Starting to Lose Hope :(

Hi everyone,

Link to our previous thread(s) with our history: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/heres-our-curve.179337/

We have been testing at home for 6 weeks now and are thankful to have at least made some progress after 5 months without success using our vet's protocol. Within a few weeks we were able to get Abby's curve to smooth out considerably, but since then it remains stubbornly stuck at high readings. I continue to adjust her insulin dose up slowly in hopes of breaking through. I really don't know what else to do.

I think if that were our only issue we'd be OK, but compounding it is that Abby's behavior has taken a turn for the worse, which is really saying something considering how bad it had become over the last few months since her diagnosis already. Now not only does she not use her litterboxes, something which we have invested a great deal of time and resources into remedying, but she has begun actively peeing/spraying and pooping in our upstairs living space. She now does it 95% of the time, including blatantly standing in front of us and peeing while we watch. It is destroying our home. I have two young children and my husband and I both work full time. Our life is already so full that I have taken leave from work some days in order to shower. This cannot last.

I'm at wit's end. I've started having nightmares about it, as the euthanasia conversation has come up and I just can't bear the thought of it. Abby was our first child, and has been with us through 11 important years in our lives. She is not elderly, and while I do think she is suffering with the unregulated blood sugar I don't feel that she is miserable. I can't imagine anyone else would be willing to have her live with them given her issues. And while we could simply lock her in the basement of our house or something to reduce the damage, I wonder if she would really be happy anymore if we did that. I don't understand why she's doing it as literally nothing has changed at home lately in terms of our routine, living arrangement, anything. So I don't know what it causing this.

I don't know what to do. I feel like we can maybe have victory over the diabetes given enough time, I hope, maybe. I don't know why in the world we can't get her numbers better and they don't seem to trend down as her dose increases. But the peeing and defecating is an immediate family issue that needs to be fixed.

Help, please, anyone. :'(

 

Hi Miss Abby and Mom!

I'm still new here and want to offer whatever advise I can. I've read that once a kitty "goes" outside the litter box it has to be cleaned very well to the point they can't smell it anymore. I know there are folks here that can probably recommend a product. If a cat smells their "scent" outside the litter box they think its now ok to eliminate there. Now the big question is why is Miss Abby doing it in the first place.. Have you brought Abby to the vet to get a check up to make sure there is no underlying condition causing her to go out side the litter box? You say you've invested a great deal of time and resources in trying to remedy this behavior, how long has it been going on?

So I'm no expert but if you haven't already I would get her checked out by the vet. The next suggestion is if you're tried everything you can to stop her from going outside the litter box would you be opposed to professional help? I've worked with a great woman who is a cat behaviorist. Here's her website (below), not sure where you're located but it may even be something that can she can help you with, providing there isn't anything medically wrong, over the phone and via email.

I wish you and Abby the best of luck. There has to be a resolution.

http://lifelinecatbehavior.com/

 

her numbers are better, but I can see why the behaviors are really effecting the whole family. I wonder if confining her to a small space (ei a bathroom) for a period of time would help. they generally don't wanna pee where they are sleeping. just a box and a bed and food and water (and a few toys of course). also add in a feliway plug in for scratching and marking. https://www.amazon.com/CEVA-Animal-...0743085&sr=1-2&keywords=ceva feliway diffuser

will she go at all in a box? when she poops or pees put some of it in the box so she smells it. Don't wash the box with any kind of disinfectant... just water or water and mild soap. If you catch her actually going in the box, praise her and give a treat. (we did that for our cat zim and he took to it so much that he would run and stand in the box whenever we were near it, and then RUN to the kitchen for a treat without actually peeing. hahaha) My FAVORITE pet mess cleaner is Anti Icky Poo Unscented. If the smell of old accidents isn't 100% gone they will go there again. https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_...FS4&rh=n:2619533011,k:anti icky poo unscented

this is a pdf resource from dr. elsley's cat attract that might be helpful. https://www.drelseys.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/LitterBoxSolutionsUS032017.pdf


What was the changing point for us (and some people will say dry food is the devil) but we fed only a small 1/2 can of fancy feast in the morning and night, and the rest of the time it was Young Again Zero carb dry food, and within two weeks CC's preshot numbers came down. You can see the dramatic change in my spreadsheet. Might be worth a try.

Your other option in relation to getting those bg's down is perhaps trying a longer acting insulin like Prozinc or Lantus.

 

Thanks so much for the reply and encouragement.

To answer your questions - the litter box issues began around Feb, shortly after we started treating Abby with insulin following her Dx in Jan. Since then yes she has been to the vet to make sure there's not something else (eg. UTI) going on and she has checked out all clear each time.

At first she just started using the litter box a bit less and peed in the basement. Over time (weeks) it evolved to mostly peeing outside the litterbox but still pooping in it. Then she started peeing occasionally in our living space (about 6 weeks ago). Now it is to the point where she basically doesn't use the litter box and both pees and poops in our living space. We have tried new and additional litterboxes, cat attract litter, and numerous cleaning compounds including Nature's Miracle. We are as thorough as possible, we are cleaning up from her basically constantly now, but it is starting to overtake and we are having trouble keeping up with it so I'm not confident that we've found every single spot. Today I'm considering buying some baby diapers to try to put on her to give us a few hours to try to catch up on the ongoing house scrub.

I will definitely be looking into the cat behaviorist. Thank you!!

 

You are so very welcome! Please keep me posted. And I think you'll get a lot of help from Paula, she is AMAZING! She was a huge help in my household.
Hang in there

 

a blacklight flashlight could help in tracking down pee spots you may have missed.

I took in two strays back to back who where not yet fixed and peed on EVERYTHING for several weeks. it was aweful. Also had a cat with kidney cancer who just coudln't help it the last two months of her life. So I know how aweful it can be. Another cat would poop in the box but HATED peeing in it. He would go through phases where he would but then sneak off and pee somewhere. We think he was marking territory. our compromise was we put puppy pads outside of each box and he peed on those the last three years of his life. It was a relief to not find any around the rest of the house (unless someone left the basement bathroom door open.... for some reason he just couldn't help himself there.) So maybe try a puppy pad outside of each box... but I still think confining for a few days might help.

 

I feel your pain.. I'm housetraining a new dog at the moment, my old dog and the new dog both had severe diarrhoea for 3 weeks (intermittent) both were treated with tablets, although the old dog has colitis which means she's prone to this sometimes. And I won't even go into him having the diarrhoea in my bed, oh and vomiting there too a few days later.. not to mention peeing there 3 days in a row..

Anyway there's nothing more soul destroying than spending 90% of your time cleaning poo (and wee as the new dog also doesn't know to pee outside either!)

I feel your Pain!

This is a complete shot in the dark here but if you've exhausted everything else, is it possible the insulin you are using doesn't (for whatever reason) agree with your kitty? Would it be an idea to try a different type of insulin?

My reasoning for this is that you have said more than once that the behavioural issues began not long after you started giving her the brand she's currently getting, perhaps she has some sort of reaction to whatever it's based on. I know some are porcine, some bovine etc etc.. I don't actually know if thats a thing but it might be worth a shot if you are where you are now, you've nothing to lose, but the price of a new vial of a different insulin?

Sending prayers

 

Please don't lose hope! I have also had "messers" and I know how tiring and frustrating it is. Has anything besides her diagnosis changed? Litter, litter boxes, food, any changes to her living space, such as furniture, etc? How many litter boxes does she have? Also, if she has any hind leg weakness from either low potassium or neuropathy (both common with diabetes) she may find it difficult to get in and out of the pans. When did she last have bloodwork done? Did they check her potassium levels? Some cats do seem to feel yucky on some insulins, so maybe a change to another insulin would help; it also might help to bring her numbers down better than what you are currently using.

Here is another link to a behaviorist who is nationally known for helping with all issues cat: http://www.thecatcoach.com/
She's not my cup of tea, but she is very good at what she does.

 

I have a civvie Libby. We adopted her from the local humane society and brought her home. Did the introductions to the droolers and other kitties. All seemed well and everything was ok for about a year. Then a neighbours' cat came over one night for a visit on the doorstep. Big fight ensues through the screen door.

After that she peed everywhere. The sofa, the love seat, the rugs upstairs, my bed, my husbands, dirt bike boots and his gear bag. No matter how much we cleaned (Nature's Miracle), using the feliway spray, using 6 different litter types, cleaning litters boxes 3 times a day, getting new litter boxes, using that "no spray" spray, 3 UTI checks and complete blood work - it still continued. DH was ready to put her down. So, on my last visit to the vet I was like "either you help me stop this or I will need to give her back to the SPCA which means she may be put down".
She offered to give Clomicalm. 1 tab a day. This is the last resort as it is kitty prozac. It worked. Within 2 weeks all out side litter box activity stopped. We eventually got her down to 1/2 tab a day. Tried to wean her off it....2 weeks in she was peeing again.

We have instances now and again, I guess being a former stray for 3 years, there is some instinct to be ok with her colony but if there is a neighbours' cat in the front yard.. YIKES!

I wish you luck.

 

I have a civvie that pees on pee pads. I buy "medical chucks" a case of 300 for $29 on eBay. 17"x 24" pads. It might not be the answer to your issues but could be a clean up time saver in the mean time.
I know the frustration. He has ruined 4 couches/chairs, a bed, carpet, and any pet beds or clothes that are on the floor.

 

I had a lot of problem with Marvin peeing everywhere when he was first diagnosed. He did have a UTI, which was probably the biggest culprit at first. However he also has sever neurapathy due to the diabetes, which makes it too hard for him to climb in and out of the litter box. I had to find a solution so he could just walk in to the litter box. I now use an old cover to a large plastic bin insteed of a little box. I put a couple pee pads around it as he can't squat anymore, and lies down to pee and is sometime on the side of the tray. My sister had also recommended I simply cut one of the sides of the litter box so he could walk in, but since I don't have a DH, the bin cover is easier. lol. Keep in mind too, if she is still drinking like crazy, there maybe times she just can't make it to her litter box in time. If she is peeing near the litter, it maybe pain related if UTI has been ruled out. Oh yes, I also had to restrict Marvin to the kitchen only (tile floors) using a baby gate. I still do when not home or overnight. A bit less as using a tray instead of a box works 90% if the time.

 

Jig saws are easy to use. No husband required . I learned how to use one when I wanted to put a cat door into my garage door for feral cats to use. Lol

 

The food change is something I could easily try. I'm curious what you were feeding prior to that switch? Right now Abby is on 1 can of fancy feast in the morning and again at night. She seems very sensitive to the carb content in foods. We only give her the fish-based flavors as even the chicken one seemed to be spiking up her BG. Is the idea that by decreasing to 1/2 can that's less carbs overall?

And I am certain now that we're going to ask our vet to switch insulins. Luckily I have a pre-scheduled appointment in a week and a half so I can make my case then. I'm going to research Prozinc and Lantus more now, thank you!

Well, this is what I ended up doing the other night... (not sure why picture won't post directly so just linking to it here) https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bws4FmtPx7WPdlA2U0kxbzR0WUk/view?usp=sharing

...Needless to say Abby was not highly thrilled with me, but the diapers have at least bought my husband and I some breathing room to just take a moment and stop the chaos. As of yesterday she's now confined to the basement with her litter boxes, water, toys, etc except when we are home we put her in a diaper and let her in the living space with us. As a result we have now gotten to fully decon the kids' playroom, the dogs' toy bin, and my mudroom where she had peed across our shoe cubby and taken out 4 pairs in one shot. >.< I've got blue medical "chucks" (pee pads basically) that I use for diaper changes for my daughter so I'm going to throw some around the litter box as well. At this point I don't know if Abby even looks at her litter boxes, but anything is worth the shot.

One plus side of the diapers is I now have a better idea of how often she is peeing. I don't have much of a baseline to know what normal is but it doesn't seem highly excessive. But she goes about 4 times during the daytime. Maybe I can keep up the diaper concept until we get her BG under control and it will be fixable then. I'm really not sure. This doesn't seem sustainable long-term (we're going out of town for a few days this week and OMG the challenge of finding a caretaker who can handle this is not trivial), but it is working for now.

I am totally going to try this now (new insulin). After reading the posts here and thinking about it, I updated Abby's spreadsheet (link in signature) and it really does seem, at least in my completely uneducated opinion, as if we are just not getting there with the vetsulin. For a while there we had gotten her down to a nice gentle curve (green and yellow lines) which just needed to be shifted downward. But as I continue to increase her dose slowly, instead of the curve shifting down, it just kind of stretches, meaning the nadir gets lower but both ends get higher. I'm not sure what exactly that means in terms of which insulin would make sense to switch to, but I'm hoping my vet will be willing to look at my spreadsheet at our appointment coming up 5 Aug.

Also, omg your bed with the pups. That does not sound fun!!

Thanks for the behaviorist recommendation. To answer your questions, her litter box arrangement has changed since her diagnosis as part of our attempts to get her to start using it again. Now two litter boxes, one covered and one uncovered, with two different types of litter. She does indeed have hind leg weakness which appears to be getting worse (she gets B12 injections for this). She can still jump on counters, etc though. Her most recent bloodwork was within the last I'd say 3 months and the vet didn't mention anything unusual.

This was the third suggestion about changing insulin so yep, definitely will be looking to do that.

Thank you so much for your kindness <3

I have never heard of this. The efforts you describe to resolve after that fight sound so much like what we have gone through! I will be asking my vet about this option at our next appointment. Thank you!

Thanks so much, yep I will be trying these. I already have a bunch on hand because we use them for diaper changes for my daughter (way cheaper than the official diaper pads!)

Thank you for your suggestion!

 

Prior we were only feeding ff classic. She ate about 2 cans a day, before being diabetic she was definitely a kibble addict though.

 

I noticed in your signature that you are using Vetsulin. Have you considered trying a longer acting insulin? Many cats respond better to them. The insulins are Lantus, Levemir, ProZinc and PZI. If you switch to one of these, I would recommend starting over with a low dose, 1 unit, and gradually increasing it over several weeks to find your optimal dose. Since these work longer in the body than Vetsulin, you want to start low to prevent hypoglycemia.

 

Hi !
I know you are getting tons of advice.... I just wanted to share that when Dre was on vetsulin he was absolutely miserable-to the extent that I could hardly watch him because ehe is normally happy and bright.

He did not pee outside of the box but he was terribly depressed, I am wondering if your baby is feeling badly because of the insulin (which was actually made for a dogs metabolism)
just a thought?
BIG hugs!