? Pooper's BG of 36

Hey everyone. Reporting back on Poopers. My girlfriend and I were doing some research yesterday on some natural remedies to help combat diabetes. We found an overwhelming article about Coconut oil and helping diabetes. Luckily, we have a big jar of Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil and it said to use about 1 tbsp of it on their food. So I put some in his mouth and mixed it into his food as well. His AMPS was 322 which I took at 8am. After giving him the coconut oil and him eating a bit but not much at +4 hours later he is 117! He has NEVER been this low at this time of day. He is still usually hovering in the 300s. So not sure but something is going on and so I will keep doing this. Plus he is getting now 6 units of insulin but I was giving him that dose before a few days ago and he didn't budge much. However doing all of this now is doing something to him in a good way.

 

Interesting! A tablespoon seems like a pretty large dose for a cat. You'll probably want to start with very small amounts and increase gradually to avoid digestive issues.

 

Just a word of caution...

Be careful with oil for a few reasons: Too much of any kind of oil can cause kitty to have diarrhea. 2 tablespoons or even 2 teaspoons of coconut oil will give any of my cats loose stools. I suggest starting with a very small amount and gradually increase the amount based on what you're seeing in the litter box. Be aware that too much of any kind of oil might prohibit proper absorption of nutrients in the gut. Coconut oil is also high in calories... sometimes not the best idea if kitty is um, "fluffy".

That said, many of us have given our kitties coconut oil. I did find it may have been slightly helpful in lowering blood glucose, but to be honest didn't see enough difference to offer it daily. Your mileage may vary.

After looking at Poopers' spreadsheet, I suspect he would have shown us a little blue today anyway. A couple of cycles on the increased dose probably helped that a long.

Good luck with the increased dose. FWIW, I think you're on the right path...

 

I am backing off to .5 teaspoon a day. The guideline is 1/4 tsp for 10 pound cat.

 

I think your good numbers are from the increase.... not the coconut oil.
maybe you're getting closer to a good dose, especially since he is a big guy.

but that coconut oil will make his hair much nicer and softer..... and it is a great laxative.

 

Wow! Something must be working and I'm guessing it is the coconut oil! I just checked Pooper's glucose and it was 36! So I fed him dry food immediately and going to give some Karo. Holy crap, he has never gone that low before. So the coconut oil must be jumpstarting his pancreas big time. I may have to reduce the insulin now too.

 

sounds like you found the breakthru dose.... congratulations on a dose reduction.....
but I'm hoping you will do it as advised.... and not reflexively....

 

Please keep monitoring him. 36 is way too low. You need to get him above 50.

 

You want to steer with teaspoon of HC gravy, not dry food (takes too long both in and out). if you don't have HC gravy, then mix a couple drops of karo in with LC food. Monitor frequently and post back here your next number... note what food you gave him, what amounts, and what time in relation to the last BG. Don't overfeed, you want to keep him hungry in case he continues needing to be fed to keep his numbers up.


Also, can you please edit your subject line to note the 36 BG and to alert folks so they can keep an eye on you/your thread.

 

Ryan, any update on Poopers' BG?

 

It's very disconcerting that Ryan hasn't come back online, Suzanne. I thought he'd have updated by now.

 

Me too. I'm hoping he's getting notifications. My phone goes crazy with notifications.

 

Me too. I've just sent him a message also, asking if he and Poopers are OK and trying to get him to check back here to update.

 

Just checked it at +1 later and its 81 now! This after giving him a dab of Karo and mostly the YAZC dry food

 

Please keep an eye on him, Ryan. The 81 is a food spike. It is entirely possible that he will dip again when that food spike wears off.

 

Don't see how. His numbers climb after the +8 mark. I know how his body works now. He starts to climb after +8 mark. I probably won't give a shot tonight

 

As a courtesy to people watching out for you and Poopers, if you post a low number like that, folks are by nature going to be concerned and and waiting for updates to be certain you have the information needed to ensure your kitty is safe.... In fairness you want to report back what is going on so those invested know if you need help or everything is ok. And with kitty at 36 it's probably NOT the best time to leave for an errand.

 

I'm telling you from experience that his numbers COULD drop again. It is not a guarantee. It is not something that will absolutely happen. The 81 an hour after you give karo and dry food IS a food spike. It is his body reacting to the karo, not just his numbers going back up. Will they drop again? Who knows. I certainly hope not. The point that I'm trying to make to you is that you need to keep an eye on him and test his BG for the next few hours to make sure his BG does NOT drop again. A hypo with Lantus can last for hours. Will this happen to your cat? WHO KNOWS. I'm just trying to impart to you the severity of the situation you are currently in, one that COULD be detrimental to Pooper if you are not diligent in watching and testing him. Once you are sure, and by sure I mean backed up by tangible BG tests, that his BG is rising, then you can relax.

You have not experienced a hypo event with Pooper before so, with all due respect, no you do not know how his body will react in this situation. You may suspect he won't drop again. But you have nothing but your gut feeling to back that up.

 

WELL LIKE I SAID, I KNOW MY POOPERS BODY DUE TO WHAT I HAVE BEEN GOING THROUGH SINCE LAST OCTOBER. HE GOT HIS INSULIN SHOT AT 8AM THIS MORNING AND USUALLY HIS LOWPOINT IS AT THE 8 HOUR MARK. IT HAS PASSED AND SO HE USUALLY CLIMBS UP AFTER THAT. I HAD THIS OCCUR BEFORE WITH A MISTAKE ON INSULIN SHOT INTO FUR. SAME SCENARIO AND HE DIPPED BUT THEN AFTER A CERTAIN TIME HE BOUNCED BACK UP. ALL I KNOW IS THAT WHEN IT COMES TO TEST TIME FOR INSULIN AND HE IS STILL UNDER 130 I WILL NOT GIVE A SHOT.

 

88 now

 

Ryan, please don't shout at all the people here who are trying to help you keep Poopers safe. I know he has a usual pattern, but that pattern doesn't involve dropping to 36 either. Even if his nadir is usually around +8 or earlier, they can move - for instance Rosa's nadirs were usually around +4 to +6, but occasionally could be as early as +2 or as late as +11. What people here have been asking you to do today is the same thing we ask everyone to do - get him safely above 50 and then check every 30 minutes until you're sure he's rising without high carb food in his system. Please believe me on this - it's for his own safety. I've seen two instances this week alone where cats didn't come back up easily even after high carb food, or dropped back down as soon as it wore off and only those frequent tests gave the owner any clue that things weren't quite working as we might expect them to. That 36 was below normal range for a non-diabetic cat and with insulin in Poopers' system pushing his numbers down even as you're trying to bring them back up, that sort of situation can turn very bad within minutes. It's great that he's earned a reduction today - I really am delighted for you that he's got into really good numbers on his new dose, but please help all of us to help you keep him as safe as possible while he's been in much lower numbers than he's used to.

 

Ryan as a fellow frustrated pet parent I totally understand your frustration with Pooper's numbers up until now. My Tuxie is totally unregulated and I have spent 100s and 100s of hours since November, reading and searching and reading and searching for the "answer" to fix my Tuxie. I have spent months seeing his numbers hang in the blacks and reds in spite of regular increase and checking out any possible underlying causes.

There are two wonderful mantras..."every cat is different" and "know your cat". The other great piece of advice is "do no harm". I KNOW my Tuxie and have his pattern..onset, nadir and when his numbers rise, all down to a T. But every now and then Tuxie decides for no good reason, to mix things up. His usual nadir is between +6 to +8, but a few times in the last few weeks he has thrown me a nadir into +10. So just when I thought I had his "pattern" all down pat HE changes things.

Right from the start I was more scared of Tuxie having a hypo attack than his high numbers. Oh, I was definitely worried about his high numbers, since they can cause organ damage over time, but an unwatched hypo can literally kill. I had my hypo kit all set up, with the syrup and HC food, right from the start. It was only about a month ago I actually had to use it for the first time and I was totally freaked out. Since then I have become more confident about dealing with low numbers and use a more regimented approach. But there were times when he was running low or dropping fast that I changed plans and stayed home to monitor him. As I said hypo numbers scare me much more than hyper numbers.

You know your Pooper and how he reacts, but his body can change out of the blue. Diabetes is a complex endocrine disease. If there was an easy fix then all people, cats, dogs and other animals would be OTJ or well regulated and there would only be one "magic" insulin that worked for all. I have had to learn patience, something I often have in short supply. I have listened to more experienced posters and although I have not always followed their suggestions to the letter, I take their experiences as a very good guideline.

Emotions can often run high, especially when we are frustrated and upset because our precious furkids are not getting better, or not as quickly as we would like. I have been frustrated, burnt out, angry and happy all in the same day, depending on how my Tuxie is doing. This sugar dance is a very difficult one to learn and to follow, especially when you read how quickly some people have the furkids come OTJ. But the dance is what the dance is. The people here try their best to be supportive and give advice or directions to everyone. Many of the posters become emotionally vested in the welfare of other people's cats, even though they have never met them. They become concerned when they see potential problems and try to assist with keeping our kitties safe. No one here is paid for their time...they do it out of care and love for our "kids".

Please listen to people...even when you know your own kitty better than anyone....what is being said is for the welfare of your kitty and every kitty here.

Good luck with Pooper's path to recovery.

 

Hi Pooper's dad,

I just wanted to give you the information on how to handle a hypo when you're using the Start Low Go Slow method:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/how-to-treat-hypos-they-can-kill-print-this-out.15887/

GENERAL RULE OF THUMB FOR TREATING HYPOGLYCEMIA


This document may be printed or email Melissa at jur@eee.org for the newest file to keep on your computer.

Your best defense against hypoglycemia is home blood glucose testing. If you’re not already doing so and your cat allows it, I HIGHLY recommend you test before each shot.

Hypoglycemia or low blood sugar is a dangerous condition that must be treated immediately. Also known as insulin shock or insulin reaction, hypoglycemia occurs when there is too much insulin in the body potentially leading to neurological damage and/or death.

Knowing how to respond to a hypoglycemic event whether or not symptoms are present can save the life of your diabetic cat. The following general guidelines are intended for those who home test the blood glucose levels in their cats. These guidelines are not intended to replace the advice given by your Veterinarian. It is very important that you discuss any and all treatment options with your cat’s physician BEFORE an event has occurred.

SYMPTOMS
Some cats may have NO symptoms whatsoever, but here are the most common ones:

MILD HYPOGLYCEMIA
Sudden ravenous hunger
Shivering
Weak or lethargic

MODERATE HYPOGLYCEMIA
Disorientation
Trouble with vision... bumps into furniture
Poor coordination, such as staggering, walking in circles or acting drunk
Changes in head or neck movements
Restlessness
Urgent meowing
Behavioral changes, such as aggressiveness

SEVERE HYPOGLYCEMIA
Convulsions or seizures
Unconsciousness


TREATMENT

During treatment for hypoglycemia, try to test every 15 - 20 minutes until you see the bgs begin to rise. Then continue to test until you are satisfied that the cat is out of danger.

VERY LOW NUMBERS – WITHOUT SYMPTOMS
Retest glucose using a large blood sample to make certain you have enough blood, and if you still get a very low number (under 40 mg/dL or 1.9 – 2.2 mmol/L) administer a teaspoon of corn syrup, liquid glucose, pancake syrup or honey, or INSTA-GLUCOSE and follow with food until the blood glucose numbers rise to acceptable levels. The syrup can be mixed with wet food or poured over dry if the cat will eat the mixture. If using liquid glucose, dilute with water for a thinner consistency.
​

There is more to this page that includes how to handle other situations, for example if the cat IS having symptoms. I think your 36 was without symptoms, so I copied this part. The entire page can be reached from the link I posted above. Most people use corn syrup (karo), honey or pancake syrup - any sugar syrup will work to bring up blood sugar quickly.

Suzanne is right that blood sugar can wobble around once you've got it up. I don't know how YAZ works because it is supposed to be low carb, and if that's true, then it wouldn't raise blood sugar as quickly or effectively as using a sugar syrup. If the cat gets into low numbers at a point in the cycle when the insulin hasn't yet reached its peak and the blood sugar is still going down, it's definitely possible for the sugar to wear off and the cat's blood sugar to drop back into low numbers again.

Don't forget to take your dose reduction with his next shot. I would give credit to the increased dose for this 36. A number under 90 on a human glucometer means a reduction. Since he is on a higher dose of insulin, I would reduce him by 0.5u. Remember, though, that the depot from a previously larger dose (this 6.0u) can still be helping control blood sugar for as many as 6 cycles after a reduction, so even with a dose reduction, you can't assume that he won't get into low numbers again within the next few cycles. Just a heads-up.

Here's the link to SLGS - it's recently been edited and now includes directions on how to handle the shot if you are faced with a lower preshot. Skipping isn't your only option.

As far as the coconut oil goes, people give oil to cats to help with constipation and hairballs. I'd drop back to that 1/4 teaspoon you mentioned was recommended. No one wants a kitty to have diarrhea . . .

 

I still get a little freaked when Max drops under 40. I hope you tested at least every 30 minutes until over 50. I'm sure you don't want to go to the ER due to a hypo. Congrats on the reduction. That old dose depot may lead to more low numbers unless there's a bounce.

 

Hey Ryan

I honestly think it was just a coincidence that his numbers dropped when you gave coconut oil. I gave it to Gracie for quite some time and it had no effect on her BG. What it did do was drastically raise her triglycerides which is not good for a diabetic cat. That might not be a normal response but for anyone using it, they should check labs after a month and make sure.

The actual research on coconut oil and glycemic control is very limited. It's not enough to convince me, as a biologist, that it would affect the BG and especially not with one dose of it as you gave today.

What did catch my eye in your post was that you said he hadn't eaten much. An increase in insulin and a cat that hasn't consumed much food is a recipe for lower numbers. It's also possible you just coincidentally hit the breakthrough dose. Time will tell.

I don't think coconut oil is a bad thing for humans or cats as long as it doesn't mess with Pooper's triglyceride level, but, as Jill said, you need to start really low and work up. I would not even start at 0.5 tsp...I'd give just a drop or so and every few days increase it.

 

Marje. I was told that not all coconut oils are the same and works. You have to give Organic Extra Virgin Coconut Oil.

 

Find it also hard to believe your theory in it raising triglycerides when they are composed of MCT which are healthy saturated fats that help to raise HDLS and thus lower your bad cholesterol.

 

it was Marje that told all of us about coconut oil....

Ryan, She Knows her Stuff....her opinion is gold around here......

 

Just for edification, because I studied coconut oils quite a bit before I let my cats have them and also worked with our vet who specializes in nutrition, I'd like to address your comments about triglycerides, MCTs, etc.

Coconut oils are not like olive oils and there is no standard for virgin vs extra virgin. If you are buying extra virgin, it's just a marketing technique. ..and they might be charging you more. Be sure you check into the product you are buying and make sure that, in addition to "virgin" (which should mean it is unrefined), that it actually is unrefined. You don't want to use "liquid coconut oil" of any variety because the lauric acid is removed and that is the medium chain triglyceride (MCT) that is most beneficial in organic, virgin coconut oil.

Every person and animal is different in how they process macro/micro nutrients and other substances. If you have the time and inclination, you can go back to Gracies 2012 SS and see I started her on organic, virgin coconut oil on 10/21/2012. You would also see on her lab SS tab that her triglycerides on 10/5/2012 were 153 and prior to that, had been about there or lower. On 11/6/2012, her triglycerides had doubled and by 12/20/2012, they were over 700. We stopped the coconut oil and her January, 2013 bloodwork showed her triglycerides dropped back to 90. We had made no other changes during that timeframe.

Interestingly, the coconut oil never increased triglycerides in our civvies.

There are only a couple of very small, limited studies in mice regarding the effects of virgin organic coconut oil (VOCO) on triglycerides and only one very, very small sample size study on VOCO effects on triglycerides, BG, and cholesterol in mice who were intentionally made diabetic for 72 hours. I would not use those studies to make any decisions about coconut oil, triglycerides, and diabetic cats.

I have recommended the use of VOCO to members in FDMB and just advised they should keep an eye on the triglycerides as there isn't enough data or research and it could have just been Gracie's own physiology which caused the rise in triglycerides with the use of coconut oil.

And there have not been any conclusive studies that VOCO lowers your LDL; only that it "might" raise your HDL. In fact, some studies indicate it can raise your LDL unless you switched from a diet high in butter and lard to VOCO...then you might see a slight drop in LDL.

 

Um ... remember - cats have a somewhat different physiology and may respond differently to things that work with humans. And eats are individuals (ECID) and can (not will) have idiosyncratic responses to things other cats may handle well.