Newbie Carmen

Moved from another thread:

Hi all! this is my first post! Been doing random home testing on my cat for about a week. He's been crying for food all evening...only stopped for one hour after eating and having his jab (6pm) - checked his blood at 2130 and my freestyle freedom lite measured 3.2 - the lowest ive ever seen. but i dont understand cos he's acting starving, like he does with high BG. going to check him again in an hour, which will be 6 hours after his jab so should be at his lowest. I don't know whether to trust the reading when his behaviour is as if he's high??

 

Carmen,

You could be looking at hypo. 52 is a low number for around 6 hours after the shot. Please test again and let us know what you get. What kind of insulin and what is the dose? He may be hungry because his blood sugar is going too low. Feed him a small amount of higher carb food if you have it.

 

Hi Sue and Oliver. I just tested him again and it was 2.9 so ive given him some of his normal food which he is stuffing his face with! I just dont know whether to trust my machine? i'll test him again in a bit, he seems fine, just v hungry, but he always his! and he hates being tested, he tries v hard to get away so it's hard to keep doing it, and i only got a tiny bit of blood but the machine bleeped so i guess it worked? if not, then im just pushing his BG up ( he's v prone to ketones). He's due at the vet Tues for a fructosamine, until then i dont know what to do, tomorrow i have to work so will have to leave him unsupervised which is scary...

 

Okay, first, breathe. ) You will need to test again. You will just have to grab him and do it. I used to wrap Oliver up in a towel with just his head showing and poke.

Eating is okay but we don't want him to eat so much that he won't eat when you want him to - to get his numbers up.

Get a number and then we can decide if you need to break out the karo syrup.

Assume you are in Canada or Europe and use metric? Insulin type? Dose? Information we need to help you.

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

If I'm reading this correctly you got a 57.6 and 52.2 after, I multiplied by 18 to get numbers that I understand here in the US.

Some cats take time to get used to being in low numbers again. Tucker used to get very anxious as soon as he would hit 60 and he needed food. He was not comfortable unless he was in the 80-100 range.

As Sue questioned, what type of insulin are using? What dose?

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

Thanks Jennifer. I was trying to get back to her fast before she went away and did the conversions wrong. I edited my first 2 posts.

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

Hi all! yes im in London, on Caninsulin 2 x 4 units a day. He seems quite happy to be eating right now. though it would make sense for his BG to have dropped as the insulin is probably only peaking in around 30 mins time. How long should the food take to get into his blood? should i retest now??

thank you both sooooo much!! great to know there are people out there!!

I'm not sure what my measurements are in US, but yes i think it's x 18? so 57.6 then 52.2?

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

How long since your shot? 4 units, right?

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

He had his jab at 5pm, so 5.5 hrs ago so it should be at its peak around now i guess.

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

I would wait to test again - for 15 minutes or so. The two numbers you got are basically the same number. We want to see him going up.

Does he usually go lowest at +6 with Canninsulin? Is that his history? Most kitties go lower earlier than that.

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

If you are at +6 with Canninsulin and in the 50s you may be fine. I took off the 911. We just want to make sure he is on the way up, not still going down.

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

To be honest i dont really know when the peak is, he's only has curves done at the vet and it def seems to be 6 hrs max until the peak. i'll ask on Tues when we go for his fructosamine. Now i dont know what to do about his jabs until then?! I have to work tomorrow as well which means leaving him, maybe i should play safe than sorry and leave food out? he seems ok, he's crouching down on his blanket, he always looks a bit awkward after eating, but sniffed his brother and gave him a lick and has washed his own paws, though i am now just staring at him terrified he suddenly has a fit

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

I agree with Sue, retest and make sure his numbers are on the rise.

How long has your kitty been on insulin? Was 4 units twice per day the starting dose or did you move up to that because the numbers were high?

Sue, it was easy to see that you were concerned and rightfully so, that's why I knew you meant to write the number and not the multiplier You are always so good and making sure posts get seen.


Carmen, what do you mean he had a fit? Like a seizure?

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

I didn't mean to scare you. I was off on the conversions. Your 50s are okay. We just don't want him to go lower. He will most likely be fine.

Do you have some other numbers to share or have you just started hometesting? The numbers from the vet are not usually accurate because stress raises bg levels and cats are stressed at the vet. You will want to reduce the dose for sure.

What kind of food do you feed?

 

Re: Newbie Carmen Possible hypo

ok just re tested - twice! first one with tiny bit of blood 2.9, second with bigger bit of blood a few seconds later, 3.6! i'm so confused!

He was put up to 4 units cos his numbers were so high during his curves, as in off the chart, plus he's had ketones twice and nearly died he was diagnosed at the end of Nov/beg Dec.

Vet doesnt know im hometesting - only got my equipment about 10 days ago so havent been doing it regularly. i should poss start, though not sure how id get him to stay still esp if he's hungry before food. i will def test him tomorrow morning, though im not sure what the minimum is before giving insulin??

and yes, fit is seizure in your language!!

he's on tinned or sachet food, i cant afford the prescription stuff and he loved his wet food anyway so at least he's eating! not sure if you have the same brands but he main ly eats whiskas supermeat which is in a can. the others are on prescription dry dental food which i mix with wet as im not terrified they develop diabetes, luckily Mith doesnt like dry food so will only eat it if he's really starving.

 

Okay, you're very calm, so let me double check this, when I asked about seizure, I meant hypoglycemic episode - seizure.

Have you seen the information on hypos? Even if you're not experiencing that now, it's very important to know about this.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1122

So, did he have a fit like he swatted at his buddy or did he have an actual seizure, fell down, shaking, scared the heck out of you because you've never seen him do anything like this before? Sorry to be asking such strange questions, I just want to make sure you and your kitty are safe right now.

 

just saw your question about other numbers! well, they're all a bit random..

on wed he had his insulin at 0810 - BG at 1355 was 5.1...i tested cos he was acting starved..so gave him food at 1710 he was 16.2
on Friday he had his jab at 0600 (i have to move them cos of shift work, but try to move hr max a day) BG at 0950 was 9.6..second jab at 1800, BG at 0055 was 10.2

those are the only figures i really have to compare with

and no, he hasnt had a fit or seizure - i'm just terrified he will so am staring at him!! god if he had one of them i WOULD be panicking!! i have hypostop gel if (god forbids) that ever happens. im terrified it happens one day when im at work

 

If you have been testing a few weeks and you have the data, that will be exactly what the fructosamine test tells you - the average bg level over the past couple weeks. It's an fairly expensive test if you don't need it. Can you just show your numbers to the vet?

Oh, you said he doesn't know you are hometesting. Well, I think I would call and tell him. And mention that you had a low nadir number on the 4 units and think you need to lower the dose....

You can use the towel (we call it the kitty burrito) to keep him still while you test. Or if he is really antsy, you can try the clothespin trick. It mimics the way a mother cat holds her kitty still in her mouth. Clothespin trick Usually, if you give him a treat as soon as you poke, he will start associating the poke with the treat and sit for you.

We tell newbies not to give insulin under 200, but to wait and test to see if the number comes up. Or to give a lower dose than you had planned on. I would definitely lower your dose and plan to testing before every shot, and some mid cycle numbers also.

The prescription food is no better than regular supermarket food. We have some GB members so they can give you brands. Generally the pate or ones in jelly are good. Stay away from the gravy types.

Your 2 numbers really are the same. All meters have a 20% variance so if one number is 20% more or less than a number taken a few minutes early, it falls within the accepted variance. And you are still in the 50s after food. Don't relax yet. Take another test in 15-20 minutes.

 

I thought you were calm so he was okay, just wanted to make sure.

When was he diagnosed diabetic?
What type of food does he eat? Did you change his diet since the diagnosis?

His numbers aren't terribly high, even the 16.2, that's 291 which is high, but I've seen higher when first diagnosed. Unregulated diabetics are usually very hungry, their bodies do not utilize the food well enough.

 

Ok, that's good - no seizure. Are his numbers coming up now?

About tomorrow, I am not a vet and I confess to not being familiar with your insulin. But you said you have to work tomorrow, and if it were my cat, I'd rather be safe and shoot a reduced amount, maybe 3 units.

In the future, try to test before his shot, get a few mid cycle tests, and test when you notice anything odd, like you did today. That was a really good catch today, by the way! You did good.

 

Sue & Oliver -- the fructosamine wasnt that expensive last time, less than £30 which is MUCH cheaper than a curve, and given how much I've spent, that's fine!

Tuckers mum - when he's been tested at the vets, his BG has just read HI as it's off the scale, I know he obv does get stressed and that affects it, so seeing the fructosamine should be interesting.

He seems ok - just lying down. feel bad to prick his poor ear again but will do at half past.

 

also, totally separately - i cant find a photo of him small enough to upload for my profile! v annoying!

 

To help with the bruising when you are testing often, hold the spot where you poked for a few seconds. You can also use a topical antibiotic with pain killer. Here we use something called Neosporin. Do you have the same thing in England?

There is a way to make the pic smaller, but it is definitely not my area of expertise. I had to have help. Post in the Tech Support forum and they will help you: viewforum.php?f=6

 

One thing to keep in mind about the fructosamene is that is going to be an average of how he's been doing for weeks.

If he is really high for hours a day and then really low, the average wouldn't show the highs and lows. Preventing those highs and lows so that your kitty is feeling good all day long is easier to do if you hometest.

In the beginning it seems daunting and feels like such a terrible thing. I know, I've done it many times. A cat that I just adopted is diabetic and testing her was really hard, she hissed and growled and I felt terrible doing it, but now that she's gotten used to it she's fine. I don't think it caused her any pain, I think me holding her still and the noise from the lancet device is what bothered her most.

 

Regarding your next dose - will it be in 6 hours or so? Will you be gone all during the cycle? If so, I would be cautious with the dose and be sure to leave out several pans of food. Cats tend to be smart when they go low and they go get food to bring themselves up. Lots of us freeze the can food - I use a muffin tin and then put out the frozen pucks - and he can eat it as it thaws.

It sounds like you will be testing more and may want some dosing help. We have a great tool here: Setting up a spreadsheet It is a color coded spreadsheet that will convert from metric to US. When you want help, it will give us a fast history of doses and numbers. And it shows you patterns and trends. If you are computer savvy, it isn't too hard to set up. If you need help, just ask. Be sure to pick the World Version so it will convert.

Do you have another number?

You can now do your curves at home and they will be more accurate, with no vet stress. You will just have to firmly tell the vet you plan to do the tests at home as you are testing at home. Then you can send him the spreadsheet!

 

i managed to upload a photo!! thank google for the tech help!

we dont have neosporine but i bought some last time i was in the states, not sure i want him licking that off! i have some vaseline to smooth his fur down. i havent tested him again as he's now curled up next to me on the sofa so i feel too cruel to disturb him! his next dose is due at 5am...i'll be around all day but start work at 1800 so need to leave my flat by 1700 and wont be home til after 0100...may reduce his dose and leave food out to be safe. i'll test him in the morning to see how he's doing. not sure the kitty burrito will work with him, think he'll then run a mile every time he sees a towel!!

tuckers mum, good point on the fructosamine...and the last one we did it showed he was well regulated, even though he wasnt at all - his lowest was 10 or maybe higher, i cant remember now!
i should test him again, i know i should. so much for my early night! it's quarter to midnight and i have to be up to feed him etc at 5 at the latest as he needs his jab in the afternoon at 1645 at the latest!

 

and thanks for the spread sheet!!!

i was going to test him but he's twitching and dreaming - can't disturb the poor boy

 

Love the picture.

I'm Jennifer, by the way. I have that in my signature line but no one ever sees it. I have to figure out a way to make that stand out more

 

He looks like a sweetie. Maybe he won't notice if you prick him while he is sleeping. :mrgreen:

 

I think I'll have to assume he's ok and try and sleep!

I have no idea why i've called myself Carmen - my name is actually Jeane! think it's habit from other forums - plus Carmen was the name of a cat I had years ago who sadly was run over

I just know i'll spend all my time at work tomorrow panicking about him!

 

He heard a noise outside and i used the opportunity to test him. He really does not like it. That combined with his injections means he must hate me by now
Anyway, his reading is 4.4 so it's going up!

Thanks for all your support - so reassuring to know other people are out there!

 

Good..Now you can relax for the night. If I were you, I would drop down to 2 units for tomorrow and leave out food. When you get home, promptly get some tests in before and after the shot. The more data you have, the more you will be able to steer this right.

 

Yeah, i'll test in the morning again, poor cat. It's all so daunting, especially as he's had ketones so many times i dont want to risk giving him less in case he develops them, but obv a def do not want a hypo. i'm around during the day, so will see how he is and judge how much to give him, but i think less is more in a situation like this! i just know the vet will want to do their own curve as well, though i still dont know how much to trust my meter!! he is asleep and seems happy now, but that could just be cos he has food in his tummy!

i bet he'll still leap off into the kitchen when my alarm goes off in 4 hours! if he's less than 200 you reckon i shouldnt inject? that's a fraction over 11 on my measurements? i really ought to sleep!

 

I thought you had to go out tomorrow. If you are going to be around, this can be much more leisurely. Get a preshot. If it is under 200, wait 20-30 minutes and test again You want it over 200, you also want to be sure it is headed up, not down. That will be super early in the US, but you can post and see if any of our European friends are on. Then plan on a +4 or so (more commonly the nadir for Canninsulin) and the +6. That will give you a good idea of how it is working.

Don't know if you saw the Canninsulin guide (called Vetsulin in the US) viewtopic.php?f=19&t=302

 

I dont have to be at work until just before 6pm so am around all day - just the evening im worried about! I'll see how he is at 5am. I may as well just stay up! i cant see how his BG will have risen that much in the next 3.5 hours, but we'll see! to think i'd worked out all my injection timings so well to fit around my shifts and now they may have to be rethought! this balancing act is a bit of a nightmare, as i normally work 12 hr days, which means it's always a rush to get home and give him his jab, and now if he's going to be all over the place, i don't know what to do!

 

(and thanks for that guide, i think i saw something similar before which is where i prob got the 6 hr nadir thing from!)

 

Hi Jeannie, my name is Jan. I agree you should probably drop the dose tomorrow. The high numbers can be caused by something called rebound or the somogyi effect. When the blood glucose drops too rapidly, the body reacts by producing a burst of the hormones that produce glucose. The type of insulin your cat is on tends to produce more dramatic drops. So by lower the dose you might lower the peak numbers also. When you have a sudden drop your curve looks like a V. You would ideally want something more like this ) turned sideways with a more slow less dramatic drop. So if you get a curve that looks more like a smile, then hopefully you can smile.

My cat went thru the ketones and DKA twice. I would also encourage you to test for ketones since your cat is prone to getting DKA. You can do it two ways. You can guy a meter from Abbot labs that measures serum ketone levels. Here in the US it is called the precisionXL. In Europe and Canada it is called a different name but if you are interested I can look it up for you. The second method to test for ketones is buying urine test strips. There are several brands and you can buy them in any pharmacy. Even if your cat's BG is below 17 (us 300). I would still test for ketones. The second time my cat got DKA his BG was only 13.3 (us 240). Hope I got these conversion factors right?

You may also want to eventually try to get your cat on a longer acting insulin like Lantus, Levemir or Prozinc. I know for some reason it seems harder for people in the UK and Europe to get a prescruiption for it. The insulin your vet prescibed is not the best one for cats and is longer manufactured in the US at all. For now you are stuck using it but it might be worth trying to change in the future.

 

Hi Jan
Been reading up on Somogyi thanks! Just measured his BG this am prior to his jab and it says 9.6, which is still low. i'm still v dubious about trusting my meter! I have strips to test urine for ketones, just havent been able to catch him recently. He seems v bright this morning, but his behaviour is confusing me, as he's acting like he's starving all the time, no matter what my meter says his blood is, i would have thought he would be more 'normal'?? This is making me question the meter, as if i didn't have that, i would just be feeding him and injecting as normal. I'm so terrified of him going DKA or hypo, i went to bed at 0330!! my alarm went off at 5 and now im not sure i'll be able to get back to sleep. I wish I could trust my meter but cos he hates getting his ear pricked, i wasn't a massive amount of blood so i don't trust the reading!

 

Also, my vet mentioned possibly looking at other insulins in the future if he continued to have high readings, but the only brand he named was Lente, and said changing meant going back to the beginning and starting all over

 

so update is, i went to bed for an hr and a half! got up, checked his blood, it said 9.6 -- too low for insulin. I fed him anyway, he didnt eat as much as normal. checked again an hour later -- with a bit of faffing, so he may have been stressed, it was 19.6! arrghh, so decided to leave it for a bit, went back to sleep with alarm set for midday, had endless nightmares about him, and being in a plane crash and chased by a polar bear! then he woke me at 11 crying, tried testing him, failed to get any blood, he was NOT happy, so ive just fed him and given him his jab. I don't need to leave for work until 1645 so can observe him. checked his urine twice though - no ketones phew!! just worries me going forward, as im not sure he'll ever let me check his BG. he really really is not happy and the poor animal has been thru so many changes and daily jabs, i feel bad

 

You and Carmen will get through this ...just don't take that plane ride to Alaska with your cat..
Carmen will have to learn to get used to the testing. It is very important, especially with the ketone history.
Believe me, 99% of us had troubles testing in the beginning and didn't know how we were going to be able to keep this up.
But it is very important that you know how much insulin to give, or not give at shot times, and how the insulin is affecting your cat's BGs during the day.
Try to relax, and give Carmen some cuddle time before you test. You don't want your stress to be felt by your cat.
And treats and luvins after every test attempt, successful or not.

 

Hi Dyana - morning! I will keep trying, just not sure how he'll react! He's eaten, had his jab, went outside for a bit and is now curled up looking v comfy asleep I'm going to go to the gym as he seems ok, and will try testing him before i go to work. if i cant test him, i'll prob leave a teeny bit of food out, but i have a feeling, my feline 6th sense!, that he's going to be fine today, but i def need to get this sorted going forward. After today im not in work til Wed, and he goes to the vet Tues so i'll maybe discuss bringing him down to 2x 3.5 units, though vet is reluctant to do half units cos he says it's hard to judge the .5 on the caninsulin syringe...we'll see!

 

Good morning,, Carmen,

Let's see if we can help with a few things. Do you want to post your area of London and we will see if there is anyone who lives around you? They might be able to help with your meter issue and hometesting.

As for the meter, do you know any human diabetics? If you could borrow their meter and test both your meter and theirs on your blood, you might be more comfortable with your readings. Our experience is that the meters tend to be more accurate at the lower ranges than the high, which is good because you want to be more careful with your dosing at the lower readings.

Is it that you aren't getting blood, or is it that he moves? If no blood, check that you are sure poking in the right place. You are aiming for the little capilliaries that run off the vein that runs down the edge of the ear. You can put a flashlight behind the ear so you can see. Then, when you find the place, put a tiny smear of vaseline where you want to poke. It will also help the blood bead up.

Are you heating the ear? That was vital for us and the rice sack really works well.

The last part is attitude. If you decide that poking is literally saving his life (and it is - you wouldn't have wanted to give insulin this morning) you need to get determined and "just do it"! If he complains, explain that you are keep him safe.

 

Hi Jeane, has anyone mentioned the clothespin trick to you? Here is the link: http://www.felinecrf.org/giving_sub-qs_ ... _peg_trick

I had a very difficult cat. She would hiss and bite. This clothespin thing is like a mother cat holding then by the scruff. My cat relaxed quite a bit. Also, I used a blanket to wrap around her burrito style. And she didn't like treats, but I gave her food after every poke. Ultimately she became quite cooperative and would come when I got out the testing stuff. SOmething I would not have believed in a million years when I was first at it. But it really made us closer.

Also , warming her ear was helpful, but I never got the hang of the rice sock. I used a small medicine vial filled with very hot water. It fit the curve of her ear and gave me a hard surface to poke against.
Lot of luck!

 

If you are not sure about the meter, test yourself. Whenever I questioned my meter or test strips, I'd test myself. The numbers for non diabetics humans is the same as for our cats, 70–130 mg/dl (5.0–7.2 mmol/l) before a meal.

 

Hi again, thank you all for the advice. I'm too exhausted to reply properly after only a few hrs, if that of sleep last night. it's 0220 here again. i havent been able to test him this evening. he seems to have gone the opposite way - and is drinking constantly and peeing (no ketones so far) and is starving and not settling. i'm worried by messing up his injection times i'm making him worse - he's drinking so much i'm assuming i'll be taking him in with ketones by morning i've totally screwed up my cats health i think

 

he hasn't stopped drinking yet since i wrote that last message. this is not good at all. he is still drinking.

 

Water can help flush the ketones. Like I would add as much water as he will tolerate to his wet food.

I am antijinxing yourself.

I would try to get a test tonight, if you can. I can't stay up tonight because I got almost no sleep last night, and just took a sleeping pill to help me sleep soon. It's 10:00pm, here, and past my bedtime. Good luck with the testing.

 

Hey Carmen,

Diana and Tom live in London and she would be glad to discuss meters, food with you. Watch the top of the board for "1 new message"