. I guess I should revisit the tips for blood testing. I thought I knew what I was doing but not having any luck. I don't have a microwave, warmed her ears with my hands. Tried both ears! Arrgh.
     
  31. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    I don't have a microwave either. I did a vigorous rubbing of Wink's ears. Fortunately he loves to have his ears played with and scrunched! ;-)

    I was tough sometimes in the winter to get that blood flowing in his ears. I knew I had rubbed the ears enough when I could see that vein standing up just a little bit.
     
  32. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    85 PMBG at 9 pm. I really wish I could get a morning reading. I'll try again tomorrow morning.
     
  33. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    It will come. The home testing can take time to get good at it. Give it a week or two and you'll be a pro.
     
  34. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    I got a morning reading of 103. I think that's pretty good. Before feeding.
     
  35. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    How many days now with numbers too low to give any insulin?
     
  36. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    9 days with levels too low to give insulin!
     
  37. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Congratulations! You're 2/3 of the way through an OTJ trial! With testing twice a day, AM and PM for 14 days of numbers between 40-130 and you can consider you cat to no longer need insulin for now. She'll be considered to still be a diabetic, but a diet controlled diabetic like my foster cat Wink.

    Please, we'd love to have a daily update. So we can cheer you on.


    :RAHCAT Go Kona, Go! All the way to OTJ! :RAHCAT
     
  38. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    How cute, love the cheering kitties.

    Kona says thanks for the words of encouragement.

    I will continue to update you and continue testing for the 2 week period.

    Thanks again for all the advice, it's been very helpful.
     
  39. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    PMBG 81
     
  40. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Is this day 10?
     
  41. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Today is day 12 without insulin! I was happy to get AMBG 85. I think she's going to be in remission. She really hates to be tested and I have more trouble in the morning so getting the am test was good.
     
  42. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Kona has 2 more days,
    before those lazy days lounging in the shade.

    Congratulations on day 12!

    Soon Kona! No peeking ahead to the party menu!
     

    Attached Files:

  43. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Kona's PMBG today 77. Found out S.O. gave her a snack of fancy feast about an hour before testing so that may have made her a bit lower. Still she's only been over 100 twice in the last week, both am readings. I think she's doing well.
     
  44. KPassa

    KPassa Well-Known Member

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    Oct 23, 2012
    How is she doing today? Still on her way to otj_icon ? :mrgreen:
     
  45. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Today is day 14 without insulin.

    Kona's PMBG is 79.

    The highest reading she has had in the past week was 103. The highest reading since off insulin was 115. Lowest reading was 69.

    I have managed to test once a day. Can I stop daily testing and go to a weekly schedule of testing?

    She seems like she's doing really well, more energetic than when she was on insulin. She's eating ok, many small meals a day.
     
  46. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    That's it, tomorrow she is officially OTJ!!!

    Tips to stay otj

    1. Never feed dry - not even treats. If you change wet food types, be 100% sure the new food is also low carb and same low carb % as your current food. Some cats are very carb sensitive and an increase from 3-6% to 8-10% can spike the BG’s. Don’t feed if you aren’t sure!
    2. Weigh every 2 weeks to 1 month to watch for weight changes. Too much of a weight gain can cause loss of remission.
    3. Measure blood once a week, indefinitely. You want to catch a relapse quickly.
    4. No steroids or oral meds with sugar - remind your vet whenever giving you any medication. Always double check.
    5. Monitor food intake, peeing and drinking. If increasing, a sign of losing remission.
    6. Regular vet checks for infection such as dental , ear or UTI. And get them treated quick!

    If she does fall out of remission you need to be more aggressive and resolve issues/ back on insulin as soon as possible as the window for a second remission is tight if any.


    Wendy
     
  47. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Ok, I will test weekly. Plans are to keep her on her current diet.

    I will need to get a scale.

    Thanks for all of your help.
     
  48. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Digital baby scale - try Craigslist, 2nd hand mom to be shops, and our shopping partner Amazon.
     
  49. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    Kona you made it all the way,
    And today you are officially OTJ!

    :RAHCAT Yeah, Kona, congratulations! You made it to the falls! Hope your stay here is long and fun. Say hi to Wink for me. He should be hanging out there somewhere.

    Party time! Here's the cake, only low carb of course. ;-)


    Take out menu for the party
    Italian Beef - from Johnnie's with hot giardiniera.

    Chicago style THIN "cracker crust" Pizza from Villa Nova in Stickney IL, and "Stuffed" pizza from Giordano's

    All those wonderful Mexican Foods Raspberry Guacamole and Topolobampo Tortilla Soup, Frontera Ceviche, Enchiladas Potosinas, Grilled Tatume Squash, Woodland Mushroom Enchiladas from Frontera Grill, and Quesa Fundido, Taquitos De Pollo, Ensalada Pina Colada Con Langosta, Pato En Manchamanteles, and some Salsa Habanera for those how like it spicy from Sol De Mexico

    INDIAN food!!!!!!!!! from Devon Avenue at Khan's BBQ, Usmaniya, Sabri Nehari

    Hot dogs- Chicago style

    Cheese plate from Pastoral on N. Broadway.

    Jabarito's from La Cocina Boricua and La Bomba

    And how about some dessert's from the Middle Eastern Bakery and Grocery on W. Foster Ave and Terzo Piano's goat milk cheesecake to go with our home made peach and ginger ice creams and fresh raspberry and fresh blueberry sorbets.

    Let's dance folks! Kona made it to OTJ!
     

    Attached Files:

  50. KPassa

    KPassa Well-Known Member

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    Oct 23, 2012
    Woohoo! Kona is now otj_icon ! Yay! :RAHCAT party_cat
     
  51. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    Best news all day!!

    A human scale is fine.. Weigh yourself with and without cat and do math...
     
  52. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Yay, Kona is very happy to have a day off from blood testing. We will test again in a couple of days. Thank you all for the online party for Kona.
     
  53. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    I am happy she is OTJ. Would you keep posting on the board and giving moral support to other newbies? Going OTJ is a success other newbies may gain hope from..
     
  54. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks so much for the online party.

    Kona continues to test in the normal range and I'll continue testing once a week to be sure she stays normal.

    Yes, I will try to post in support of other newbies.
     
  55. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Re: Getting higher evening readings

    Kona was doing really well so cut back on the testing. The past two evenings she's been at 119 and 120, higher than I'd like to see. She usually eats a late evening meal at 10 p.m.

    I'm a little concerned. I'll try to get a test again later tonight after feeding, if I stay up late.

    I'm still using the freestyle lite because her levels were looking really good.

    As far as I can tell there is no specific reason for her to be higher. I thought she might have snatched some of the other cats' dry food but was very strict today about keeping any extra dry food out of reach.

    Also, she hasn't been real good about eating. Still have her on Friskies pate and Fancy Feast classic.

    Should I be worried?
     
  56. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Ok, tested her at midnight, about 2 hours after feeding. She was at 149. Not better.
     
  57. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    Is there any chance she might have an infection? Urinary tract infections and dental problems are things you might want to consider

    She's still just a little higher than we'd like to see, so it might be a good idea to get some more tests in for awhile to see exactly how she's doing. Test at AMBG, then every 2 hours (for a normal curve) or 3 hours (mini-curve) for a total of 12 hours. Keep track of when she eats in that time period too and let us know what you find out.

    Make absolutely sure she's not getting into any contraband, like dry food too.

    If she measures high during your curve, it might be a good idea to have her looked over at the vet for signs of infection. Let's see what her numbers are when you've done a little more testing

    Good luck!
     
  58. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks for the input.

    I plan to check her again in a minute, before her 4 pm feeding. She really hates to have her blood taken so it's hard for me to test frequently because she gets less cooperative.

    She has had a history of dental issue so I think infection is a possibility, and I hadn't thought of it.

    We have been strictly monitoring the contraband dry food. I'm hoping she might be better today. She still isn't eating that well. I'll report back.
     
  59. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    Hows she doing? I think a vet trip might be in order if she is still high because if she is falling out of remission you want to catch it early.

    Wendy
     
  60. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

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    Jul 20, 2013
    I think maybe I should take her in to the vet. Tonight she had a reading of 197 at 10 pm! That's the highest I've gotten since I've been testing her at home. Then I tested it again immediately, did another prick and used a new test strip. I got 175. That is a pretty big variation but she is still high.

    Yesterday's reading was 119.

    I'm going to order the new meter tonight because I just don't think the FreeStyle Lite is good enough.

    Oh, am wondering, I gave her some corn on the cob tonight. She always liked it. I didn't consider if that could raise her blood sugar level. I know in humans that corn is considered low glycemic but don't know how it would affect cats. I didn't even think anything of it.

    She has lost a lot of weight and eats irregularly. Some days she's good at eating, other days she doesn't eat much. I'm keeping her on the recommended foods, Friskies pate and Fancy Feast classic.
     
  61. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

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    May 10, 2013
    If you can get to a WalMart, that'd be the best option for the meter. The Relion brand meters are about $15 and the strips are the cheapest around, as well as always available in case you run out.

    The Prime has the cheapest strips at $9 for 50 but takes a little bigger blood sample. The Confirm or Micro are about $18 for 50 but take a really tiny amount of blood
     
  62. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Yes. Vet. Weight loss, elevated glucose, and inappetance tell me something is wrong.

    If you're not a fan of WalMart, the generic version of the Confirm is the Arkray Glucocard 01 or 01 Mini. Available from our shopping partner ADW; link at top of page.

    That may do it; carbs. Cats respond differently from humans.

    Maybe go for the Fancy Feast Kitten Turkey and Giblets - a bit higher fat and protein.
     
  63. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Oh, rats. Didn't realize I needed to click the shop icon to give a credit to the site. I did order the Glucocard 01 and it has shipped.

    I took Kona to the vet today. She has a tumor or growth of some kind on her belly, near a breast. Could be breast cancer. Given her age and health we're not going to do anything about it right now at least. My vet said that some studies have shown that cats who have these types of cancers removed don't really live longer with surgery. Plus, since Kona had a stroke the last time she was sedated we don't really want to do that again.

    As far as the diabetes goes, she's still testing high. I'm waiting for the new glucose meter to come. My vet has the same brand of meter as I do. Hers reads higher than mine by about 20 points. For now we're not going to start Kona back on insulin. We're going to continue to monitor her and decide in a week or two what to do.

    The vet didn't know if corn could have caused her to have high glucose readings but I'm not going to give it to her anymore.

    The vet didn't think that the growth or tumor would cause a spike in blood glucose. She didn't have a temperature and lungs and heart sounded good. Her teeth looked ok.

    We're supposed to try to get Kona to eat more, sometimes she responds to coaxing and some extra attention so will try that.

    The vet didn't think I needed to test that much but I'm considering doing a curve when I get the new glucometer.

    I'll look for the fancy feast kitten food. Is it still low enough in carbs?

    It seems like she is going downhill, maybe from a combination of factors. We're still going to try to do the best we can for her. Not sure what that will mean exactly.
     
  64. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Sorry to hear about the lump. Hoping it's not anything serious and you have many more years with Kona.

    Yes, the Fancy Feast kitten, turkey & giblets is low carb

    As long as you're not giving insulin, it's not required that you do as much testing. I'd continue to test though since her numbers are a little high. If you choose not to treat her with insulin for the diabetes, that's your decision. Only you know what's best in your circumstances. As long as she stays below the renal threshold of about 240, hopefully you won't have any problems with kidneys to add to your problems.

    Good luck to both you and Kona. Sometimes there are just no easy answers.
     
  65. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    I hope the lump is nothing more serious than a cyst. I am glad you stopped the corn - it may likely be an issue to her BG

    hows her BG today?

    Wendy
     
  66. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Kona is doing ok. Yesterday she tested at 127. Today the new meter came, Glucocard 01. Tonight I tested her with both meters and the Arkray tested 146 while the Freestyle Lite tested 142. Pretty close. I guess she is still borderline and right now we are going to continue testing daily and then consult with our vet to see what she thinks.

    Also, we did get some Fancy Feast turkey kitten food and Kona seemed to like it. I think she still isn't eating enough. We keep trying to encourage her to eat more.

    We're not planning on doing a biopsy on the lump since she seems so frail now. I guess we're just going to take it as it comes and see how she does.

    Today she went outside and sat in the sun for awhile. She really liked that. I kept an eye on her of course, good excuse for both of us to get outside.

    Thanks everyone for your help. I'll let you know how she's doing.
     
  67. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Those numbers dont seem too bad. Its important she eats so give her whatever, you can worry about the BG later.

    Wendy
     
  68. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Ok, thanks for all of your input. I've decided to give Kona a break on testing blood glucose today. She seems like she might not be feeling so well tonight.

    We are coaxing her to eat as much as possible. She is very thin.

    I'll test her blood tomorrow.

    Thanks again. I really appreciate that you all take the time to answer my questions and care about Kona.
     
  69. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
  70. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    I think Kona is not nauseous. She does eat some, just not enough. We gave her some salmon that we prepared for dinner and she ate that up so offered her some fancy feast which she at a little of.

    Tonight her BG was 220 testing with the Arkray. Yikes!!!!!!!!

    Ok, so I have some decisions to make and a few questions.

    In the past I had her on a half unit of insulin and I thought she tended to be low. I'm not sure I can measure less than that with my syringes, which do have half unit markings on them. I had trouble being accurate with drawing up the fluid. I did check some tips on it but am not sure I could give her a smaller dose.

    Since she doesn't eat that well in general I'm concerned that I wouldn't be able to keep her on a schedule of regular insulin without her being low frequently. If I start to give insulin again do I have to maintain a regular schedule? It seems that I would need to. My vet mentioned possibly giving once a day instead of twice. Is that a good idea?

    Also, my vet thought I should make the judgment about whether or not to start insulin again based on readings over the next couple of weeks. So I'm trying not to freak out over this one reading which is the highest I've ever gotten. Should I be worried?

    I really want to do a trial of BG levels and won't have the time to do that until Monday.

    Besides that we have this wild card of her having a growth that is near her breast. We don't really want to biopsy since she is kind of frail and it might just be too much for her.

    Thanks for the link on tips for getting cats to eat. I'm going to go look at it now.
     
  71. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Lantus is best dosed twice a day since it only lasts 12 hours in the cats system. You could try giving her something less than 1/2 unit as best you can and see how that does.. Here's a picture of how 1/4 unit looks.

    http://s214.photobucket.com/user/jillsphotos2/media/Lantus Group/025unit-1.jpg.html

    But I would see how she is tomorrow first. I wouldn't shoot if she is under 200. And I would make sure she eats first.
     
  72. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Having high blood glucose levels will slowly cause other organs in her body to fail, but having too low levels can kill quickly. She was probably diabetic for quite some time before she showed enough signs to get the diagnosis, so having her have higher numbers for a few more days shouldn't really cause too much trouble.

    You should probably test for ketones especially if her numbers go much higher..if more than a trace, it's an emergency

    Have you tried counting drops in your syringes? You can pull up some colored water or tea (makes it a little easier to see) and then you "twist" the plunger until it forms a drop at the end of the needle. If you can find out how many drops are in .5, you could get a better idea of where .25 might be.

    Here's what .25 looks like to compare:
    [​IMG]

    Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I know it has to be tough with the possibility of cancer on top of everything else. You might ask your vet what he/she thinks about doing a biopsy. At least then you'd have a better idea of what's to come with her. I know you're concerned about how frail she is, so I'd ask the vet their opinion of her condition and if they think she could handle the biopsy.
     
  73. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    My vet wasn't too interested in doing a biopsy of the lump because of her health. Also, she had a stroke the last time she was sedated for dental work.

    I'll try to get an AMBG and hope that the numbers are better.

    My problem is that I can't really see well enough to find 1/4 unit on the syringe. And also it seems difficult to pull up the insulin to the correct level. I guess if we decide to go back to insulin I'll have to give it a try.
     
  74. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    OK, but if you pull up (for example) 1 unit, you can twist the plunger until a drop forms on the needle...you can count how many drops you get in 1 unit. if you get (for example) 12 drops, then 6 drops would be .5 .....3 drops would be .25...so if you know all this, you can draw up 1 unit of insulin, and throw away 9 drops...what's left is 3 drops..or .25

    Use colored water or tea to see what you can do with it...but that way, the only line you'll have to see is the 1 unit line...and then you have to "waste" the number of drops you have to go leave only 3 drops left...which would be .25

    I think..my brain is tired tonight...if this doesn't make much sense, I'll try again tomorrow unless someone else can explain it better
     
  75. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Miss Myopia (severe nearsightedness) suggests popping over to our shopping partner Amazon and searching for
    A) clip on magnifiers if you wear glasses - Carson Clip and Flip (these worked great for me) come in a variety of strengths up to 4X. Pretty reasonably priced.
    B) visor magnifiers which are on a headband.
    C) stand magnifiers

    Just click the link at the top of the page so FDMB gets credit.
     
  76. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    We are hanging in there. Yesterday Kona tested 176 B.G. so she is on a downward trend from the highs in the 200's that we had.

    One of our feral cats has been having some serious health issues so I have been a bit distracted by that.

    But I'm checking Kona's blood once a day just to get a feel for where she is. She ate well this morning, not as well for the evening feeding.

    The drop system for measuring insulin dosage is genius! If we do have to go back to it I will give that a try. Too bad we have to waste all that insulin though, it's quite expensive.

    Thanks for the tips on magnifiers. If we end up doing insulin again I'll have to try something.
     
  77. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    remember though that the insulin should last up to 6 months if you keep it in the fridge. Not everyone knows that.
     
  78. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Yes, I have a whole bottle of Lantis in the frig. that we never even used once.

    ETA, Kona tested 182 tonight. At least she's not going up over 200. I'd like to see lower numbers, though.
     
  79. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    yes, before you want to think about getting rid of the insulin, you need to go 'officially' OTJ...we love our OTJ kitties...they have such great parties on day 14 of their OTJ trial

    When you think you're ready to try an OTJ trial, here's how we suggest that's done

    Test at your normal AMPS and PMPS times. Feed multiple small meals throughout the day as much as possible (small meals are less likely to overwhelm a newly functioning pancreas).
    If he is green at your normal test times, no need to test further until the next "PS" time, just feed small meals and go about your day. If he is blue, feed a small meal and test again after about 3 hours. If his number is lower 3-4 hours after a meal, then his pancreas is working!
    Sometimes the trial doesn't work the first time and we have to give a little more support in the form of resuming insulin. It's not the end of the world if that happens, we just give him the support he needs. Our goal is a strong remission and it's better to take our time to get that than to rush into remission just to have it fail later on.

    Good luck when you decide you're ready to start your "trial"....we have some pretty good clawyers in the group that might help during your trial. :lol: :lol:
     
  80. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Have been keeping an eye on Kona. She seemed to not be doing well today and not eating well. She didn't eat her 4 pm food and at 5 I decided to test. She was as 292. I decided to try to give .25 unit as suggested by some people on this thread.

    At 5 pm I gave a guess at .25 lantis. Then I gave her some hamburger which she ate. At 6:30 I gave her some Fancy Feast. We had to go out, though she was looking better and I was encouraged because she ate.

    When I got home at 10:50 I tested right away and got a 33 reading with no symptoms. I immediately retested with a bigger sample and got 50 using the Arkray meter. Right after testing I gave her some Friskies with gravy since it is supposed to be higher carb. She ate some of it. I gave more Friskies pate and she ate a little of that. Then I gave her some more hamburger since I was pretty sure she would eat that. I've left her with the food to see if she will eat a little more and then will test again.

    If she is still low should I give maple syrup?

    I feel like I did the wrong thing giving her the insulin. We were thinking that she just didn't look good and when I got the high numbers I figured it was worth a try.
     
  81. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    OK...retest her in 30 minutes and see where she's at...if she's still below 50, give her a little more of the "gravy" part of the "gravy lovers" kinds of foods. When they go below 50, we want to get them up, but not feed them SO much that they won't eat later if we need them to

    Once she's above 50, don't feed her anymore and restest in 30 minutes...as long as she stays above 50, you need to keep testing every 30 minutes or so for 2 hours after the last time you gave her any food to make sure she STAYS up

    If she drops below 50 again, another couple teaspoons of gravy (or Low carb food with a few drops of Karo, honey or syrup) and that "2 hour" rule starts over

    You didn't do anything wrong..that 292 indicated maybe she needed it, but if she wasn't feeling well to begin with, I'd want to figure out why before restarting it based on just one blood glucose reading.

    Hope Kona feels better soon!

    Kathy...if Kona drops below 50 again (or is still below 50 when you retest), please go to the first post here (the very first one you posted) and add the 911 icon..just "edit" that first post and add the 911....it will help get you someone to help you quickly
     
  82. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks.

    Tested again at 11:55 and she's at 111, going up.
     
  83. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    That's good...don't feed her anymore and just keep testing for awhile longer...although it sounds like you gave her enough food to send her pretty high...and don't be surprised if you get some whacky numbers tomorrow

    Glad she came up for you!
     
  84. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Just tested 166 at 12:40 am. Now I'm having trouble getting blood, too late at night. Will stay up to test at least once more.
     
  85. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
  86. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Yes, she's been high lately. I thought I was kind of on that very small dosage. like in the photo you linked to. I am just a bit scared of the whole insulin thing. Especially because I'm not able to be around all the time in case she would go low. I often have to be out of the house for work. I wouldn't want to leave her and have her go extremely low while I"m gone. Also, she still eats very tiny portions of food per serving. We have to try to get food into her whenever we can.
     
  87. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
  88. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    At one point when I was researching how to shoot a small dose of insulin I found a youtube video on how to measure out drops from a syringe to figure out fractions of a unit dosages. I can't find it again. I'm wondering if anyone knows of this video and if so, could post a link to it.

    I took Kona to the vet again today since she hasn't been eating much and has had bg in the 300's quite regularly.

    The vet checked urine for ketones and she didn't show positive for that.

    Right now she suggested syringe feeding because Kona isn't eating and has lost about a pound since the last visit. She doesn't want to try insulin again right away since Kona isn't eating enough. I'm also hesitant since the last time I did give insulin she went down to 50.

    Anyway, that's the status update for Kona.

    If anyone has that link to the video I'd appreciate it if you could post it.

    thanks.
     
  89. akbahsMum

    akbahsMum Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2012
    :RAHCAT
    So delighted to see you and puss are OTJ!!
    Keep up the good work. You are a good catmother.
     
  90. KPassa

    KPassa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2012
    I don't know about a video, but there is this post on measuring a dose consistently that has pictures.
     
  91. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks, it has the same info as the video I had found. My vet is interested in seeing it.
     
  92. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Is she eating better now? We have tips for enticing her to eat if you like?
     
  93. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    We are having a hard time with Kona. Her BG numbers have been high and we're trying to give 1/4 unit Lantis. However, it doesn't seem to be working that well and I'm considering going to 1/2 unit. BUT she isn't eating well. We've tried many of the suggestions to get her to eat and she still isn't eating enough. I'm thinking I'm going to syringe feed tonight and try 1/2 unit. She was at 238 this morning before feeding. We gave insulin 1/4 unit at 10:15 a.m.
    Tonight at 10:05 pm she tested 402, then I immediately re-tested and got 394.

    How long should it take for the insulin to start bringing the numbers down?

    Last night she was at 321 before eating and before insulin. Then 1 hour 20 minutes later she was at 341, up 20 points.

    I'm having trouble understanding these numbers and why we are getting them.

    She is eating Friskies pate and Fancy Feast classic, no dry food.

    Is 402 an emergency on the high end?
     
  94. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    The worry when their numbers are high is ketones. Are you checking Kona?

    If her BG are running high, plus she's not eating, she could be starting DKA and that's an emergency. If you test her urine and get more than a trace of ketones, get her to the vet immediately!! You can get ketostix at any pharmacy over the counter...they're about $9 at WalMart

    What would REALLY help is if you'd start keeping track of her numbers on our Spreadsheet so we can see how she's doing. It's almost impossible to advise you on dose adjustments without seeing where she's been and how she's responded to insulin in the past.

    Here's How to get a spreadsheet

    The increase of 20 points after eating isn't unusual, but I'd be concerned about Kona not being under better control. It's totally possible she needs more insulin, but again, without having the spreadsheet, it makes it really hard to say. We don't like to "guess" when it comes to increasing!

    Another quick thing that will help is for you to go ahead and add some information to your Signature Box. You already have your name and Kona's there, but if you could add her diagnosis date, what type of insulin you're using, which meter you use to test with, and any other health issues Kona has, it'll keep us from having to ask the same questions over and over again. Just go to the User Control Panel (top left) and click on Profile...then "Edit Signature"....add the info and "Submit"

    As for the eating, how much does she weigh and how much do you feed her?
     
  95. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks. It's going to take me some time to figure out the spreadsheet.

    Kona weighs about 6 lb. lost a lot of weight. She's old, probably 12 years at least.
     
  96. Chris & China (GA)

    Chris & China (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    The spreadsheet isn't really too hard. You have to sign into Google, but if you use the spreadsheet that's included in that link, all you have to do is put the numbers in...it'll do the rest

    If you need help, there are others here that can help you too!
     
  97. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Remember the way Lantus works.. its not the preshot number that you base dose changes on - its the mid cycle number - the lowest point of the cycle. because you don't want to raise the dose if this number is already low and push them into hypo!

    So, can you get some mid cycle tests?

    here is an example of how lantus works to bring the blood sugar down

    +0 - PreShot number.
    +1 - Usually higher than PreShot number because of the last shot wearing off. May see a food spike in this number.
    +2 - Often similar to the PreShot number.
    +3 - Lower than the PreShot number, onset has started.
    +4 - Lower.
    +5 - Lower.
    +6 - Nadir/Peak (the lowest number of cycle). This is the number you base dose changes on. It does vary by cat though.. anywhere from +4 to +8.
    +7 - Surf (hang around the nadir number).
    +8 - Slight rise.
    +9 - Slight rise.
    +10 - Rising.
    +11 - Rising (one of the quirks of Lantus/Levemir: some cat's blood glucose numbers dip around +10 or +11... not to be confused with nadir).
    +12 - PreShot number.

    Wendy
     
  98. vibeskat

    vibeskat Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2013
    Thanks for the info. on how Lantus works and also on the spreadsheet. I will try to set it up tomorrow. I don't have a google account so I guess I'll have to get one.

    We're getting Kona to eat a little more and are hanging in there with giving the insulin.

    Also, I'll try to get a mid-cycle reading tomorrow.
     
  99. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Good luck! let me know if you need help!
     
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