? Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Feline Diabetic DS 46

Back from VET and they recommend

Royal Canin Veterinary Diet Feline Diabetic DS 46
http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/dry_cat_food/royal_canin_feline_vet_diet/307276

Can someone please clarify if this is ok? I have read on here and i am sure everyone says wet food and not dry but they was adamant that this would be best suited. ?

P.S Money not a problem just want whats best for him.

 

It is really not that good. For a dry it is not that bad. However, a canned. low-carb is best. Typically pate food vice ones with gravy are low in carb. Some ones in jelly are also low-carb.

 

Thanks, to add he does have allergies and i think this is on the approved list for him to eat which is half a good reason for this. They do have a wet version which we can try once he is stable.

His glucose curve today was

insulin 6am + FOOD

8am > 17.2
9 am > 36.4
10am > 38.4
11 am > 34.3
12 > 33.4
1pm > 29.6
2pm > 28.3
3pm > 34.4

we now switching his food as he was on Hills C/D . VET said i feeding him too much and we need change food but his intial glucose level of 17.2 was an improvement from last week when it was lot higher. Including fact im over feeding and he stressed in vets the intial 17.2 is good . Good in comparsion how bad it was before.

Now need switch food and back in 2 weeks for a glucose curve re-test.

 

it is so confusing so many sites and here say no dry food but my vet who has been really good is saying this is ok??

confused what i should do...

 

im going to call vet tomorrow and have the awkard conversation that i want to ignore her advice. Unless anyone can advise me better? They ordered in the dry food as linked earlier today for tomrorow so will get to cancel and ill get some wet food. Such a crazy thing and pool of information online, but i do trust my vet which is why its so hard to decline her advise ??

 

Pop over to http://www.catinfo.org/to read the basics of feline nutrition. There are many commercial low carb wet or raw foods, even with unique and different proteins that can be tried to help with allergies. Cats on wet food also tend to lose their "fluffiness" they acquire with higher carb dry food. If he was on C/D for urinary issues, the website I mentioned also has a page on feeding for urinary issues, essential low carb/low phosphorus wet food with lots of water added.

 

The Friskies Special Diet pates are an economical, over the counter food for cats with a tendency to develop crystals.

 

I am in UK and don't think can get frisks. So no dry seems the way forward will have look if can find a wet suitable and he not allergic to

 

OK, I knew I'd seen something somewhere on here that @Elizabeth and Bertie had posted - I just had to go find it. This might help you figure out some foods to try:-

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...-including-link-to-low-carb-food-list.137376/

The list that's included as a link in that post has quite a few brands in there that I'm sure I used to see in Tesco every week so it looks as though you should have a decent selection of foods that are easy to find.

 

ok thanks just to state the obvious i should ignore the vet advice and look at the list provided here?

just want to be clear as i need to phone and it be awkward conversion saying sorry ignoring your advice im doing this .... appreciate all help

P.s he was only on C/D due to allergies.

 

Most of us here have ignored vet advice on food, yes. You can always tell them that it's cost prohibitive to feed the prescription food on top of the insulin and testing costs if you don't want to straight up refuse it. If it had been the wet food, you could have gone for buying just 2 or 3 cans if they pushed it and then said he wouldn't eat them, but I don't know how the money back works on a bag of dry food if you return most of it - maybe someone else here knows about that?

Before you go and buy a lot of different types of wet food - do you know exactly what it is he's allergic to or has that not been pinned down at all? You might find you need to avoid certain flavors of wet food to keep his allergies in check.

 

Money is not a problem i have already spent £10,000 on the cat over 3 years. Long as he gets well thats all that matters.

I am by far full of money but his health is No1 so i wouldnt let money overule that.

Yes i do have a list, i will have to dig out the sheet and upload it for you. He is allergies mainly to grass, weeds, caindita, (yeaast) turkey, lamb duck. Chicken is good for him for him ...

And since ignoring VET advice your cats are now at a stable / good level? this is all new to me still and i do feel strange ignoring her advice as so far been good with me. Let me dig up the info and post shortly. thanks

 

Oh, I understand that completely - that's pretty much how most of us think - but it might be a way of getting around your vet's insistence on the prescription food.

As long as you have a list so you can work around the ingredients he can't have that should work fine - you can probably do a lot of checking out the ingredients in the different foods online before you go to buy anything so you know which ones he can have without having to spend hours standing in the supermarket reading the different labels.

Oh, definitely. The high protein, low carb diet just works. That alone can take his reading down by about 5 points...or even more (on the UK BG scale). I do appreciate that it feels strange to go against vet advice, but that's what a lot of us have had to do in the end. My Rosa gets only high protein low carb wet food (the vet wanted her on prescription food), and I adjusted her dose based on the protocols and advice on this site...and she's been off insulin and diet controlled for over a month now. No-one can promise that that will happen for your cat, but the regular low carb wet food definitely works at least as well as any of the prescription diets (and better than any dry food, prescription or otherwise) to help keep BG levels down.

 

Ok thank you. Im just wondering if i should trial the dry food vet recommends and if not seeing the results in a month or so then switch to wet as per suggested. Head is really confused as i trust my vet as been so good but at same time i understand everything being said on here and other sites also. Makes it hard to decide.

What is the actual CARB content of the dry food i linked above? Not sure how to work that out..

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/dry_cat_food/royal_canin_feline_vet_diet/307276

Thanks

 

Looks like about 28% carbs (by calorie value). Personally, I wouldn't use it even for a month - we all try to stay with food that's under 10% carbs so it's way into the high carb range...the high carb food I was using to bring Rosa's numbers up when they were low came in at less than that.

A lot of us have had similar problems with our vets - vets we've always trusted for everything else. But it seems as though their experience and knowledge of feline diabetes is often less than the experience of everyone on this site.

 

Thanks for that. just spoke to vet and they said that the dry food linked is best as it has a different type of carbs to normal and is slow releasing which will help him be stable. They actually want a higher carb to get him settled at a lower level as it releases the carbs gradually rather than in 1 spike. Was mentioned that rather than a chocolate bar it would act more like a banana slower releasing.... She gave me a load of technical spill which has now gone over my head but they are adamant that dry food is best for now.

think she worked it out at 24% carbs .... head turner.

 

I hate to have to say it, but that information comes straight off the marketing-style packaging for the food...which has been hard-sold to your vet, probably for many years - that's what Hills and Royal Canin do with their foods. Low carb food doesn't release any carbs as a spike. While it's true that for a human a banana is better than a chocolate bar, cats as obligate carnivores don't actually need any carb intake at all (apart from the tiny, tiny amount that their natural prey might have eaten). He might stabilize, but it'll be at a higher level and/or on a higher insulin dose than he would otherwise need. And if you then switch to a low carb food, you'll be inviting a diabetic hypo - which pretty much leaves you stuck with prescription high carb food (which is what the manufacturer wants) and a cat with very little to no chance of being diet controlled.

Before you make a final decision on it, please ask your vet how many diabetic cats they have treated - currently and previously. And how many of them got good regulation. And how many of them achieved remission. Those numbers will tell you a lot.

 

Thanks very much. will ask some more questions.

Obviously i want him to be diet controlled and to get him off insulin which will free up my life also in terms of set times for injections. Going round on a roundabout here. appreciate all your help

 

Look at my spreadsheet and look at the dates 2nd and 3rd of May and compare. I started giving Frankie low carb food only instead of Royal Canin dry food on the evening of the 2nd. He doesn't do transitioning, he just picks out the new food from the old, so no point. Fair enough, he has bounced a lot since then, but his insulin is down and his numbers are improving.

 

I am still rather new to all this so do not fully understand the curve / levels. Was you using the same food as i linked above and when come off that the levels got better??

 

Frankie was eating Royal Canin dry food as linked above and higher carb wet food up until the evening of 2nd May when he switched to low carb wet food only. You can see for yourself how much better his levels were on the 3rd, he had never seen green or blue numbers in over a year of disgnosis, and although he is not yet stable or regulated with the food changes he is improving all the time.

 

Waving 'Hi' to you from Surrey!

It can be uncomfortable when our vets suggest one thing and 'those crazy folks on the internet' suggest something else. I think most of us have here have had some experience of that. And there are some of us here who freely admit we have learned to 'nod and smile' and then walk away and do something other than the vet has suggested. I'm one of them. I don't like doing it. But my experience with my own cat (and with seeing what has happened with zillions of other folks' cats here) has taught me that it is the right thing to do in this instance.
Don't get me wrong, I really like my vet. And he has provided great healthcare for my animals for quite a few years. But when it comes to feline diabetes....well....that's where our opinions differ just a wee bit....

Many vets do seem to have a mindset that so called 'prescription foods' are the way to go. But please see the following info written by vet Dr Lisa Pierson. She is an expert on feline nutrition and recommends that diabetic cats eat wet food that has less than 10% of calories from carbohydrates.
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

Is your cat actually on insulin yet? If so, then that changes things a little bit in that we'd only suggest switching to low carb wet if/when you have learned to test his blood glucose at home (way easier than it sounds!). That's because lowering the carb content of the food can reduce the blood glucose quite a bit; and a dose that may have been OK before could be too much after the diet change.

Ultimately, what you feed is your choice, of course. You have to feel comfortable (or as comfortable as you can be in the circumstances) with the choices you make. And any decision you make now won't be 'set in stone'. You can always change your mind later....

Eliz

 

Yes cat is on 0.5 insuling Caninsulin twice daily, 6am , 6pm.

His curve yesterday when i took him in was

(**** Currently being fed HIlls C/D Wet and he had 1 pouch & half at 6am. Probably too much but i am new to all this and have been told off as such for overfeeding *** )

6am Shoot
8 am 17.2
9 am 36.7
10 am 38.4
11 am 34.3
12 33.4
1 29.5
2 28.3
3pm 34.4

Now he also has allerigies and i uploaded an attachement hopefully can see it? From this and also your suggestions what is best food i can order online in UK or go to shop and buy? I need to change his food urgently. VET has got the new "prescription" food waiting for me to collect later but i think i may cause a stir and follow you guys and say sorry i want to try it my way first...

0.5 using VETPEN is lowest dose possible. No i do not home curve / test yet....

 

His curve from yesterday from VET

 

Thats it , im telling my vet i am going to

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/bozita/bozita/452635

Bozita in Jelly . 7.1% carbs. Can anyone , everyone please confirm this food as linked is all ok???? Thanks

 

or does it have to be canned only?? sorry really need to order ASAP . thanks

http://www.zooplus.co.uk/shop/cats/canned_cat_food_pouches/bozita/bozita_canned_cat_food/42669#more

 

I'm in the UK.. me and Murphy highly recommend Bozita tetra packs!
And for what it's worth my vet, who is great, doesn't particularly recommend P diets. He said change to wet solely however.

 

Thanks Canned or the Packs?? I hear canned is better or does it not matter?

 

I'm not entirely sure, sorry. I've always bought the tetra packs and only found out my cat is diabetic ten days ago. Hopefully someone more in the know will chime in

 

The canned has a higher protein content and less water. It is a pate style food.
The tetrapaks have slightly less protein and more water. They are more 'chunks in jelly-ish'.

For more UK foods see the link in my signature.
.

 

Thats great thank you. Because his numbers were so high on his old C/D food, the vet had the royal canin as mentioned above. He started his first dry food just now and insulin. The vet is still aamendmentthis is the best and i printed out all the facts about the other bozita.

Correct me for my stupidy, but can i give him the royal canin for a period of 2 -3 weeks, whilst i order the bozita, and then transition him to the wet?? Or is is best to just stop the royal and wait for bozita, but his old Hills C/D wet was giving him very very high results. I will have to just go against my vets advice and when he goes back for testing and hopefully amazing results i will say guess what i am on Bozita ? .

I could just confess and say sorry but i am doing this , but everytime i go there i am giving a whole load of spill that this Royal is best for him and to avoid using the other foods for the time being.

 

I really don't understand how that dry Royal Canin can be labelled "Diabetic". It is SO full of corn. When I discussed it with a veterinarian that is in rescue she had never heard of it (it is new), but when she researched it she found that it is for cats who are diabetic and also prone to urinary crystals and shouldn't really be used on other diabetic cats. Yet, sales people see Diabetic across the front of it and sell it for all diabetics. The rescue ChrisFarley came from tried to give me a leftover bag from another diabetic they had. I told her to throw it away. She hated to waste high cost prescription food, but I said its more of a waste to be feeding it to the cats and then chasing it with extra insulin to offset what it does to them. Someone was trying to unload some unused stuff in a rescue forum I am in and got mad at me because I told her to go feed it to the chickens. We feed chickens corn, not cats. I don't consider that RC "Diabetic" appropriate for any cat with the amount of corn products it has listed in the ingredients, let alone a diabetic

 

If anyone can be a legend plz help me pick best food taking into his allergies into consideration and I'm from UK . Knowledge here is great I will talk again to vet but if anyone can confirm bonzita canned any good or other alternative? Thank you

 

Also what is worst case scenario with cat if change food to 10% less ? His insulin is small at 0.5 can he have a low or hypo as not home testing yet ? Trying to work out if I can do behind vet back and just go back for glucose curve and if good readings then reveal what changes I done and ignored her food ?

#55A moment ago

 

I can't help with UK foods, hopefully some of our UK members can come along and help.
But in regards to what can happen with a food change, yes a cat can go low while getting insulin when you change their food if they are suddenly getting more insulin than they need. Cats get too low even on 0.5U, Sly hit the 40s on that. Your numbers are still pretty high, but I'd recommend getting started on home testing as soon as possible.

 

Changing to a low carb canned food (you'll have to read the labels to make sure the contents are not allergens for your cat) may reduce the glucose 100-200 mg/dL or 5.5 to 11.1 mmol/L.

 

ok i am going to order canned Bozita now, and a terka pack as a backup incase he does not like the canned food..

I will keep an eye on him and fingers crossed goes well. Sounds like a good plan?

 

Food changes tend to work better when done gradually over several days. Change about 20-25% if the food each day. Stay at a level for a day or two if the cat seems off, vomits, has diarrhea, etc.

Ever change we make for our diabetics is always an experiment. You have a reasonable chance at success and sometimes the cat will react in a way that is totally unexpected. You just do the best you can.

 

Advice please :

Cat last few days been very largargic, so much yesterday i took him emergency vet as he would normally at least greet me after work and then lay, but he was curled up not moving under bed, managed to get him out (lifting bed) and he did eat food and have injection but he seems like he is dead weight in terms when sitting not really opening eyes and so so tired.

Vet gave him check over and seems no serious signs of anything in terms of heart, lungs etc. His levels were 17 which was 2-3 hours after his injection, which is where he normally is at that time with his level.

Today my partner said he is the same very tired, only comes down to go toilet, and seems so tired. What would you do? Feed him a little?

I know it will take time for his level to balance, i am waiting on bozita cat food to arrive in post but currently mixing the Prescrption royal canin food with his old wet food C/D .

I dont think he is in "danger" as such but very concerning he is so tired 24/7. I may have noticed a small shivver in his tail when i put his food down before? Maybe in excitement or maybe its a sign of something?

 

Are you testing his blood glucose?
If he is too high, that can make him lethargic.
If he is too low, he may be lethargic before going into seizures.

 

No. and from reading it will be beacuse too high 30's /40.

His lowest ever was 17.

I've been feeding winston ad hoc last day and half sheeba and he seems lot brighter and actually played earlier ... Anyways vet said to just keep twice daily feed with diabetic food as glucose level will rise and counter act the insulin ....... ?? I'm going to feed him 3-4 days ignore that . Also ordered alpha track to do home glucose testing .

Until bozita arrives my plan is :

6am 1 pouch + Insulin
Midday - half pouch
6pm 1 Pouch + insuling
9/10pm - half pouch

Sound reasonable?

 

Sounds reasonable to me.

When you have a moment, could you add a few tidbits to your signature? It will help us give you feedback without having to go look in all your past posts.

Editing your Signature

In the upper right corner of the screen, within the dark blue bar, you will see ID, Inbox, and Alerts

Click on your ID.

On the left, under Settings, Click on Signature.
This is where you will put information that helps us give you feedback.
This is where you paste the link for your spreadsheet, once it is set up.
Add any other text, such as
your name,
your country (resources vary by country)
cat's name,
date of Dx (diagnosis)
insulin
meter
any other pertinent issues like if there are any food issues, history of DKA, hepatic lipidosis, pancreatitis, allergies, IBD, etc.
Click the Save Changes button at the bottom.

Always click the Save Changes button at the bottom when you have changed anything.

 

thanks should be updated now i hope

 

Yup. Nicely done. Thanks. The UK should help people recognize they have to think outside the US box of options!

 

Today although he quickly played when got home went stroke him upstairs and he swipped at me with claws. Tried to stroke again and he went for me . Nothing vicious but so out of character, he looks so unwell . Going vets in half hour, i do wonder if i am being cruel keeping him going... so hard whats best for him, along with his ashma and allergies

 

(((Steve))),
He may just be having an 'off' day. And it's likely he'll feel a lot better once his blood glucose gets under better control.

Do let us know how you get on at the vets.

Reassuring (((hug))) to you.

Eliz

 

Hi, I hope the vet has some positive and constructive advice. It's so gut wrenching and heart breaking seeing our pets out of character. I can wholly empathise with you at the moment.
Update us on how the vet goes, I hope all goes well.

 

I hope the vet visit helps. It's difficult when they're having a bad day and don't seem like themselves but, like Elizabeth, I'm sure he will feel better once his levels are more under control. Please keep us updated when you have a chance.

 

His diabetes level was 20 that was 12 hours after and actually a good reading compared as his starting point was 17. However his asmha is now very bad and he heavy breathing and sounds weasy to breath all time. He was having steriods for this but had to stop because diabetes. She took bloods to test for pancreatitis and i am waiting for the result hopefully tonight / tomorrow morning.

Even if all clear on that front i need to start using atopica (not sure if spelling correct) to help ashma . This is a squirt into mouth job and taste bitter. Having tried something simialr it really really stressed him out and me. He foams at mouth and runs wild. I really really cant do that to him or myself . Its a case of how to move forward as its not just diabtes. if it was i would be quite happy. Yet again another trip to vets, shaven, bloods, stress. i really dont think its fair and i think it could be PTS im so upset he my baby!

 

I'm sorry the vet visit didn't go better Steve.

However, I would like to add that if his asthma is so bad that he needs steroids, then he needs steroids regardless of the diabetes. Yes, taking steroids means he may need more insulin than without them and I would think it's less likely that he'll be able to achieve diabetic remission, but remission is pointless if you have a cat who can't breathe...that can kill him where needing insulin for life can be managed. While we would say that steroids are avoided where possible, when they're needed there's nothing you can do but give them and cope with any changes to his insulin requirement. If his asthma was controlled with the steroids and now it isn't and can't be, then he needs to go back on them.

 

That is a good point i will mention to vet when she calls. If he has pancreitus i think that will force my decision i cant put him thru anymore no matter how much it hurts me to do so. Its just got to a point where how to know when he has suffered enough with all the visits to vets, tests, treatment etc. Its more than just diabetes for him. Its so difficult

and also if he suffer more with insulin doeses up and down as he had a hypo on just 1 unit when we started .

 

Results back he doesnt have Pancreitus ! would u beleive it my phone went to voicemail even thou was fine. Didnt get to speak to vet, will wait to morning. Thats good newss, but its his asthma the problem still..........

 

That's great news - pancreatitis is definitely controllable and, unless a cat has the chronic form, curable. But you can do without anything new to deal with. I still think he needs to go back on the steroids for his asthma so he can breathe. If he's struggling to breathe, the stress of that might be raising his BG too - sometimes with cats with multiple conditions it comes down to a bit of a trade-off to deal with each condition the best you can while minimizing the effect on other conditions. I know it's difficult, but please try to stay strong for Winston - all these things are manageable...it's just a case of finding the best way of managing everything for him.

 

See Fritz the Brave
Our thoughts are to treat with steroids if you have to do so, then adjust the insulin to handle the increased glucose from the steroid.

 

Thanks i will speak to vet about this.. I think steroids is the solution for us. Just to mention before he was having what i would call Asthma attacks coughing badly and unable catch breath, now at moment he is just breathing heavy, noisy. rather than an attack.

Perhaps he could be getting worse due to food change or just the previous steriod is now wearing off as we had to stop due to diabetes. Difficult situation if im being honest what is best for him and if enough is enough putting him thru so much , visits to vets, stress etc.

So hard this morning he rushed down stairs to eat food, had injection tired to play and rolled around and then after laying upstairs heavy breathing and seems to struggle to breath. Heartbreaking what to do and best for him..

 

That does sound like fairly classic asthma symptoms. I'd imagine the steroid he was on would have taken some time to wear off completely so his symptoms are likely to have got worse as the steroid has got out of his system completely. I really hope your vet will agree to put him back on the steroids - it does sound as though he needs them.

 

At Fritz the Brave, they discuss the use of the AeroKat, a mask device which allows you to treat the asthma with an inhaled, rather than ingested, steroid. This is how human asthmatics (hi there) manage their asthma routinely.

 

So the bozita arrived and he did not like the canned, tried the tetra pack had some then was tapping the wall as in “disgust”. He then woofed down the sheeba.


Can anyone tell me if the Sheeba would be any problems feeding him this in terms of his allergies? OR if I should try Felix as alternative or any others I can purchase in UK?

I want to make sure the sheeba wont be causing his asthma getting worse? Gutted he doesn’t like bozita L he is a funny cat.

 

Hi Steve,

My old eyes are struggling to read the document.
Is it the case that the foods Winston is allergic to are rice, brewer's yeast, tomato and duck?
.

 

Good eyes, correct.

Rice,
Brewers Yeast
Duck
Tomatao

 

Todays curve at vets was better than before

8am 35
8am insulin
9am 24
10am 15.3
11 am 9.8

** During 12-1 vet said the vet has quite few cats and he gets stressed so why its jumped up **

12 pm 18.7
1pm 20,7
2pm 15.7
3pm 16
4pm 22.6
5.30 18

ALTHOUGH high its his best readings yet!


Another question :

is Sheeba Fine Flakes Poultry a good food choice ? and is the FIsh Flakes also ok ? He seems to love it just wanted to make sure this is ok.

Secondly - I tried him on Canned Bozita, but did not like. The Tetra Bozita he did eat some but then almost burped / gaged but thats probably as its bigger pieces and not used to it. Out of the 2 Sheeba / Bozita Tetra pack which would you recommened ?

I could try and enforce Bozita but currently he loves Sheeba.


As for winston now home happy again , we have upped his dose of Ventilin (opens up airways) to 1 unit x3 a day and they ordered in atopica for me to try in liquid format which i will collect later. Fingers crossed he / i manage it. VET is pleased with his latest curve, its heading in the right direction and now says continue how i am feeding in terms of sheeba with some biscuits (which i have been doing). Normally 1 sachet sheeba and mixed in a small handful of royal canin, although i may now cut that out and give him more sheeba, was just conerned as its a lot of jelly and not a lot of meat. / chunks.

 

Sheba Fine Flakes poultry comes out at just 1.6% calories from carbs. (See UK food list in my signature).
For some reason the fish version isn't on the list. That's probably just an omission on my part. I'll look at that shortly.

Edited to add. It just occurred to me that the poultry version may contain duck (one of Winston's allergens); and I just looked at the product online and one of the flavours in the multipack IS duck....

 

Thank you kindly, yes i have actually removed the duck pouches. Its quite annoying as wasting money but he eats the stuff so thats the main thing...

To another point perhaps this is true on another forum i have had a grilling over his reading and perhaps i should be more concerned than i feel at moment as his latest curve is best yet but still high.. Can you case your view also???

This was a response :

will be blunt again and warn you that I feel time is running out for Winston if you do not act really very quickly and get his blood sugars DOWN.
Caninsulin is good in one way in that it is fast acting and can be helpful to 'fire fight' these high BGs and many people find that the durations ( time between shots) do quickly stretch out so that the schedule is not 6 hourly shots for long. There is NO insulin that lasts a precise and magical 12 hours, it just does not work like that.
If this were my beloved cat I would be taking some immediate holiday from work and getting to grips with the situation.
To be blunt once more.....I have said my piece and given you what I honestly believe is the answer to this situation which is to get over to DCC and follow exactly what they tell you to do. I am afraid I don't have either the time or the emotional resilience to keep on posting the same advice over and over....you don't need to re-invent the wheel, it has been done for you, just follow the plan.

 

Good grief! I think I'd have to remove myself from that forum. Firstly, you're doing all you can for your beloved cat, that's glaringly clear for all to see. You're dedicated to every aspect of Winston's well being. Secondly, I'd be encouraged by that curve - you're making proper progress, which is great. These things take time and you're headed in the right direction. I've followed your story and it's looking really positive for you!
Please don't be discouraged, you and Winston are doing fantastically well. Please feel encouraged and positive as to how you're doing!

 

Thank you. I did call the vet as I was really worried about that comment. I do understand the concern of high readings. Just to put into perspective :


His First reading / CURVE was


Week 1


Insulin / Food 6am on Hills C/D and Dry Royal Caning


6.30 food / insulin

8am – 17.2

9am – 37

10 am 38.4

11 34.3

12 28.3

1pm 29.5

2pm 28.3

3pm 34.4


I did Ignore vet advice on Food and he is on Sheba Fine Flakes and results show below good in comparison.


Week 2


Yesterday results were :


The vet didn’t want me to shoot insulin before he was dropped off to VET so he went about 14 hours since last injection hence reading 37!


6.30 Food

8am 37 +

8am Insulin

9am 24

10 am 15.3

11 am 9.8

** VET said between 12/1 lots of cats in vets and he gets stressed with all others around him in cage hence spike **

12 18.7

1pm 20.7

2pm 15.8

3pm 16.6

4pm 22.6

5pm 18


Now I told vet I been using sheba to encourage dry food eating (but really I am just giving him the wet) and she did say whatever your doing is working so keep that up.


After reading the other forum and response I called my VET again to say look should I take time off work to home test (which I now have kit) but more so to do the tight protocol of if the curve starts to go up SHOOT insulin. She said NO 100% not. Basically he has dived from 37+ all the way down to 9.8. If we shoot at 20 he will go into a hypo. This I can understand. She said let him settle on food and insulin and 10 days’ time we re-do a curve and hopefully see another really good improvement. Take into account he is still flushing out his last steroid injection. I feel more comfortable now for sure.


I will try to get to grips and home test to monitor but will stick to the 2 feeds, and also sheba only. My last point I have checked the food list but as the “Poultry” fine flakes of sheba have poultry and duck which he could be allergic to I am wasting a lot of money on pouches he cant eat as I cant seem to find the “Fine Flakes” in separate pouches.


Can anyone verify if this is any good?


I think it maybe higher than the 2% so relucdant to change his food but at same time I am wasting lots of money. Bozita canned he turned his nose up and the tetra pack he was pouring the window in disgust although eat more. I want to stick sheba chicken ideally only wish I could buy the chicken in bulk


http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/?id=286766617 Sheba Tray Pieces Jelly With Chicken 85G

I noticed tesco finest chicken in jelly . He loves jelly ones not the pate. I just dont want to increase his CARB intake that is greater than sheba for the time being so if anyone can confirm what would be cost effective (if any links to buy the chicken / turkey sheba individually ) or alternative with Jelly which has the same carbs as sheba you would be a god

** and also taking into considerations his allergies as posted previously **

Thank you Cat friends

 

Hi Steve,

Many cat foods list 'meat and animal derivatives' (or similar) in the ingredients list without specifying what those meats actually are (and I'm guessing it varies depending on what's available). So, if you really want to avoid duck, it may be necessary to buy foods that have more specific labelling.

The Tesco finest chicken in jelly lists only 'chicken', so that may well be a possibility.
Other foods you could consider are the Nature's Menu pouches (avoid the beef one and the 'senior' pouches - too high carb), as their labelling seems pretty good. (These are popular foods with UK FDMB folks).

Or you could, for example, try things like Ropocat (chicken, lamb, rabbit or venison); or Mac's 'mono sensitive' (turkey or lamb); or Granatapet 'symphonie' (excluding the 'poultry' flavours. This last one is a very pricey food....); all of which are from the Happy Kitty Company.

Edited to add: I know how frustrating it is to buy food and then find that the kitty turns his nose up at it. But I'm sure your local cat shelter would appreciate anything that Winston doesn't want. 'Kitten season' is in full swing....
.

 

Gosh. OK....
DCC use a protocol created by Dr Elizabeth Hodgkins. It certainly does have it's followers (and I tried the protocol with my own cat shortly after he was diagnosed.)
However, followers of the protocol believe that it is not possible for a cat on a low carb diet to suffer adversely from hypoglycemia: It's not true.

Of course, it would be good to see Winston in better numbers.
Has your glucose meter arrived yet? It would be great if we can get you started on hometesting. Then we will really be able to see what's going on with him...
.

 

thank you very much again for your advice / support. Yes it arrived yesterday. As he was in vets all day on a glucose curve and first day back now was going to give him a day to get back into our routine, and tomorrow brave and test. Perhaps i am putting it off, which i guess i am but tomorrow i will 100% test.

 

This is going to sound odd, but as afraid/concerned as I was about doing the home testing, I couldn't wait to try it! I know that is probably odd, but I wanted so badly to know what was going on with my cat. I had watched alot of the videos and read so much about it. I had a meter at home that my mom used when she was here, but the battery was dead, so I had to wait. But as soon as I was home from the store with Shiloh's meter, I was right on her!

 

i know where your coming from i like injecting winston insulin now as i know it helps him. The problem i have is he is a very wild cat and not a "sit on lap" type cat, he knows when something is coming. I will work out a good way of trying to test like i do with his injections as with anything once u done it a few times it becomes easy and i guess u will always have that peace of mind knowing his levels

 

Steve, my Bertie isn't a lap cat either. But I found that if I crumbled a few treats for him I could do the test while he was suitably distracted.
It can help to acclimatize the kitty to the idea of testing by simply holding or massaging an ear for a couple of seconds and then giving a treat. And then maybe clicking the lancet pen near the ear, and giving a treat; etc, etc....
And you'll probably find testing easier if you can get him to jump up onto a desk or table top.

 

Ok just went for it and failed..... the vets been testing on his paws as he tollerates it better as very sensitive to his ears always has been. Alpha track was setup for me ready on number 4.

Anyways had 3 "shots" at his paw pad (middle bit of pour) and nothing, he waggling tail like "go away". final attempt it got him im sure as he pulled leg away like "what was that!". But no blood. i did try to pinch a bit but nothing and then he done a runner.

Rather than stress him out ill try tomorrow. Any tips? setting 4 is deepest so should be ok? Maybe ill go for ear its just i want to be consistent to testing done so far on his paw pads.

 

Well done for having a go, Steve!
It doesn't matter that you didn't get blood this time. It can take a few goes to get the hang of it so do be patient with yourself.

Regarding ear testing, the most useful things I've found are:
1. Warm ears bleed much more easily. Massaging the ear for a few seconds can help the blood flow.
2. It helps to hold something against the inside of the ear, opposite to where you're pricking. The lancet needs something to 'resist'. This can be a little piece of cotton wool or folded tissue, or even your own finger tip (but you may occasionally get blood from yourself this way.... )
(The most common mistake I make is not putting pressure on the inside of the ear. If I ever can't get blood this is the most likely cause. And this does happen when I'm tired and not concentrating..... )
3. A teensy smear of vaseline on the outer edge of the ear can help the blood to 'bead up' rather than disappear into the fur.
4. Two ear pricks close together can often produce enough blood for a test where one ear prick might not.
5. Massaging immediately below the ear prick can 'milk' more blood out. I almost always do this unless it's obvious that the ear is bleeding just fine on it's own.
6. It's important to reward the kitty every time you try a test (whether the test is successful or not). And in between time, you can massage his ears for a second or two and give him a treat and/or a cuddle. It'll help him to learn that tests are a good thing.

The ears bleed more easily over time. They grow more blood vessels which is extremely helpful! And it doesn't take long for this to happen.

I don't have experience of paw testing, but I'm going to tag April for you @manxcat419 to see if she has any tips. I think she alternates between ear and paw testing.

Eliz

 

great tips thank you kindly. Ears maybe actually easier for me as i can lay him on window ledge and test there. I will get there i am sure, just like the insulin it took me a week before i found the best method for me and winston.

I think going from the seemed successful prick of the pad (at least by his reaction) was to be quite firm when pushing down on the needle pen and then hit the button.

I will try ears i just know he is very sensitive. Does anyone know best setting for ears? I would guess setting 2 ?

 

You could try that, and then increase the depth setting if that doesn't work. (However....it may also be that the deepest setting could increase your chance of getting blood...? And that would be enouraging for you.....) And yes, you do need to hold the lancet pen thingy quite firmly against the ear.

FYI, Just found some Alphatrak testing info online. There's a page of info and tips, and also a little video that shows someone testing a cat's ear using the same device that you have.
http://www.alphatrakmeter.co.uk/why-alphatrak/how-to-use-alphatrak.html
http://www.alphatrakmeter.co.uk/videospage/blood-test.html

And here's the link to the FDMB compilation of hometesting info, tips and tricks, and example videos:
Hometesting Links and Tips
.

 

thanks for links have read it all and im still failing Tried 4 times on the ear and he was getting worked up so left him be. Its just not pricking, not sure if its a problem with unit or probably just me to be honest. I will pop vets get them to check and help me.

Also i have noticed soon after i inject winston insulin he seems to get really grumpy like 20 mins later and then last few days went to swipe me with his claw which he never does. Reading up could be a mod hypo? His lowest before other day was 9... I really wanted to test him gave him a small amount of royal canin bisciuts just incase (i know no dry but just a small handful to boost him up just incase. Seems fine now although he always grumpy as stuck indoors.

Frustrating me now as i want to get some tests done!

 

Try freehanding with the lancet and aiming directly for the edge vein on a warmed ear. Be prepared to test quickly, because if you nail it, you may get a gusher.
If so, get the test, then blot firmly to reduce bruising and scabbing. Some folks snag the blood drop on a clean fingernail and test from there.

 

We're not home this weekend so I only just noticed I'd been tagged - sorry for taking all day to get back to you!

What I've found with paw pad testing is that it seems to work best if I use the alternate site lancet pen cap as well as the alternate site lancets. I also try to poke just off center on the paw pad - the very center seems to have harder skin so is more difficult to get enough blood from. Often putting 2 pokes next to each other helps too. And of course milking the paw pad a bit if you've not got quite enough blood.

And I agree that you do have to be quite firm with the lancet device to get a successful test from the paw pad. Keeping the lancet device in place for a few seconds while still applying pressure after you activate the device can help a decent blood drop well up around the lancet too.

I hope some or all of that helps a little.

 

FINALLY! Success!!! .

Went for his ear before his 6pm shoot. took me 3 attempts, moved the Level to 3 on alphatrak and got a small amount of blood! It read 23.3 which is at his worst as 12 hours apart. Just shot his insulin will try and do tests every hour.
** As i said before even 5 mins of his injection he gets grumpy and aggresive, i stroke him and he yowls at me as in leave me alone, if i stroke again he swipes at me. Out of character. Is that normal behaviour when his levels drop or is it because too low?? Literally 5 mins after shooting.

I was worried because vets he was 35+ and dropped to 9... Now he is 23.3 i hope he doesnt drop the same amount. I will try test 1 hour if he allows me to.. Happy i finally done it thou thanks for help! Now its a case of getting him out of under bed in hour and onto window ledge for me to test again!

 

also further good news , I told vet i wanted to try
Enisyl Enisyl-F Paste as he had that in past for eye problem, and to me his asthma seems more infection than anything else. Could be coincidence that we have limited windows open, changed litter to dust free but since the paste his breathing is 70% better than before. I have also bought a humidifier for his bedroom (Not arrived yet) http://www.athleteshop.co.uk/beurer-lw-110-air-washer-white.

He wont take atopica in food as dont like taste and not injecting to mouth as will stress him out. Fingers crossed asthma and diabetes may soon be at a manageable state!

 

6pm 23.3
8pm 21.7

I would have thought it should drop quicker than that? at least it has on other results. i hope i done his insulin correct will test again in 2hours. (again took me 3 attempts)

 

Steve, well done! I knew you could do it.

You may see the lowest number of the cycle somewhere around 4.5 to 5 hours after the shot (or it may be a bit earlier or later, depending on the cat).

Don't worry if Winston doesn't drop too much during this particular insulin cycle. This is just one day. And the way cats respond to insulin will be a bit different every single day. Some days will be higher than others.

Are you rewarding Winston with treats?
And maybe you should give yourself a nice treat too!

Eliz

 

Thank you . I pulled up bed and he jumped on window ledge gave him few treats . Had few goe s at ear and then a treat ... Hopefully 10pm test shows better number and I'm doing his ears just quick rub and being confident with him holding some issue other side ear and quickly grabbing the monitor to get sample .. I did give him some biscuits because I was concerned if he dropped mid 30 to 9 in vets his 20 reading prior insulin maybe too much a jump . Perhaps why not gone down much yet . Time will tell . Thanks again for all help. Yes having a beer to celebrate lol

 

really annoyed went to do it again 30 mins ago and he really annoyed and taking swipes at me. tried few times but wasnt worth loosing me eye. Tried again just now and same again, soon as touch ear he goes mad. He has always been senstive to ears. With his pads, its difficult for me to get to unless laying down in a certain posistion. Winston not a lap cat, so really hard and by then he knows what is coming and even then i didnt have any blood before. Really want this test as its 4 hours then... May give him a little time and do a final attempt before packing up for the night. Dont want him too stressed around me as we have a good routine for insulin / feeding.

 

Can you try putting down a little food, and as he is eating, try it again? I give Shiloh her shots while she is eating and she doesn't even notice.

 

problem is i am sticking to a strict 2 day feed, but i know what u mean. i am a bit nervous doing it to be honest especially as he likes to swipe at me which is out of character.

I have tried giving him a few treats then trying but now soon as touch ear he goes mental. Perhaps just need to take my time not over stress him. Ill keep trying but im giving in tonight, and try again tomorrow. Maybe i have bruised his ear a little and sore.

 

persistance paid off . few hours late but reading now were

Pre insulin

23.3
+2 hours = 21.7
+ 6 hours = 19.4
+11 hours 23.8 **updated just woke up and got a test done *

Day 2

5am 23.8
8am / +3 19.3

Will test again in 2-3 I think he needs more insulin ?? Will talk vet

Not happy with that at least before in vets he dropped to 9 after 3 hours.... Maybe because i fed him a few biscuits or maybe insulin not enougth?

 

Updated some readings

 

Morning Steve,

Wow, look at all those test results! Well done, you!

Yes, it may be that Winston needs more insulin.
But am I right in thinking that he has actually dropped lower on this same dose (at the vets..?) ? If so, it might be worth waiting a while to see if that happens again. (Sometimes a cat's blood glucose will drop lower than they're comfortable with and then swing up high and 'flat' (unchanging) in response to that.)

What "biscuits" did you give him, and how many?

Eliz

 

Yes he dropped from 35 to 9 in vets few days back . Yesterday I gave him some royal canon biscuits probably about 10-15 biscuits . With his wet Sheba . Was worried with 20 reading he would hypo if dropped like vet that was at 6am .yesterday . Today he has only had pouch and half Sheba fine flakes nothing else . Hopefully in few hours number drop its just he loosing lot weight . Using setting 4 and he still grumpy but I guess I'm trying be more confident now thank you

 

just done another test so today wet food only pouch & half sheba

Day 2 Testing

07/06/2015

Prior Insulin >> 23.8
5am / Insulin >>23.8
8am +3 >>19.3
10.00am + 5 >> 19.1
2pm + 9 >> 16.2

will be calling vets on monday as am i right in thinking unless under 15 he cant process food? he keeps dropping his weight .

** updated afternoon results, looks like dropping still which good slowly. **

 

Using insulin results in lower blood glucose levels because the glucose has entered the cells and can fuel them.
Normal glucose levels for a cat are 40-120 mg/dL on a human meter. Divide by 18 to get mmol/L.
We like our diabetics to go no lower than 50 mg/dL (2.7 mmol/L) to give us a bit of safety.

 

On that basis his insulin needs to be upped?? I will speak to vet.

Prior Insulin >> 23.8
5am / Insulin >>23.8
8am +3 >>19.3
10.00am + 5 >> 19.1
2pm + 9 >> 16.2
4pm + 11 >> 23.3

Finished his last test for today his ears look battered bless him.... 1 more hour until feed / insulin time

 

We tend to focus on getting the numbers closer to normal than some vets do as it gives the pancreas a chance to recover function.
Your vet may have different target numbers he would prefer.
Just getting the numbers below the renal threshold, where glucose spills out through the urine, is helpful in reducing possible renal damage.
See my signature link Glucometer Notes for some feline reference ranges with different meter types and possible interpretations.

 

feeling a bit low, his asthma really bad today struggling to breath laying next to me I have ordered a humdifier but, with him not taking atopica and me unable to force it down his throat, only option is aerokat and again not harm for me to try but if that dont work its not looking great .

Hopefully me and him having a bad day, just pains me to see him struggling to breath and tbh i am so stressed its affecting me also along with minimal sleep. I can cope with insulin but the asthma is a big burden

 

Can you smush one up and put it into a syringe to give?

 

You could ask for the Atopica solution? Would be much easier for you both.

 

I have the atopica liquid but he foams at mouth and goes wild . Stressful before work ...

Sheba fine flakes ... Does this alone have everything he needs food wise I know low carb but he has lost so much weight ? Skin n bones almost although I'm sure need insulin adjustment ... Just wondering if should stick with or force him to eat bozita?? Calling vet soon. As they open.

I am feeding him pouch n half twice a day with insulin 12 hours apart ...

 

Hi Steve,

The Sheba is a complete food. The fish version has a higher protein and fat content (and less moisture) than the poultry version.
The Bozita is broadly similar in protein and fat content to the Sheba.

Am I right in thinking that you're only feeding Winston twice a day? (Sorry if I got that wrong). If so, then he may simply need more food throughout the day. Diabetics in high blood glucose numbers often lose weight because they can't properly utilise the food they are eating. So they may need more food initially because of that.

Would Winston eat pate type foods? The Gourmet Gold pates are quite high in protein and fat (and are available from supermarkets).
As with any food that contains unspecified 'meat and animal derivatives' though there is the slight possibility that it might contain duck... I just emailed the manufacturer to ask about that, but it may take a while to get an answer...

Re the asthma meds, I'll tag Sarah @phlika29 to see if she has any advice. She's in the UK and also has an asthmatic diabetic kitty.

Chin up, Steve. You're doing just fine.

Eliz

 

Thank for so much really appreciate all your help kind.

Yes only feeding twice a day. That is on vets instructions, was told feeding him more would raise his glucose level and then if it goes higher he certainly wont put on weight. Actually need him to eat twice a day to gain weight... Right or wrong i have seen advice so much about multiple feeds and others twice daily.

Pate are not his favourite at all, i am sure if really hungry he would eat, he loves Jelly, gravy type foods.

Just hard to see him suffering loosing the weight , but more concerned with asthma although we do need him to gain weight as soon it will be death by hunger!!

I have seen on some sites online they said for cat loosing weight to leave food out all the time. I wouldnt do this but maybe feed him 3/4 times a day!. Anyone had the same thing of diabetic cat loosing too much weight and what you did?