Shots and charts oh my

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Lois and Java, Feb 8, 2017.

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  1. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oh crumb, I'm editing and we're overlapping. I'm going to sit tight and let you read my edits.
     
  2. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Even if he didn't eat enough this AM, that's an awfully big drop. Lack of food might be a factor though.
     
  3. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Still here - going to make chili for dinner. Will check in.
     
  4. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    He's getting up and he's grazing on YA on his own, but the FF is from me bringing him to food, or food to him.
    I already did a little honey, and he licked the bottom jelly from FF. He's just on his pillow again. Will change photo to right now.
     
  5. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Dinner?! Vive le difference! (la?)

    I'm waiting for an answer to the vet about the Henry Schein strips, so I'm going to call check on that and ask them what I should expect from the ringer solution and the lab tests results.
     
  6. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    La différence. Dinner, supper, all the same. :)
    Any more BG numbers?
     
  7. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    94. He wants to go outside. I let him go out, went out with him. He just kind of wants to stand and stare, it's misty-raining, so I brought him back in. He's thirsty, he ate a little of a fresh batch of watered down FF. And now is off to his pillow again.

    I'm reading about the PSL test. http://precisionpsl.com/faq.html

    Cornell. http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/Health_Information/pancreatitis_serious.cfm

    The progression of feline pancreatitis can take various paths. Says Dr. Goldstein: “Your cat can have a perfectly normal pancreas but then develop—for no apparent reason—a sudden, very acute, and very severe case of the disease. And the cat may die as a result of that single acute attack. Or it may recover and never experience a problem with its pancreas again. But what often happens is that a cat will recover from the initial acute attack and then develop chronic pancreatitis. The animal will tend to have intermittent little bouts of the disease over time. With each occurrence, there will be less inflammation, but there will be gradual scarring of the pancreatic tissue, which could eventually take its toll on the organ’s ability to function.”

    Diagnosis and Treatment
    The clinical signs associated with feline pancreatitis, says Dr. Goldstein, are quite nonspecific: inappetence and lethargy, for example. The standard diagnostic procedure will involve a medical history of the animal, a thorough physical examination, bloodwork and ultrasound. Radiography tends to be of little value, he notes, since pancreatic abnormalities—indeed, the organ itself—are not readily perceptible on x-rays. They are sometimes useful, however, in ruling out other disorders, such as an intestinal obstruction, which can have symptoms resembling those of pancreatitis. The only way a definitive diagnosis can be made is through a biopsy, he notes, but this involves a surgical or laproscopic procedure that may not be advisable for a seriously ailing, physically debilitated animal.
    ....
    Although no uniformly effective cure for feline pancreatitis has yet been developed, an affected cat will typically be hospitalized for several days while supportive treatment proceeds. This treatment will entail feeding the patient—through a tube leading directly into its stomach, if necessary—to make sure that it is getting adequate nutrition. This must continue until the animal’s spirits pick up and it resumes its normal eating habits.

    Edit. The vet's with someone, will call me back. I can do syringes of food in side of mouth.

    Java's essentially a hospice patient because of his age. I want to do as much as I can, without being so intrusive, I make him miserable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  8. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    His BG seems OK for now.
     
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  9. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Okay, thanks.
    >> Java's essentially a hospice patient because of his age. I want to do as much as I can, without being so intrusive, I make him miserable.
    Because he's old and cats sleep all the time anyway, it makes it hard to know what's going on. This photo? Pretty typical. It doesn't look like the meatloaf-pain hunch, right?
     
  10. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'm reading another thread that had the searchable word "pancreatitis" in it.
    What do you think about this hyper-hypo combo? meaning, selfishly, am I doing the right things for Java? (I'm sorry about Milo.)

    >> Rapid drops leading to hypoglycemia combined with the rebound hyperglycemia can sometimes be very detrimental to the brain. My sweet baby boy, Milo, did not recover from his hypoglycemic episode even though I acted quickly as instructed by my vet. The problem is, the initial signs of a HYPO episode can be overlooked by the untrained eye and hypoglycemia needs to be treated as quickly as it begins for the best outcome. In all my reading and learning about feline diabetes one fact stood out more than anything else I read and that was the fact that not only rapid drops leading to HYPOglycemia, but the rebound HYPERglycemia also can be very damaging to the brain; it's a double edged sword affecting the ability to perform basic bodily functions.
     
  11. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Checklist for QOL, factoring in age of cat:
    • eats, pees, poops
    • moves around
    • shows interest in his surroundings
    • no obvious signs of distress.
    Yes, he's a very senior cat, Lois. Even younger ones sleep away much of the day. He can sense your anxiety so try to stay calm.
     
  12. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I went out to a movie, Oscar time. Came back and Java woke, was looking longingly outside, so I took him out. He's got a bodyguard wherever he goes, but it makes him so happy to be outside drinking rain water. His tail is super thick, the bone is twice as thick as a normal cat's tail. He thrashes it back and forth when he's happy. He was happy!
    Thanks for that, qol list.
    What the vet said is, it would take a month for the values to change for Java on the PSL test. Stick to twice-a-week Sub-Q, a teaspoon of food here a teaspoon of food there, adds up and is okay.
    We compared prices of test strips. He doesn't get any kind of a break apparently on alphatrak. The Henry Schein rep gave him a vial of 25 test strips that he's going to give me for free.
    About to setup and then test.
    418 - PMPS
    He ate some FF from his pillow.
    I need to shoot.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2017
  13. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Regular 1U.
    Will test +3 and +5, if not too low at 5, let run to AM.
    Edits
    2-3 Tbsp fresh cooked salmon eaten after shot.
    +2.5, 251.
    Ate another Tbsp fresh salmon around 1.5.
    +5, 214. Peed. Wished he could go outside to drink the good water.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  14. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's interesting that the dose reduction to a regular 1 u gave you yellows last night while the fat 1 u resulted in low greens. You asked yesterday whether lack of food around AM shot caused BG to be lower. That could well be the big factor along with the slightly higher dose. I'd try a regular 1 u again today. Data collection ...
     
  15. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Hey I'm up, 5 am. Woke up and Java wasn't in his usual spot on pillow. Found him in closet hunched over - he has a folded towel in there that he sometimes sleeps on, lying down.. Am feeding him as much salmon as he'll eat ... A tiny bit. He just went back into the closet. He's just sitting there.
    Test blood?
     
  16. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    https://www.petpremium.com/pet-health-center/diseases-and-allergies/pancreatitis/

    He's lying down normally now. It could be pancreatitis. He might have been getting away from Lily, who sometime lies on k top of him. I'm going to test, since I'm up, and see if I can get him to eat any FF slurry, since if it is P., getting food into him is key.
    Eta: tried a little water in salmon, not FF. No. Heard a bird. 6 am already. He wants to go outside now. I have to get more sleep. FF up. Leave salmon down?
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  17. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Someone did this this morning, see photo.
    He goes to the uphill property behind me and walks along the odd privacy screen to fencetop, steps over onto shed roof.
    Amps, 460. 1U.
    118 - +5.5
    He's eaten some chicken, salmon, YA.
    The higher the dose, the lower the low?
    125 ml Ringers subq at +8, ate more food.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  18. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    PMPS 322. Scant 1 U.
    45 mins to find something he'd eat and get some eaten. Scant 1, because his bg lower than other PMPS, 1 not .75 because, stay on the track.

    His hind legs are really weak. He splatted jumping from bed to floor directly instead of via step- box. He gets B12 shot on Monday.
    He's weaker despite roof of shed in am. I think he is better in morning and worse at night.
    3 am +5 221, peed normally, ate. Yay!
    Time creep today am and pm. Move up 30 min tomorrow am.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  19. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Maybe try the regular 1 u today? Re B12: I think some people here have found the oral version (methylcobalamin?) more effective for neuropathy (@Marje and Gracie ) than the injection.

    Many elderly humans are worse at night. Maybe similar with elderly kitties.
     
  20. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Something liquid would be better. Since his appetite is diminished and picky, FF with powder B is often rejected.
    So much time creep yesterday, I'm going out with him this morning. AM test in about an hour, try to get back to normal schedule.
    Thanks for being there Kris.
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2017
  21. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    AMPS, 359, 1 Unit
    Could not have been an easier morning!
    He went out and drank and drank rainwater, and came right back in.
    He lapped down three small bowls of Fancy Feast slurry. (I see thirst)
    I'm back on a nearly normal time schedule.
    Awesome!
     
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  22. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Looks like a bit of bouncing yesterday. Maybe try 1 u today to see if he comes down and consider a fat 1 u tomorrow if you can monitor.
     
  23. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Yesterday looked like bouncing? And here I thought it looked really good! No black, no red. Yes, magenta, but then a nice couple of yellows, and then another magenta. But that's not a good "run" for a day?
    Another Q; I woke up to pee at 5 AM and debated whether to test him or let him sleep, and fell back asleep while pondering. How often should I test him if I'm not on notice to monitor him (like if I do a fat 1.0, then 3, 6, 9 is okay?).
    You're testing Teasel a lot lately. Is that because of the red and green values?
     
  24. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I'm testing Teasel a lot because I just switched insulin 2 weeks ago and I'm monitoring his progress on it.

    The reason I said there was bouncing yesterday is that with the same dose (1 u) that produced a blue the day before the BG didn't fall below yellow/pink. Re how often to test: on an uneventful day - AM/PM before feeding and injecting and one other test either mid day or before bed.

    I suggest you try a fat 1 u tomorrow. Monitor BG at +2 and +4 to see where he's heading.
     
  25. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Okay.
    Chagrin for my delay this morning. Suspect FF just before start of 2 hr food-up window before PMPS helped create the black.
     
  26. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    The high numbers last night are a bounce from the blue yesterday. Try a fat 1 u and get your first test at +2 to see where he's headed.
     
  27. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'm reminded of the book Flowers for Algernon. I feel like Charley in the slide away from intelligence. There is something about bouncing that I fundamentally fail to grasp, and I feel like I would have, another earlier smarter time.
     
  28. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Bouncing recap:

    How to identify:
    Whenever a dose has given you some lower numbers (eg. blue) mid cycle and then the same dose fails to do so next cycle (only yellow or pink and higher), that's evidence of bouncing. When a good mid cycle low skyrockets to an unexpectedly high number at the end of the cycle, that's evidence of bouncing. Bouncing is caused by a normal physiologic regulatory process aimed at keeping kitty's BG at safe levels but the process goes into overdrive and over compensates. This "computer glitch" is an idiosyncrasy of that particular kitty. Not all kitties do this but it's very common.

    What will trigger bouncing in kitties who are prone:
    1. a BG that falls too low
    2. a BG that falls to a lower level than has been the case recently but not necessarily too low
    3. a high rate of BG drop in a cycle - eg. dropping 100 points in the first hour or two.
    Does this help?
     
  29. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Yes!
    Straight 1 U, only slightly jumping ahead 30 mins.
    Edit, I'm at the end of AlphaTrak strips, more on the way, and will switch to Henry Schein. Tonight, I tried both at same time. AT read 450, HS read 210! Crazy. My thought is that since it wasn't a really fat juicy drop of blood, that the HS, which was #2, didn't get enough for a good read, even though it got A read. I have enough to compare again on another stick.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  30. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I've gotten behind on dosing time. I'd like to dose him at 10 or 11 hours instead of 12 to get back on track. How would adjust the dose; in this case, a regular 1 U instead of a fat 1 U?
     
  31. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    No need to adjust the dose. PZI is quite flexible in terms of moving dose times by up to one hour. I think the dose needs to come up a tiny bit.
     
  32. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Okay, back to fat 1 U.
    This morning, I did a dip with both alphatrak and the Henry Schein meters. It was a big fat juicy drop of blood.
    Alphatrak -523
    H Schein - 477
    At least they're in the same ballpark, but I'm surprised at the difference.
    I'll be using the Henry Schein for the next little while. Hmm, which one to enter now?
     
  33. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'm at the library. My printer died a long time ago so I come here to print stuff. I'm cut-copy-pasting all the key info from you into one doc so I can read it in print. Two goals - 1) go over it / see if I missed anything / work more on understanding bouncing, and the SS in general. 2) I'm hoping that I can talk my neighbor (with 6 cats. Humane Assoc. volunteer) to take care of Java so I can go away for two days when a friend from East Coast visits in a few weeks. Right now, I have to be here, there's no one else who can sub for me. She's worried that something bad will happen while I'm away and doesn't want to be part of that. I'm feeling more calm about him in general, and I also want to use some of your words, with your permission, to write up a To Do list for Sarah.
    Don't know if you heard about the huge fire in Calif. two years ago, The Valley Fire ... we have too many of those! My friend Mona lost her house in the fire, we want to go up and see it. She moved.
     
  34. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Feel free to use any of my words in the posts I've made on your threads, Lois. Yes, I did hear about that awful fire two years ago. I can't imagine how traumatic it is to lose your house. California has a lot of catastrophic "acts of nature"! One of my brothers has lived there a long time and the first disaster he witnessed while he was at Stanford was the huge earthquake in 1989.
     
  35. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Thanks! I wonder what other people do when they want to get away?
    I've been resting next to Java for 2.5 hrs, which, aside from running around doing errands, including walking a neighbor's dog for the second time today, is my feeble excuse for not testing him midday. On the Henry Schein meter at + 10, 255.
    He's having some YA right now, had a pee. Reassuring things.
    Oh yeah I was here for the Loma Prieta. I hope to never go through as big an earthquake as that again. Our office was not far away from the Cyprus Structure, the freeway that pancaked. I accidentally saved my boss's life by delaying him with some questions about a project when he was trying to get home for the baseball game. One of the Cypress slabs came down on cars right in front of him...He was able to drive away.
    Stanford's a good school! A friend of mine is getting treatment at the med center down there. I help her with rides to and from when I can. Her arm's been amputated, she needs more surgery again, sarcoma.
    I need to find out about that liquid vitamin B. I haven't tried Googling yet let me do that.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  36. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    +10, 255
    PMPS, 333
    This is with the Henry Schein meter.
    Because it's (reading) lower (than AT meter), I went with a straight 1U instead of a fat 1 (and I'll sleep better if I don't worry it might hg too low).
    I'll set it up to check him when I get up to pee in the middle of the night.
    (Eta,) 2 am, +5, 175, ate some FF, pee'd.
    Not finding liquid b super easy. I should be sleeping....
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017
  37. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Had I done a fat 1 last night, might AMPS be lower?
    Doing a fat 1 now.
     
  38. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Giving a fat 1 instead of 1 tonight.
     
  39. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I like those blues from the fat 1 u doses yesterday. I'd try it again and aim for a few +4 to +7 tests.
     
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  40. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Okay! I'm starting to see it, today's start of 440 is lower than yesterday's, we want to see if fat 1s at night will bring it down more.
    Hey, so I took the litter box outside to clean it, and Java came out to use it. I grabbed a detergent-rinsed smoked trout tin to collect some pee, and neg for ketones. Tin should have been clean enough, yeah?
     
  41. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Tin should be fine. Hurray for no ketones!
     
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  42. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Also 117 at 5.75. That's good. So the Q is, is that the nadir, or is the nadir later, or earlier. Right now is 6.75, test now?
    I'm asking because I don't wanna. 5 hours solid yard work, including small tree cutting...Tired! Java's asleep on the bed next to me and I might join him in the land of nod. On the other hand, info.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2017
  43. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I like that 117. Is it the nadir or not? The only way to tell is to do a full curve when you can spare the time. Tomorrow?
     
  44. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    217 at +7. Wow, that was fast.
    So is that a normal increase?

    Maybe Sunday. Oscars! I'll be glued to the TV. Or maybe tomorrow. I'm so beat now, more yardwork tomorrow seems doubtful.
     
  45. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It might be the start of a bounce from the 117. Don't fret. Just keep doing what you're doing and give another fat 1 u tonight.
     
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  46. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    335 at 2:30 am. +5. Why's it so high? Why isn't it around 117 like this am?
    I can't do a curve. I have to be sparse with strips. I was assured last Tuesday by a customer relations that strips were on order and being mailed out that day, arriving to me by Monday at latest. Then I got email Friday saying, your order was just mailed today. Sounds like Barbara forgot to put the order through...?! Grrr. I can get AT strips from the vet if I have to. but this weekend, soaring with strips.
     
  47. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    He could be bouncing from the 117 earlier in the day. He might have dropped lower than 117 but you don't have any data. That's why I'd suggested getting more numbers in the +4 to +7 range. However, if you're short of strips that might not have been possible.

    Many people on FDMB use a human meter for day to day testing. They read lower than the pet meters but the strips can be a lot cheaper and much more readily available. What if Java's numbers were too low and you didn't have enough strips to monitor? The Walmart ReliOn types are very popular and there are a couple that use only a tiny drop of blood. I suggest that you think about switching. You'll get used to the shift in number ranges for too high, OK and too low. People who have a pet meter as well save it for full BG curves, especially if they show the curve data to their vet.
     
  48. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Could there be something wrong with the meter? 359, 334, and 339 all in a row?
    Is that good, not a lot of up-and-down?
    Oh, we overlapped! Good morning!
    Edit, Marin doesn't have a Walmart, we're anti big box generally, except we do have a Target and Costco. I'm really bummed because I went through this scarcity of test strips before, and thought I had it taken care of. But I definitely see the advantage of having something that's in common use here, and I can run through strips without being so parsimonious.
    Oh wow, $18 for 100 test strips?! Okay! I'll bet there's a sticky here somewhere re meters.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  49. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    You could try another human pharmacy to get a human meter that takes a small blood drop and has relatively cheap test strips. Walmart in Canada doesn't sell ReliOn meters so we buy others. My backup (not in use right now) is a Freestyle Lite by Abbott. Its strips are cheaper than AT strips but still $$$.
     
  50. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I drove to my yoga class, parked my car, and then got back in it and drove to my vet. I figured it's easier to beg them for 10 to 15 individual accutrak strips than it is to drive to Sonoma to find a Walmart.

    And lo and behold they had ordered an extra 50 strip bottle of Henry Schein strips, so now I am set. I am inquiring what happened!? to the ADW people, because they told me in writing that they shipped my order, then didn't until 4 days later.

    I think I will also get a human meter. Better to collect information, not so rushed. I just can't get over the price of the Relion test strips, $18 for 100.

    The online Walmart menu said that the ReliOn meter is supplied by ADW. Which is interesting.

    It surprises me that there isn't a sticky on this site with more information about meters. There is a whole section on meters in the FAQs, but not one word about Relion! So maybe I can help compile info in one place so it can be updated.
     
  51. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think I've read on here that it's the ReliOn Prime model that has the cheap strips ($18 for 100). The down side is that it needs a larger blood drop and some people end up wasting strips trying to get a large enough drop to get a good reading. There's a model called the Micro and one other (name escapes me) that take tiny blood drops.
     
  52. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Yeah, tiny drops are definitely appreciated.

    I'm kind of not believing these results! 396 at 3:30 p.m. ... That's +7.5. Could a run of everything in the 300s be normal for a bounce kitty?

    I would have liked to get back here sooner, but time to the vet time, back from the vet, some hardware needs, and seeing my friend who's doing stuff at Stanford Medical -- she just had surgery #12 on her arm so I dropped in to take her soup and help her with a couple of things. Surgery #10 was an amputation below elbow.

    I've been serving a lot of Fancy Feast to Java. There was a run there where he was getting chicken and salmon, maybe I need to go back to that.
     
  53. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes, a run of high, flat numbers can certainly happen in a bouncy kitty. At least you don't have to worry about him being low while you're out.

    Your friend has been through a very difficult time. I can't imagine how hard her struggle is. All we can do is help. I lost two friends to cancer in 2014.
     
  54. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    407. He seems more droopy, I think. Poor bunny. Fat 1 again.
    It almost seems like the insulin isn't doing anything. I'm not sure what's worse, up and down, or elevated flat. Yes, don't have hypo as an immediate possibility.
    He's sleeping, eating, excreting, and was enthused about going outside for rain water, so, his normal stuff.
    I've heard from several people around here oh yes my cat/ my friend's cat had diabetes and the vet said give them x unit shot in the morning and evening, and the cat lived for another 10 or 15 years. With a bouncy cat, will I ever be able to do that kind of thing, assuming Java's health maintains?
     
  55. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Those cats were either very "simple" diabetics or just plain lucky. People who come here tend to have more complicated diabetics so it's rare that turns out to be "set and forget" on FDMB.
     
  56. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Set and forget, good phrase!
    +3, 162. Okay, that's more like it. I'll get up at 2 am / +6 to test.
    So if that ends up being the low, that creates the bounce?
    He drank more water than I've seen him drink before from shower-catch water bucket (usually a drought around here) while I was brushing teeth, then made a gurgling noise and barfed it all up. (TG on the bathroom floor and not on my bed.) Too much too soon? He made thirsty lip smacks. I went outside and got a few blades of grass, rejected (Lily ate). I went outside with him so he could drink from cold stream, kept him from double drinking. He peed, pooped when we came in, ate a little FF slurry, looks curled up comfortably on heating pad cushion. No idea what that was, seems okay now. Bucket is clean catch while water getting hot but maybe shampoo suds dripped in it, a first? He gets subq ringers again on Monday.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  57. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I was supposed to go to Ontario this summer with my friend Tess. Canceled because of Java. Tess got her Canada national park pass today. Big anniversary of parks this year for Canada.

    I'm hoping my sister can stay here in August so I can get up to Oregon for a bit. A few people responded to Nextdoor.com, neighbors who could shoot the insulin for Java for the one night I want to go away in a few weeks. No one has said they have experience testing BG. I wonder if I could go with flat 1U for one night time and one morning shot without testing? No one else is going to test him in the middle of the night, I might be able to have someone test him in the middle of the day.

    He's eating some YA now.
     
  58. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Not necessarily: he could bounce from that low or he could bounce from the rate of descent of BG.

    It's Canada's 150th anniversary this year so access to all national parks is free,
     
  59. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Stick with fat 1, I presume.
    Yes, the free parks was a draw. I did a circuit of WY, MT, and WA Natl parks last year. Yellowstone, Grand Tetons, Glacier, Olympic. Gone 2.5 months. Don't think I can do that this year.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  60. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I'm sorry about your friends.
    Java nearly fell on his face going down three little stairs, his hind legs not up to par. It makes me see him as so much more fragile. It's late, just took a sample again. I hope he doesn't see this as being tormented. It's the right thing to do, yeah? Re food, either I bring FF to him or put him in front of it. Lily is gaining weight eating the good food around house.
     
  61. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    My take on the last few days of numbers:
    • maybe bouncing from the blues
    • blues are nice but they're not too low
    • a dose increase is in order - 1.25 u - if you can monitor: get +3, +5, +7 at least.
     
  62. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    301 AMPS
    Okay, 1.25. with odd # nadir zone tests.
    I have to stop doing that, in the middle of the night, seeing Doom and Gloom. He's outside enjoying that overnight rain water and the Sun and happily thrashing that tail around. I think coming down stairs is hard. Just did 8 without a hitch though.
     
  63. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Banish that Doom and Gloom, Lois! Serves no useful purpose. Just enjoy watching him do his thing. It's OK that he's a bit tottery as a very elderly kitty.
     
  64. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oh $#@!?*$#. Got home at +3, and Did Stuff instead of testing right away.
    49 at +4
    56 at +4.5, so, right direction.
    He didn't eat enough this am.
     
  65. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Are you using a pet meter? Those are very low numbers. Get some high carb food into him ASAP - gravy from a can of HC with maybe a teaspoon of the food will do. Retest in 20 minutes after feeding. Don't give too much at once because you don't want to fill him up. You might need to continue this for a bit.

    It's possible that the bouncing was stopping at the same time as you upped the dose. He's also sensitive to dose changes. For future reference: if you had tested at +3 and saw his BG dropping too fast from 301 AMPS you would start intervening right away with a teaspoon or two of regular low carb food in an attempt to slow the drop.
     
  66. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    83 at +5
    Yes, it's the H Schein pet meter.
    Yes, having been through this before, once I saw the numbers, action. He readily had quite a bit of FF, that plus a few dollops of honey in the cheek first/ right away are bringing it back up.
    He ate this morning, just not enough to counteract the new dose, I think.
    HC is ?
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  67. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Whew!!
     
  68. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I know, it's all action Jackson without getting hyper around him, which wouldn't help. He's good about eating, if I bring the food to him.
    Going over in my mind what was different about today besides the dose change. Bringing food to him before I left. He ate some FF in the kitchen, and he has a bowl of YA in the kitchen and on the bed at all times. But I usually follow him around with another bowl of FF after coming in from outside, and I didn't, just the bowl out in kitchen.
    I think this was the cause of the hypo several weeks ago too. Argh, I know this about him and the food and the hypo! It's like I used up all my attention units talking to (houseguest) Maria about cooking food for Java and this basic thing went out the window. I feel bad for Java, stupid distracted thing to do.
    167 at +6.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
  69. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    If you're still talking to me after that idiotic and dangerous slip in consciousness, what dose tonight?
    +8 is 210.
     
  70. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    We're only human, Lois!
     
  71. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you give a fat 1 u because of the lows today. The 1.25 u can wait a day or two, numbers permitting.
     
  72. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    HC = "high carb" food.
     
  73. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oh!
    292 at +10
     
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  74. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Okay.
    Photo change, Java this morning. Cat ladder visible, background right.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
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  75. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Kris, you think it's safe to test him before I go to sleep, which will be about + 3 and then just wake up around +6 to check?

    Maybe you know the answer to this, I'm sure there were other answers to my question about B vitamins, but they've gone away, or, am I losing my mind?

    Edit, I just looked again and all the old ones are there now, plus some other new ones that weren't there when I looked 2 minutes ago. I'm confused, but apparently I have not lost my mind, there were other emails!
     
  76. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Yes you can do those tests - all data is good data. Is your SS up to date?
     
  77. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Yes, SS up to date. Fat 1 U.
    I've always awakened easily by alarm before for middle of night test. Wow, couldn't figure out the alarm or the phone, I was so sleepy last night. Didn't take up FF in kitchen, he might have had a little between 4 or 5 and 9 am, or Lily perhaps, a small amt was eaten.
     
  78. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oh goody, Control + End works to go to the last entry if I'm on the laptop. Which I rarely am, but, good to know.
    Did a little maintenance on the SS.
    I feel so blue about Java today. sigh. I wasn't sure whether to infuse him with Ringer's today or not. He was due yesterday but it wasn't the day to do it. I'm not sure today is either, except maybe he'll feel perkier if he gets rinsed out, so to speak, so I'm warming the Ringer's now.
    Let me post this right now, in case you are on. What do you think re the Ringer's? Go ahead? Wait a day? I have some other things I'd like to pick your spicy brains about, in a separate post.
     
  79. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Hi Kris, How are things going with Teasel? I saw someone comment that it looked like he was giving you a heck of a time, and tried looking at your SS to figure out what they meant. Sorry it's difficult.
    So I'm still thinking about whether or not I can go away, not for two days, but for a day, when former roommate Mona visits. That raises some Qs I want to ask you. And I just need to talk about him, thanks for listening.
    First, I'm feeding him in his bed. I take him bowls of FF and he eats it readily. He has YA on the bed and he eats that also. Pro: I mix with water, he gets some water with his slurry, they're good calories, helps keeps his weight up. Con: does have carbs, so it affects his BG more than YA only would.
    So second, if I go away for a day, I need to recruit Sarah and Maria (neighbor and houseguest) to come and make sure he's eating FF from a bowl in bed. I think that's what happened yesterday, he didn't get enough FF in the AM and the higher dose was too much without it.
    It's not a bad thing, feeding him FF, is it? Should I even try to get him to be YA only, given his age? I think not, just wondering what you think.
    If I go away and have to rely on Sarah and Maria to feed him FF ... what amount of insulin in the AM? Should I be doing anything in the days before that to lead up to it? This'll happen sometime the week of March 13, 14.
     
  80. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I have zero experience giving subQ fluids, Lois, so I can't advise.
     
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  81. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    I opted to do it.
     
  82. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    I think his safety is paramount when you're away. That boils down to two main things - 1. enough calories and high enough carbs to keep him from diving; 2. some insulin but a dose that's a little lower than ideal to keep him from diving.
     
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  83. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Yes, makes sense.
    Going with fat 1.
    218 at 2.5.
    114 at 5.5, he woke me up, by getting up .5 before my alarm. to pee, eat, drink. He'd have had YA on his own if I hadn't gotten up also and put FF under his nose. I don't keep wet food on my bed.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
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  84. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    This is the first morning that he hasn't wanted to go outside. :( The weather is gorgeous, too. Seems like he feels okay, eating well, no obvious discomfort.
    364 AMPS, ate well, FF.
    Fat 1 probably.
     
  85. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Then he's OK and just wants to hang out indoors with you. ;)
     
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  86. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Oct 21, 2016
    Yes. I like that idea of course!
    Went with Fat 1. He's due for B12 shot today. I'll do that closer to noon, let insulin work alone for now.
    Thanks for hanging in here with me Kris.
    Edit to add, tonight, I'm not going to jump in with FF in the middle of the night, since he demonstrated to me to that he will eat YA if I leave him alone. I want to see if that alone brings down his AMPS.
     
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  87. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Emailed with a former coworker today. Her 20 yr old cat now weighs 3 lbs and is bony and wobbly. Made me feel better about Java!
     
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  88. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Java just came into the kitchen looking for food. He hasn't done that in awhile. Food's up except YA because it's pre test. I'm thinking of testing him now, and then going ahead and giving him food after. It would be 10.5 hours after his AM shot instead of 12. Should be okay?
    Edit: 357 at +10.
    I think it should be fine because Prozinc is in and out, and it's clearly out. (I'm getting it!)
    Fat 1.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2017
  89. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Should be OK but I'd aim for no more than an hour off schedule even with in-and-out PZI. Try taking the YA up too in case it has a small effect on BG pre test.
     
  90. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    The shot was at +10.5. food right after +10 test.
    357 to 107 in 3.5 hours. That's big drop in a short time. (Yes?)
    He's eaten some fresh FF.
    I'm not sure if I should give him hi carb treats or honey or not. (Didn't)
    Edit: I spent +3.5 to +4.5 encouraging him to eat fresh FF, he's eaten maybe 1/5-1/6 can, then retested. He's now at 127.
    ------
    PMPS 357
    +3.5 - 107
    Intervened, encouraged FF
    +4.5 - 127
    +5.25 - 193
    This is pretty close to +6 and it doesn't seem dangerous, Now I wonder if I overreacted.
    I'll be up sometime between 2-4 am and will retest. I think it's safe to get some sleep now.
    Edit
    +7.5 - 311
    He was eating YA, will just leave FF on counter.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  91. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    It's OK to intervene with a little low carb food like FF if he's dropping too quickly. It *might* stave off a bounce. The high carb interventions happen when the BG is hovering near hypo level - 50 on a human meter and 68 or so on a pet meter.

    Nice blues, though. I'd stick with the fat 1 u for now.
     
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  92. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Where does the 99-70 stand? Should I have intervened, or let it go that low?
    I'm sorry to see the AMPS and PMPS creeping up. That's what maybe 1.25 could help with, yes? It's this middle part...The dance between FF and not eating and BG and insulin, darn it!
    He ate about a tsp. of FF this am, which is 12 hr from last night, then I shot, wanting insulin in him right away. Now I'm following him around with a bowl, asking him to eat more. It can take hour or more to get more food in him.
    He'd peed at 3 am, and once more by this am. He's doing normal things, unlike yesterday. He doesn't want to go out, is ok with indoor water, but is lying in sun in picture window, watching people and dogs walking by. That's normal.
    Am going to try diff bowl of FF. It's been 30 mins since shot already.
     
  93. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I wonder about giving him FF only pre and ~1-2 hrs post shot, then only YA until next shot.
    The YA literature says go YA only asap. I could try (hard if he asks for it). It'd be awesome to level him out, try to stay or reverse the neuropathy. His poor legs, tissues.
    He had another tsp of FF.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  94. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    It's an hour after shot, he's had about 4 tsp FF. I make a slurry and he laps that, high water content. Lily will eat it straight from can, easier to measure.
    Photo, Java eating on couch, bowl propped to angle towards him.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2017
  95. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    99 is great and 70 is "pay attention" if you're using a pet meter. I'd intervene with a LC snack at 70, wait 20 minutes or so and retest to see if BG is level, going up or going down. Repeat as needed - ie., if BG is falling.

    Yes, a higher dose could bring those down but it can't be at the expense of the nadir. The nadir rules because if it's too low it's dangerous.
     
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  96. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Pampered kitty! ;)
     
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  97. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Possibly. His hind legs in that photo...Sort of limp and useless compared to his prime. He was eating YA when I got home, good! Keeping FF up.
     
  98. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    I wasn't able to test him around + 3-4. He asked for FF around 5:30pm but was fine with YA. If I don't offer FF after pm shot, then I'd worry about him going too low over night. Coming up on PMPS soon.
    So far, so different from yesterday! So much higher. He isn't going to hypo, I'll test between now and AMPS if I wake up but not setting alarm.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2017
  99. Lois and Java

    Lois and Java Member

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    Tonight is so different from last night (342 at +3).
    His BG is barely down from PMPS (383)!
    He's having some YA now.
     
  100. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

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    Still bouncing from those recent blues. Keep doing what you've been doing.
     
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