Spreadsheets in reverse, with today at the top!!!!

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Pumbaa, Nov 13, 2012.

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  1. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

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    Apr 7, 2012
    I don't know about the rest of you, but I've thought it was nutso from the beginning that all of the spreadsheets on our FD kitties had the most recent data at the bottom, and we all waste so much time scrolling down to the bottom, after waiting for all of the old info to load, to see what was going on, today.

    So, I just reversed Pumbaa's SS, and now, the current information is at the top!

    Also, instead of "publishing to the web", I selected to share, which means that all of the notes I input in the cells are viewable via mousing over those cells, instead of having to go to the huge list of notes at the bottom of the file. That is another time saver, for me to input and for you all to view the notes about pertinent things like stalling, and dose increases/decreases, etc.

    I want people to help me manage my Pumbaa's FD and I want to make their helping me as easy as possible. It only makes sense to have the most current data at the top of the SS instead of at the bottom. And it only makes sense to have my notes in any individual cell available to read as a mouseover, instead of having to deal with footnotes.

    I had many rows of text that didn't sort with the rest of the data, and I which I had to cut and paste into place. But what made this easy was that I added text to those rows in advance, telling me the date that they occurred on.

    I hope people can get used to it, because I truly see this as being more efficient not just for me, but for anyone who is going to give me advice on Pumbaa's care. :) And if anyone else needs help changing their SS to this format, let me know.

    Suze
     
  2. dian and wheezer

    dian and wheezer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    actually, I like that idea of the newest at the top.
    can ya post instructions maybe
     
  3. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    suze, i understand what you're saying and why, but am offering a little different perspective...

    when analyzing spreadsheets of those using one of the long-acting insulins we look for "waves of action" because of the cumulative nature of the insulin... a single dose *can* affect up to the next 3 days. it's a lot easier for those offering help to view data in descending order rather than having the current information at the top of the spreadsheet. descending order makes the most logic and sense because what happened in the few days prior is what explains what is happening now. i've also seen too many mistakes made by those offering advice/suggestions when caregivers opt to put the most current data at the top.

    if you look at alex's spreadsheet you can see how i've made efficient use of each cell and the "Remarks" column to successfully make available all the info required for others to offer suggestions or help. others have devised different, but similar methods that work well.

    choosing the option to publish the spreadsheet is simply a courtesy extended to those of us who use google documents often for work or other reasons. if a caregiver chooses the "share" option, the document will remain on the document list of anyone whoever opens the spreadsheet. over time, this creates a huge amount of clutter. publishing the document is simply being considerate of other FDMB members.

    of course, caregiver's are free to set up spreadsheets any way they want. heck, they don't even have to set up a spreadsheet if they don't want to, but if they want help, want to make things easier for those offering suggestions, have less chance of misinterpretation by those offering advice, and want to be considerate of others... publishing the document and choosing descending order is the way to go.



    just another way to look at this...
     
  4. hmmmm, looking at it, it is sort of awkward seeing things upside down, and even though it is the same data, I found that looking at it backwards when trying to see trends was difficult.

    Before I became a park ranger, I was a computer geek who spent most of the work week generating reports and spreadsheets for a manufacturing plant. (God, I so do NOT miss those days!) And that mountain of paperwork was used across all departments by dozens of other desk jockeys. My emphasis and focus was to make sure that I compiled the data in a format that was most useful, logical and helpful to the people who actually were going to use it. It didn't matter to me, but I had to regularly meet with them to make sure that the paperwork met their needs.

    So I guess it depends on the purpose of the spreadsheet. If it's there for you to make sense out of, then customizing it makes perfect sense. But if it's there in order to make it easy for you to get feedback on what it all means, then I think that "conformity" might be the more logical way to go?

    It's weird seeing "blanks" at the top of a SS too.

    Carl
     
  5. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Jill, I understand what you're saying about looking for patterns of activity, publish vs. share, etc. And I had thought those things through before making this change. To me, saving time and being efficient is the most important thing, and it's my thought that not having to wait for data to load and not having to constantly scroll all the way to the bottom of the spreadsheets is a time saver for everyone.

    Having the most recent data at the top doesn't prevent anyone from looking for patterns in the numbers. All of the information is still there. It's just that we all got used to reading from the top down. This is kind of like traveling to Italy and having to learn to drive on the left side of the road. You get the hang of it quickly.

    Until yesterday, I never knew why some spreadsheets remained on my Google Drive list and others didn't (publish vs. share). I loved being able to go to certain spreadsheets and check up on cats I was watching, without having to go to a bookmark or hunt down a thread for the link to a spreadsheet. The spreadsheets that I don't want to check regularly, I simple removed from my Google Drive list.

    When you publish instead of share, people either have to scroll all the way to the bottom of the SS to see the notes listed in numerical order, or they have to try and make sense of what was typed in the Remarks column. I think it's easier and more accurate for people to be able to put their mouse over a particular cell and read the notes right there. Also, when you publish, you lose the ability to have the rows at the top with the hours frozen so that they always appear right above the data you are looking at. When I'm looking for patterns of when other cats had their nadirs, I hate having to tick off the hour columns.

    Worst case, if people complain and can't get used to it, I can revert back. But I hope people give it a chance. We're all busy people, and anything that improves efficiency is a good thing, yes?

    Suze
     
  6. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Carl:

    Sometimes conformity is good, but conformity seldom, if ever, breeds progress or innovation. ;-)

    The purpose of the SS is twofold: for me to document Pumbaa's reaction to his insulin, and for those who help me to be able to see Pumbaa's data and give advice based on what I input. I truly like the efficiency of the reverse order, and having notes appear on the cells that they pertain to. If the people who help me with Pumbaa's care can't get used to the SS in this format, then I will have no choice but to conform.

    But the funny thing is, if these spreadsheets had been set up initially with the most current information at the top, that's what everyone would be used to seeing, and it wouldn't be like learning to drive on the left side of the road. :)

    Suze
     
  7. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Dian:

    IMPORTANT: The first thing you want to do is take your current SS and go to "file" and "make a copy". Give it a new name, like "wheezerSS-reversed". That way, you always have the original SS, untouched, to go back to if you don't like this or if something goes wrong.

    If you have any rows that contain information other than the actual day and data (like when you started a new pen), you'll either want to make note of where these should appear, or add the date in the merged cell information to make putting them back in place easier after you sort.

    If you haven't already frozen rows 1 and 2 (the BG number guide and the table header rows), now would be a good time to do this.

    Click on the cell above the 1 and to the left of the A. Go to "data" and select "sort sheet by column A, from Z - A".

    Any of the rows that didn't contain BG data and the date will now appear at the top of your SS, so you need to put them back where they belong. So for your start of the month rows, you would click on the cell in the far left column of the row containing data for November 1st, go to "insert" and click on "row below". Then go to the row that states "November", and click on the cell in the far left column to select that entire row, click on "edit" and "cut". Then go to the new row you created before November 1st, click on the cell to the far left to highlight that entire row, and then go to "edit" and "paste". Repeat that for all of the merged cell informational rows that you had in the SS.

    FYI, if you used comments instead of notes in any of the cells, I don't think those copy over when you make a copy of the original SS. Notes do copy over, though.

    When you're done, you can either publish or share, whichever you choose. Copy the new url of the SS, and add it to your FDMB profile.

    Hope that helps if anyone else wants to try this out.

    Suze
     
  8. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    i keep forgetting you're relatively new to the message board. this reverse order method has been tried by others long before you happened upon it. it failed for the very reasons i mentioned above... most importantly, mistakes made in analyzing/interpreting data by those offering suggestions or advice based on data presented out of the natural order/progression. very few do a good job/are comfortable with analyzing spreadsheets as it is. why make it harder? that said, if a caregiver is using a reverse order spreadsheet for their own benefit they might find it helpful for their personal use.

    like you said, other's documents can be deleted from google accounts. however, if efficiency is the goal... publishing the document removes the time it takes to delete unwanted documents. to put it simply, the choice to share rather than publish creates more work for others. :?
     
  9. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    To put it simply, I love the efficiency of having the spreadsheets I view frequently available at one click on Google Drive, instead of having to hunt down a current thread, or having to open a new browser tab and then finding the bookmark to that SS.

    As for the spreadsheets that I don't want to retain on Google Drive? It takes me less than 5 seconds to check the boxes (plural) and click remove. :)
     
  10. ecurie

    ecurie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Hi Suze,
    I like your info at the top and i'm saving one of those for myself. (I bet we file the same way also.) But i don't think i'll use it on the forum. My thoughts are that we are asking people who have jobs, diabetic cats to care for, etc. etc. etc. to take what precious little spare time they have, go through the dozens of cats who are posting, check them all, think seriously about questions we post, come up with a good, safe answer and post back to us. There are a lot of us and there are always new people and cats coming on board. I'm only taking care of one diabetic cat and the time i spend is incredible. They are taking care of their own...PLUS all of ours. imagine the time it takes them.
    I think we need to make it as easy as possible for them to check our cats and offer the advice that is saving our cats and our sanity. If that means that they can look at our information as a waterfall instead of a ladder, so be it.

    I hope i dont sound like a goofball, snarky or anything. don't mean to. have great fun.
    mary and oliver
     
  11. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Mary:

    Don't worry, you don't sound goofy or snarky or anything. I appreciate your input. :)

    I'm glad you see the benefits to having the most current data at the top.

    I wish that everyone would think about this, and how it would actually save everyone time, if everyone did this. Think about a low BG number situation...those who are helping are waiting for updated posts or updated SS data on new numbers and what was done, as in feeding honey or HC or LC or whatever. If you're checking the SS and you hit refresh, you have to wait for the SS to reload all of the rows and then scroll all the way to the bottom each time you want updated information. With the most current data at the top, once you hit refresh, the latest information is visible immediately.

    Does it take getting used to? Of course, as does anything in our lives that has changed. If you moved your can opener to a different kitchen drawer than the one it's been in for the last 3 years, you'd have to get used to where it is now, too! :) What I've been doing is, instead of reading from the top down, I pick a date earlier than today (just like I do with the current spreadsheets), and then read from the bottom up. It's the same data in the same order in the rows, but once you've read the PM data, you move your eyes up a row instead of down. That's what it all boils down to...moving your eyeballs up a row instead of down a row. *LOL*

    And I certainly understand "busy". So that's not an excuse. Being busy is the reason I'm tired of waiting for spreadsheets to load and having to scroll all the way to the bottom, just so that I can see the most current data. Not to mention the published spreadsheets where you have to look at a reference number and then scroll even further down to see what that reference number refers to, instead of just being able to put your mouse over a cell and read the pertinent note.

    I'm laughing because we are all subjected to constant change every single day (i.e., time to update your computer operating system, your browser, your cellphone and/or cellphone software, adobe reader, flash player, java plugin....and on and on and on). I could tell a really funny story about my mom filling out her checkbook register in pen instead of pencil, using gallons of whiteout per month when she tries to balance her checkbook, cursing all the while, and yet being the queen of "But I've always done it this way!" *LOL*

    I don't believe in change for the sake of change, but when change is actually going to save time overall, it's worth it for me to pursue.

    Suze
     
  12. squeem3

    squeem3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    If the concern is scrolling through rows and rows of months/years of data to find the most current info, why not just have separate sheets in the SS for each month? It would be less scrolling to find the most current numbers, IMO. You would still be able to see that month's numbers and still be able to switch sheets to view the previous month(s). I have somethng similar for my GA cat's SS, only I have each year on a separate sheet. Each sheet is labeled with the year and the insulin used (we used 3 different ones). It's not hard at all to make a duplicate sheet in the SS, delete the bg numbers of the duplicate sheet so you have it ready for new numbers, rename the duplicate sheet, and redo the color formatting if necessary.

    My two cents :smile:
     
  13. There are also some realistic "givens" here too.

    Everybody isn't going to change their spreadsheets.

    The templates used to make them, and the instructions for them, aren't going to change.

    Everybody who looks at spreadsheets when trying to analyze and offer assistance or advice isn't going to be able to wrap their heads around doing things differently depending on which cat's SS they are looking at.


    I also see the benefit of seeing the most recent data at the top, but Squeem's idea of multiple pages makes more sense to me. That leaves the current data in a "format" that everyone can relate to. And cleans up the clutter. And if someone wants to look back at what happened a month or six months ago, the data is there on another tab.

    I think what is "key" with this is "what is the SS for?".
    If you are using the SS for your own reasons, then customize the heck out of it to make it easy for you to use. Hell, you could do it sideways for that matter, with the dates across the top and the hours down the left hand side, and then just scroll right and left instead of down.
    But if the purpose of the SS is as a tool so that other people can look, analyse and help you, then IMO, it should be in a format that lets them do that in the way that they are familiar with.

    I don't have a SS, never made one for Bob, but had I done one, I would have made it so that it worked best for me. And I would have used MS Excel instead of crappy Google Docs. But if I expected people here to help me understand what it meant, I would have produced "paperwork" that fit their needs, not mine.

    We already know that Every Cat is Different.
    And Every Bean is Different.
    I don't think we need to add Every Spreadsheet is Different to that pile.

    My 2ยข
    Carl
     
  14. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    The publish/share preference is meant to save time for the advice-givers, not the the people seeking advice. When checking the spreadsheets for dozens of cats daily, it is incredibly cumbersome each day to go through google docs and delete all the shared spreadsheets (because once you delete, it's going to be added again to your list the next time you open it). When they get mixed in with a gazillion other documents for work or school that you might also have on your Google Drive, it is certainly more cumbersome to go through and delete each unwanted spreadsheet rather than bookmark the spreadsheets you do want to keep all the time. Given the number of cats that advice givers often need to look at (especially on the TR board), I think that if you're posting daily for dosing advice, then you should probably publish your ss instead of sharing it just to be polite to the advice givers. If you're not posting daily for advice, it really doesn't matter that much.

    As for top down when analyzing a spreadsheet--this is a far more serious issue, with less wiggle room. It's not like learning to drive on the left side of the road, but more like learning to read a book reversed from bottom to top, right to left. Could it be done over time with some great effort by starting over and reteaching yourself to read? Sure. In meantime, are you are certainly not going to be able to interpret the information that you're reading as quickly and as well as you did before. It's just not the way most people's brains are taught to analyze information. Is it worth a few extra seconds of waiting for a page to load and scroll rather than asking people the enormous task of reversing the way their brains have been analyzing data for most of their lives, and as a result getting inferior advice for the effort? In my opinion, absolutely, 100%.

    When people analyze data (and this is across professions, whether they are in a medical, scientific, or information field), a top-down analysis approach is used when you start with a narrow set of goals, and use that framework to identify larger patterns and groupings of information. That is the what advice-givers are doing when they read our cats' spreadsheets. They are taking narrow goals/guidelines (the dosing protocol) and using the charted information to interpret data that allows for their dosing advice to resemble the dosing guidelines as closely as possible. Bottom-up analytics are typically used when you're starting data analysis without a defined set of goals, and you need to discover information. This is the way our human brains process information--and why it's not as simple as you think to reorder the spreadsheet. Of course, it's your spreadsheet and you can do whatever you want with it, but I wouldn't encourage people to do so as it's going to limit your and their ability to properly analyze the data.

    I think that starting page per month/quarter/year is a great compromise that does not affect the integrity of analysis while eliminating the load-and-scroll annoyance.
     
  15. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    suze: wow! it took you lesss than 5 seconds to remove unwanted ss documents from you google dive? i must look at a lot more spreadsheets than you. i cleaned my google drive out this morning before work. i deleted 109 ss docs! it took me considerably more than 5 seconds go through the lengthy list and complete the task.

    it's one thing to accumulate unwanted ss docs from those who may not be familiar with google drive. i've never minded taking the time to clean out those (the important thing is to get the numbers up so others have a solid basis of information in order to help), but it's quite another thing to promote the practice of choosing the "share" option rather than the "publish" option. cluttering up google docs by opting to "share" purposely is being inconsiderate to other members.

    but, let's not get side-tracked. there's a bigger issue here. i'd like to reiterate this point:

    "when analyzing spreadsheets of those using one of the long-acting insulins we look for "waves of action" because of the cumulative nature of the insulin... a single dose *can* affect up to the next 3 days. it's a lot easier for those offering help to view data in descending order rather than having the current information at the top of the spreadsheet. descending order makes the most logic and sense because what happened in the few days prior is what explains what is happening now. i've also seen too many mistakes made by those offering advice/suggestions when caregivers opt to put the most current data at the top."

    and​

    "this reverse order method has been tried by others long before you happened upon it. it failed for the very reasons i mentioned above... most importantly, mistakes made in analyzing/interpreting data by those offering suggestions or advice based on data presented out of the natural order/progression. very few do a good job/are comfortable with analyzing spreadsheets as it is. why make it harder? that said, if a caregiver is using a reverse order spreadsheet for their own benefit they might find it helpful for their personal use."

    so called efficiency vs safety? i'll opt for safety every time... especially when there are many work arounds which have been devised and used by other members.


    mary: on behalf of all the volunteers who spend so much of their free time helping other people and their kitties... thank you. it's nice to know others appreciate and give consideration to the time and efforts given freely by the volunteers who make this board work for caregivers and their kitties.

    squeem3: thank you for presenting another option. this is just one of many options others use.

    carl: "If you are using the SS for your own reasons, then customize the heck out of it to make it easy for you to use. Hell, you could do it sideways for that matter, with the dates across the top and the hours down the left hand side, and then just scroll right and left instead of down. But if the purpose of the SS is as a tool so that other people can look, analyse and help you, then IMO, it should be in a format that lets them do that in the way that they are familiar with." exactly. points well made!

    julia: as always, the voice of reason. :D
    i couldn't agree with you more. thanks for your input.



    suze, as i mentioned in my first post in this thread. spreadsheets are not mandatory. you and everyone else are free to use, not use, or customize a spreadsheeet however you like.



    however, in the interest of accurate and timely interpretation of your data when you need it most... those of you who are using the long-acting insulins and are seeking help may want to consider presenting your data in it's natural progression. after all, keeping kitty safe is our first and foremost priority.



    just some food for thought... my 2 cents... and it's back to work for me! :mrgreen:
     
  16. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Carl, I just verified that the template is blank...there are no dates entered, so the template wouldn't have to change.
     
  17. Suze,
    LIke I said, I never had to use it. A couple of times, I've created spreadsheets on Google, for other people. And I've messed around with it not for me, but so that I could answer questions asked about how it works in the Tech Support forum. I'm not a fan of Google Docs, period. It's only value to me is that it gives the people on this board a place to put their data. We'd be screwed without it.

    I was thinking of this from a Excel point of view too. When you put the data upside down, you would then have to "add rows" at the top of the SS every few days, right? And in the date column, can you autofill backwards? I've never tried. Each of these exercises is contrary to the logical way that people do them in a normal spreadsheet program, isn't it?

    I know you aren't a big fan of conformity.
    Progress and innovation are good things. I went through the whole "Total Quality Management" thing in the 90's. I'm a big proponent of improving processes. I am not a fan of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". Because there isn't a process in the world that can't be improved upon, no matter how well it works.

    This however, I believe, is one of those things where the "collective" trumps "individuality", and conformity makes perfect sense.

    Carl
     
  18. lynn and bear (ga)

    lynn and bear (ga) Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    For anyone who is looking understand what is going on with your kitty, trying to analyze your history bottom-up will be counterintuitive.
     
  19. Melanie and Smokey

    Melanie and Smokey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    If all you want to do is read the spreadsheet, flipping it is fine. If what you are trying to do is analyze the information given in it, then flipping it is not. The efficiency is only in the day to day entry and not in the finer details of trends and patterns. This is not something that people would just get used to, it goes against how we read and analyze spreadsheets- top left to bottom right. In an environment like this board where only a small % would actually flip the spreadsheet, the people doing the analyzing would not get used to it in anyway. What you would find is that they have limited time to help as many people as possible so they would open your spreadsheet, see the difficulty in following it, and close it and move on to someone who's spreadsheet they can follow and come back to yours only if they have time.


    Innovation is great. But it should only come about when someone truly understands the complete needs and output of the system already in place before the changes are made so that the output doesn't end up being something less than needed.

    If all you want is your spreadsheet to be yours and useful to you and not expect anyone else to consult from it, then I think it is a great idea, scrolling sucks.
     
  20. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    I've read all of the above comments and appreciate the input, and just have few final things to say:

    1) Had the spreadsheets been set up in reverse order, with the most current data at the top, from the beginning, analyzing the data would not be "counter-intuitive," "too hard to decipher," "too hard to get used to," etc. This wouldn't even be an issue right now, and I wouldn't be challenging the lack of efficiency of the loading and scroll times. This only has to do with what we got used to and comfort zones and resisting change, even when the change might be to your benefit.

    2) With Pumbaa's spreadsheet alone, this reverse order is saving me at least 5 minutes a day of loading time and scrolling time. That equals 30.42 hours a year that I will be saving just by having his SS with the most current data at the top. Considering that that is 76% of a normal 40-hour work week, the time savings is significant. As is the extra money in my pocket due to 30.42 more billable hours available in my life.

    3) For those who look at many FD spreadsheets per day, and wait for them to load and then scroll to the bottom for the most recent data, imagine if you saved even 20 minutes a day (but I am guessing it's higher than that, especially for Jill who appears to review more than 100 spreadsheets a day...unless she hadn't cleared out her Google Drive in a while as of this morning). That would be equivalent to 5.07 days in a year. Which is equivalent to a week's vacation!

    4) Any change takes time to get used to. But resistance to change, especially when it is going to save you precious time in the long run, I simply can't understand. Especially when the learning curve is simply from moving your eyeballs down a row to moving your eyeballs up a row. See #1 above. It's all about what you are used to. When so many of us are even more strapped for time now that we are dealing with diabetic cats, saving any time per day is crucial.

    When I was young, and I tried getting permission from my parents to do something I wanted to do, and used the excuse, "everyone is doing it," I was met with the challenge, "if everyone decided to jump off a cliff, would you do it, too?" No, I wouldn't have. Because I am an independent thinker.

    Now, due to all of the demands on my life, I need to do things in the most efficient manner I can, so my SS will remain in reverse order. (Sorry, Carl, but I can't conform to a total lack of efficiency, no matter what reasons/excuses are given.)

    If no one cares to visit Pumbaa's SS because of this, that's too bad, but I will deal with it. :)

    That's about all I have to say. Other than the fact that Pumbaa's SS will continue to be shared (not published to the web), so that anyone who chooses to view it can also see the notes I attached to the individual cells, simply by mousing over that particular cell. :)

    Suze

    ps: Squeem3: I had thought about splitting my SS into months, instead of a year or longer, but to me, that would be more difficult to search for trends than having an entire year (or longer) in one SS. It was a great suggestion, though, and I thank you for thinking outside of the box! (((HUGS)))
     
  21. knolet

    knolet Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    What a great debate... I have often thought it was a pain to scroll down, and let the sheet load... But then I use an iPad which, as much as I love it, is not always the most compatible with google docs.

    I have often wondered, but never took the time to find out, why sometimes other people's SS stayed in my google docs, and others didn't. I don't look at as many as the experts do, but again, using the iPad makes it more difficult to do things and I can't seem to delete the SS of those that I don't want/need to keep. So I usually use the "narrow by" filter to just look at those docs "owned by me". Someday when I get to a real computer I can delete the others. :smile:

    Have a good night.
    Kathie
     
  22. The entire premise of #1 above is flawed though. Spreadsheets would never have been set up backwards in the first place. As Julia pointed out, that is contrary to how people process data.
    From the first time we picked up a book, we have learned to read left to right, top to bottom. It's how our brains work.

    The whole loading and waiting issue isn't due to a flaw in the spreadsheets. It's due to their not being published. So is the issue about clutter on g-docs. If everyone followed the instructions for making a spreadsheet, this wouldn't even be a part of the discussion.

    If your spreadsheet was published, I could scroll all the way down to the bottom and see your footnotes more quickly than waiting for your shared spreadsheet to finish loading. It wouldn't matter that the "mouse over" feature didn't work.

    What you're doing is jumping over the cliff in spite of the fact that nobody else is.

    Carl

    ETA The mouse over feature doesn't work on my android tablet. The triangles aren't even visible. Ditto my phone.
     
  23. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    Carl, on my android phone, I can go to Pumbaa's shared SS (through the link here...I'm not logged on to Google Drive on my cellphone), and I can sort the dates either from new to old, or old to new. Notes don't show up as mouseover information, but revert back to [reference numbers] in brackets in the cells, and then a huge laundry list of notes at the bottom, just like a published SS.

    Also, the loading and waiting issue impacts me every time I go to Google Docs/Drive to input Pumbaa's data. That doesn't change whether I publish or share.

    Suze
     
  24. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    There's actually no load lag with spreadsheets on my Kindle, but there is on both of my my computers. I don't understand it.

    But I would like to re-emphasize that there is a safety concern here--is it worth the extra 5 minutes a day to risk your cat's safety? I don't know how to better explain that this is not just people being resistant to change, or not wanting to leave their comfort zone--it goes against the way people intuitively analyze data, and it's just a fact that a person is not going to be able to analyze and interpret data as well when the data is reversed. There have been many, many studies that show this.

    Here's a scenario. Imagine that you have a heart problem, and your doctor has just done an ECG. He learned a certain way to interpret heart data in medical school, and that's the way he's done it for many, many years, and that's the way all other doctors do it. All of a sudden, the lab tech starts reordering the test data so that it's in reverse order for the doctor because he thinks it's more efficient for him (the lab tech). Now, would you want your doctor interpreting your medical data the way he learned to interpret it, and make your medical decisions based off of that, or would you be ok with him suddenly prescribing your life-saving medication reading your data backwards?
     
  25. Melanie and Smokey

    Melanie and Smokey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2010
    Just don't expect that the advice givers will give up more of their time to afford the demands of you doing things your own way. Efficiency on one end does not mean efficiency on another. It might be more efficient for the Walmart night stocker to just park the pallet of stuff in the aisle because the shoppers will buy it all the next day anyway, so why unload it. That doesn't make it the best plan for the store as a whole. The advice givers here sacrifice a lot to help other members and to thumb your nose at their reasoning for wanting the data presented to them in a certain way that makes it better for them because it takes you more time is just a little rude IMO. You saving a few seconds of entering data shouldn't cost the people you are asking to help you time on their end (and they are telling you it will regardless of whether you accept or agree with what they are saying, they are ALL telling you that it will cause problems in time and safety.)
     
  26. lynn and bear (ga)

    lynn and bear (ga) Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Even if today were the very first day of FDMB, and everyone started from scratch having zero knowledge of previous FDMB spreadsheet habits and activity, it would still be counterintuitive to read your history bottom-up:

    ...siht ekil nettirw erew ti fi ecnetnes siht daer ot gniyrt ekil eb dluow tI
     
  27. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2012
    NOTE:
    When I posted the below, I was hungry, tired, crabby and stressed from yet another difficult day. I am not removing/changing what I typed, because, A) I meant it at the time, and B) you have all read it and there's no sense in pretending that I didn't say what I said.

    The final straw, after I had explained why I needed to do what I did (to make better use of my time, which I am analyzing in many areas of my life, and not just with this SS) and that I totally understood if people opted to not view this SS anymore, I was told that I was being "selfish" for making this simple change to my SS. After the weeks/months that I have had lately, that simply caused me to implode.

    Pumbaa's SS is now private. People who have not burned me at the stake for my decision, and who are open-minded enough to try this out and work with me, will have access. If it doesn't work out and those whose input I trust and care to continue to receive can't work with the SS with the newest info at the top, I can always change back, as I stated from the very beginning.

    What I find the saddest is all of the waste of time and energy expended in this thread. I certainly didn't have this time to waste, or this energy to expend. That was the whole point of changing the SS around in the first place.

    Suze (added the above 11/18/12)


    ***********************************************************************************



    Problem resolved, so you can all put your pitchforks away, and stop trying to burn me at the stake for my trying to manage my time more efficiently. Pumbaa's spreadsheet is no longer public.

    Before I say some hard truths, I want to thank the people who have really tried to help me and Pumbaa in the last 8 months. These people weren't on power trips, weren't tripping over their own egos, and really, truly cared to help me help my little guy. These people didn't just go to Pumbaa's SS, count off the days, and say "increase the dose" without looking at his history, or taking into account how HE was reacting to insulin, overall. I want to thank (in no specific order, other than in my brain) Chippendale's, Mel (MommaOfMuse), Sheila, Carl (I'll bet your Friday nights aren't the same these days now that Pumbaa isn't on Lantus! ;) ), Marje, BJM, Blue/Gayle (the mysterious one, but very supportive from the beginning!), LILandKIT, Squeaky and KT, tortie58, squeem3, max&emmasmommie, Squeaky and KT, etc. If I missed anyone, I truly apologize , as I went back through my posts from day one to comprise this list. :)

    Personal comments, against board rules, have been removed by webmaster.

    Suze
     
  28. Removing Pumbaa's spreadsheet from public view doesn't help Pumbaa, and that's what really matters. I hope you'll reconsider, Suze.

    Carl
     
  29. Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA

    Sheila & Beau GA & Jeddie GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    It's unfortunate that some people think that the members of this board are here to provide THEM with data to analyze and not the other way around. Meaning: the board exists for people to post about their cat's FD journey and ask for advice, if they care to - so how they ask should be their prerogative. If a "reversed" SS helps someone with how they manage their time, so be it. It is for the rest of us to take it or leave it - just as it is the responsibility of the OP to realize they may have made a choice that makes it likely fewer people will respond.

    We are not all lab techs working for the "Doctors" and needing to kowtow to their ways. If Jill or whomever does not like the reversed SS then she can choose to not reply.

    I believe that a note on the top of Suze's post calling attention to the reversal, as she did in the first post about it, is a good idea - necessary even - because of the non-standard format.

    There have been a handful of SS's that I have looked over that are visually difficult because of the customization that poster decided on. Did I admonish them to conform or else? No, I gritted my teeth and did my best. I would do the same with Pumbaa's SS. I did tell Suze it was awkward at first glance, but one look at it is not enough to make a judgement call on how well I can adapt to it. I wish others would have given this "experiment" some time.

    I had to laugh over the claim that we can customize our SS's or not even use one.... I have seen so many posts saying "Without a SS we/I cannot give advice."

    Suze, I hope that you will continue to post in Lev - where conformity is not tolerated! :lol:
     
  30. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Breathe, everyone. Please don't disintegrate into dissing each other.

    I believe you need to find what works best for you in monitoring your cat. And if you invite a reader, it helps to know what may work for that person - for example, I've got crappy vision and like larger, contrasting colors and fonts while others can read flyspecks I'd squint to see.

    And my stat brain (I'm an epidemiologist) is going
    What if the hours went down the left and the days sequentially across the top?
    What if I plotted graphs of various bits, such as pre-tests AM, pre-tests PM?
    What if it was a graph of a separate page of a simple list by date (any order), time, test result, insulin dose if given, with an equation showing the relationship among those things?
    Basically, how do I organize and present the data to optimize my interpretation?
    A fellow named Tufts wrote some nice works on presenting quantitative information.
    http://www.edwardtufte.com/tufte/
     
  31. To some extent, I think some of us aren't thinking about why we're here in the first place? I think the overwhelming majority of people who post on the board every day are here to help others. The "newer" you are, maybe the less people feel that way, because their newness might make them feel like they don't have much in the way of help to offer. Even though that isn't true. Everybody here has something to share that can help people, whether they know it or not. When I was treating Bob with insulin, I never asked anyone for any advice. But I got tons of it from people who didn't even realize they were helping me, just from reading what they'd said to others.
    I can remember being a "newbie" (hate that word) and seeing a question that had been posted by a long-time member, and I was all excited to find that I could actually answer it. She'd never given sub-q fluids before, and I'd done it dozens of times. After I posted my "advice", I noticed she had like 10,000 posts, and I felt like a total dork, thinking "wow, she must know this stuff, I must sound stupid". Actually, she PM'd me and thanked me, and told me she'd never had to give fluids. The point is, everybody can advise. But many people don't.

    All that said, I think the reason for people doing things the same way is to make it possible for the greatest number of people to give advice. Because the reason why we are all here is to help the cats. Isn't it?

    Sheila -
    Actually, I disagree with your first statement. The primary purpose for putting a spreadsheet out there and attaching it to your signature is to provide people with the data to analyze and assist. "Us". There's no other reason to put a link to it in your signature. The caregiver doesn't need or use the link. "We" do. I totally agree that the caregiver is the one who requests that someone look at the SS and asks for advice. How or if they ask is also up to them. Common sense would dictate that if someone is going to ask that we look at their spreadsheet, that the spreadsheet would be in the format easiest to read and interpret by the advisors. The fact that this board is based on "peer review", common sense would also dictate that you would want as many of your peers as possible to be able to offer some insight. Not encouraging new members (or old members) to do things in a way that ensures that most (if not all) people who will try to advise them can understand and evaluate their data is a disservice to their cats. When somebody says that they want to do things differently, I think it makes perfect sense for "us" to encourage them not to, and to explain why. IMO, that's what this thread is all about, and what people have been doing.

    I don't think this is about egos or kowtowing. I think it's about people saying "Look, I want to help you. But please make it as easy as possible for me to do that".

    Sorry, but IMO, that's a cheap shot. You only referred to the first part of the sentence. You left out the rest of what was said.

    That statement is 100% correct.
    And without data, you can't give advice. Not responsible advice anyway. I've seen that said a lot too, that "without a SS we/I can't give advice". I used to hate seeing it. Until I realized it was true. If anyone reads the "advice for advice givers" sticky, and adhere's to the "above all do no harm" precept, then they shouldn't be giving advice that is reliant on sufficient data, unless the data is there, and it makes sense to the eyes looking at it.

    Really, I think the statement in Suze's first post that got all the attention was the last thing she said:
    The thought of multiple people changing the way the spreadsheets are made available probably caused some anxiety, which I can completely understand being a big fan of looking at spreadsheets.

    Carl
     
  32. Never mind. It's not worth it.


    Carl
     
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