Randy's Pmps(Updated)

We gave him a test this morning and his bgl was 250 then we fed him and it's down to 228. should I give him an insulin shot, and how much? See previous threads about randy here:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29125
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=28975

Thanks for your help!
Edit: The second test, we did 45 minutes after he ate.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

It really helps if you post your numbers in one place so we can see it at a glance, until you get your spreadsheet up. I think this is what you have so far:

pmps. 2 units PZI
+10. 187
+ 12 107
+13 119
+25 250 Fed
+26 228

So the food brought him down.....This is a very good sign. It means there is pancreatic activity.

IMHO, I would be tempted to go with .5 units. He is doing pretty well on this own, but they are still diabetic numbers. Will you be home today to keep an eye on him? If not, I am not so sure. Hope others will chime in.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Ah I'm sorry about that. I'll make sure to keep it in this thread.

Yes, we'll be home all day

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Well, now I am rethinking it. If he is nearer 200, maybe you should wait a while and make sure the bg goes up. He is responding very well and he does have some pancreatic activity. Wish someone else would weigh in.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Yeah I was wondering that too. Maybe we should give him a couple hours and test again? Yeah, I was hoping more people would respond quicker heh, I don't want to take too long if he needs the insulin.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

He's getting extra duration, so you definitely need to drop the dose when you do shoot. I think he needs a tiny dose of insulin even if his numbers go down a bit after eating. And the only way to know is to try, so if you have time to monitor, I'd personally give 0.5

Jen

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Gave him half a unit. When should I test his bgl again?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Glad Jen jumped in. I was thinking .5 was okay, but worried since he got such a long duration and has pancreatic activity.

If you want to play it safe, do another test and see what you get.

If you decide to give insulin, just to be safe, print off the hypo guide: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/view ... 28&t=15887 Take several tests during the day and feed several small meals.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Good question...since we don't know how soon the insulin kicks in with him, perhaps wait an hour or two and then see where things go. And fairly frequently after that...ie every hour unless he starts going too low.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

You can wait an hour or so. Just be watching him.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

What do I do when he starts going too low??

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Up 2 posts, I gave you the URL for the hypo link. It tells you what to look for and how to react. It would be if you get numbers in the 30-40 range.

As long you are 60 and above, just watch and take tests. Come back on if you get a number that makes you nervous and people will help. You can feed lowish numbers with lo carb food, or high carb food if the numbers are lower.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Gotcha, so basically I'm testing him and watching until the next shot to make sure he doesn't go low? I'll post throughout the day with my readings in this thread.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Sounds like a plan. I am leaving for the morning but will check back to see what numbers you got this afternoon. Hope you have an uneventful but nice numbers day! :mrgreen:

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Sorry so slow to respond.

I agree if his bg's come down after eating his P is working some.

New Prozinc users can get an early drop anywhere from +2 to +4.

I don't see any problem with waiting to make sure you're getting a rising number and I wouldn't shoot more than 1/2 unit.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Sorry, I missed the part that you already shot .5u.

Kitties new to Prozinc tend to get an early drop anywhere from +2 to +4 but as they settle into the insulin your nadir will move to somewhere from + 4 to + 8.

I'll go back and read your other thread and get up to speed.

Robin

 

Re: Randy's Amps

1/2 U was a good call, I'd stick with that for the time being. Get your spot checks and hopefully we'll see even better numbers as he gets comfortable in your home and the good food kicks in

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Well it's +1hr since the insulin and his bgl is down to 120. Is this a good thing or no?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Can you recheck his BG in a half hour?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Yes, most definitely. Why...is that a dangerous drop?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

It was a little steep for that early on, let's just be safe and check the BG again when you're ready. I wouldn't worry yet, let's just get numbers.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Alright we'll test again in fifteen minutes, that'll be a half hour.

Is there a chart somewhere that shows how the bgl is supposed to work in accordance to insulin administration and eating? Or that shows what levels are to not be worried about? I've found some charts but they don't seem accurate and I want to be able to kind of compare you know?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

I don't know if there's an actual chart, but Robin said ProZinc would drop faster from 2-4 hours. You've already dropped 100 points in hour. If the numbers continue to drop for another 3 hours, you may want to pull out some higher carb food.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Is that Purina Dm canned crap considered higher carb? The shelter gave us a bunch of it. If not, I'll send my bf out to get some.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Wow what a journey you are on. Bless you both for giving Randy a chance, you won't regret it.

You have gotten alot of great advise. When you have a chance go over to PZI and read the stickies about Prozinc. I would agree that you should post in Health for now, there is alot more traffic here than in PZI unfortunately, especially if you need an immediate response. But come over and introduce yourself and get to know us.

PZI's no shoot number is 200 until you have enough data gathered to see how he is responding to it.

Ok, so things have changed since I started this post. I agree with Jennifer to test every 30 minutes to stay on top of this.

I wouldn't worry yet but if he gets down to 60 or so I would have some higher carb food ready for him.

The early Prozinc drop doesn't usually keep dropping. They drop early and start coasting back up. The shelter kibble is probably high carb and will work.

Welcome to FDMB.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

He sure is keeping you on your toes!

There are two things you are looking to find out...trends and absolute numbers. By trends I mean how quickly does the insulin kick in and how long till nadir and when doeas it wear off. Also a general trend in how his body reacts to a particular dose at particular preshot levls. But you are also watching to ensure he doesn't go too low today.

There aren't any charts because each cat will respond differently. You will soon learn your cat's patterns.

Today he is showing a very quick response to the insulin, more than we would expect. So now you need to monitor until his levels start going up. While nerve wracking, it is valuable to know all this.

Jen

 

Re: Randy's Amps

He's now dropped to 108. What next?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

What does no shoot number mean? Does that mean to not shoot underneath 200 or above 200?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

For higher carb food, I believe the DM is higher than Fancy Feast gluten free flavors.

It's always good to keep a hypo toolkit on hand. Did you see the link to that? If you don't have some of the basics, like syrup, gravy foods and dry, I'd add that to your list to have on hand. Tucker's been on insulin for years, and we still need to break out the higher carb stuff once in a while.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2354

Test again in a half hour. He's still dropping, not as quickly as the first hour, but it's best to be safe. Still not in a dangerous level yet, let's see what the number is from the 108 after the half hour passes.

No shoot number means, not to shoot if the Preshot value is below 200 while you are still new and collecting data on how he reacts to insulin.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Ah okay gotcha. We have the purina canned dm food and we have corn syrup. Randy's just been laying on the couch all day.

So with him dropping like this could it be a sign that he might be going into remission or have a higher chance of it? I'm still kinda confused. I feel like a moron heh, sorry for all the questions.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

I've seen a few cats recently that were shelter cats, or cats that were going to be given up because they recently had become diabetic.

Those cats, two of mine and two that a friend here in CT has adopted, went off insulin pretty quickly. I believe that stress from the shelter - losing your home, the people you know, plus the not so great food from the shelter could cause transient diabetes.

You're not asking too many questions, you're doing a fantastic job with a wonderful new kitty. Could he be headed for remission, I think so, but only time will tell.

You have a wellness visit scheduled at your own vet soon if I remember correctly, right?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

That makes a lot of sense. The shelter he was in didn't have a "homebase" either so they used a mall store front for their adoption clinics which meant people always in and out and constantly poking through cage bars and such, certainly not a calm atmosphere for a kitty. And before that he was a stray they found in the streets of a local town. Plus they were feeding him the purina dog kibble which I'm sure wasn't too nice on his system.

Yes, we have an appointment for the 12th with Dr.Kohler from Harmony Veterinary Clinic in ballston spa, ny. She's wonderful, so hopefully she'll have some input too I especially still want to have the cloudiness in his eyes looked into.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Boy can I attest to what a stable home and a good diet can do for a former shelter kitty. We adopted Max from this board on the 15th of last month, within a couple of days of being at home with us he went into remission. Now he constantly gives me numbers in the 40-60 range. He is also approx. 12 years old.

You guys are doing a great job with Randy. And are in very capable hands here with Jen.

Mel

 

Re: Randy's Amps

He shouldn't keep dropping until +4. In my experience they drop, coast and start to rise.

I must be a slow typer. I'll try to keep up.

Cloudy eyes, diabetics are prone to cataracks sp? Harley has them, if you shine a light into his eyes they look like little white specks.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

It's been a half an hour, we retested and he's still at 108. Good sign, bad sign? Keep retesting?

EDIT: Also thought I should mentioned that despite Randy finishing his meal he has not had a bowel movement in a day and a half. How often should I go to the bathroom? He seems to be urinating regularly. I'm just being paranoid heh.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

It looks like he's bottomed out, that's a good sign. He should hang around these numbers for a while before going back up.

Keep testing to stay on top of it.

You're doing great.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Thanks So if/once he starts going up, should we keep testing or no?

Thanks again everyone for all your help. Randy appreciates it!

 

Retinal Atrophy in cats.........

Human diabetics and diabetic dogs are very prone to blindness......not so in diabetic cats.......rare. If you see cloudiness, it is more likely progressive retinal atrophy. Mishka has it......been to the opthamologist.........but it is not from the diabetes.


Progressive retinal atrophy in cats is a type of premature deterioration of the photoreceptor cells in the retina. There are two types of photoreceptor cells in the retina, cones and rods. These cells detect light and send the neural signals that allow the brain to interpret that light as images. Progressive retinal atrophy (PRA) in cats is a progressive disease that results in gradual loss of eyesight and eventual blindness.

How PRA Causes Vision Loss in Cats
In cats, progressive retinal atrophy usually affects the rods of the eye first. These cells are responsible for night vision. Cats with PRA lose their night vision first.

PRA is a progressive disease, and will eventually affect the cones of your cat's eye. These cells are responsible for day time vision. As your cat's cone cells deteriorate, he will go completely blind. Progressive retinal atrophy affects both of your cat's eyes at once.

Symptoms of PRA in Cats
The blindness associated with PRA may seem to appear suddenly, though in fact cats adjust very well to vision loss and may have been slowly losing their sight for some time before blindness becomes total and obvious to the owner. Many cats show no signs of illness until total vision loss occurs. Most cats diagnosed with PRA are already in the later stages of the disease.

Symptoms of PRA include blindness, bumping into things, reluctance to jump up or down or reluctance to go outside. Cats may exhibit poor vision in low light conditions; that's one of the first signs of PRA. Pupils will remain dilated as your cat loses vision, and your cat's eyes may seem to reflect more light once his pupils become more dilated.

Feline progressive retinal apathy is rare in the U.S. Purebred cats, such as the Siamese, Persian and Abyssinian succumb to this illness more often, though it may appear in mixed breed short hair cats. Progressive retinal atrophy in Abyssinian cats appears to have a strong link to heredity, though vets don't know what genetic factors may be involved in cases of PRA in other breeds.

Diagnosing and Treating PRA in Cats
Your vet will need a complete medical history and physical exam to diagnose PRA. Your vet will perform a number of tests designed to measure the extent of your cat's vision loss. A common test used to measure the extent of vision loss involves evaluating your cat's performance on an obstacle course under both dim and bright light conditions. Your vet will also test your cat's neural reflexes and your cat's pupillary response to light.

You may need to see a veterinary opthalmologist to determine the extent of the damage to your cat's eyes. The opthalmologist may take corneal stains and measure the pressure levels within your cat's eye, as well as examining the structures of your cat's eye.

PRA can't be cured, and there's no therapy to treat it. Cats can adjust quite happily to vision loss, though cats with PRA should not be bred, since the disease has a genetic component.



Read more: Progressive Retinal Atrophy in Cats

 

Re: Randy's Amps

He's now dropped to 92 and I'm kinda freaking out. Is something wrong? Should I do something?

Edit: This is +3 hours btw.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

92 is still an ok number. but you're gonna have to keep testing since he's clearly still dropping

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Are you feeding him anything?

Might be good to give him some low carb at this point, to help keep it from going lower.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Numbers are looking good, but as others have said, continue to test today to be sure.

I wonder if dropping the dose to 0.25U BID may be a good idea. This way you can work up to the correct dose, whether it stays at 0.25U or goes up to 0.5U.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Back up to 117 after 30 mins. Giving him a little food now too.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Thirty minutes after eating he's at 112. Should we continue to test or do you all think he's stable at this point? Is it a good or bad sign that he barely went down after eating? Thanks

 

Re: Randy's Amps

I can only offer my own experience - in that when my cat started on wet food, his poops only came every 2 days - on dry food it was every day. Dr. Pierson told me this was to be expected. BTW your numbers are looking real good. Excellent work.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Actually feeding him low carb wet is to keep his bg's where they are for right now.

I would keep testing, this is great information for you to use as you proceed, and will catch him if he dips a little. I think you are ok for now, he will probably hang around in these numbers for awhile longer.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Note: glucometers are plus or minus 20% from actual readings!

ex.
a reading of 100 could be as low as 80 and as high as 120.

So if 2 readings are within 20% of each other, they may be representing the same value.

Keep monitoring and observing behavior.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

This is probably a really dumb question. But how do you know when a cat has went into remission and needs no more insulin? I just read a big article about it and feel like a deer in headlights as far as understanding it.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

That's a great question.

When Mr. Darcy came to my home he was on Vetsulin insulin BID, he got some the morning he traveled up from Virginia (I believe) to me in Connecticut. That night I tested him he was under 70. He stayed under 70 for day, then every other day, then every other week. He was in remission from day one.

Bean, she needed insulin for the first week and a half. I changed her food and she was a steroid induced FD, I believe it had been a while since her last steroid shot. Previous caretaker kept noting trace ketones so I was nervous. When she started getting preshots values that were mid 100s I started to test her on food only. She stayed in the low 100s, then starting go even lower without needing any insulin.

Another cat I've been working with, the one from the shelter named Porch that DCIN is helping with. He took shots only once per day. His duration (the amount of time one shot of insulin lasted) kept getting longer and longer. 12 hours, then 18 hours, then 24 hours. Finally he stopped needing insulin a couple of weeks ago.

If you post numbers daily people here can help you intrepret them, whether he may or may not need a dose. Whether to try to bring his numbers down by using food. The decisions will be yours to make, but we can tell you about our own experiences and help you along.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Thanks for the explanation I was able to easily understand that hah. I also have another question, is there a way to get the test strips quicker. We got a 20 count for our relion micro and that costs 9 bucks and we're running through them fairly quickly. Is there anywhere to find them cheaper? I've posted on craigslist and am hoping to get some responses under the items wanted section.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Locally, the Walmart strips are usually the best price. You can check out eBay and look for deals on other strips. There are a lot of great meters out there and if you find a good dealer on eBay that you feel confident with, you can buy strips that way.

There are several good meters, the Accu Check Aviva, the One Touch Ultra, Bayer Contour, Freestyle brand meters. I'm sure others have more favorites they can add to this list. You can also find deals for meters a lot of times. Freestyle may have one now.

http://www.myfreestyle.com/fs/d/en_US/7 ... se-program

One Touch
https://www.onetouchdiabetes.com/offers ... 0accu-chek

I haven't tried the links recently, but if you fill out just pretend it's for a kid or for you, they don't give free meters to pets Once you get a free meter, you can check eBay for supplies.

Hopefully others will come along wih better ideas for you

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Ah thanks

My aunt has a freestyle light she said she'd give me but I was under the impression that the strips are more expensive than the relion.

Anyways! Were on +5hr and he tested at 115 mg/dl. We're cutting back the testing to hourly instead of half an hour. I suspect he'll stay around the same now?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Well, you certainly had a more interesting morning that we were counting on! The good news that Randy doesn't seem to need much insulin and you may have an off the juice kitty soon. What a fantastic job you have done keeping track of things and testing. When you look at your spreadsheet for the day, it is a nice curve. The lowest point was 92, right? Not bad - just a little nerve racking? And an early nadir as opposed to yesterday's late nadir. Randy is keeping you on your toes!

We bought our strips on ebay. There are lots for sale - mostly by senior citizens who get an ongoing supply every month, needed or not. Just make sure the seller has a good reputation and that the strips have an expiration date you can work with. They cost less than half the drug store price.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Well Randy is at +7 hrs and his bgl is 139. It took us forever to get him to bleed this time and when I flashed a flashlight at his ears, they looked all blood clotted or bruised. Is this normal or common? could this be why we couldn't get the blood? Is there another area to get it from? He really wasn't as cooperative cause it took us close to 30 minutes to do it which could also be why he's at 139 bgl. Any help would really be awesome. Thanks guys. OH! And I saw a video where a woman did it from the paw with the hometesting...is this really an okay idea or no? We were rotating ears all day but I don't know He was crying and I felt really bad.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Make sure you put pressure on his ear right after. His ears will toughen up and ypu won't normally test so often. Swtch ears and switch spots. I don't think a paw is necessary yet?

You have done great today

Jen

 

Re: Randy's Amps

That's a nice number! He is getting a nice long ride out of .5 units.

One way to help with the bruising is to hold the place you poked for a few seconds after the poke. You can also use neosporin on his ears to help heal any spots - with or without pain reliever. You could alternate ears, but you have been doing that. And you can move up or down the ears along the same line to find a new spot.

Some people do use the paws. Oliver hated his paws touched so that wouldn't have been an option for us. The only thing to watch out for is they need to be clean when poked.

You do want a method that you can use several times a day. I have a feeling Randy will keep you hopping until he finally goes off the juice.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

relion does have the cheapest strips as far as in the store goes. and as far as i know, you can only get the strips via walmart. maybe buying the bigger pack is more economical? i think the 50 pack is around $22 or the 100 pack is $50 something if i remember correctly.

freestyle is more expensive than relion for sure (i've used the freestyle meters for 4+ years now). in the stores they run $1.00 something a strip so 100 of those is a hair over $100 :-(

i usually buy mine online, either via ebay, hocks.com, or americandiabeteswholesale.com

i just tried using one that you can only get online and while less expensive, ay yai yai! what a PIA. LOL!! i'm going to switch back to my freestyle meters, or, i'm considering trying the new relion meters, either the micro or the confirm as they sound much like the freestyle in that there is no coding and take the least amount of blood. as long as they don't error out all the time like the one i'm trying now, i might stick with one of them but we'll see.

as far as paw pad testing, yeppers, if your kitty is one of the rare ones that doesn't mind their toes played with, you can certainly do it via the paw. here's a recent thread actually. read thru it and you'll see how many people actually do use the paw pads viewtopic.php?f=9&t=28591&hilit=paw+testing

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Thanks for all the replies guys! Randy actually never minds having his feet played with. I even squeeze his toes and play with them and he seems to love it so I might try that until his ears heal up a little more. I'll try some neosporin on them if I have any. They certainly look sore.

I'm really hopeful about his remission

And, Cindy I haven't had the Relion Micro do an error on me except once and it was our fault cause we didn't wait to get enough blood. But it needs VERY little and it's great. I've liked it so far. And yeah, they're 9 bucks for 20 strips and the actual meter is 10 or 12 dollars and it comes with the lancet pen. To get 50 strips it only costs twenty dollars

 

Re: Randy's Amps

I use the Relion Micro and love it. It does time out on me once in a while if Harley takes his sweet ol time getting settled in but needs only .3 for blood.

Someone on the board said that Sam's Club sells the Relion Strips for $18.50 for 50. But I can't swear to it because every time I go there the Pharmacy is closed.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

So do you all think it would be okay to wait to test around 8:00 or 8:30. It'd be around +10hrs. I wish we could just wait until before the shot(I hate going through these strips like this today!), but that might not be an option. If it's below 200 at pmps, no shot right? We feed him his second meal at that time before his shot. Should I test before or after he eats?

 

Re: Randy's Amps

I think you can wait till the time of the evening shot before testing again. Test before he eats. It'll be interesting to see where he is.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Yep, what Sue said and post his # here. We'll all be waiting to see what it is.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

We haven't been able to get any blood out of Randy. However I just realized that the lancets we were using were the ones that came with the pen, the ones we bought are the ultra thin ones. Could this be why?

It's very frustrating on all three of us. Randy is not happy with us.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Yes. Until his ears "learn" to bleed, the 25-26 gauge lancets work best.

 

Re: Randy's Amps

*head desk and face palm*

I feel like a freaking jerk. Going out to Wal Mart to get the lancets and we'll be back with his bgl soon hopefully!

 

Re: Randy's Amps

Phew! The lancets that we now have worked great. His ppm is 118. This is +13hrs right now. So no insulin tonight I assume? Is this a good sign? And should we test again?

 

This is a great sign. No insulin tonight.

We'll all be waiting for a new post tomorrow morning.

 

Def no shot and go to bed and do not over react tomorrow....