New to this board

I have a male cat that is (approximately) 6 years old. He was diagnosed with diabetes last September so he's been receiving Lantus insulin shots for about 4 1/2 months now. The vet started him off on 3 units twice a day and over the course of the past few months has moved him up to 6 units twice a day. He was getting Hill's diabtic formula dry food until January but I've been giving him fancy feast (the varieties recommended for diabetics) for about a month. He has gained about 3 pounds and seems happier over all but his BG continues to be at about 400 each time I take him in to be tested. He's been going in every 3 weeks or so.

The vet was concerned that we've upped the insulin so many times without changing his BG reading at all so last week we had bloodwork done again as well as a urine analysis. He had an internal medicine doctor take a look and they've decided that it could be his gingivitis and teeth problems that are interfering with his BG levels. The vet noticed his teeth when I took him in initially in September but he wanted to get his BG under control before putting him under for a dental cleaning. Now months later it turns out that maybe his dental problems are preventing improvement. I'm hoping and praying that if his dental issues clear up then maybe the insulin shots will start to help finally lower his BG. It's just getting so expensive to continue treating him and trying to find out why it's not working.

I wanted to see if anyone else has had a similar experience. Thanks!!

 

Hi Christy!

You guys are missing a key piece of the puzzle; that is, you are not testing blood glucose levels at home. testing randomly at the vet clinic every few weeks isn't going to tell the true story. in my opinion, skip the specialists until you can start testing at home and really see what is going on. For a normal healthy diabetic, even on dry food, 6 units twice a day of lanuts is a very big dose! That said, I whole heartedly agree that poor teeth can make regulation more difficult so it is a good idea if Snug is going for a dental.

Let us help you learn how to hometest if you are willing

Jen

 

Hi Christy -

I wanted to welcome you here to the board. I'm a relative newbie myself, so I won't be able to definitively answer your questions, but I can give you my thoughts & opinions. I'm sure other more experienced people will chime in soon.

Are you home testing his blood glucose levels? This is very important, since you switched his diet to low carb canned food, and you're giving him a pretty large amount of insulin - 6 units is a lot, especially if your cat doesn't have any other underlying conditions. I'm just concerned that you have passed by his ideal dose, and you are now seeing the high numbers because of rebound (too much insulin). And, with that high dose and low carb food, there is a chance of a hypoglycemic episode, so it's even more important to do some home testing.

Read up on this site - there are lots of links to diet, help with home testing, and the dosing protocol many people use for Lantus, which recommends to start low ( 0.5 or 1 unit BID).

I have read that teeth issues can affect BG, so that might be part of what you're seeing here....

 

Thanks for the recommendations! I would like to look into home testing since I know he gets very stressed out when I take him to the vet. I also should have mentioned that he's a very large cat, 15 lbs. He's not overweight but just very tall, long, and stout.

 

Hi Christy

Welcome to the Family,

I see some good points have already been made. It is very important to home test, remember when Snug is at the vet he is very stressed and that will affect his readings. Not all vets will suggest home testing, but all vets are happy to receive whatever data you can provide, it will help in stabilizing kitty. I have no experience dosing, there are others here who have been at this a long time, and are much better equipped to advise you there. But 6 units seems like a lot, even for a 15lb kitty. I had questioned my vet once for a friend of mine with an18lb kitty who was receiving 4 units 2x a day,that is closer to the dose for a small dog.

Here are some links that you should find helpful:
http://Pearlthediabeticcat.blogspot.com
http://www.catinfo.org
http://www.sugarcats.net/sites/harry/bgtest.htm

Don't forget to check out Janet and Binky's list. Cats are obligate carnivores, a species specific diet as well as exercise are very important to a cats general health. Dry food just doesn't cut it, I see you have already begun to change. That is a great start, once kitty is completely on canned food, and you begin home testing you should see a difference in his numbers. But remember, as you lower the carbs you MUST lower the dose or you could have a Hypoglycemic episode. Again others with far more experience will advise you here.

I see you mentioned Dental problems, my kitty Tananda, just went through a small problem with Gingivitis, she lost two teeth. Do you brush Snugs teeth? This may help to relieve some of his dental issues between dental cleanings. My Monster Squad doesn't like it much, but I brush theirs 3x a week with a home made pet toothpaste. the recipe is : 2 tablespoons Baking Soda
2 teaspoons vegetable based Glycerin (available at Whole Foods)
2 teaspoons Broth, chicken or beef
If the mixture is to thin, bulk it up with a little more baking soda. Keep Refrigerated. I know what you are thinking, "Baking Soda BLAH!" I'm experimenting with making it taste better.

Best of Luck
Terri

 

6u twice a day!!!!!!!!!!!!


WOW that is really, really high without testing him at home before every shot. You took away the dry food too?

You need to start over with the insulin as you may have missed his ideal dose. It is pretty dangerous to give him that much without testing. PLEASE start at 1u twice a day






Welcome to our FDMB family and be patient with yourself. You sound like you really love your cats, so you have come to the perfect place. Get some chocolate, sit back and get ready to read. Also, remember Every Cat Is Different. (ECID) Also, remember opinions may vary sometimes on this board, so you may get different views. Unfortunately, that is human nature.
Sorry this is very long, but there is a lot to say! Also, remember we were ALL newbies once and are feeling just like you are right now! OK……..breathe………. :RAHCAT

You do not need any type of prescription food or “special” diabetic food. Use Janet & Binky’s chart for canned food at http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html. . Low carb is best for diabetics. I try to stay around 10% or under. I feed Whiskas, 9-Lives and mostly Friskies canned food. Diabetes is very treatable and does not cost as much as you would think. If you are giving a high dose of insulin and feeding dry, be careful with switching to canned food. You MUST reduce the insulin at the same time you switch to canned food.

Please create a profile if you have not already done so (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=531). It will help us to help you. We need to know what kind of insulin you are on, what needles you are using (U-40 or U-100), what are you feeding, how much insulin you are giving and when, BG test results, etc. There are many people on this board from all over the world, so it will be helpful to know what area and time zone you are in.

Remember that your cat is YOUR cat, and YOU are paying your VET to help you take care of him; diabetes was probably a day or two worth of notes when the vet was in college; it is probably NOT a day-to-day existence with his own cat trying to maintain a quality of life. Sorry to say, but I would have overdosed my guys on insulin if I followed my vet's advice. Vets, unfortunately are not as knowledgeable as they should be on diabetes.

Sometimes, as I did, you have to take a leap of faith and trust these people on this board who deal with diabetes day in and day out. Trust me. You will not be disappointed. OK………..breathe again……….get some chocolate…….. cat_pet_icon

Also, please realize that it takes insulin about a week to settle. START LOW AND GO SLOW!! The usual starting dose from our experiences is 1u twice a day for at least a week. Insulin in cats is NOT and I repeat NOT based on weight. This is a misconception that a lot of us have gotten from our vets here. pc_work

You have to be patient, as I also had to learn!! Do not adjust the dose upwards based on one test. Don’t freak out based on one test result. As long as the levels stay on the high side, keep the same dose twice a day for at least the initial week period and you should see improvements. When you have some time (hee hee), read my profile doc at http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfqss8sg_1cpgwhbd9 .

If you are not hometesting already, you really need to start!! Hometesting is VERY important. Most of us here use any human meter. Think of it as a human diabetic does. *If it were you or a child of yours, you'd be testing blood glucose levels at home prior to each shot; you'd be working with your doctor to determine a proper dose based on those shot results, correct?* Some vets do not agree with hometesting and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Most vets, sadly are not knowledgeable enough in feline diabetes. Insulin is a VERY powerful drug and you NEED to hometest before giving a shot. This is very important. The vet would rather have you bring the cat to them, stress it out more, which may spike the levels anyway and then they can charge you $$. Hometesting saved me a lot of money and it is VERY important for you personally to know the cat’s levels and how it is reacting to the insulin before you shoot so you do not pass up your ideal dosage.

Thanks to everyone's help here I learned to home test 2 cats and they both got off insulin within 3 weeks with diet change…but of course, they reacting both DIFFERENTLY with the process. If I can do it with 2 cats twice a day (and more on curve days), ANYONE can do it. It does NOT hurt them as much as you think it does. It just stings for a moment and then it is gone, you can try it on yourself. Also, put pressure on the ear after poking and it should minimize the nub. They won't mind it once they start feeling better. I use the True Track meter (CVS or Walgreens brand) which I love. And, the strips are also reasonable. Also, remember to give them a treat after the test. Here is a link to a member videos on hometesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zE12-4fVn8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6iXetR398

I would not feed DRY food if at all possible. Of course, it is better than nothing – you MUST get them to eat if you are giving insulin, but if there is any chance, get them off the dry. I took my guys off dry and within a month they were off insulin. Again, remember that switching from dry to wet can cause a drop in blood sugars, so you MUST reduce insulin at the same time to make sure you are not giving too much insulin. I truly believe also that I saved some of my many others from developing diabetes. I also saved so, so much money changing them all to regular canned cat food.
When Blackie and Jackie got diagnosed, I was afraid to start shots. The people on this board made me realize it was no big deal. (They went on PZI insulin around 3-25-06 and went off on 4-18-06! Please also realize that diet plays a BIG, BIG part in insulin needs. I switched my cats off dry food to all wet and I was never so happy. It was a challenge to try to regulate 2 cats at once.


Welcome to the Sugar Dance. flip_cat
Welcome to the Vampire Club.

If I can do it, ANYONE can!!!
It does get easier. Trust us.

You need to test BEFORE you shoot. It usually goes: Test, Feed, Shoot



There's a saying something like "better the sugar level is too high for a day than too low for a minute".

 

IF you make a dose reduction - PLEASE test the urine for KETONES (using "keto-diastix" available at human pharmacies)

If ketones are present, an immediate trip to the vet is needed. When reducing the dose in a cat that NEEDS the insulin, ketones can develop and quickly ramp up into a serious condition called DKA (diabetic ketoacidosis) that requires hospitalization.


It is very unusual for an unregulated diabetic to GAIN 3 lbs.

That said, there are some "underlying conditions" where this DOES happen, and it can also cause Insulin Resistance -- making a "high dose" necessary for the cat's health.

My cat Norton had a condition called Acromegaly. He gained 4 pounds in the first 6 months that we were treating him with insulin. Acromegaly is a tumor on the pituitary gland which causes a flood of "Insulin-like Growth Factor" and Growth Hormone. These interfere with the normal insulin and the cat becomes diabetic. There is more information about this condition posted in the INSULIN SUPPORT GROUP for HIGH DOSE.

It is very possible that you missed the correct dose for your kitty since you started out at 3 units.

The fact that your cat has gained 3 pounds and not had a HYPO-glycemia (low blood sugar) incident from too much insulin, and that your cat is a big strong cat suggests to me that you may be dealing with one of these "underlying conditions".

Norton was very muscular - while not a BIG cat, he was stocky and very strong. His feet were somewhat larger than our other cats, and his head was very round and full looking. Another characteristic can be growth in the jaw - comparing the spacing of the teeth among your kitties (if you have more than one) a cat with Acromegaly MAY have spread out teeth.

 

Yes, please do not make any changes to your dose yet without starting home testing. You don't want to cut back on the insulin and run into other issues such DKA. You can test ketones in the urine with simple ketostix bought at any drug store over the counter.

I would suggest getting a glucometer and start looking at the links/stickies on this message board on how to perform home testing. Alot of people swear by ReLion at Walmart and I have heard it is very affordable.

Home testing really isn't that bad at all once you get the hang of it. Actually I think it is harder on us than it is on the cats. :lol: If you want to start home testing we can all help you get there.

Welcome to FDMB. I hope to see you here alot asking lots of questions.

BTW - 6 units is alot of Lantus like everyone else has said. The most important thing with Lantus it to start low and stay slow. That said, others mentioned conditions that could cause Snug to need higher doses and yes infections can also cause BG to be high.

 

I really wish that I had looked into this website months ago! I usually am the type to research things to death so I'm not sure why I didn't get around to it until now. I have used Binky's food chart in picking out his food so far. I'm glad that I was finally advised to switch to wet food. My vet's cat is actually diabetic and he said that he goes to classes on diabetes whenever he has a chance for continuing education purposes but it still seems that you all are more knowledgeable than he is on the topic! He mentioned a possibility of acromegly but he wanted to rule out some underlying infection or other more common cause before trying to test for that. I haven't noticed Snug's head looking unusually large or anything but I imagine it may not always be obvious. I'll be at the vet on Friday for him to get his teeth cleaned so I will bring up home testing to see what my vet's views on it are (I do plan on starting either way but I'm curious) and I'll also talk with him about lowering the dose if possible. If an infection has been causing the high BG then when that's cleared up I would assume that he'll definitely need a lower dose of insulin. I think the vet actually mentioned that last week when I spoke with him.

I have to say that it's a bit overwhelming to try to learn all of this at once! It makes me so nervous. He's a sweetheart and I just want him to get better :sad:

 

Welcome, I am newly diagnosed (2 weeks ago) and this board has helped me immensely!!!! I don't know what I would do without it! I started home testing right away. My vet didn't know anything about home testing but off of suggestions on this site I learned how to home test right away. I am so glad I did, I think it is so important! Good luck and welcome again!!! There are very experienced people here who can help!