Nigel and I need help.

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AmericanTemplar

AmericanTemplar

Member Since 2019
I’ve already posted in the welcome forum and there’s quite a bit of information about my situation in that thread now, but I was encouraged to post here by @MrWorfMen's Mom. I don’t have anything to add at the moment, but my thread in the new members forum is titled “Can a single person with a diabetic cat stop have a life?”
 
Ok. I have a couple of questions for you and a bit of homework to make this as easy as possible going forward.

Did you give insulin today? If so how much and how long ago (# of hours since shot not time)?
Was that reading of 308 taken before insulin or if later, how many hours after his shot?

It would be very helpful if you could set up a signature so everyone helping can instantly see some pertinent information rather than flipping back and forth between threads. It's the light grey text below my messages. To do this, simply hover your mouse over your user name in the upper right corner and select Signature from the left side menu. This gives you a text box where you can put information kitty's name, sex, weight, type of insulin, type of glucometer (Libre for now ...can be changed later if need be), current diet, any other health concerns along with what you'd like us to call you, and your general location, useful sometimes when offering help due to time differences amongst members and for supply suggestions). Once you've typed in your information , scroll down and click on Save Changes.

It would also be helpful if you would set up one of our spreadsheets for Nigel so we can track his readings on a very simple auto coloured SS that gives you a very visual way of seeing how thing are going. The instructions for the setting up the SS are HERE and THIS document explains how to use it.

We are expecting a major snowstorm here this afternoon, so I have to run out and pick up some cat food or my poor kids are going to be hungry. I won't be long and if you can work on the "homework" in the meantime, we can get you on the road to figuring out Nigel. :)
 
Hi and welcome!!

I just read your previous thread and let me tell you yes you can be single and manage a diabetic cat ( I do) , you just have to get everything organized and establish a routine, yes the first couple of months I did canceled everything actually I had to ask for a week off work when Babu was first diagnosed because we did had a bad couple of days since he was diagnosed while having an UTI and was not eating but it does get better.

I do suggest you get a time feeder so that he can have something to eat when you are not at home and at night while you sleep

And to have some back up, a friend family member or vet tech that can go to your house when you for some reason have to be out or as it actually has happend to me get stuck in traffic or on a meeting at work and won't be able to get home on time, the home testing is important it will help you know what to do to shoot or to skip a shoot if is risky and you are not going to be around.

Is good that you have a home metter besides the Freestyle libre because for what I've read (I actually bought one but couldn't get it applied on Babu ) it is a bit inaccurate when you get to very low numbers and those are the ones that are really dangerous because of hypoglycemia so you want to be able to test with other meter if he's going to low to be able to take action.

Hopefully since you catched the diabetes early you can get into remission but if not once he's regulated everything gets easier
 
@MrWorfMen's Mom thanks! I think that I got everything set up. It's hard to get very exact number with the FL app. The graph is pretty tough to read looks like maybe 310 before I gave him his shot and peaked at 360 before coming down again.
 
Grant I am not at all familiar with the use of the Libre short of seeing the advertising and pics. I thought it was possible to get a one time reading at any given time displayed on the portable device that communicates with the installed sensor as well as doing a dump of the data after the fact. Seems to me that the meter would be useless for diabetics unless it had this capability. It may however be that you need a different piece of equipment to do one off readings.
@Veronica & Babu-chiri can you shed any light on the various components included with the Libre so we can figure out how to get the data off it at specific times rather than a graph?
 
Freestyle Libre.PNG I'm assuming this is the reader you have for the system.


I just checked out the websites (both US and Canada) and cannot find the manual for the meter but I did find this video so have a peak and see if you can get to the log book. That will provide a list of the readings taken so far with times so we can start adding some data to Nigel's SS.
 
Hi Grant, I'm the guy that can never give a short answer
You asked "Can a single person with a diabetic cat stop have a life?" This is an honest answer and much of it depends on how much you value life, your own and your cats. First off, I'm 61 and have had cats for 40+ years and through sheer luck the first 30 years were the stupid "out-door cat/I have 3 jobs/my roommates are idiots/party all the time" years. A few stitches here and there, one episode of crystals, a few eye infections. I once rented a house on a tree farm, 640 acres of coyotes and my two big Toms came back every night. One lived to 17, his brother to 23. Back then I didn't even know cats could develop diabetes.
Something changed when I moved, got a real girlfriend, bought a house and somehow ended up with nine cats and a dog. I wouldn't trade that for anything. Then my cat Nigel who was slim and trim developed diabetes. We had a great vet who showed us everything and Nigel was a sweetheart. I'd thump the table and up he'd jump for his poke and injections. And he loved riding in cars and showing off at the vet. Not everyone is so lucky. Vacations were limited to stays at my sister's cottage and Nigel loved the adventure. To be brutally honest if that had happened when I was 20 I would have done what was best for the cat (meaning I was a lazy dumb-ass) and had him put to sleep.
If you're here now it's because you care but you cannot lock yourself indoors and sacrifice everything, that won't be healthy and you may even resent Nigel as impossible as that seems now.
This is how we managed. 1) With certain insulins you can push the boundaries of the 12/12 shot cycle but please research this very carefully. I don't speak for the board, the practice is not at all advisable and can be extremely dangerous in the long run. 2) Having a partner who is fully in the loop is invaluable. Anything from being stuck in traffic to a broken ankle can screw everything up so being able to call home and say "Honey, Nigel is up to you tonight" is a huge help. 3) The dreaded funeral, vacation, visit with in-laws. In a big enough city there are always alternatives. Sitters who are qualified for this, friends who do more than drink your beer and the dreaded boarding a cat. Nigel was a breeze but his brother Noah, our second diabetic was a nervous mess. After a few years we finally had to board him and to be honest I thought I'd come home one cat short. The vet who boarded him and his staff were great and Noah came home safe and sound.
The last line in my signature, "Forever has to mean something" is a promise not easily kept and we have made sacrifices but in return I have learned a great deal about what we get back when we respect life.
Our Nigel was born upstairs in the same home we live in now with his three brothers and was named after Nigel Mansell the race car driver. Of course I cannot let this go without showing you some photos of him. The dog was his best friend and they adored each other. Just click on the photos for full size.
Wishing you and Nigel a long and happy life.

009_nigel.JPG hannah_nigel02 (2).JPG
 
Thanks for all of the comments. Sorry the less than thorough responses, but my computer is having problems so having to use my phone. You’re Nigel looks like a sweet cat!

My situation is that I’m single, I have no family in the area as of this week (my parents are moving to the other side of the country and my brother is moving to Oregon), I’m broke, I run a struggling small business and I have figure out its future by the end of March when the lease on my shop ends, the business is 20 to 30 minutes from my house depending on traffic, and I need a lot of exercise to stay sane. But, I love my cat to death and want to see him pull through in spite of this being the worst timing imaginable for this diagnosis.

I’ve added quite a bit more info to the spreadsheet. Can anyone make anything of it?
 
Hi Grant and Nigel. I've never met another Nigel so I'm a bit unnaturally invested in this. Nigel was low maintenance so the cost of him having a good life was next to nothing. I'm hoping your Nigel has the same good luck. There are lots of ways to save money; ordering insulin from Canada, strips from the web etc. I never used Lantus so I'm no good to you there. Many of us feed our cats Fancy Feast, the pig-slop of cat food. If you can get over the yech factor and don't fall for the vet's "prescription" food you can save lots of money. Our Nigel lived a good life, it was not diabetes that got him in the end.
There is always a way and I know how you feel.
Once you get the general things figured out and feel comfortable here you can post in the Lantus forum for more specific dosing advice. There is no rule here about sticking to one forum as long as you don't post the exact same thing in two forums. Come over here Nigel and let me rub your chin. :bighug:
 
How lucky of you that you live so close to your work !

Looking at your SS (spreasheat) you are getting a more o less normal curve for a cat that is starting to get insulin, higher numbers around the time of his shoot and his nadir (lower number ) around the middle of the cycle (12 hour period) at +4 or +5 all of which is good, his numbers are a bit high but that's also to be expected since you are just starting

When was his first insulin dose? he will probably need a bit of a dose increase but we still have to give him a few days before changing dose, usually is recommended that they stay on the same dose at least a week when you are starting to give his body time to get used to the insulin and the depot to form properly
 
My goodness this is so timely as I too single and living my life according to my Simba's medical needs. Him and his geriatric older brother, a feral save with FIP who is now going on 17 with attitude. I pretty much have put my life on hold for now and at least enjoy the quiet while establishing my new household in a over 55 community I enjoy very much so far. If there is to be any romance it has to be on my terms at my house since I am on a timeline for pokes and shots. Travel is out of the question for now as any kind of overnights away from home until this resolves one way or the other. DOSING: after two months of treatment I am closing in on a proper dose of 2U 2X insulin but wonder when I should be judging for less insulin when his numbers are lower? How long a trend does one watch until dropping dosage?
 
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Yes, I could always live further from work. Just trying to make the point that I’m not in the position for this to be a full time job like it seems to be for some.

He’s had 10 doses so far. So does this info confirm that he’s diabetic or indicate anything about severity?

My Nigel is a little more needy than most cats, but that his part of his charm. I’ve never met another cat with that name either. Mine got the name because I thought a ginger cat needed a good English name.
 
I get it but to hear someone makes 20 minutes to work with traffic makes me green with envy.

By 10 doses you mean 10 days or 5 days with the dose twice a day? ( Just trying to make sure I understand correctly)

And unfortunately with numbers over 120 on top of 1 unit of insulin it looks pretty much like he's diabetic but it also looks like he's responding very well to insulin since he's curve is looking very well
 
Wow! Being able to get all that data is really helpful. Too bad it isn't a practical solution for long term use.

Unfortunately it looks like Nigel does indeed still have high BG and based on those numbers, it looks like he is diabetic. :(I know that is not what you want to hear and I can see why the timing really stinks for you but this really is quite manageable. The good news is that he is getting a decent curve so you're on the right track.

There are ways to save money treating a diabetic cat and it's possible a diet change might help bring his numbers down too.
I checked the TJs salmon and rice and it has a carb level of 11%. While not high, we recommend keeping carbs below 10 and optimally 6 or less. Some cats are more carb sensitive than others so even a 50% reduction could have a lowering effect on Nigel's BG.

My suggestion would be the following:
  1. Have a look at this food listing for foods that have 6% or less carbs. Popular inexpensive brands are Fancy Feast Classic (Pate) or Friskies Classic Pates.
  2. Get a human glucometer and use the time while you have the Libre installed to learn how to test and get Nigel accustomed to it. Then when the Libre falls off or the sensor runs out of time, you'll be able to carry on without missing a beat.
  3. Get a fasting BG before every shot by withhold food for at least 2 hours prior to checking the pre-shot BG.
  4. While the Libre is installed you can download whatever other readings you choose noting that the peak action time (lowest BG) with Lantus, frequently falls in the +4 to +7 post shot period.
  5. Keep inputting the data on the spreadsheet as you are able. (Cantankerous computers are a pain!)
  6. It is helpful to get a test around +2 or +3 as these times can in many cats predict how the rest of the cycle is going to go.
  7. Always take a test before bed at night so that if Nigel's BG looks like it's going to be an active cycle, you can take action to keep him safe and allow you to get some sleep.
I'm also going to give you a bit more homework to do. In the Lantus/Levemir forum, there are stickie notes at the top. Read through the notes there to familiarize yourself more with how Lantus works and the dosing methods we follow here. Ultimately, you will want to choose which method you prefer and then we can help you accordingly.

One other question. Did you get a vial of Lantus or do you have the pen? If you are currently injecting using the pen, it only allows dose adjustments in 1u increments and we recommend smaller dose adjustments of 0.25u or 0.5u at the most. The pen can be used somewhat like a vial so we use syringes with it. The syringes should be 3/10ml with 1/2 unit markings, 31gauge, and either 6 or 8 mm needle. Walmart has very reasonably priced syringes and there are some online retailers with good prices too. Let us know if you have any questions about this.

Last but not least, if you get a pre-shot BG test under 150, please do not feed Nigel or give him insulin and post here for advice. We will advice you to stall for 15 or 20 minutes and take another reading and then based on the second reading, offer suggestions as to how you should proceed. Information about this can be found in the stickies I mentioned above.
 
And just to be clear, this is not your new full time job although it may seem that way right now. It actually doesn't take much time at all, but in the beginning there is a lot to learn and we can help you get a routine that works for you . :)
 
Well with 5 days on insulin I also suggest you take a look to the information on the Lantus forum and decide which protocol you are going to follow, although for people like us that are single and work out of home, etc probably the Start Low Go Slow protocol is a bit better because you may not be around to test much during the day but is your call.

Lowering his carb intake will lower his numbers still a bit more so if you are planning to change his diet hold the 1 unit for a few more days until you transition him, doing it while he still has the Free style libre is probably a good idea and you can assess his dose after a few days on the new food. If you do not change his food then according with protocols you may need to increase his dose to 1.25 units in a couple of days

And really it gets easier once you establish a routine
 
Thanks again everyone!

I went to Walmart on my way into work and picked up a glucometer (ReliOn Prime), testing trips, and lancets and Friskies Pate.

Since I'm doing the Freedome Libre 2 hours before feeding him in the afternoon, it should be easy enough to get a fasting shot.

Also, I'm using the Lantus pen with syringes but they only have ticks for a single unit so I'd have to eyeball .25u.

Good to know about being below 150 being of concern.

I'll take a look at the Lantus forum later when I have time.
 
AmericanTemplar said:
Thanks again everyone!

I went to Walmart on my way into work and picked up a glucometer (ReliOn Prime), testing trips, and lancets and Friskies Pate.

Since I'm doing the Freedome Libre 2 hours before feeding him in the afternoon, it should be easy enough to get a fasting shot.

Also, I'm using the Lantus pen with syringes but they only have ticks for a single unit so I'd have to eyeball .25u.

Good to know about being below 150 being of concern.

I'll take a look at the Lantus forum later when I have time.[/QUOTE

I found and proved the Prime very accurate and giving shots from the pen also. Under advice from my Vet don't give shots under 150.
Click to expand...
 
AmericanTemplar said:
Since I'm doing the Freedome Libre 2 hours before feeding him in the afternoon, it should be easy enough to get a fasting shot
Click to expand...
Just to clarify.......you want a fasting test just before you give Nigel his shot so you know that his BG is high enough to give him insulin safely. The routine would be fasting test, feed, give insulin all within 5 or 10 minutes. :)
 
Darwin H. said:
DOSING: after two months of treatment I am closing in on a proper dose of 2U 2X insulin but wonder when I should be judging for less insulin when his numbers are lower? How long a trend does one watch until dropping dosage?
Click to expand...
It would be better if you were to start a new thread of your own with this question and we'll be more than happy to help you out. Don't want to get kitties confused here! ;)
 
No karo syrup. He doesn't need it. Is he willing to eat now? Mash his food down to avoid scarf and barf . His BG is high enough to give insulin but I'd suggest you feed him a bit to make sure he is willing to eat before giving shot.
 
Ok. Sorry my misunderstanding. No don't feed him now. Wait till shot time.
It sounds like Nigel is a grazer. That's ok but you may need to leave a bit more food out for him to keep him satisfied.
If he only ate half a can today, how much does he usually eat? How much is in the can?
 
I take it he hasn't been off appetite wise before now? Has he ever spit up Stomach acid before? It could be the lower BG numbers but it's something we need to keep in mind.
 
He’s always been pretty inconsistent with his appetite or at least he’s never been super food driven. Even in the morning when I feed him he’ll eat a bit and then leave. If I pick him up and put him in front of his food he’ll eat a bit more.

The last time that he threw up was also mostly just stomach acid.
 
I have to go put out garbage and throw around some salt due to a major deep freeze coming after a big snowfall. Be back soon.... before shot time.
 
Grant, Nigel is still a tiny bit elevated above normal so no problem there. He is in no danger whatsoever. Ok so if you are planning to stay in, let's stall on the food for 15 minutes and test again then to see if he is coming up on his own or still dropping. That lower BG could be from not eating as much today or it could be that the initial readings you got off the Libre were still elevated from the stress of the vet and having the Libre installed.
 
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