new to this board

Hi all, my name is Inge and have a cat "Ching" that was diagnosed with fatty liver about a month ago...and yesterday with diabetes...I'm a bit at a loss at the moment...we started the insulin yesterday at 5 pm..his blood sugar was 22...then after a frustatrating strugle this morning ( getting blood out of his ear was like drawing blood out of rock : ( I finaly managed to get a reading at 6am (15) and he's had his dose of insulin...my question is how in the heck do I manage both the fatty liver and now this with a cat that hardly want's to eat anything...and when he does it's tiny amounts spread through out the the day..I had been force feeding him 1 can of Resque a day (brocken up into 6 feedings about 2 hour apart).. I dought if I can get that down to only 2...and make sure he gets enough calories in him....and keep his blood sugar as low as possible??? Any advise would be god sent...as I am a totaly newbie...also he is one of 7 cats that own me...

 

Welcome aboard to the place you never wanted to be.

Eating is majorly important.. at this point, try anything. Some successful foods have been parmesan cheese sprinkled on food, Kentucky Fried chicken or equivalent, yogurt(!!) deli meat, baby food with no onion.

Did your cat ever get a feeding tube for the HL? Dr. Lisa DVM a vet that we are lucky enough to have frequenting our site (our self proclaimed resident feline nutrition nag) is a big fan of them, if a cat wont eat and that they are not as invasive as people think..
http://www.catinfo.org/feedingtubes.htm

By your numbers (22, 15) are you by chance in Canada or Europe? You will see big big numbers as most on the board have adopted the US measure mg/dl not mmol.
http://gorbzilla.com/usvalues.htm

Hopefully you get more responses soon. We are here for you.

Come on Ching! Eat eat eat!!

 

thanks so much for your responce...I'm based in South Africa...as you can see I'm stuck pretty much between a rock and a hard place...he does eat Hills hairball and hills KD ( I have one cat with kidney problems and my 17yrs olf Tiga with kidney and heart problems)..and some tinned food...but with his habit of eating when he wants makes it hard with regard to the diabetes. No he's never had a feeding tube...I've been feeding him by hand...gave up on the syrings ages ago...I'm going to try and limit him to 4 feeds...but I can see he feels pretty grotty after a force feed...but which is the lesser of the 2 evils????

 

My Merlyn didnt like syringe feeding at first but then he started sucking it down..and it would sometimes start him eating. You are the best judge of wether your cat will tolerate the syringe feeds. What I did for Merlyn was puree his food, so that he could lick rather than chew.. and if syringing was needed it was already in a form to do that.

Does he like canned/tinned food? Because lower carb canned food and no dry food can help with regulation, lower blood glucose levels. That K/D has junky ingredients and depending on your kidney cats blood panel results, a canned food diet might be better for him/her too.

One of the other risks of a diabetic cat not eating, besides HL, is ketones...you do not want ketones. Most pharmacies should have ketostix that measure ketones in the urine, or ketodiastix which measure ketones and sugar in the urine. Since he isnt eating well I would try to test some pee. Not eating, high blood sugar, and infection are all things that contribute to a cat forming ketones.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/ketones.htm

By the way, congrats on blood testing already! You are already a member of the Vampire club.

 

Welcome. You are in a good place. I would love to chat but I have had a rough couple of days. Read thru the posts and if you have any questions please feel free to ask. There are a lot of people here and they really helped me out with Spicey's hypo incident last mon.

 

I will post in the Pzi Forum to link here. I hope those first numbers are not mg/dl.


Hopefully it is the other measurement.

But just in case PLEASE Read this:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2203

 

:-|

 

What kind of insulin are you using and how many units are you giving?
How is the cat acting?

 

Thanks for being alert Tajana...but stay cool!! ;-) Inge is in South Africa, they use Mmol there like Canada. To get US numbers use this conversion chart
http://gorbzilla.com/usvalues.htm

 

I don't want you to be frightened about what I have posted but hypo is a serious thing.

So if your readings from the glucose meter are mg/dl please check out the link. Even if the readings are mmol/l it is always a good idea to read that just so you know the symptoms.

 

ok sorry i guess i should check out the conversion chart.

Boy do I feel stupid now :YMSIGH:

I am Sorry.

 

Its ok, coming off your own hypo makes one more alert to other possibles. Just found your name is David not Tajana, sorry ;-)

I am a little nervous too because noone is around tonight and I havent done "newbie" posts in a while. Before I helped Merlyn cross over the Bridge he had been OTJ for almost 4 years.

 

When spicy wouldn't eat the first time I had to hand feed her tuna, knowing that tuna wasn't good for her but she ate it.
The next day she wouldn't eat it so I went to the grocery store and bought a chicken breast and cooked it for her and cut into small pieces so she could eat it.
She wouldn't eat it. After her first hypo she also had a urinary tract infection. And once that issue was addressed she started eating again, but she wasn't then I switched her food and she started eating that. I now measure her food before and after to make sure she is eating, but the food she is on is high in carbs and I need to switch her.

So I don't know if I can help much not having that much experience in that area. Hopefully others will have more knowldege though.

 

Thank you all for your posts...I see that I will be making alot of new friends...if you guys can forgive my ignorance on this subject...I didn't even know about lippoo..??fatty liver...ask me anything about kidney or heart..or horse ailments ; ) Ching is on 2 units Lantus per day...force feeding 1tin Royalcanin rescue...and just bought the Royal canin diebetic cubes...though seeing every thing I've snooped out over the web that might not have been a great idea...but then it's rpobably better than the hills that the other cats are getting...at 12pm his blood sugar was 15.5mmol/L that would be just over 270mg/dL...though if I had to check now they would probably be sky high again...after his feed...but won't check them till 6pm this evening...not after the fiacso this morning...Ching already has symptoms of early ketoacidosis...but I have noticed he's hogging the water bowls less...and is weeing less..so that has to be good...as for chioces in foods this side is not great...he does onjoy a wee bit of Fancy Feast...Whiskas sachettes on occassions...I know will probably get a big slap on the wrist for that one...I did try the raw chicken diet in 2007...but lost a cat to heart failure( worst death you could ever experience : ( and though probably not dew to the diet.. got a big fright from that....as there are risks to getting it wrong....so back I went to the science diets...as feeding raw mince/chicken or fish isn't balanced enough...maybe I should breed mice...you know in Holland they used to sell day old frozen chicks..they went down a treat with my cats then...anyway enough from me for the moment...off to check on Ching again...thanks again...so glade I found this group

 

Hi inge... I'm just seeing this post now... We have another member in South Africa and sent to her a PM so that she might be able to contact you about available foods and such. It's so much easier if someone has done some leg work - especially when you are stressed.


Also, there are a ton of foods that are better than the Science Diet but not raw... it's not one or the other. I feed raw and love it. So does my cat... that's why I love it. But I don't make it, I buy it premade. You might be able to find some commercial raw if you search enough and call around. Dr. Lisa has recipes on her website too www.catinfo.org if you want to have another go at the raw.

 

fatty liver or hepatic lipidosis is a complication seen sometimes in untreated or newly diagnosed diabetic cats. Lack of insulin makes it difficult for them to metabolize their food, and their high blood glucose levels make them feel like crap so they become inappetant. The body struggles to get nutrients so it the liver tries to metabolize fat and it doesn't do too well. It is important to catch it before it becomes true fatty liver; giving insulin and food and finding a good balance of the two is your key to getting past this, otherwise a cat may need a feeding tube, etc.

 

Hiya Jen, I'm afraid that with Ching it was the other way around...he was diagnosed with hepatic lipidosis about a month ago and have been battling with that ever since...he was getting better and starting to eat properly...when the whole drinking tons of water and swamping the litter box started a few days ago..he was then diagnosed with diabetes...since that epasode he is still eating...but tinny amounts...so had to resort to force feeding again....( by hand)....yesterday eveing just before his shot he was up to 23.7mmol/L..over 360mg/dl...and wasn't a very happy kitty...this morning down to 17.8mmol/L...but looking alot more perky...he is eating small amounts again..but might have to force feed again if his calorie intake doesn't tally to his requirment...now my question is how many times a day should I feed him...and what amounts....as it stands now I'm feeding him...or rather he's eating tiny amounts as he wishes...I force fed him a small amount of rescue just before his shot this morning...and will probably have to this eveing as well...am wondering if I should help him along as well after his check at 12pm....sorry just thinking out loud here...the vet hasn't realy adviced me as to a suitable routine...except that he wants me to get him to the 2 feeds aday...
Victoria...thanks for that...need all the help and advice that I can get as I'm stabing in the dark here...

 

hi all ...ok things a wee bit a muck here....chated to vet nurse about eating too little with the hepatic lipidosis issue....had agreed with her to still carry on force feeding...but have done very...very low amounts today...with trying to push Ching to eat himself....his blood sugar levels have been raising all day to tonight 26.7...I didn't even attempt to feed him with this level...sorry haven't got my conversion table infront of me...phone the vet to speak to the nurse..she handed me over to the vet...he say's...hold off force feeding...issolate him with high protien food....sounds reasonable....now the problem I have..is I have an open plan house...with the only room I can close off is the bedroom....Tigga...rules supream there sleeping next to my head every night...Tiga is 17...my top love....is on Fortekor 5 and Norvasc...for the past 3 years...very early heart problems and kidney failure..but both caught very early....no my question is..would it harm Tigga to eat Chings High protien diet..as I would like to not upset Tigga by shutting the door on my bedroom for only Ching??? Will it harm Tigga??..need an answer asap as it evening here in SA ; )
Thanks in advance..

 

I am going to add a 911 to your post. It is serious when a kitty is not eating and diabetic. Hope to get some eyes here that have been in your predicament.

Darn - can't get it to put it on the board.

 

Personally, I would not hold any food from him. He needs to eat whatever he can and will eat. Have you tried canned dog food?


He needs to eat... forcing him to choose a high protein food or nothing may not give you the results you want. If you can mix in with or sprinkle onto the food something enticing like parmesan cheese or crushed up kibble, that might help. I used to grind up Temptations and put that on the food to get Sundance to eat it. Also, if the tummy is upset, you might be able to help that by feeding him a bit of plain yoghurt - no flavours or diet... just plain. It can really help ease a tummy and get them more interested in food. If he won't eat it willingly, you may let him take it from your finger or put some on the top of his paw so that he has to lick it off to clean it.

Does the non eating cat like any people food? I had to start Sundance off with Pringles one time. Of course before she was diabetic she loved them and would get a half a chip once a month or something when I had them... but then nothing when she was diet controlled. Once she was not eating, I didn't care about numbers... I just had to get her to eat... so out came the Pringles.

 

Short term - do you have a crate or a bathroom where you could isolate him with the food (and then try all the ideas Vic gave you)

If I were you - with the hepatic lipadosis and the high numbers, I would ask the vet about a feeding tube. The people who have used them say they are not difficult to use and can make all the difference. Here is some info: http://www.catinfo.org/feedingtubes.htm

 

ok tad of a mix up here...Ching is nibbling....but need to keep him in my bedroom to see if he nibbles enough..big problem is Tigga my 17 year old...he sleeps next to my head..... how is on the Fortekor and Norvasc.....can he eat the diabetic food with out seriuos problems....Ching I force feed when I have to...have been for the past month...he eats if he wants to or not....but I preffer that he wants to...been there done that with the fatty liver for the past month...

 

Ok... I'm sorry if I missed this somewhere (I sort of have a hard time reading blocks of text)... So, what is the food you are feeding that you are worried about? Most diabetic low carb foods are good for all cats. What health issues does the non-diabetic cat have which are concerning you?

 

he needs to eat with fatty liver. This is VERY important. He needs to eat as much as he wants, and if he doesn't want to eat, you will need to force feed him.

 

Oh boy, that is a tough situation. Bottom line is you have to get calories into him, it doesn't matter at this point how or what they come from. A feeding tube would be the easiest solution if you can get a vet that is able to do that. Syringe feeding is messy and can turn a cat off to food even more, but in an emergency is the next best thing.

It is best if you keep him separated from other cats where he can eat in peace, perhaps try hand feeding him small peices of anything he might like, even dry food or high calorie treats. Some people recommend baby foods with meat (that have no added spices) I don't know if that is available where you are, I never found them in Germany. Yougurt plain is another option that some cats will go for. I have a cat that seems to only want what i'm eating so maybe if you put some chicken meat on a plate for you you can pretend to share it with him.

Can you call around to ask vets if they have any experience with HL and have they ever done a feeding tube? Did you look at Dr. Lisa's link about F-tubes, I have never personally had a cat with one (other animals and even my daughter who premature had one :? ) It's really not all that difficult for you and it will be less stress for kitty as well.

 

ok...I don't know how all these text thingys works....I'm not asking about Ching...My Sugar baby...but about Tigga...my 17 yrs old kidney and heart baby....will he tollerate an evening of high protien low card diet...I will be feeding Ching ( my sugar kitty) Royalcanin Diabetic..and Hill MD ...and there for Tigga as well...I have a open plan house with only my bedroom where I can shut Ching in.....but I refuse to sleep with out my Tigga...or rather...Tigga refuses to sleep with out me...I have tried in the past....well lts say thats why I haven't been on any holliday in so many years..

 

So, the question is:

Is the diabetic's food Royalcanin Diabetic..and Hill MD ok to eat for a civvie cat with heart and kidney issues?


I do not know. What is the civvie eating now?


I would not risk the life of either cat if food might be an issue for them. As hard as it is to separate you from one or the other, it might make a difference to the recovery of the diabetic.

 

By the By...Ching is eating tiny amounts...just need to find out if he will eat enough with out force feeding...hence the question about Tigga

 

I think if they both eat the low carb food it will be fine. Most important for the kidney patient is enough water which you are going to acheive best with canned food which you can add extra water to. You can let both eat together and feed them the same. Low carb food is good for all cats, and if they all eat the same you don't have to worry about anyone eating something he/she should not.

Do you have a bathroom where overnight you could put Ching with his food so the other can sleep with you? Or if the other sleeps anyway then he wouldn't be getting into Chings food overnight.

 

Hi Inge
Welcome to the board. I am new here since Nov but I do have some experience with
the fatty liver and diabtes combo.
When my Max was 2 he had a severe case of fatty liver, lost 1/2 hs weight and had a feeding
tube in his throat for 5 weeks.

This past Oct, I noticed his weight loss and was not eating. Hs bloodwork was done
and fatty liver came back (although not severe) I had given him Mirtazapinne to stimulate his
appetite, google evry website I could find about getting kitties to eat, plus he was put on 2 supplements, Sam-e (denosyl) and hepato which help the liver to work.
Max finallt started eating. What about the diabetes??? Well, the vet missed the glucose in his urine in Oct and I only found out he was diabtetic one month later, when I brought him to emergency for blood work and that is when they told me he is diabetic.
So my point is that I was working on the liver without even knowing about the diabetes and Max is doing very well now.
The most important issue right now as everyone as been saying is with fatty liver, he must eat!!! You are in a good place here, others will come along with opinions on the diabetes.

 

My name is Judy and my rescue kitty is Miss Pinkie from Emporia, KS. She was quite ill when she came to The Healing Journey, and we immediately did bloodwork: her glucose was only 110, so not an alarm for a 13 year old lady. But she began to lose more weight, and we tested her again about 6 weeks later: this time glucose was 321. We believe she also has cancer which may be complicating things for her. But we began with 2 units of vetsulin, bid, and we changed her to a grain free diet. BG (Before Grains): both dry and wet food. In 6 days, her glucose was down to 118, and I suspect it will be down more when we retest in another week. I am so grateful for this website with all of the information (I did not know that I shouldn't be feeding her after her insulin shot). This is a new road we are traveling here, and I will appreciate any and all help to help her be comfortable and healthier. I tried to go to the website to order the testing kit, but it was for humans. Is that the correct site? Thanks so much for allowing us to continue our journey with all of you. Judy and Pinkie

 

Judy... I've asked a moderator to break you off to a new post so you don't get lost in this thread.

 

Hi all, had a bit of a scare and am not sure what to do...Chings levels were pretty good for today...he's starting to get an appatite but only in small doese...so have been feedin him in the afternoon as well..at 6am he was 12.4 at 12pm 13.4 and at 5.30 a massive 31.4....gave him his 1 unit half an hour early....took his reading at 6.15 and he was 29.7....he's perkey enough and wants to eat but vet (not his normal vet) said I should hold back on the food for tonight....not sure what I should do???now Ching finanly wants to eat and I'm not allowing him...and am worried his reading will go to low if I don't put some food down later tonight??? That, and now another cat that has gone off his food..and is coughing up hair balls galore : (

 

inge.. can you change your subject title to: HELP - fatty liver - vet says not to feed,

That will get some attention... this is important and I think you should continue to let your kitty eat the small amounts. Withholding food could make the food issues worse. But I've not dealt with this myself.... it just seems common sense to not stress out the body by withholding food.

We normally treat the diabetes around the other issues. Did the doctor say to withhold the food in order to keep the BG lower?

 

is any one out there that can advise on my last post...sorry only saw the 911 thingy after I posted it...it's 7.50 this side and he is now reading 28.8...

 

yes he did...but I'm not sure this vet knows his exact history....ching is drinking a fare amount and using his litter box as well....he seems restless as well...asking for food....his numbers are dropping though...28.8 taken a few minutes ago

 

why on earth would a vet say not to feed a cat with HL? I'm not a vet, so I can't contradict this but it just does not seem right at all. any chance you can ask him why?

 

My gut said I should give him a tiny amount...the unsuline is working so should bring the reading down regardless...I hope I didn't do wrong!!!

 

inge... the 911 is only on your new post. You need to edit your first post and change the subject line to: HELP - fatty liver - vet says not to feed

I don't think you need to add the 911 for that though... your cat is not in distress at the moment and you are doing what is right. But we need more eyes on this thread and right now the title is "new to the board".... Please edit the first post. The people need to read the thread in order to see the history of conversation, otherwise I'd have said to start a new thread.

 

Honestly, I can't see why it would be wrong to feed, so I'm sure he will be fine!

 

oh ok...sorry still trying to fugure out how this all works

 

No worries... go to your first post and click the red button on the top right that says edit. Then change the subject line in the subject window.

 

I've dealt with diabetes AND kidney disease AND once took care of a cat with liver disease. Granted, the one with the fatty liver wasn't the same as the one with the diabetes and kidney disease.

First, I can't comprehend a vet saying not to feed anymore to a cat with HL. That makes no sense. High bg's are not the same immediate danger as a cat with HL not eating. (But with the high bg's and low eating level, do keep testing for ketones! Ketones can be dangerous as well, but you can test for them.) I say get some food in him.

A friend of mine had a cat not eating and waited way too long to call me about it... by time I got him he was pretty sick and very skinny. I got him to eat a bit of baby food the first night and then he stopped. He was difficult to force feed after the first day. I got him to eat by giving him steak. I cooked it a bit in the microwave and it was still juicy and smelled strong. And something about that just made him want to eat it. I gave him more the next day and a little less the next. Didn't want him hung up on steak, but he did start eating some fancy feast on his own after that. And that started him back on the road of eating. Then he turned into a big piggy. The vet said to just let him eat however much he wanted.

Having a cat with HL not eat is a serious issue. HL can lead to death.

I'm not a vet, I don't know your cat, and maybe your vet knows something I don't. However, if it's really just to keep his bg's down, that doesn't make sense to me. That's what the insulin is for. His bg's might be high due to the stress from the HL. When they're sick, their body is stressed and that can cause the bg's to go up. (That is, you might solve the high bg issue by solving the HL issue.)

That said, the kidney kitty is OK on the regular food. IMO, he's better off on the regular food. A "diabetic food" is actually just what all cats are supposed to be eating. You don't need a prescription food for that to begin with. If he likes Fancy Feast, let him have that. And Hills is bad quality food and I wouldn't feed it to either one. Save yourself some money and stop buying prescription foods. (Why a prescription? If my doctor wants me to eat less fat, he says eat less fat. He doesn't write me a prescription for low-fat milk. I mean, huh?) You can feed the kidney kitty Fancy Feast as well. However, I would like to add a waiver that it is higher phosphorus, which is something you really need to keep down. That's a different subject that you may want to post about, but you don't need to worry about phosphorus for a short time while this issue is going on. (Another waiver that I don't know that cat either, or if there is anything else wrong with him that would preclude him from eating that food. In other words, we can't know if there are other issues going on. But just in terms of the kidney disease, as long as he isn't like end stage, it should be OK.)

However... might it better to separate him just so that you know what he ate and not have to question which cat got what? You definitely want him eating on his own, but do the finger feeding if you have to. He may not take in much at once, so yeah, you may have to do several meals a day. Sounds like the vet is trying to put too many stipulations on things when the priority here is getting food in him. A tube may be in order if you can't do this. There's also meds he can be getting, first of all an appetite stimulant. Second, some vitamin supplements. (Hmm, I'm trying to think if a subq shot on that is better? Or am I remembering that right?) Third, the Sam-E someone else mentioned, which is for liver disease, but somewhat of a difficult med - be nice if you got this under control without having to go that route.

Some reading:
http://maxshouse.com/Feline_Hepatic_Lipidosis.htm
(Max's house has all kinds of good stuff.)

 

Hi
PInkie and I are also new to this board. I'm not just sure how it works, and I hope this is the right place to post. Pinkie is a 13 yo rescue cat from Emporia, KS. She was dumped by her owners and the volunteer treated her for URI before she came to me. She was very think and her nose was plugged up thus she was not eating. Our vet gave me some steroid eye drops to use to reduce the swelling in her nose, but she drank water so much. The bloodwork at that time did not indicate diabetes then. She ate, drank lots of water and urinated a lot, and then she lost weight. We recently tested her glucose again and it was 321. We began 2 units of Vetsulin bid, and switched her to BG (grain free foods, both wet and dry). We have to keep her confined so she won't eat the other cats' food since they do not eat BG. I am finding the BG and all the grain free foods are very expensive. So it is a struggle to keep her on them, but we will do that no matter what.
Thank you for allowing me to join this site. Blessings, Judy and Pinkie in WY

 

Judy, welcome...

Please feel free to post your message in a new thread. You will get more attention that way. I am going to report you post in order to ask a moderator to separate it to it's new thread if you cannot.


I do not know what your BG food is. Are you just referring to blood glucose or is it a brand of food? Most foods which are good for diabetics are good for other cats too. You might consider switching all your cats.

Also, 2 units of vetsulin is a high starting dose - especially after a food change. Are you testing her blood glucose with a glucometer? Have you read how to do that?

Please click on this link ( FDMB Frequently asked questions)and read through the information a couple of times. It's very important that you have a basic knowledge of what we will all refer to.

Also, I don't mean to scare you but there have been warnings sent to vets about the use of vetsulin and the vets have been told to consider prescribing other insulins. It appears your vet has not read those notices, and that worries me. You can read more about those warnings here: Vetsulin FDA Warning

 

I think BG is "Before Grain" brand. I don't know if it is on Janet & Binky's food charts yet

 

Yes. B.G. is Before Grains.

All of the canned is also 100% meat with no supplements, meaning it is NOT meant for a regular maintenance diet and should be used only as a good protein supplement to a regular diet. And the dry will likely be high carb.

Judy, you need to be finding a different diet. Yes, I know you're meaning well trying to do no grain food, but dry is well, dry, and the canned isn't a diet but just a supplement. (I suspect, just like with supplementing human-grade meat, that it should be no more than 15%.) Keep checking out those charts and find something else. If you want to supplement with something, just regular old chicken is a heck of a lot cheaper.