New to group. Started Prozinc

Hi,

My cat, Copper, recently dx w/FD 2wks ago. We changed all of diet and he went down over 200pts. Finally started on Prozinc this morning. Trying to set up the spreadsheet and not sure how to put in doses that are converted to U100syringes. Is that what fat means? I am using u40 insulin.

His reading this morning amps was 238. Gave 3u on U100 syringes. 2+hrs he is 212. I hope he will fall more. When do you start to notice a change? This is his 1st day on insulin. I am extremly nervous!

So glad i'm part of the support group.

Lori and Copper.

p.s.
How do you put a title in your SS? Don't know SS too well.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

 

Welcome Lori and Copper cat_pet_icon

If your using the conversion chart you would still post what you would give with a u-40 syringe so if you gave 3units on u-100 your actual dose would be 1.2 units of prozinc is that what the vet told you to start copper on ??

 

Hi and Welcome Lori and Copper,

I'm guessing he's an orinch boy, am I right?

Your spreadsheet looks good. Maybe Sue can help you get the name pretty but the link works just fine for now.

Marty is right, you would post what the dose is for the Prozinc not what the converted measurement is or we will freak out and think you are over dosing him. :shock:

I'm trying my hand at linking the conversion chart if you don't have it yet. I have it printed out and hanging on my fridge so I can check the dose every time. http://www.felinediabetes.com/insulin-conversions.htm If it doesn't work I'll try again.

Can you tell us more about Copper, how old is he, does he have any other health issues. I'm glad you were able to switch him to a low carb diet before starting insulin. Isn't it amazing what a difference a proper diet can make.

Anyway, welcome to our group, come back and ask whatever questions you have.

Robin

 

Hi, and welcome!

I don't have much advice at this point because I'm still trying to figure my own boy out, but you've found the right place. Folks here are really helpful and friendly, and the PZI group is small enough we kinda all know each other.

Most kitties reach the nadir (low point in the curve) around 6 hours after their shot, although it can be shorter or longer.

Good luck for you and Copper!

 

Hi Everyone,

Copper is a Maine Coon(orange). He was adopted from Humane society when he was 7mths old. He is 7.5yrs old and was 23lbs. He is now only 17lbs from the FD. Noticed Copper was urinating and drinking a lot about a month ago. Then he started loosing weight. Also, his back legs seemed weak when he walked and couldn't jump up on things anymore. So took to Vet#1 and they did BG and was 420. Said to switch copper to WD wet and come back in a week. Got online after a couple of days and started researching and found out about the BG hometesting. I did several BG checks and he was in range of 190-270's. Then i switched him Fancy Feast classics(all under 10% carbs) and his BG leveled range was 191-242. Went to another vet(#2) and they inhouse checked him and was @272. Perscribed the prozinc 2u BID. I tried to get her to prescribe the compounded PZI(BCP) but they didn't want to do it. I still felt that 2u BID was too much. So got a phone consult w/Dr. Pierson and she recommended 1u BID to start out with. The current vet took no blood work or urine sample and just didn't seem to care about the sliding scale. Currently trying to find another vet that will be updated on FD. Hard to do in our area of US. I would like to switch to lantus eventually because of my schedule. In the meantime, Dr. Pierson is going to follow my case for a couple of days.

Was a nervous wreck today giving him his 1st shot, but he seemed to do ok. He doesn't like all the ear pricks though. Who would. I'm hoping to eventually not have to test so much. He is such a good cat!!!

So looking forward to getting to know you all and hear your stories.

Lori and Copper
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

 

Lori, it does get better I promise :smile: , I use to have a panic attack before every shot :roll: now callie waits for her shot, I'm glad the other vet told you to go to 1 unit , and about vets grrrrrrrrr, you know your cat and you know what your heart tells ya listen to it cat_pet_icon. you will have good days and bad days but take it one day at a time were always here to talk to ;-) my vet was against home testing I'm not going to give my callie a shot without checking her bg first !

with prozinc it will take a while for it to settle in and for copper to get use to it stick with the dose for 3 to 5 days and keep checking bg to see what insulin is doing , the testing gets easier to remember to give treats and lots of love :YMHUG: cat_pet_icon

 

Hi Lori,
Glad you were able to consult with Dr. Lisa, and that she recommended cutting back to 1u. If she is watching your case, you probably can't ask for a better pair of eyes.

Those numbers certainly did not indicate a starting dose of 2u. I'm guessing the vet is more used to treating dogs, and weight comes into the equation with them, but not with kitties.

I'm just curious about what you said about insulin types. Was there a particular reason you wanted PZI over Prozinc? I treated Bob with compounded PZI, so just wondering.

Also, what is the correlation to using Lantus over Prozinc based on your schedule?

You've made great choices on food. And you have seen for yourself what lower carbs has done to Copper's numbers in a short amount of time.

What area of the US are you in? There might be another member fairly close who may be able to make a vet recommendation.

Oh, you asked what "fat" meant regarding doses... That's a way of saying "just a little more than". Say you shot a "fat 1.25" that'd be just a hair over the line you'd use for a "normal" 1.25 (3.0 on a U100 syringe). People also use "skinny" when it's just a smidge less than a normal dose.

Carl

 

Lori I forgot to mension this when callie was first dx in june she was the same as copper with her back legs , was not jumping on things , wouldn't go upstairs , when she would walk from room to room she would go a few steps stop for a while go a little bit more stop for a while , I asked the vet about neurophathy she said it was to soon , well I didn't listen to her I got callie start on zolaline right away now she is running all over the place and up and down the stairs and jumping again!

here is the link if you want to check it out I hope this helps you and copper :smile:

http://www.lifelinknet.com/siteResource ... baline.asp

 

Just took the +9BG and it was 163. Still going down. I thought the prozinc went out of system in 8hrs. Still working.

Dr. P prefers lantus to use. Mainly because it last 12hrs and it has a storage effect. My oldest daughter is involved with musical theatre and is at play rehersals and performances until 9 or 10pm some nights. So i'm gone late afternoon until late at night. I cannot check BG usually after 3pm most days. She also says lantus does a better job in getting cats into remission. She also said the the PZI(BCP) is the best choice over prozinc. But my current vet will not go there. This seems to be working so far. She was wonderful to talk with and learned so much. Wish i had gotten him help earlier, but just didn't know.

I will look up the supplement that you gave your kittie for back legs. Encouraged that he will get better. How did you give it to your cat? How much? I think this is the saddest thing to see him suffer with.

So glad i'm on this site.

lori

 

Lori,

Thanks for the feedback. I didn't know Dr. P. had a preference on insulin, but good to know. I'm thinking that the reason she would prefer PZI over Prozinc is because PZI is "bovine" and developed for kitties, where Prozinc is "human" insulin like Lantus. Don't want to put words in her mouth but that's my guess.

Prozinc can last anywhere from 6-12 hours. It's that old "ECID" thing. Some days they get more duration than others. If it happens routinely, it can be an indication of too much insulin, but this is probably just an odd day. It could also be that today, his pancreas decided to kick in a little insulin of its own. He may also have had a late nadir in between +6 and +9, and may just be starting to rise back up. Your next test will tell you a lot.

OK, so Copper's day so far:
AMPS - 238
+2 212
+6 187
+9 163

I'll be online for a while, so if you get more numbers, post them.

Important note - if his number is not going up at +12 (PMPS), you don't want to give him a shot. Or food. You need to hold off on both for like 30 minutes and test him again. Never shoot into a "falling number". If that scenario develops, let us know.

Carl

 

hi Lori and Copper
Welcome to the site
Glad you found us here
Please ask all the questions youhave , we are here to help
and it looks like everyone is answeting a lot of your questions
Dont worry and yes the B12, I give to my Shakepeare
He has BAD neuropathy for a year so I was giving him 5 pills a day
I boil chicken and wrap the pills in the chicken
I find that helps him eat the pills
good luck and keep us posted and ask away
Denise and SHakes

 

Hi Lori and Copper! Welcome!
cat_pet_icon

 

Actually PZI might only last 6 to 8 hours but the Prozinc is supposed to last for 10 to 14 hours and is a mid duration insulin giving you some overlap if your lucky, not all kitties get that much duration.

Check for a rising number and post it here if you can.

 

HELP

Just got the PMPS and it was 185. It is on the edge of scale. Should i give the .50u or .25u? Just a little nervous here. 1st day on insulin. Not used to doing this yet.

lori

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

 

Hi Lori,
Glad you posted. Always, always ask if you aren't sure. OK, that 185 would indicate that his number has started to come up. It looks like he dropped between 75-100 points maybe from AMPS to nadir today. I think he would be okay with .5u, but if you are hesitant, you can go with .25. It's you who is going to worry all night about it! No, your concern is exactly what it should be. It is your first day, and his.
Go with what makes YOU comfortable..... it's always the nighttime shots that confuse us, lol. Kitties can't do this during daylight when everyone is awake and available.
The usual advice to "newbies" is to not shoot if below 200. I think you should probably go with .25 tonight. You don't want to totally skip if you can avoid doing so, because then you "lose the momentum". 185 is close to the "line in the sand", but given what he did on 1u, .25 should not be a problem.

Carl

 

THANK YOU! I went ahead and gave the .25u. Thanks for making me feel good about this. Should i still test him +3hr pr 4+hrs? I'm tired and need to rest after the stress today.

lori

 

You can test anytime. You also need your sleep! If you want to do one more test before bed, it can be whenever you want to do it. But you don't have to if you and Copper have had enough fun already today. :smile:
You're doing a fantastic job so far, Lori!

Carl

 

THANK YOU!!!

 

HELP! +6hr higher than am shot

Just took copper's +6hr reading and he is @235. This is higher than the am before morning shot. What do i do?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

 

It's okay. It's noy substantiallu higher. He's having a relatively flat cycle, since meters have a 20% variance. Probably a reaction to the long surf and low dose last night. Until he gets used to a dose (3-4 days) some cycles will be better than others. Just check again later. The numbers are nice-I still haven't gotten Cass there after 3 months.

 

Thanks! I know i've been so scared giving the insulin and not wanting to overdose him. I'm afraid it will go up higher now @+8, +10, etc. I know some people dose as early as 8hrs on prozinc. Just don't want to OD

 

Welcome Lori & Copper.
His numbers look pretty good overall.
Thats pretty common for the number to rise a little at +4 and its not much different than AMPS so basically its almost the same, he is just staying flat. Could be a bounce from overnight, he may have dropped lower than hes seen.
And when first starting this insulin, its common for the nadirs to move around anywhere from +4 to +9 for the first 45 days until their body adjusts. (That is supposed to be true for Prozinc)

 

Lori,
you want to keep him on a 12 hour schedule. I'll 'splain later....(at work right now).
Carl

 

ok

 

Hi Lori,
I was at work, obviously, when I last posted. I just wanted to get that out there quick.
OK, I'll try to explain why the 12 hour schedule.

As Robin said earlier in this thread, Prozinc is intended to last 10 or more hours, where PZI can be a shorter duration like 6-8 hours. Thing is, it's different with every kitty that uses either one of them.

As you said, you have seen where some people shoot every 8 hours here. The people who do have got months of data recorded, and the data indicates that their kitties might be better suited to 3 doses a day (TID) rather than 2 per day. In some cases the data has proved to be correct. Kim (and Kitty) are an example of a successful switch to TID. Others have tried it and have it not work out. Right now there are two kitties who are trying TID. Marty is trying TID with Callie. Lisa was on BID, changed to TID, and is currently back on BID with Cass. In both those cases, the jury is still out on which was works best.

With Copper, you've just started Prozinc, and there just isn't enough data to determine what the correct dose every 12 hours is yet. Yesterday, on 1.25, he seems to have gotten pretty long duration, more than we probably expected. So much so that last night, we had to try and figure out how much to cut that back. To me, it looks like the .25 worked just fine for last night, because he didn't have a high number this morning at all. We don't know how "low" he went overnight, but he didn't rise too much from PMPS to AMPS today. Today his cycle looks weird, because it doesn't look like he dropped, but instead rose a little during the day. Unfortunately, it's impossible to tell exactly why, because we can't go back yet to see if it's happened before, so we can't see any pattern that is repeating.
Today's curve, or lack thereof, is traditionally an indication of "too much insulin". Traditionally. But for Copper, it's the first time that we see it. So it's too soon to say "yep, too much insulin, reduce the dose". Today is just "what it is". It's numbers on a spreadsheet that in the future will be helpful, but right now, it's just "huh?, what was that all about?"

There is a protocol developed by a vet named Dr. Hodgkins, that basically goes like this..... shoot the insulin, then test every couple of hours, and when you get a number high enough to shoot, then shoot again". It can be 3 or 4 times a day, and the doses are usually not the same, but based on a scale that is adjusted according the the meter readings. It is called Tight Regulation. It is very hard to do, and we've had a couple people show up here in the past couple of months that had been using it, but didn't see the results that proponents of that protocol said they'd get. Nobody here uses TR for PZI or prozinc. Not THAT protocol anyway. The people doing TID use a somewhat similar method, but keep to a strict 8 hour dose schedule rather than walking around all day with a loaded syringe just waiting to see a "shootable number".

Anyway, the primary reason that I wanted to tell you to stick with a 12 hour schedule is because you need to keep the time constant so that as you collect data every day, the data "makes sense" and will help you determine how Copper reacts to a set dose and schedule, so that logical decisions can be made when determine if a dose increase or decrease seems like what needs to happen. Once you've collected enough numbers for a given dose, things will make more sense as patterns emerge from your spreadsheet.

OK, all that said..... none of the numbers you have recorded so far are bad. Not drastically high or low. If you start seeing numbers like 50 and 450, we'll really have to put our thinking caps on. Right now, living in numbers of 250 or lower, Copper is doing super (so are you by the way), and you both are in a lot better shape than most people who've only been here for a week usually are!

Carl

 

I agree that you are doing great. There are alot of people who have been here a long time who would kill for those numbers.

I'm glad you didn't shoot any more than the .25 unit last night because it gave you a nice AMPS number.

Your PMPS tonight will tell us alot. Please come back and post it.

I also think you should start thinking about lowering your dose.

 

My PMPS is 261. Much higher than has been. Talked with Dr. P and she said test and shoot to scale. So did, although very nervous about giving dose. It was 1.5u. oh please tell me i did the right thing? I'm sure i will be up all night now watching every move he makes and testing again all night. After reading these posts, i'm beginning to question myself now.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub ... utput=html

 

Um, what scale are you using? Most of us use a consistent dose. A few have a scale based on lots of data on their cat. It's that ECID thing.

 

Breeeaath. Believe me, every one of us knows exactly how you feel right now and how terrifying and overwhelming the first few weeks are.

If your PMPS had dropped down below 230 that would have indicated too much insulin but it didn't.

I would never in a million years dream of disagreeing with Dr. Lisa, you are in very good hands with her watching over you.

Breeeaath.

What scale are you using? Did Dr. Lisa put it together for you?

 

It is a conservative scale of Dr. Hodges. She just emailed me and said i did fine. i just about went into a heart attack. I'm still shaking.

 

If Dr. Lisa says you did fine, then you did fine.
Can you post the scale you have so all of us are aware of what it looks like?

Carl

 

Hi Carl,

There was a mix-up yesterday. I was under the impression that Lori was still with the YDC group and using their sliding scale. (She was using a VERY conservative one...) I had suggested that she come here but was not aware she had done so yet.

So...not to worry about the sliding scale issue.....just move forward as per usual for the FDMB.

 

Thank you Dr. Lisa! and thanks for helping Lori out. I know that after talking to you, she feels a lot better about things.

Carl