"No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic cats??

We sought advice from internal medicine at the UofMN on Smokey's diabetes while we were there for her mastectomy since we are making no headway, seem to be getting worse numbers, and are up to 8 units now. Wanted to have a contact there in case it turns out that the cancer is not the source of our BG woes. Unfortunately the consult was done with no review of her history other than the printed spreadsheet I brought so I don't think it was a very valuable consult.

One of the things the vet said during the consult and actually put in the discharge papers struck me as odd. "However, a second remission of insulin dependence is exceedingly uncommon in cats with diabetes, to the point where we know of no reported case." Yet I know I have seen it happen here, and on more than one or two occasions.

I'd like to send them some "documented cases" if anyone is willing to share their information. I'd like to print maybe a spreadsheet and provide some information on the cat. If your cat went into remission, went back onto insulin for a period of time, then went back into remission and would be willing to share the information please let me know.

edit to add: (this information is totally optional.It is some stuff I think would be valuable, but in no way necessary. A"yeah me, we are!" is just fine to )
Cat's Name and City, State:
Age at the time of first diagnosis:
Type of insulin:
Length of time on insulin:
Highest dose of insulin before the first remission:
Length of time in remission without insulin:
Length of time on insulin the second time:
Type of insulin the second time:
Highest dose of insulin the second time:
Length of time in remission the second time or still in remission:
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?:
Is there a spreadsheet I can print and include:

I'd really like to provide some updated information to them and show them that will proper monitoring and treatment we can expect better for our cats than just letting them sit in high numbers if they fall out of remission.

Thanks
Mel

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Hi Mel,

We are in our second "remission" right now (knockwood,antijinx) and would be willing to provide info for you.

My Paul-Kyle has been diabetic for 4 years now, and during the 3rd year +/-, once we were on Lev, PK had become so utterly predictable with his numbers and after so many years of observation I felt confident that I could pick up on lows and highs by looking at him and his actions (as I often did, then tested for confirmation), that we reduced our testing to once or twice a week or less. I can provide written statement that says PK was between 30-90 at PS, 100-200 at peak and was getting between .2u and .4u depending on the numbers at ps, but there is no ss leading up to his current OTJ (knockwood,antijinx).

You can click on the link in my sig for the last of our documented numbers on ss once startig insulin again, and I have the first of his history documented on the old board in his profile until he was OTJ the first time.

Do you still want our "case" without the last years worth of numbers?

Melissa

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Yes Melissa, thank you! I don't need all that information by any means, I think it would be helpful information , but not necessary.

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Here you go:

Cat's Name and City, State: Bandit--Ithaca, NY

Age at the time of first diagnosis: 7

Type of insulin: Lantus

Length of time on insulin: 11 months

Highest dose of insulin before the first remission: 1u (he was on 2u SID for about a week before I found the TR protocol and started testing and dosing appropriately. My vet was giving me bad dosing advice, and he never should have been on 2u, which is why the 1u is what I consider the real highest dose.)

Length of time in remission without insulin: 10 months

Length of time on insulin the second time: 1 1/2 months

Type of insulin the second time: Lantus

Highest dose of insulin the second time: 1.25u

Length of time in remission the second time or still in remission: still in remission, 7 1/2 months since second remission.

Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin? He had a traumatic dental--a nerve became inflamed because of the anesthesia, causing Horner's syndrome and vestibular problems, which resolved mostly within 2 months.

Is there a spreadsheet I can print and include: see my signature


In my opinion, whether or not a cat can go into remission multiple time depends on what causes the relapse. Did the owner start feeding dry food again? Does the cat need a dental? Did the cat experience trauma or infection that can be cured? Was the cat under a lot of stress for some reason, which can be resolved? A cat can relapse and go back into remission if the problem causing the relapse can be eliminated. In fact, I found it easier to get Bandit in remission the second time because he was in much better shape and I knew what I was doing--I started insulin within a few days of his elevated blood sugar, where the first time around I had no idea how long he had been diabetic before being diagnosed.

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Thank you Julie. That is also my opinion, that a cat is usually knocked out of remission for a reason and the underlying reason will often determine if a second remission is possible. That is why I thought it might be helpful to show if there was a reason found or suspected. To show that in cases where the underlying cause can be addressed, it is worth seeking that second remission.
We might not be one that reaches a second remission because besides the mammary cancer, her pancreas is quite enlarged/overgrown and that could be one of those cases where we can't fix what has knocked her out of remission. But I also don't this we should take the attitude that a second remission can't be achieved.

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Hi Mel. Alex enjoyed two honeymoons, but is back on insulin again. I don't have much hope of getting her back into remission a third time because I figure too much damage has been done. However, I continue to keep her tightly regulated for her overall health.


Cat's Name and City, State: Alexandra (Alex), Tennessee
Age at the time of first diagnosis: 8 years 4 months

Type of insulin: Lantus
Length of time on insulin: 3 months
Highest dose of insulin before the first remission: 1 unit BID
Length of time in remission without insulin: 2 years 22 months

Length of time on insulin the second time: 8 weeks
Type of insulin the second time: Levemir
Highest dose of insulin the second time: 1.6 units BID
Length of time in remission the second time: 5.5 months
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?: Gingivitis

Length of time on insulin the third time: 2 years and counting
Type of insulin the third time: Levemir
Highest dose of insulin the third time: 2.5 units BID
Currently on insulin: 0.9 unit BID
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?: Cholangiohepatitis and Acute Renal Disease

Is there a spreadsheet I can print and include: Yes, you'll find all data from 2006 through 2012 linked in my signature.

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

I think Binks is another one.... Celi - you out there??? :lol:

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Hi Mel,
BigMac is on his second honeymoon.

Name: BigMac (Maine Coon)
City, State: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Age at the time of first diagnosis: Age 9 at diagnoses, Sept 2008
Type of insulin: Vetsulin for 6 weeks. Switched to LEVEMIR
Length of time on insulin: 3 months in 2008
Highest dose of insulin before the first remission: 0.9 unit LEVEMIR - 2008
Length of time in remission without insulin: 2 years, 4 months
Length of time on insulin the second time: 11 weeks in 2011
Type of insulin the second time: LEVEMIR
Highest dose of insulin the second time: 1.25 units LEVEMIR - 2011
Length of time in remission the second time or still in remission: 9 months & counting, currently still in remission.
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?: Unknown
Is there a spreadsheet I can print and include: Yes: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p-xEC5L8UFvBHNXC9jYAmEQ

We don't know why he came out of remission and needed insulin again. I thought perhaps he had gingivitis which could trigger higher BGs, but he went into the 2nd remission several months before his dental cleaning and 2 extractions.

I hope this helps. Best of luck!

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Binks just missed having a daily condo in which he could complain about the "Turdie Gurlz"

Binks in Boise Idaho (neutered Manx girlie boy) :lol:
age at Dx 11 yrs
Vetsulin 3 mos. (likely non-viable vial), then lantus (TR protocol) for 8 months.
highest dose 2.25u
remission for 5 months
2 month return to insulin
highest dose 1.25u
2nd remission 4 months and counting :mrgreen:
underlying cause of falling off the wagon- absolutely poor feeding...his "caregiver" while i traveled fed HC and kibble "cause Binks asked for it" :lol:
Both his spreadsheets are in our signature.

I don't know if this is pertinent, but Binks was DESPERATELY ill when we found FDMB/DCIN and got started on lantus...
he could barely walk, and I didn't expect him to live out that week...(eternal thanks to his lightning action angel Venita)

Now he runs, jumps, plays non-stop...acts like a kitten
celi

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Maggie died in 2008. She was 18 years old and had been diabetic since she was 10. She had borderline CRF (1998), diabetic (1999) and HCM (hypertropic cardiomyopathy - 2006). She honeymooned twice. (She also received insulin twice during a honeymoon for 2 weeks each time due to Greenies/Cosaquin.) She spent most of that time on Humulin U, but got Levemir for the last year of her life.

Cat's Name and City, State: Maggie from Bowling Green, OH
Age at the time of first diagnosis: 10
Type of insulin: Humulin U
Length of time on insulin: 2 months
Highest dose of insulin before the first remission: don't know
Length of time in remission without insulin: 2 years
Length of time on insulin the second time: 2 months
Type of insulin the second time: Humulin U
Highest dose of insulin the second time: don't know
Length of time in remission the second time or still in remission: 5 years
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?: Cardiomyopathy

Is there a spreadsheet I can print and include:
No spreadsheets back then, but her page is here http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/p ... php?8,2535

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Thanks so much everyone. I hope to put together the information when we go back down with Smokey just to show her that there are REAL cats out there going into remission a second time and they shouldn't just give up on those of us who have fell off the wagon!

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Maggie looks like my Trinket. Was she a blue point Siamese? I've always liked your avitar.

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Yes, Maggie was a blue-point siamese. Thank you for admiring her! I always notice your Trinket's avatar, too. Such a lovely kitty! But she looks a lot fuzzier than Maggie was. Does she have long hair?

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Cat's Name and City, State: Jewel, Vancouver, B.C.
Age at the time of first diagnosis: 10
Type of insulin: caninsulin
Length of time on insulin: one year
Highest dose of insulin before the first remission: 1 unit once a day
Length of time in remission without insulin: 3 years, 4 months
Length of time on insulin the second time: one week
Type of insulin the second time: caninsulin
Highest dose of insulin the second time: 1 unit once a day
Length of time in remission the second time or still in remission: 7 months and counting
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?: i really dont know, to be quite honest. or why it went away so fast after such a short time on insulin cos her numbers were pretty high and were probably high for a while before i realized something was wrong

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Cat's Name and City, State: Boo Radley; Blowing Rock, NC
Age at the time of first diagnosis: 12
Type of insulin: IDEXX PZI
Length of time on insulin: 5 months
Highest dose of insulin before the first remission: 1.75 but used sliding scale/TID
Length of time in remission without insulin: two 1/2 years
Length of time on insulin the second time: 7 months
Type of insulin the second time: Levemir
Highest dose of insulin the second time: 2.5
Length of time in remission the second time or still in remission: still in remission
Was there an underlying cause found for the return to needing insulin?: No obvious reason found
Is there a spreadsheet I can print and include? One in signature but not complete. Sorry!

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Maggie looks so shocked and offended in her avatar pic! :lol: :lol:
Pure Meezer style!

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Reading thru these I just saw someone write (gotta go re-check but wanted to get this question out here) that during a "remission" they had to give insulin due to
"greenies cosoquine" ?? I just finished 2 months of giving Robbie Cosequin for his arthritis and am sure that the fact that I gave him the pill (emptied) into a tablespoon of FF with gravy every morning for those 2 months (he simply would not eat it not even in chop meat or chicken) - what's the story on this for our sugarcats?

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

Greenies chicken and salmon pill pockets contain corn syrup and corn flour, so they can cause higher blood sugar. Fortunately, in 2010 Greenies came out with a new flavor of pill pockes that is diabetic safe and won't raise blood sugar: http://www.amazon.com/Greenies-Pill-Pocket-1-4-Ounce-pouch/dp/B003D7U5RK.

 

Re: "No documented cases" of second remission in diabetic ca

OH, so maybe she was giving the pills inside a greenie? I was emptying them into the gravy of the FF and having him lick it up - they are capsules and are big so I couldn't figure how to give them to him. Neither of my cats has ever liked or would eat any of those "treat" type things - odd - and they won't touch greenies.