Test in any of the back paw PINK FOOT/ PADS?

Discussion in 'Lantus / Levemir / Biosimilars' started by Tina & Rocky, Jan 11, 2014.

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  1. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Hi,

    I'm new here.. someone from another topic suggested that I post Rocky's case.

    Rocky was DKA a few weeks ago and survived. He was just diagnose with diabetes with the DKA. He probably didn't have it until maybe September or October of this year. My friend was feeding him Venti sized cups of dry Meow Mix but I don't know if that could cause it. Rocky was a rescue from a T-N-R and I couldn't stand to see him die so I took over his care. I thought maybe I could put his diabetes into remission by feeding him only no or low carb canned cat food, with insulin, of course.

    But is just isn't happening that way. He's on Lantus. I'm doing the 12 hr BG curve at home that I'll report to the vet tomorrow. I'm disappointed.

    At 8PM his BG was 364 before eating dinner. (he's eaten ONLY canned Instinct Venison since I've had him)
    at 10PM his BG was 325.
    At 12AM his BG was 409 :!:

    I called the vet and they told me not to worry, to just keep testing every 2 hrs through 10AM tomorrow.

    I read at one website that vet's aren't so worried about if a BG is high and that bothers me. I want to do everything I can, if it's possible, to push Rocky's diabetes into remission. I know it may not be possible, that his pancreas may never be able to function normal again.

    I do give him Zobaline, vitamin B12, 2x a day so that he is hungry enough to eat the deer meat food. I don't think he'll eat it without the Zobaline. I don't think that vitamin B12 would have a negative impact on the pancreas, do you? If anything, it should help it.

    I am interested in the 'tight control' group. I am wondering if I should try something like this with Rocky.

    Thank you,
    Tina
     
  2. Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey

    Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Hi Tina.

    Welcome. You've come to the right place. I am not knowledgeable enough to give you advice, but you will find a lot of people here who are, and lots more who, like me, have found support and help here and try to share it with others.

    Have you read all the stickies for newbies? If not, I encourage you to do so, as there is a TON of great info there. It's overwhelming at first. I printed it all out so I could re-read it over and over, and I still refer to it often. There is one that will tell you how to set up a spreadsheet on which you can record information about the injections and blood glucose readings, among other things. The advice-givers here like to be able to look at that so they know how to guide you.

    Don't be afraid to ask questions!!! There is no question that is too "dumb" or "silly" to ask. If you don't know the answer, ASK! Someone here will probably be able to give you the answer, or tell you how to find it. You are posting pretty late at night, so you may not get responses for a while. Someone should come along later in the morning that will help you get started.

    Meanwhile, good luck with Rocky. You are doing a wonderful thing, trying to save him, and now you have help. :D
     
  3. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Tina Marie had posted over in someone else's topic, over in the Feline Health forum. I thought there was a lot of great information there so I'm copying what she said here.

     
  4. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Tina,

    You've made a great start, already covering the most important aspects of treating diabetes in cats.
    1. low carb food. You are feeding Rocky the Instinct Venison.
    2. a good insulin. Lantus is one of the good ones.
    3. home testing. Important to keep our kitties safe and know what is going on with the BG (blood glucose) levels.

    This is a great foundation to build on.

    Yes, those high numbers are scary, but not as dangerous in the short term as the low numbers.

    You said that Rocky dropped to 50 one time. What was the date that happened? Was that testing with a human meter or a pet specific meter? In either case, it earned Rocky an automatic dose reduction according to the TR (tight regulation) protocol we use.

    Rocky may be bouncing off that low number and other low numbers. You said you are giving Rocky 1.5U of the Lantus insulin, correct? Is that still the dose you are giving?

    I think that having a spreadsheet to track the numbers and doses for Rocky would be really helpful to us and enable us to help you better. Here are the instructions from over in the Tech Support forum on how to set that up. How to Get a SS and Link in your Signature *updated 2/13/12

    My foster sugardude Wink had huge clumps of fur falling out and the worst dandruff, nickel sized patches, when he was unregulated. He was half bald! :eek: So yes, in my experience the unregulated diabetes could be a cause of the clumps of fur falling out with Rocky.

    No, the B-12 does not affect the BG levels if it has no sugars in it. The Zobaline has no sugars so it's ok to use for our diabetic cats. What the methyl B-12 helps with is diabetic neuropathy, nerve damage that can affect the back legs and cause the cat to walk on their hocks.
     
  5. Angela & Blackie & 3 Others

    Angela & Blackie & 3 Others Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2010
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    First of all, welcome to Lantus Land!!!! There is a wealth of information on here, and tons of people to help and answer questions. Feel free to ask as many times as you need to, even if they sound redundant to you. Sometimes, redundancy helps a person to learn better. Everyone learns things at their own speed, and you'll come across many times of trial and error periods.

    Don't get too discouraged. FD is treatable, and it is manageable, too. Some cats do go into remission sooner than others, and then there are others that may or may not. Either way, you need to prepare yourself just the same. I've been at this for going on 4 years now (Blackie's diagnosis was March 13, 2010), and I'm still trying to figure out the secret for getting her diet controlled. Currently, she's regulated for the most part, but I want more for her.

    In the meantime, lets get you situated here. The one thing that you need to set up is a spread sheet for Rocky. This will help you to keep track of his #s, and for others to view his SS, and his progress. They can tell what needs to be done by reading his #s. Here's the link to help you get his SS set up:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207&start=0

    This link will help you understand what we do here, and so forth:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=18139

    Here's the link to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus and Levemir:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1581

    Information with regards to Proper Handling and Storage of Insulin:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=151

    Information with regards to the insulin depot:

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=150

    And information for shooting and handling low #s (hopefully you won't experience them anytime soon, however, this is always good to know just in case...):

    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=147

    I know that this is a lot of information to read in the beginning, and it may seem overwhelming to you at first (we've ALL been where you're at), however, in time you will get to know things, and are learning how Rocky reacts to insulin dose changes, and food amounts, etc.

    Good luck, and don't be afraid. You've definitely come to the right place for help. These people will never steer you, or Rocky wrong. :D
     
  6. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Welcome to Lantus Land!

    We'll do our best to help you get Rocky regulated. As Deb noted, you've got several of the fundamental steps in place -- low carb food and home testing. Getting your spreadsheet set up will also allow us to help you so we can also see how Rocky is doing. It's very hard to provide any guidance if we can't see Rocky's numbers. As you'll find out, we're very numbers oriented here.

    If the higher numbers Rocky is experiencing occurred shortly after (i.e., within 3 days) that 50, it's possible that Rocky is bouncing off of the low number.
     
  7. Kim & Twice

    Kim & Twice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Welcome to LL Tina and sweet Rocky!! :D So glad you found us!
    Yes, please do read the stickies at the top of the forum as they will answer many of your questions as well as alert you to more questions you didn't even know you had :lol: There is a lot of great stuff to know, but you don't need to memorize it. We are here to help you in any way we can. You will find there is a tremendous amount of support in this family, and some very knowledgable people who will be able to provide you with the guidance you need and hopefully the answers you are looking for.
    As mentioned, the spreadsheet is vital to helping others see at a glance what is happening with Rocky. Otherwise, it looks like you have really done your homework and have Rocky on the right path.
    One thing to note, although remission is a wonderful thing, it's not a guarantee and it isn't the only good outcome. The biggest things we strive for is a healthy and happy cat. Getting them into some better healing numbers for their pancreas and aiding them in feeling top notch overall is key. And you will hear time and time again, that FD is a marathon, not a sprint. It takes time to help them into these healing numbers, because their bodies get used to the higher zones and most kitties 'bounce' when they hit some lower numbers. The liver panics and the numbers shoot up for a bit. By slowly and safely helping them along, hopefully the bounces will become less drastic and frequent.
    I'm so excited for Rocky that he found you! Welcome to our journey and our family :D
     
  8. lovey11

    lovey11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Welcome Tina. I found this board to be very helpful. I found it a few months after my cat was diagnosed. The fact that you can hometest will assure that

    Rocky doesn't go too low and will help you get the dose just right. If you are using a human meter, you don't want the cat to go below 50. What meter are you using?

    It depends on the cat, but some cats have their lowest BG's at midcyle (hours 5-8) after insulin. I learned many tips on how to get Lovey's numbers up quickly if

    the current dose is too high. If the cat goes below 50, you need to reduce the insulin. When I started, I was having trouble hometesting and was a mess.

    Lovey, my cat, and I are doing so much better now. Please put any questions you have in a post. You will get some great advice. Some people have

    years experience treating their cats and helping others.

    Sometimes you need to interpet why numbers are high. Sometimes when cats go too low below 50 or just

    a safe number that is lower than their bodies are used to, or drop quickly from a high to a lower number, their liver will cause thier blood sugar to rise to compensate. This type of rise is from the cat's body reacting to numbers that are different from what they are used to. This is referred to as bouncing
    or rebound. It can be short lived or effect the cat for a few days depending on the cat.
     
  9. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    just wanted to add my welcome! you're doing fine to start out and we'll do our best to help you. Kim/Twice had a very, very good point when she said that going off of insulin isn't the only good outcome - a well-regulated cat is a healthy cat. we can help you learn what you need to know to get him there. the stats of cats who follow the Tight Regulation Protocol soon after diagnosis and get regulated, and then go off of insulin are impressive. not every cat does, probably because they have underlying conditions, but getting the kitty regulated is our first goal.

    So keep posting - there's someone online almost around the clock. you'll usually find responses fairly quickly to your questions. Add the ? post icon at the top of the posting screen when you have questions and take it off when you have enough answers to satisfy you. you can also put topics into the subject line and people who know about that topic will see it and come.

    By editing the first post of your thread, or (cat) "condo" you can change what appears on the subject line on the main page.

    Don't worry about the current high numbers. They might be a reaction to that 50, but whatever they are from, you'll be able to get them under control. This is a slow process - we say "it's a marathon, not a sprint." but you'll get there.
     
  10. Tara & Buster

    Tara & Buster Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    So glad Rocky found such a wonderful bean to help him through this journey. Thank you for taking him in and accepting the challenge! Others have given you the essentials, but I just wanted to say hi. I hope we can get Rocky on the right track soon!
     
  11. Patty & Champ

    Patty & Champ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Welcome to LantusLand. I remember too well how overwhelmed I felt when Champ was first diagnosed. That was almost three years ago. While he's definitely not in remission and still needs insulin, he is healthier than he's ever been and our routine regarding his testing/shooting/feeding is so well established that it only takes minutes out of my day to do it all, and I'm a test-a-holic (someone who tests A LOT)!! If money is a concern, it really isn't necessary to feed such an expensive food. Zero carbs really aren't necessary. As long as it is low carb (I keep it at 5% carbs or lower), it's a good food. I feed Fancy Feast classics. I keep it to three flavors I know he loves; chicken feast, beef feast, and chunky chicken. Just find a flavor he loves that's low carb. For a nice zero carb snack, you have many options. Fancy Feast has a zero carb food, Fish & Shrimp (instead of saying "classic" on the can, it says "flaked"). You shouldn't feed fish very often, especially in male cats, because it can cause urinary problems, but it's good for a little snack. Also, there is freeze-dried chicken, salmon, and shrimp that cats usually love. You can also crush some of this up and sprinkle it on their food if they don't want to eat their meals. Champ's kitty crack is bonito flakes. He will do handstands just to get a little bit!!

    Again, welcome!! We're all here for you so if you ever need any morale support or any advice, just post!!
     
  12. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Hi,

    Thank you all for your really warm welcome. Is there a place where i can share who I am, my cat rescue, and Rocky's story?

    I'm not good at spread sheets so I'll ask a friend who is to create it for me. I can then probably figure out how to add in the numbers. I know that no one here can look at a bunch of numbers written inside of this post and tell me exactly what to do.. haha.. that would be very confusing, I think.

    Yes, I have studied cat health on the internet for several years now. I won't go into because I could fill a book. I have known since about 2006 that cats are obligated carnivores, they won't drink enough water on their own if fed dry kibble, and I believe that diet is a key component to a cat's good health.

    I think I tossed my records of Rocky's first BG readings when he first came home from the hospital after surviving DKA and being diagnosed as diabetic. I had taken his BG right away for about 3 nights because I thought that I was suppose to begin the "BG curve" right away. I remember that the numbers were never above 250, and I had one night as low as 50. On that night, in the middle of the night, I fed him 1/2 can of the Instinct and his BG went back up to something like 109 in 3 hours. The vet had told me to use corn syrup, but I knew that ANY food would cause is BG to rise, so why not give him something good to eat? I did call the 24 hour vet that night and they told me that I wasn't suppose to be taking his BG yet, that I was to wait for 10 days. So I stopped monitoring him. There may have been a few other times in those days where his BG was in the 80s and 60s. I will search for those papers but I honestly think that I tossed them.

    It's been past 10 days now and I had not been monitoring, as per the vets instructions. Rocky's fur started to come out in nickel-sized clumps again, and he has been drinking more water, but not an excessive amount, just more water. So, it was time to start the curve. My first reading last night before he ate was 364mg, so I knew we were in trouble... I called the vet each time it kept going up, finally reaching 458. I was panicked because I can't afford another DKA episode. It did come down again to 409 the next 3 hr reading but that is still way too high.

    This morning at 6AM I talked to the vet and told her that I was afraid to feed Rocky because of the last high reading of 409. She discussed it with her collegues and they agreed that I should increase Rocky's dosage to (2) units of Lantus. He was on 1.5.

    They told me not to take his BG at all for another 7 to 10 days, that I might not see any change his BG for at least 4 days. At the same time, they told me to monitor him for changes to see if he goes too low.

    I am using the Relion monitor that I bought from Walmart. It requires only a tiny amount of blood. I can't afford to go buy another one. I hope this one is satisfactory. It was suggested by Dr. Lisa Pierson on her website.

    It is nice to be here and thank you all for responding and wanting to help me and Rocky.

    -Tina

    **P.S. I wanted to add a correction. I said that I considered Rocky a newly diagnosed diabetic cat but I put the wrong date. In my friend's care, she noticed that he started peeing large volumes of urine in Sept. 2013, not in 2012. He did not come under my care and visit the vet until the beginning of December 2013. My friend had gone on vacation and I was watching Rocky. I knew that if I did not get him to the vet that he would die. He almost died of DKA anyway.
     
  13. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    couple of things - we all hometest our diabetic cats and we all encourage everyone else to do so too. Would any of us shoot insulin into a diabetic child without knowing whether or not it's safe?

    what your vet may not know is that high numbers can result from the cat having hit a low number. it doesn't always mean they need more insulin. cats get used to a range of blood sugar and then if they dip down from that, that ALONE can cause high numbers that last up to 3 days. Here is a link that explains 2 situations where you might see high blood sugar numbers but you don't want to increase the dose. They are EXTREMELY common. Nearly every cat that is unregulated has these 2 things happen. New Dose Wonkiness and Bouncing

    Cats can be very difficult to get regulated - a zillion times more difficult than a dog or a human. What we often find is that vets don't have much experience with diabetic cats. They have to deal with many different illnesses and often, diabetes gets 15 minutes. seriously. over the course of their degree programs, it is most often very minimal instruction on it. Many people just euthanize their cats upon diagnosis.

    Lantus and Levemir are the 2 best insulins for a cat because they last the longest in the body, but dosing with them is different than older insulins. Nearly all dose increases are based upon the LOW point that a cat gets to on a particular dose, not the high number. So we test in search of the lows, so we know if a dose is appropriate or not. With a cat that's had DKA we are far more cautious in our advising, so it's good you mentioned it. Every cat develops patterns in how they react to the insulin, which we will help you learn to see.

    We can get someone to set up a spreadsheet for you and you can enter the numbers in from that point on. It's easy to do and we're happy to help if you're not techy.

    before you increase the dose, if we could just see some numbers we could let you know if it's a good idea or not.

    overdosed cats have blood sugar numbers that look a lot like underdosed, but with enough tests, we can tell the difference.

    eta - no carbs isn't necessary or even necessarily good for the cat. most of us feed around 5% and that is plenty low. a mouse or bird is a cat's natural food and both contain some grains in their stomach. if i remember correctly, they average around 7%.
     
  14. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    This sticky New to the Group? is going to be your best friend for a while.

    We'd love to hear about Rocky's story and the rest of it. There are directions on the link above on how to create a profile and link it to your signature line. That's the place for it.

    Your meter is fine - the strips are some of the less expensive one and of course, that helps everyone out.

    and kudos to you for taking the little guy in! i'm sure he's better for it!
     
  15. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    IMPORTANT- Rocky's BG at 43mg

    I increased Rocky to (2) units of Lantus after eating breakfast this morning as per vet's instructions. This was after reporting the 12 hr BG readings, taken every 2 hrs, of over 400s.

    Rocky's BG after receiving the increased dosage of .5 units (was at 1.5 then vet said move to 2.0 units) is now TOO LOW.

    His reading is BG 43mg!!!

    What should I do? He is not having seizures. I have some Classic Chicken Fancy Feast. Should I feed him the entire can? He does seem a tad lethargic. He also seems a bit dehydrated. I know how to give fluids and have them as well as the needles and set-ups. Thinking of giving 100 ML of fluids. They gave him 200 mL. I think he has been peeing more than I knew. I need to switch to a clumping litter with him so I have a better idea of urine volume.

    He is scratching the heck out of his face again and is all bloody.

    Worried.. scared..
     
  16. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    ok - so the dose is more than enough.

    for now, pop open a can of high carb cat food if you've got any - anything that says gravy on it. squeeze out a teaspoon of the gravy and give it to rocky.

    then you're going to wait 15=20 minutes and retest. he'll be ok. i'll stay with you and help you steer him up.
     
  17. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    don't give zero carbs. if you don't have a cat food with gravy, give karo syrup, about a teaspoon or honey, or pancake syrup. we want carbs in him asap.
     
  18. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    don't keep editing your last post.

    go ahead and post a new one or we might miss something you're saying. i don't know why he's scratching his face, but that and his hair falling out might point to a food allergy.

    don't feed an entire can - we need him to be willing to eat. just a teaspoon of something with carbs.
     
  19. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    sorry - i keep somehow missing things in your post.

    don't give him fluids right now. sometimes that can lower BGs. let's just concentrate on getting him up.

    give 1 teaspoon of gravy only out of the cat food can, or karo, etc. then wait 15 minutes and retest.
     
  20. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Some quick information in your signature would be helpful too.
    Something like this:

    Tina and Rocky
    DX date 09/xx/13 DKA 12/xx/2013
    Relion (Confirm? Prime?) w/ Lantus
    Nature's Variety Instinct wet food, B-12 (Zobaline)

    Click on User control panel, at the top of the screen, select the Profile tab, Select Edit Signature from the left hand menu, type in this information, select submit to save. That information will now be at the end of each of your posts.
     
  21. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    for now, let's just deal with the BGs, but great info for later, deb!
     
  22. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Rocky is extremely hungry. I just fed him 1/2 can of Friskies Meledey's Beef in Gravy. A friend donated it to me for my ferals just yesterday and I remembered it was in the garage.

    Sorry that I fed him more than you asked me to give to him. He is devouring all of it.

    I will not give him any fluids in this moment, although I've dealt with dehydrated cats enough to know that he needs them by tonight, or I'm going to have to take him to the ER for re-hydration.

    I will stop editing my posts. Sorry to cause confusion.

    Thank goodness you are all here!!

    I will re-check Rocky's BG in 20 minutes. Set the timer to do so.
     
  23. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    many cats will naturally want to eat when their blood sugar goes low, so that's probably why he seems ravenous. the reason we give small amounts of the carbs is because with a long-lasting insulin like lev or lantus, it can take a while to bring up the blood sugar. so we just give them a teaspoon or so at a time, then recheck in 20ish minutes, and if the numbers are still under 50, we repeat the process. that can go on for a while and we like the kitty to stay hungry so we don't have trouble getting them to eat.

    no harm done though! there isn't one of us who hasn't done that same thing, especially the first time you see a low number that shocks you. i've given whole cans too! :lol: and ya know what? it works! :D

    tonight's dose needs to be reduced. how many hours until you give your next shot?
     
  24. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    When you have a chance, please print out this post and keep it where you can find it. Especially with the winter weather and potential electrical outages, you might need help when you can't get online here. This has all the details on how to handle low numbers at any time - at some point you'll be faced with one when you're ready to give a shot and this is really helpful: Shooting and Handling Low Numbers

    For now, here's the part on just dealing with a low number like you are doing right now.

     
  25. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    IMPORTANT UPDATE- going LOWER: at 37mg

    He's now at 37mg after eating 1/2 a can of Friskies Beef and Gravy.

    He's not shaking. No seizures that I can see.

    I do have Caro syrup. Should I give that to him right now?
     
  26. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    sometimes it takes more than 20 minutes to get teh carbs into the blood stream.

    give a teaspoon of the karo, wait 15 minutes and repost.

    i think we can bring him up, but if you get scared and want to go to the vet's, i'd understand. just tell me.

    we've had cats get below 30, but i don't know rocky.
     
  27. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Julie,

    Sorry I missed your post. I didn't know what to do. I just gave Rocky 2 tsps of Friskies Beef in Gravy Prime Filet. It is IMPOSSIBLE to separate the beef from the gravy in this type of food.

    He still really wants to eat and is eating it all. He is extremely happy to see me coming into the room with more food. Tail in air and running to me. No shaking, seizures, or wobbly walking that I can see. Seems very alert. How fast can he crash though? Scared..

    I'll wait another 20 minutes and take another reading. If still low at that time, or going lower, should I give Karo syrup or take him to the vet? Can someone please answer me ASAP, if you are available.

    Thank you!
     
  28. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    can you go ahead and retest now?

    it's been at least 1/2 hr since you gave him the 1/2 can of high carb, so he should be on his way up by now.
     
  29. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Julie,

    Rocky gets his next dose of insulin in 5 hours. I haven't even called the yet about his low numbers because he's still behaving like a normal cat, other than scratching the heck out of his face and making it bleed.

    Not sure to give him Karo syrup or more Beef and Gravy at next reading. It's not likely that it's going to spike to 100 in 20 minutes, I think. I pray it does not go lower still..
     
  30. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Tina

    Just talked to Julie so if you don't see her above post, please retest now....don't wait. He's had the first food in him for 30 minutes and he should be coming up.

    After you test, please check your private messages because I sent you one; I can set his SS up in about 1 minute so we can get some numbers on there to help us. To see your private messages, look in the upper left hand corner of the webpage to the right of "user control panel". click on where it probably says "1 new message".

    But first...test him and let us know where he is and we'll give you instructions. Him first, then we'll do SS.
     
  31. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Julie,

    I am waiting the 20 minutes after his 2nd feeding of Beef and Gravy. Fed him only the 2 tsps this time to keep him hungry just in case I need to keep feeding high carbs.

    Have not given any Karo syrup.
     
  32. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    ok. you're doing great tina! nothing like baptism by fire on your first day here!

    would you retest him now and post his current BGs? don't need to give any more carbs at this point. sometimes it takes longer to kick in and i can't imagine you haven't given him enough by now.

    just retest and post. just want to be sure he's on his way up.
     
  33. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Tina

    Please do not wait to test him again! Please test him now. Please trust us on this. It doesn't matter if he's acting fine or not.
     
  34. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Panic over- BG now at 50mg

    Julie and Marge,

    Rocky's BG is now at 50mg.


    As per your instructions, just retest him after 2nd serving of Friskies Prime Filet Beef and Gravy. In total, he has now eaten about 3/4 can of Friskies Prime Filet Beef and Gravy. (I have no idea how many carbs are in it.) I never gave him any Karo syrup.

    OK, so now am I going to panic in a few hours because his BG will skyrocket over 400 from feeding him this high carb canned food?
     
  35. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Tina

    The thing is that none of us know Rocky or how he responds to carbs so Julie was spot on in what she suggested and if he rises fast, it's may be somewhat carbs but it's probably more his liver reacting to those very low numbers. I'm actually surprised he's not higher than 50 with all of that in him. I would retest him thirty minutes from the last test. I wouldn't feed him more right this minute.
     
  36. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    great job!

    thanks for retesting and posting. in this kind of situation, i always sit on the other end on my computer and wish i had esp to know what was going on!

    he might very well go high from the high carbs, more likely from bouncing from having gotten into the 30's. not sure if you had a chance to see the link i gave you above on bouncing.

    the thing about high numbers - they are different in the body from this situation than just if he didn't have enough insulin. so i don't think you need to sweat the high numbers that might come from this.

    he might not go high from it, but if he *does, don't let them get to you.

    couple things now that the immediate issue is resolved.

    for whatever reason, when we post it offers us the option of a subject line. but the only subject line that shows on the main page is the one from the very first post of this thread. so we edit the first post multiple times during the day and put the most current information in there. the only reason i saw you were in need of help was because i happened to be checking in on you anyway. so when you need help, always edit that first post and put it in the subject line. if people had seen it on the main page, you'd have had lots of attention!

    the other thing is that numbers can wobble as the carbs wear off. the food carbs will last longer than Karo would've, so they might not wobble today. but sometimes they do, so we recheck every 30 minutes until the cat is over 70 or so and holding up for 2 tests without any carb intervention. that doesn't have to make total sense to you right now, but it will as you need it. we want to keep him over 50.

    Will you retest him again 30 minutes after your last test and repost by editing the subject line of your first post. I'll set a timer and be back to check in with you in 30 - here in Oregon that's 4:00pm.

    you doing ok?

    *edited to correct "if he doesn't" to "if he DOES"
     
  37. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    :lol: marje is so much more succinct than me! ;-) :D
     
  38. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: My mother would be amazed ;-)
     
  39. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Julie and Marge,

    I changed the subject like to IMPORTANT in the thread when I posted this emergency. Are you telling me I need to go back to my very first post in this group, in this forum, and change the subject line there so that the new condition gets noticed?

    I will re-test Rocky's BG again at 4PM, about 11 min. from now, and then post here. I hope it hasn't gone down.
     
  40. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    that's exactly right - you have to edit the subject line of the very first post of this thread. i saw your subject line change changes only because i was reading your thread anyway.
     
  41. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    Julie and Marge,

    At 4PM Rocky's BG 66mg.

    I feed 4 colonies of ferals at dusk every evening. Will I be able to do this tonight?

    Also, I don't have any Neosporin. Rocky's poor ears... I want to run to CVS or Rite Aid to get something for his pain. He has been such a good sport.

    I have not called Rocky's vet yet about what just happened. To think that they had advised me to not recheck him for 7 to 10 days after I had added that .5 to his dose. I just thought I should check about 6 to 8 hrs afterwards, just in case. I'm glad that I did!!

    Having said that, I really like Rocky's vets and they are part of a 24 hr hospital that is not even a 5 minutes drive from my house. I'm not going to switch vets.
     
  42. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky - Now a diabetic cat

    depends on how long you're going to be gone and where he is when you need to leave. if it doesn't take too long to get there and back, probably you'll be able to go.

    if you haven't given any more food (which you don't need to right now) test him again in 1/2 hr from the last test and repost. we'll be watching - if he's still rising you probably are done for today.

    most vets really are great, but they just don't have the experience with these newer insulins or extensive experience with diabetic cats. we can help guide you with the dosing and testing and teach you how to keep him safe.
     
  43. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky- 4pm reading is 66mg, so going up

    YAY! i can see your new subject line on the main page! WOOT!
     
  44. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

    Rocky's BG went up 3 points in last 1/2 an hour. I'm going to run to the store very fast and buy the Neosporin for his ears. BRB.

    Wondering, having a quesy feeling in my gut about how much insulin to give Rocky after he has his dinner tonight. I pulled an all-nighter last night with the 12 hr BG Curve for him. I am so tired..

    Going to call the vet and tell them what just happened over the past few hours, see what they have to say. Rocky's two vets are not working today. It was another vet who told me to increase the dosage.
     
  45. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

    that's not much of a rise. essentially flat, in fact.

    keep checking him every 1/2 hr.

    we're talking about his dose and will get back to you before you shoot. do you shoot at 8pm pacific time? if he keeps staying flat we think you might want to skip tonight. what do you think about that? let's see where he is later.

    the neosporin ointment with pain relief is awesome!
     
  46. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

    I'll be around tonight at about your shot time, Tina, so I can help you decided what to do. But, as Julie said, we think if he doesn't come WAY up, you should skip the shot tonight and allow his depot to drain. That also gives you time to fill in his SS so we can really study it and figure out what dose might be best for him. It's clearly not this one.
     
  47. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: BG 69mg - Rocky at 4:30PM

    Tina, don't want you to feel deserted, but i'm on my way out for the evening. there are plenty of people around to help you, and now that you know how to edit your subject line that will help.

    you can edit it all day long with current info. If you add a ? then people will make sure and check to see what your question is. If you have a question on a particular topic, say getting blood from his ear, you can post something like "help with blood testing?" and people will come and give you tips on what works for them. it's like a bulletin board that lets everyone see how the kitties are all doing at a glance.

    We use a particular format that let's people see at a glance how any cat is doing. Because we have people all over the world, we count a 24 hr clock. When you feel settled and up to trying it, the format is

    date - Rocky - AM or PM preshot blood sugar number, then the number of hours past the shot and the blood sugar.

    so today, you'd have had something like this:
    1/11 Rocky AMPS xx (i don't think you did a test preshot), +6/43, +6.75/37, +7.25/50, +8/66 +8.5/69

    you get the idea.

    then in the evening, some people erase everything back to the name and put PMPS and start the count over again. I always left up the low number for that cycle and erased the rest, then added the evening cycle.

    The next day start a new "condo" (think home for a cat) and in your first post of the day, include a link to the previous day. that way people can look back easily at what happened the day before or the day before that, to give the best possible advice to you. To do that, copy the browser address for the previous post, the in the new day's post, hit the URL button and put the web address between the brackets.

    We ask people to stick to one condo or thread, per cat per day. that way everyone stays on the front page and no one gets missed. just keep editing that subject line to include whatever you want. when you only edit the subject line it doesn't bump up your topic, so if you want help, also add a new reply at the bottom of the thread so it bumps up.

    Don't worry if this is confusing. People will help you along the way. You don't have to do this til you get the hang of it all, so no worries. just letting you know for when you're ready.

    I hope you have a great evening and can sleep well tonight. great job handling him today. and on behalf of the feral kitties, thanks for being a good person and feeding them!
     
  48. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

    Hi Julie,

    I'm so exhausted right now from pulling the all nighter BG Curve that I don't quiet understand the 'condo' thing. I won't start a new thread though, I'll just keep changing the subject line, for now.

    Ok.. So, I went to the store and bought Neosporin for Rocky's ears. Called the vet while I was in the parking lot and gave them the info. on the 'hypo' scare this afternoon. I asked them what dose I should give Rocky tonight at 8PM.

    The vet tech told me that I should bring Rocky in to their hospital. Remember that Rocky was at BG 409mg at 8AM this morning before he ate and before I gave him that (2) unit shot. Six hours later, at 2PM, he was at BG 43mg. That's when I fed him the high carb canned foods and started checking him every hour an hour.

    So, Rocky went from BG 400smg for a 12 hr period of time, then all the way down to BG 43mg, six hours after receiving an increased insulin dose.

    The vets aren't going to give me any advise. They want me to bring Rocky to the hospital as an emergency case because they don't have any appointments available tonight. That means it costs me a whole lot of extra money. I have already spent over $5k on him for the DKA.

    Is it possible that Rocky could be DKA again even with these low numbers? I don't have any of those DKA strips to test him, and even if I did, I wouldn't know exactly what to do..

    I can tell you this- Rocky has been drinking more water for the past 3 days. He is scratching his head until he bleeds again.

    I am thinking of reducing Rocky's dose of insulin to the original 1.5 units at 8PM tonight after he eats and then just monitoring all night. I will then try to make an appointment for the morning.

    Anyone else have anything to say about Rocky's insulin dosage or vet visit?


    Thank you!
     
  49. Suzanne & Cobb(GA)

    Suzanne & Cobb(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

    Hi Tina,

    I don't have any dosing advice. I'll leave that to those already helping you.

    I don't think you need to take him back to the vet though. It's obvious the 2 units was more than enough to bring him down quickly from those high numbers. And you'll probably see him bounce back up into them as his liver adjusts. They probably won't do anything that you can't do at home with monitoring, HC food and good guidance.

    I would continue to test him at the frequency Marje and Julie and recommending. They have a lot of experience. There are also people on the board almost around the clock. The quiet time is really between 3 and 5 eastern. That's between when the west coast people go to bed and the east coast people wake up.
     
  50. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

    Tina

    Remember that a 43 to them is really low because they use an Alpha Trak. While we don't like a kitty to be at 43 or lower, if a kitty is in the 40s, they are generally safe. There is just no cushion and so we like for them to get up as soon as possible.

    Cats with DKA can have a low BG but typically we would see a very high one. He' s likely drinking a lot of water because his BGs are high. Can you test him for ketones with urine ketone strips that you get at the pharmacy? They are much cheaper than the blood ketone strips and you just dip it in their urine, count 15 seconds, and compare it to the chart.

    The fact that he is eating right now tends to make me think he's not in a DKA episode. What we typically see with DKA (and remember that ECID so this is just in general) is high BGs, no eating, extremely lethargic, hanging out at the water bowl. If he was having those symptoms, I would urge you to get immediately to the vet.

    The decision is yours. IMHO, just based on his BG because I am not there to see him, I think I'd save the money. If you feel he is not feeling well or is acting abnormally in any way, then you should take him in. If you believe he seems to be feeling fine and acting normally, as long as he is eating and drinking, I'd give a second thought to taking him in.

    As far as the dose tonight, we need to see what he is doing at PS. If you can continue to let us know what his BG is, that would be helpful. While I originally thought skipping might be a good answer (I forgot he had DKA), it's not wise to not get some insulin in him. We might just have to shoot a greatly reduced dose just to get it in him.

    I've got to give Gracie insulin but I will continue to check on you. We can specifically talk about dose tonight when you test him at +11 which is 7pm your time. OK? Deep breath!!!
     
  51. Kim & Twice

    Kim & Twice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Re: NEED HELP ASAP- Rocky's Insulin dosage for tonight?

    Tina,
    Believe it or not, we will see cats go from that high a ps number to lower than 50 in 2-3 hours sometimes. The dose he is on is just too high, and will need to be modified, which it looks like Marje and Julie have been discussing for you. Also, because he went so low, he is surely going to bounce high. This happens because Mr. Liver panics. It is all things you will see as 'normal ongoings' in a short period of time. Lows and hypos are no light subject, and when it comes to a kitties safety that is our #1 most important job. And I am not underplaying his episode today, but if his numbers are ok right now, I don't think you need to bring him in. As for the DKA, I have no advice or experience to offer, but others will. Please hang tight for Marje. She will be here shortly to help you with this and talk about maybe holding off on tonights shot or reducing. Did you recheck his bg recently since coming back home?

    ETA: Ooops. I see Marje and Suzanne beat me at the typing race :lol:
     
  52. Sandy and Black Kitty

    Sandy and Black Kitty Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2009
    Re: MARJE- sent all info you asked for in PM to you

    Hello there and welcome :cool:

    Rocky sure knows how to make an entrance. . . . . :shock:

    Once the dust settles, I'd like to hear more about the DKA episode.

    Someone has already mentioned Ketostix, which you can get at the pharmacy. Please get them at your earliest convenience.
    (call first to make sure they carry them and that they are in stock)

    The importance of monitoring Rocky for the presence of ketones at this time can not be overstated.

    You came to the right place :cool:
     
  53. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: BG 91mg - Rocky at 7PM.. dinner is a little before 8PM

    Rocky's BG is 91mg for 7PM.

    His dinner is usually served between 7:45PM and 8PM. Shot after that.

    I have 30 other cats I need to feed in my house right now- 14 are mine, sort of.. The others in two other rooms are around 6 months old, (5 kittens though), all fully vetted and waiting to go up for adoption at PetSmart and Petco. Just not enough room in those pet store windows lately. Adoptions were really slow through Thanksgiving and Christmas.

    Keytone strips: Can't get anyone to answer phone or tell me anything at Walmart. Walmart doesn't sell Ketostix. What other brands of keytone sticks do I need to look for? Will check CVS. No advice from pharmacist likely as pharmacy closed at 7PM on a Saturday.
     
  54. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: BG 91mg - Rocky at 7PM.. dinner is a little before 8PM

    Most pharmacies like CVS and Walgreens sell them. They might be called Clinistix. You only want the ones that test for ketones. You don't need the dual strips that check ketones and glucose but in a pinch, they are better than nothing.

    We don't want you to feed him before you test him. So if you can test him a little before 8 and post, we will let you know and then you can feed him once e decide whether you should shoot and what you should shoot.

    One question.....are you able to stall his shot...can you be off schedule for an hour? You would have to make it up 30 mins a day so you'd be back on schedule Monday night if you stalled an hour.

    Do you have a lot of supplies...test strips, high carb food, syrup?

    I know you are really tired and we will probably suggest you shoot a reduced dose only because of the DKA in the equation. But because his depot is likely full, he could come back down. We're discussing the skipping vs stalling vs shooting reduced dose.

    So please check back a little before 8 and don't feed him or shoot ok?
     
  55. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: NO keyton strips on hand- need to run to store

    I could wait to feed him and to give him the shot. I need to run to the store and get the keytone strips right now.

    What if he hasn't peed to be able to tell if he has keytones? I dumped his litter and shredded a small bit of newspaper into the box, just in case he decides to use it.
     
  56. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: NO keyton strips on hand- need to run to store

    You can also put Saran Wrap in the box to catch the pee. Just do the best you can.

    I think it is fine for you to test when you get home, post, and then we will decide.
     
  57. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: HOME: Re-tested. At 8:10PM BG 110mg

    Home.

    Tested at 7PM was at 91mg.

    Tested at 8:10PM was at 110mg.

    Called vet again. They said even at 110mg it's still too low to give insulin. They have no appointments available tonight and they would charge me an emergency room visit to evaluate him. Money is a huge concern right now.

    Vet tech who talked to the vet said that they wanted to evaluate him. That I should bring his food and his insulin.

    He hasn't peed. He is waiting to eat.

    Vet tech said that if I wasn't going to bring him in that I should skip the insulin dose because 110mg is too low.

    What happens if it skyrockets overnight? Remember I did feed him that high carb food this afternoon during the hypo episode.
     
  58. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Re: NO keyton strips on hand- need to run to store

    In the event the ketone test strips are behind the counter and the pharmacy is closed for the night, for 2 of 3 ketone types, there is an odor like nail polish remover or a fruity smell. Sometimes (not always), you may smell this in the urine or on the breath.

    In conjunction with other signs the cat is not doing well, such as inappetance, dehydration, and/or lethargy, you should go to the vet. Ketones form as a by-product of fat breakdown for calories.

    My signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools has a number of assessments you may make to supplement the blood glucose testing and assess the health of your cat.
     
  59. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Re: HOME: Re-tested. At 8:10PM BG 110mg

    Yes, too low to shoot tonight.
    Yes, he may be high tomorrow from no glucose and reacting to going so low.

    Better too high for a day, than too low for a moment.

    Grit your teeth, test and post here in the morning.

    You did well today for your trial by fire.
     
  60. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: HOME: Re-tested. At 8:10PM BG 110mg

    Tina

    We don't consider this afternoon a hypo. He had no clinical symptoms. Were his numbers lower than we'd prefer for a newly dx cat? Yes. The 37 was lower than I like my cat to be but Rocky did not show any hypo symptoms, thankfully.

    If I was working with any other new member and their cat at this point was 110, I would advise them to skip the shot. As I've said before, the DKA issue is a concern because not enough insulin + infection + not enough food/water can lead to DKA. So whether you shoot or not is up to you.

    I wouldn't blame you for skipping because you don't have much data and the 2u was absolutely too much insulin. If you decide to not shoot, please be sure he eats really ell tonight, drinks, and you test his ketones a couple times.
     
  61. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Taking Rocky to the vet

    Taking Rocky to the vet now with his food, monitor, and insulin.

    He has been drinking more water in the past three days and scratching himself very bad again. I don't want to take any chances for another DKA episode.
     
  62. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2010
    Re: Taking Rocky to the vet

    Good luck and please keep us posted.
     
  63. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Taking Rocky to the vet

    (((tina)))) what a stressful day for you.

    We'll be watching for you to post. hang in there!
     
  64. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    We're home!

    BG was at 210mg by 10PM. Rocky tested negative for keytones. :thumbup

    Because I couldn't get Rocky's keytone test done at home it really stressed me out. That and the fact that he has been drinking a little bit more water, and scratching is face a WHOLE lot more.

    They put us in a room and they had me feed him his normal evening meal, except for that he was eating it at 9PM instead of at 8PM. I said prayers and pet him, talked to him. He seemed fine. Still acting frisky and alert. Devoured the food and wanted more. BTW he's put on one pound and a half since his DKA episode, which is good. He weighed 11 pounds then. He should weigh more like 13-15 pounds.

    About 40 minutes later we saw the vet, and the vet tech took Rocky away to do his BG reading with their machine and with my Relion. Their machine read 210mg and mine was 20 points lower. We talked about my Relion and it seems that it is consistently running on average about 20 points LOWER than their machine.

    Of course we didn't give Rocky any insulin after his evening meal tonight.

    They told me to not take his BG reading again, but to do another BG Curve in another 7 to 10 days. They said if I was going to randomly take a reading that I should do it about 6 hrs after a dose.

    They told me to give him the 1.5 units in the morning, instead of the 2.0. I guess I'll feed him his morning meal and give him his shot at his regular time since he didn't get any insulin tonight. I wonder if I should test him, just in case, before I feed him? :roll: It might be a good idea but if he has a really high number I'll probably freak out.

    I'm exhausted after last night and all of today, but feel I can go to bed feeling safer about Rocky boy tonight.
     
  65. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    honestly, tina, i don't know what they're thinking about not checking his blood sugar for a week. if you hadn't checked him today, where would he be right now? Did the vet suggest that he wasn't in danger when he got in the 30's?

    the fact that you gave him 3/4 of a can of 19% carb food and he barely nudged up makes me think he was coming down like a freight train. most cats take literally one teaspoon of food to raise their blood sugar. you saved his life. i really don't think i'm being overly dramatic with that. as always, the decisions are up to you, but because we want to educate you as best as we can, i feel like i need to point this out. none of us want any harm to come to you sweet boy and if you hadn't tested today we don't know if he'd still be here tonight.

    the reason your vet's glucometer is 20 points higher than yours is because they are calibrated to pets. We use human meters because the strips are a fraction of the cost of the pet-calibrated meters. Those strips are about $1 each and we can get people test strips for just a few cents. the tight Regulation Protocol that we refer to is using the human meters. There is a section with numbers calibrated to pet meters, but most people ditch the pet meters because of the cost.

    the difference isn't important - we "speak" and test with human meters.

    I've gotta go to bed, but i'm so glad everything turned out ok today. Probably 1.5u is ok in the morning, but i hope you will still test. I hope you'll test him before shooting his insulin and post it here if you have any doubt about whether it's safe to shoot or not. anything over 200 is ok, if it's less than that, though, give a shout so someone can help you.

    sleep well! see you tomorrow.
     
  66. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    Thanks for all of your support today Julie. We really needed it. I will take his BG in the morning before he eats to see where he is at and then post it. I think it will be over 200.

    I'm headed to be too right now. So tired. :dizcat Goodnight.
     
  67. Suzanne & Cobb(GA)

    Suzanne & Cobb(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2013
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    Hi Tina,

    What a rough night for you!

    I understand wanting to follow your vet's instructions. I did too when I first got here. She told me to only test when I was doing a curve for her and that it wasn't necessary any other time. She also told me I could keep Cobb on his "diabetic" dry food. His numbers consistently stayed in the 500/600 range. Her advice put Cobb at risk of developing DKA, especially since she said there was no need to test for ketones.

    When I found FDMB, these "crazy cat people" wanted me to do ketone tests, get a spreadsheet started, text Cobb at least 4 times a day AND switch him to wet food!! Had the vet suggested that I don't know what we would have done. It would have been even more overwhelming.

    But, if you look at Cobb's spreadsheet you can see the marked improvement he's made. You can also see times where he dipped into low numbers and then bounced high. What if that was the day I picked to send a curve to the vet? She would have increased his insulin. (You can see another good example of this with Ole this week.) The vet had us blindly shooting 10 units of insulin twice a day. If I had made a food change and not home tested, I could have killed him. And since I wasn't home testing I wouldn't be able to catch a potential dangerous drop, like I did tonight when Cobb dipped into the 60s.

    As Julie said, of course it is your decision. We all want Rocky to be safe. Home testing has given me peace of mind when increasing the dose because I can see what is and is not working.

    Hope you get some sleep! And keep asking questions! There is a lot of experience on this board!

    ~Suzanne
     
  68. lovey11

    lovey11 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2013
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    Hi Tina,

    You had a rough night. I am glad Rocky is home and negative for ketones. The vets like to wait about 7-10 days to do a curve on a pet to give the pet's body time to acclimate to the dose. However, if a dose is too high for the pet, it is possible that the pet could go too low and be put in a dangerous situation. I don't think a vet or anyone can predict exactly how an animal will react to a certain dose. Obviously the 2 units was too much for Rocky. His body reacted right away with a very low reading. Some pets require smaller doses of Lantus than others.

    So it is always good to do some checks for the purpose of preventing hypo situation. Another problem with only looking at one curve is the fact that it is only one sample of the pet's reaction. It is possible for a cat to go low one cycle and then high the next. If the curve happens to take place during a high cycle, the vet may say increase the insulin when it could be dangerous. Having more data always helps to make a better decision for the pet because you may be able to see patterns. It does take Lantus a little while to build up in the system. So you won't know the full effect of a dose until several cycles. If you get an unsafe number, you know to reduce and then try the next dose.
     
  69. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    I'm glad Rocky was OK.

    When I first joined FDMB, like many people, I spent some time lurking on the Health board. In a comment to another new member who's vet, like yours, was discouraging home testing multiple times a day, the member pointed out that if this vet had a child who was diabetic, would he test only once a week or less? That is not the advice that is given to any human diabetic. It would be irresponsible on the part of an MD to tell a diabetic to only test their BG every 7 - 10 days. I would be as attentive to my cat's well being as I would be for a child.

    As for testing at +6, that's fine providing your cat has read and follows the Lantus "rule" book. A +6 reading presumes that every cat has a nadir at midcycle. That would be great but it's not accurate. Just like everything feline, ECID. My kitty, for example, has her nadir at +3 or +4 and, she prone to very exciting dives (e.g., she's dropped from 243 to 98 at +2 this morning). If you look at Gabby's SS, you'll see I test hourly for the first few hours of her cycle because this is her pattern. Some cats have late nadirs. In other words, if you always test only at +6, you could easily miss the lowest point in your cat's cycle.

    Most vets don't see the number of diabetic cats that we deal with here. Clearly, you vet did great at helping Rocky recover from DKA. Many vets have limited experience with managing feline diabetes. We eat, breathe, and live the condition. It's just got to be impossible for a vet to be completely proficient in every, single illness that can effect every, single type of animal they care for in their practice. A dear friend who's an MD/PhD pointed out that when you do the work to learn about one illness, you can develop a great deal of expertise in that area. We don't have the breadth of knowledge a vet has but we do know feline diabetes and will help you to become just as informed so you can effectively manage Rocky's FD.
     
  70. Lauren&Tommy (GA)

    Lauren&Tommy (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2010
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    Oh that's great news that Rocky is home and Neg on the ketones.. Yeahhhh!! I'm glad you're here :smile:
    I don't know what I would have done with out the wonderful expertise of all who helped me with Tommy, and still are. Rocky is a very lucky kitty to have you as his bean :YMHUG:
     
  71. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    Comparing a human glucometer to a pet-specific glucometer is like reading temperature in Celsius vs Fahrenheit. Both are correct. You just need to know the reference ranges to interpret what the numbers mean.

    [Glucose reference ranges are unsubstantiated and have been removed by Moderator]


    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *​

    How to use the glucose reference values chart:

    When you get a test, look for the number on the chart that either equals, or contains, the test value you have. Read the information. As needed, make a decision and act.

    Ex. You are a new insulin user and you test your cat before giving insulin. The test is 300. It probably is safe to give insulin.

    Ex. You are an established user of Lantus, following the Tight Regulation protocol. You've tested around +5 to +7 to spot the nadir. It is 200 mg/dL. You probably need to increase the dose, following the instructions for the protocol.

    Ex. Your cat is acting funny. The eyes are a bit dilated. You are concerned and test the glucose. The number is 35 mg/dL. ACK! The cat may be in a hypoglycemic state. You quickly follow the HYPO protocol linked in the glucose reference values chart. (which we really, really, suggest you print out and post on your refrigerator.)
     
  72. Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)

    Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2010
    Re: We're home! BG was at 210mg by 10PM

    Hi Tina,
    I just read through your thread and wanted to say how glad I am that Rocky is OK. To add to the discussion of home testing: I am guilty (because of ignorance) of shooting my first diabetic kitty, Stu, without testing for 4 years before I found this board. He was using a PZI insulin that was later discontinued. When the PZI insulin became unavailable, a new vet switched him to Lantus. However, this vet did not realize how different a "depot" insulin like Lantus is from an "in-and-out" insulin like the old PZI. He continually raised Stu's dose (every 2 weeks, because I was instructed to come in for a blood-glucose test every 2 weeks). We were up to 8 units twice a day and poor Stu looked and acted awful. His blood glucose went up and up, the vet was raising his dose by 2 units at a time, and then, at 8 units, his blood glucose came crashing down. That was when I found this board. FDMB saved Stu's life. I learned to home test. I learned a lot about FD (still learning).

    Please don't blindly accept everything your vet tells you about caring for a feline diabetic. The protocol we use here on the Lantus Forum is tested and safe. You will learn so much here, and you will have help whenever you need it. Many of us have excellent relationships with our vets, and trust them to treat our kitties when they are ill, but we take responsibility ourselves for the everyday dealing with Feline Diabetes and do not involve the vet in our decisions with regard to dose, testing, feeding, etc.

    Welcome to Lantus Land!

    Ella & Rusty
     
  73. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: 356mg - Sunday Morning BG, 7:45AM

    Good morning,

    Rocky's BG this morning at 7:45AM was 356mg, with my Relion.

    Rocky had no insulin last night insulin and he even had been fed 3/4 of a can of high carb Friskies Beef and Gravy food yesterday afternoon.

    His last insulin was 2.0 Lantus on Saturday morning, at 8AM.

    Saturday morning BG was 405mg. Sunday morning BG is 356mg.

    I left Rocky's insulin from 12/21/2013 at the vet last night! DOH! @-) Thank goodness I had just bought a new bottle two days ago and it is in the fridge. I am going to give Rocky his 1.5 units this morning.
     
  74. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: 356mg - Sunday Morning BG, 7:45AM

    yesterday was such a flurry, i didn't ask you - do you go by Tina or Tina Marie?

    i hope you slept well! this stuff can be very exhausting.

    he'll come back down - don't worry about the high number this morning.
     
  75. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    I go by Tina, my middle name is Marie. Some people do call me Tina Marie in person.

    I am HAPPY with Rocky's 356mg, especially since he went without insulin last night.

    To everyone, yes, I did not trust increasing Rocky's Lantus dose to 2.0, and then not testing him at all for 7 to 10 days. I knew I wasn't going to follows doctor's orders. LOL

    I'm not sure, but Rocky may not have been in the 100mg - 250mg range since the first week that he came home from the hospital. I did test him for the first 3 days that he was home, and he was there..

    I need to talk more about what to feed him, (currently eating Nature's Variety canned Instinct Venison because it has zero carbs). But I don't want to mess up your Lantus thread.

    I also must find out something to do about his intense itching. He scratches himself so hard that it leaves patches and makes him bleed. He was dosed with Revolution when in the hospital for DKA. He was also on Tresaderm.

    FYI- Rocky went into the hospital for the first time DKA and had a TERRIBLE ear infection at the same time. I suspected that not being treated for that ear infection kick-started the entire DKA episode. Three vets who looked at him said Rocky's ears were so dirty that they could see either of his ear drums. I did a lot of online research and learned that most of the time, when HUMAN diabetics who go DKA, it's when they have an INFECTION :!:

    The vet wanted to give Rocky a Covenia shot last night for his skin/fur condition. They are worried he is going to get an infection. I don't care for Covenia because if he has a reax to it, there is nothing I can do about it. I have Clavamox in pill form at my house and I suggested to the vet that I give him that instead.

    But I wonder what is the BEST antibiotic for skin problems in cats? :?: :roll:

    They also want me to start using the Tresaderm on his raw skin spots, besides putting it inside of his ears. We did several different types of skin scrape tests on Rocky in the hospital when he was DKA. He has no skin fungal infections and does not have mites.
     
  76. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    this is a good place to talk about his skin problems. i have a lot of allergies myself and when i eat things i'm allergic to, i wear it on my skin. hives, rosacea, rashes like poison oak - all from foods i'm allergic to. i've heard a number of people here say their cats are allergic to various foods, even chicken, so they try novel proteins like duck or kangaroo. i don't have experience with it, though, so will let others help you on that one.

    we did have a dog that ate holes in her skin, she itched so badly. the vet said she was allergic to fleas and we kept treating her (for years) for that. the Willamette Valley is like flea heaven - the perfect climate for them. once i happened to be in a small pet store and asked a clerk about her skin and she had us switch to Innova, which was a hypoallergenic dog food. that was the end of years of terrible skin problems.

    so food is the first place i'd start with his skin issue. there is a great list on http://www.catinfo.org of canned foods and their carb value. you want his main food to be less than 10% carbs. most people feed in the 5% range and you want something high carb (over 15-20%) for days like yesterday. i'm sure people will suggest foods to help you explore some different options.

    eta - i don't know the best antibiotic for skin if it's infected, but you were smart to avoid the Convenia. it lasts 2 weeks in the body and if he's allergic to it . . . that's a long time to deal with an allergic response.
     
  77. Kim & Twice

    Kim & Twice Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Good morning Tina :coffee:
    Not sure if you have had time to read Dr. Pierson's feline nutrition info yet. Here is the link.
    I'm definitely wondering if all the scratching isn't due to a food allergy of some sort? Also, how were his teeth when he was at the clinic?

    ETA: And again, my typing skills are shown to be inferior :lol: (Good morning Julie! :coffee: )
     
  78. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Good morning, :coffee:

    Vets said Rocky's teeth were OK. It was his ears that are/were the problem.

    Rocky had been eating Meow Mix kibble before I took him in. I switched him immediately to grain-free canned Merrick Bistro Chicken. I don't know how many carbs it has so while he was in the hospital for DKA I switched Rocky to Nature's Variety canned Instinct Venison. Dr. PIerson's chart says it has zero carbs. It's a novelty protein I'm sure he has not had before. I am committed to feeding it to him for at least 4 months.

    He wouldn't eat it the canned venison, so I crumbled 1/2 of a sardine that was packed in natural spring water over it, both for breakfast and for dinner. He ate the venison fine after that. (A naturopathic vet told me that it was fine to give a cat (1) whole sardine packed in spring water per day to a cat. It has Omega 3s.)

    I also found that when I gave Zobaline to Jomo, a pancreatic cat that I had for 3 and 1/2 years that it increased her appetite. (Although she was not diabetic she walked on her hocks. After giving Zobline for 7 days she walked like a normal cat again for the rest of her entire life.) I give Zobaline to Rocky instead of vitamin B12 shots. Those vitamin B12 shots hurt and sting the cat at the infection site. I was hoping that the zobaline might help with the skin condition too.

    I now suspect that they itchy skin is due to his diabetes still not being regulated. Too many highs and lows. :-(
     
  79. Ann & Tess GA

    Ann & Tess GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Hi Tina, what a baptism of fire you had yesterday. We are all so glad that Rocky is OK.

    As others have said, vets don't always have enough trainging in one specific disease, we concentrate on FD. Telling you not to test doesn't make sense, as Sienne said, human diabetics would never fail to test before shooting or even eating. Why would you not test a cat, when a cat is even less able to communicate how it is feeling. Many owners will not want to be bothered w/ testing, insulin, proper food, but that is no reason to discourage those who are willing. Also, in the last few years Lantus has been getting a lot of attention in the veterinary community. it is the new go to insulin, great results for cats who are notoriously hard to regulate. but too many vets don't really take the time to learn how different Lantus is from the older quick acting insulins and it is very different! Especially that Lantus dose is determined by how low the cat goes at nadir, not on how high the BG is at preshot!Lantus forms a depot, a reserve, and the full effect of the dose is often not seen for 3 to 5 day, but that doesn't mean you don't need to test. A cat can still go low and that needs to be dealt with immediately as you saw yesterday. Dosing is also done in much smaller increments, usually .25U not 1U or even .5U.

    4 tests a day are necessary:
    • - before each shot (Preshot tests): this lets you know that the cat is not too low to safely administer insulin, like last night, Rocky was still low, so by testing, you knew it was not safe to give insulin. For new members we tell you to ask for advice if the preshot test is below 200. As you get more data and can predict Rocky's cycles, you will be able to shoot lower numbers. We've been doing this a while and frequently shoot numbers in the 50s, but we know Tess's cycles and that she has avery lat nadir (between +10 and +12.)

      - checking for nadir in each cycle ECID (every cat is different) some have early nadirs and some late. The nadir is also not fixed, today it can be at +4 and tomorrow at +10.

      - Many of us do other tests regularly too:
      • -- a +10 or +11 lets you know if the BG is going up or dropping at shot time, this can make a difference as to how you shoot.
        • A fairly low number at preshot may be safe to shoot if you see that it is up from the +10 or +11.
          A higher number may not, if you see that it is a dropping number!
        --If you know your cat tends to drop early, like Sienne's Gabby, you may want to test at +2 or +3 to see how quickly the insulin is taking effect.

    BG tests at the vet can also be elevated from stress, cats get scared at the vet and BG rises! A vet seeing this often says "oh, high BG, increase the dose!" and it may not be needed. Also, if a cat goes lower than it is used to, not even close to hypo range, the liver can react and dump glucagon and other regulatory hormones into the blood stream to counteract what is perceived as dangerously low BG. This can take up to 72 hours to clear and you don't want to increase insulin for high Bg numbers due to this type of "bounce."

    The vet tech said that your meter and their's was off by about 20 points, not unusual. But every time you tell them Rocky's numbers be sure to remind them of the difference! Often it is forgotten that we use human meters, they aren't used to it.

    I hope now that you have had a little rest you can take more of this in. A lot of information was given to you and there is still more for you to read! I hope this helps to explain things a little more.
     
  80. DD & Tinkerbell

    DD & Tinkerbell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Our beloved late Tinkerbell off and on had Rodent Ulcers (eosinophilic granuloma complex) the last couple of years before she died recently. They would stop, start, get treated, go away & come back sometimes a few months later. They were usually around her beautiful little face, on her cheekbones and neck. She usually took clavamox for it which usually cleared it up in a couple of days if I caught it at the first sign of an itchy breakout. I once had another cat (civvie) that was allergic to fleas & w/out regular flea treatment she would get scabs all over her body, in fact she was covered w/them when adopted, it took a few months of regular flea treatments to clear it all up finally & as long as she got regular flea treatments (about every 3-4 wks) she never had a problem again.

    Also there is a lot of info on covenia here in a lot of old threads, you might want to do a search for "covenia" and see what has been said about that issue over the years. I can tell you that my vet has standing orders to never give any of my cats covenia, ever, but to be honest I don't remember why, I only remember reading all about it here and then making that decision accordingly. Somebody else might have the covenia threads link, I am sorry I don't have time to search it all out & post the link(s), I just wanted to post a quick post about the rodent ulcers but I have to go fight w/my tractor now (won't start) and fix the fence that is coming down around the corral (today is the only day I can do it, I have to go back to tbp tomorrow).

    Good luck w/Rocky, you have definitely come to the right place and you are doing great, nothing like getting thrown into the thick of it all of a sudden, you are doing/did great!

    Desi
     
  81. Barbara and tuffy

    Barbara and tuffy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Link with Covenia info. http://www.catinfo.org/?link=convenia

    Also, beef can trigger skin allergies. I have a few kitties that cannot eat beef.
     
  82. DD & Tinkerbell

    DD & Tinkerbell Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Sorry I have no idea why my post posted twice so in this what used to be the duplicate I have obliterated it, it was exactly the same as above.

    I will only add thanks Barbara for the convenia link.

    Desi
     
  83. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    The one indication that Convenia has is for skin problems. However, you are absolutely correct -- because it lasts for over 2 weeks, if there's a reaction to the drug, it's a huge problem.

    Are you still giving Rocky a sardine? If so, lots of cats have allergies to fish. If you can eliminate the sardine and see if the itchiness subsides and his skin improves, that will be a clue. There are also other novel proteins you can try if this is a food allergy.

    You might ask the vet about some alternatives for treating allergy. This is what my vet recommended:
    Provided it's not a fish allergy that's causing the problem, Nordic Naturals makes a high quality brand of fish oil and the dropper is calibrated for small animals (e.g., cats).
     
  84. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Hi Gabby,

    Thank you for the helpful information. My hunch is that he is not allergic to fish but still may be a food allergy, and from the diabetes. I only gave him that sardine for about one week to get him accustomed to eating the venison. Because he likes it so much I thought I should reserve it for emergency situations where he refused to eat, but I'm not sure about doing that because I want him to have the Omega-3s.

    In general, I believe in giving the food that has the vitamin in it rather than the pill form. The only time that is not true for me is when we are trying to rebuild our intestinal flora. There are some great probiotics out there that can help very fast.

    I suspect that Rocky is having a problem with both his pancreas and his liver too. This is probably due to age, genes, and having been on a very bad diet for several months. At the first hospital where he was DKA, they did an ultra-sound and saw that his upper intestinal tract was inflamed but the bowels were unaffected. In addition, they said his liver looked like that of a diabetic cat.

    Even though Rocky is on high protein, no carb food, (canned Instinct Venison), he is still pooping large grey colored poops. I know from feeding my other cats high protein foods that those poops should be small and nearly black colored. When my kitty Jomo who had chronic pancreatitis was feeling well her poops where normal in color and size. When she was not feeling well they would be large and grey, or tan colored.

    I suspect Rocky might be having some type of infection in his bile ducts, maybe from the food allergy, but that I am probably feeding him too high of a protein food right now. I think I need to feed him one that has a better balance to it with a lower protein number to reduce the load on his liver. (Tests showed his kidneys were functioning fine.)

    I am going to start giving him the broad spectrum antibiotic Clavamox as well. Are pill pockets OK for a diabetic cat? I would need to give them to him 2x a day.

    Any suggesting for a lower protein canned cat food with very low carbs? I know Dr. Pierson's list and have it printed out but wanted to now what your cats like to eat.

    Hey, those of you who have cats who are OTJ, what were you feeding them when they went OTJ? What are you feeding them now?
     
  85. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    the dog pill pockets that are Duck and Pea pill pockets are the only ones safe for a diabetic. you just use as much as they need. the others have sugar in them.

    many people here feed their cats the Wellness, Friskies, or Fancy Feast varieties that are low carb. I fed punkin FF chicken feast or turkey and giblets. they are fairly high in phosphorus, so when he began developing kidney issues i switched to Friskies Special Diet Turkey and Giblets, which is both low carb and low phosphorus. All of those had carbs about 4-5%.

    There isn't a single cat food that is best - it has to do with your budget and what your cat will eat.

    Pancreatitis is common among diabetic cats. There is a great post Marje put together on the New to the Group sticky, near the bottom in the links that is on pancreatitis, symptoms and how to treat it. Any inflammation, pain or stress can raise blood sugar.
     
  86. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    The pancreas also produces digestive enzymes. Pancreatitis, especially chronic pancreatitis, may impair the ability to produce these enzymes. In that case, the feces may be light colored, frequent and/or voluminous, and may smell quite foul.

    Discuss this with your vet. It may be possible to do empirical therapy, that is, treat "as if" that is the diagosis. If it isn't the correct diagnosis, though, using enzymes won't help and could harm.

    Additional diagnostic possibilities I can think of are bacterial overgrowth, Inflammatory Bowel Disease, or a GI cancer of some sort.
     
  87. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Thank BJM,

    That's right. I forgot about that pancreatic pork enzyme powder. I used it with Jomo and OMG, it was so expensive. It sort of burns their both a little too so they are not crazy about eating their food. I had Jomo on and off of it. Sometimes her pancreas would recover and she wouldn't need it. Other times I had to supply it.

    I will check the color of his stool again and make sure that it is really light, pale colored. If it is, I will ask them if they would consider giving me a prescrp for this powder without all of the testing. Do you know where i can order it for less expensive than my vet would sell it?

    My vet wouldn't let an online pharmacy fill Rocky's insulin order because they only sell 10mL bottles of Lantus and couldn't sell smaller quantity. One 10mL bottle is about $169. My vet sells me 2mL bottle for $65 plus tax. I think that is outrageous but it looks like I'm stuck. :-(

    I was going to buy the 100 box of monoject 3/10 syringe with 1/2" needle from Thrivingpets.com for $22.00. Any place to get them even cheaper?
     
  88. Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey

    Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2011
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Tina, check the price at WalMart for syringes. I can't remember what I paid last time, but they were the cheapest I could find. Their brand is ReliOn.

    My vet told me to only test every few days, too. She also kept raising the insulin dose when Cinco didn't improve. Thank God for the board - they had me testing multiple times a day, reduced the dose, got his BG down, and eventually OTJ. When I first took Cinco to the vet, he was severely dehydrated, very lethargic, and his BG was off the charts - literally. He was basically near death. In fact, before I found the FDMB, the vet told me it was time to put him out of his misery. We had actually made up our minds to do so, when suddenly he stood up in his cage and started meowing at the top of his lungs! He wasn't ready to give up, so we didn't, and two and a half years later, he's still here, thanks largely to the wonderful people that are giving you advice today. I'm not telling you to ignore your vet's advice. I'm just saying you need to consider ALL the info you are being given. Only a vet that specializes in caring for diabetic animals knows as much as the people here, and I don't know where you are going to find one like that (except at UC Davis in CA). Please trust these people - they REALLY care, and they know what they're talking about.

    Good luck! I'll be watching your progress and cheering for you and Rocky. :RAHCAT Bless you for all you do for so many kitties that need help. cat_pet_icon
     
  89. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Mercola makes over-the-counter digestive enzymes for pets.

    Do be sure to ask if they could harm the cat if given and not needed.
     
  90. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
  91. Sienne and Gabby (GA)

    Sienne and Gabby (GA) Senior Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    I am not a big fan of giving pancreatic enzymes unless you know your cat has an exocrine pancreatic insufficiency.

    A light colored stool can be indicative of liver issues or a bile problem. I'm not sure what your vet was trying to communicate when he said that Rocky's liver looked like that of a diabetic cat. Some cats with DKA can be experiencing hepatic lipidosis if they aren't eating. However, I would expect this to have resolved. You may want to get a copy of the ultrasound report.

    I would check American Diabetes Wholesale to compare prices on syringes. Be aware if you're purchasing syringes on-line, many states will require your vet to fax a prescription for the syringes.

    Ummmm...... This is a problem. Your vet is repackaging Lantus. That's illegal. Lantus is still on patent. It is not permitted to be sold in any form other than it's original container -- either a 10 ml vial or in the Solostar pens. Each pen contain 3ml. The pens can be purchased as a box of 5 or, if you call around, you may be able to find a pharmacy that will sell a single pen. Sam's and Costco will fill prescriptions even if you aren't a member. Also, if you're going to call around, remember to call hospital outpatient pharmacies. They are very likely able to sell single pens.

    From Marvista Vet website re. exocrine pancreatic insufficiency:
     
  92. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    BJM- I just checked Rocky's stool and it is a nice and dark brown, nearly black color. Exactly what I wanted to see. It doesn't smell awful either. (Can't believe I'm examining and smelling cat crap again)

    Those Mercola enzymes are different than the Tumil-K type and Viokase-V type, if Rocky is really deficient in the enzymes. I don't think that product from Mercola will work to help him absorb the nutrients he needs. Jomo used this one: http://www.thrivingpets.com/index.php/viokase-v.html

    Julie- Those syringes look great. I'll order them right now. The monojet 3/10s I got from the vet are sticking a bit. They are charging me over $5.00 for 10 syringes with needles. :shock:

    I know A LOT about pancreatitis because I managed Jomo's very well for nearly 4 years, but I'd like to read what the FDMD board says too. Can someone send me the link about pancreatitis? I spent about 1/2 searching for it. Also, can someone please post the link for terminology? What is nadir? The falls? Etc..

    FYI- Haven't checked Rocky's BG since this morning. Will re-check Rocky's BG at 2PM, (that's in one hour). That will be 6 hrs after his morning shot.

    How does one add photos here? I haven't been successful at it.

    Thank you! :YMHUG:
     
  93. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Hi Sienna, (you are Sienna and the cat is Gabby?)

    I am not going to give him the enzyme stuff just yet. His stool looks good today. Still on tad bit on the large size, but Rocky is a big boned, but not fat, boy. He weighed 12 pounds last night.

    Can you please tell me where I can buy those pens? I used to buy Jomo's fluids from Costo and I'm a Costco member anyway. Unfortunately, I had buy another 2mL bottle from my vet about 2 days ago because I was nearly out the insulin they originally sold to me. I want to be prepared to purchase when I need to get him more insulin, the next time.
     
  94. Patty & Champ

    Patty & Champ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2011
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    Champ developed a food allergy when I did some experimenting when he had a bout of what I presumed was pancreatitis a couple years ago. On the advice of one of the members here (I can't remember who), I used witch hazel on the affected areas (I could see hives under his fur around his neck area). It cleared up the itching and hives in a matter of hours. Of course, I had also gone back to feeding him only his regular Fancy Feast again, but I'm sure the witch hazel helped the itchiness. Just make sure you get 100% witch hazel, soak a cotton ball with it, and pat the affected areas under they're saturated. It's nontoxic so safe if he licks himself.
     
  95. Tina & Rocky

    Tina & Rocky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2013
    Re: Rocky's New BG reading

    Rocky's BG reading at 2PM was 297mg.

    Not great, but we can live with that.

    What kind of treats can I feed Rocky after he has to have the ear poke?

    Thanks, Tina
     
  96. Ann & Tess GA

    Ann & Tess GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    There are a number of good foods, Wellness is a popular one. Calories only come from carbs, protein and fat. Since you are trying to go w/ low carb if you also want to decrease the protein, that leaves fat for calories. Higher fat foods tend to cause more digestive upsets than the higher protein, so I don't think reducing the protein is the way to go.

    We use Total-zymes an Total-biotics. Our civvie Emma had really soft smelly poop and it has helped her enormously. NWC's probiotics have many more strains than the other pet probiotics that we were using. I have both Tess and Emma on both products now. 1/8tsp or less twice a day mixed in their food. The price is very reasonable. There is some research into digestive enzymes helping w/ food allergies as well, since the help to better digest food and leave fewer waste products to be eliminated.
     
  97. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Re: Rocky's skin condition- bleeding, scratchy- Need help

    What we do for our cats! (Sniff)

    Its great that the stool is normal in appearance and that makes it unlikely to be EPI. As I noted checking with the vet is always prudent.

    Tumil-K is the mineral potassium, not an enzyme.

    Pancreatic enzymes such as the VioKase (porcine pancreas) include lipase, protease, and amylase to break down fat, protein, and starch, respectively.
    The Mercola product includes some pancreatin (with lipase, protease, and amylase) as well as ox bile extract (to help breakdown fat, betaine HCl and some plant-based enzymes (papain, bromelain) which break down proteins).
    So slightly different products and the VioKase is Rx only, which suggests it is more likely to cause a problem if taken incorrectly.
     
  98. Ann & Tess GA

    Ann & Tess GA Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2010
    Re: Rocky's New BG reading

    most pharmacies carry the Lantus pens, but you will need a Rx for them, if you buy a 5 pack it is a greater original outlay, but you get a total of 15 ml, not just 10. Each pen acts as a mini vial and the unopened ones will last longer than an opened 10 ml vial. Check out goodrx.com they can show what prices are for various pharmacies in your area. Some members have found that Target will sell single pens. It pretty much depends on the individual store though. There is a coupon that Lantus offers a good discount, you need to fill it out as if for a human though.

    For treats most of us use freeze dried treats, chicken, liver, shrimp. There are several makers, just be sure it is single ingredient.

    We'll look for the links for you. for now nadir is the lowest BG point in a cycle, typically about mid way through. The Falls is our term for when a cat goes into remission. Sorry, we have a lot of verbal shortcuts. ;-)
     
  99. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
  100. julie & punkin (ga)

    julie & punkin (ga) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Re: Rocky's New BG reading

    You want the New to the Group starred sticky for most of this.

    The specific links, ie, to pancreatitis or other single topics are at the bottom. I"m seeing BJM just posted and gave you the link to the pancreatitis post. you might want to look at the rest - but another day works too!

    ECID - every cat is different - which is not a slogan, but very true.

    She is Sienne and her diabetic cat is Gabby. Her civvie (non-diabetic) boy cat is Gizmo, who is known for his antics. he can catch things thrown to him. :lol:

    Regarding his blood sugar this afternoon, he has 2 things going on - the low numbers yesterday plus last night's skipped shot. he'll get back on track.

    we do have one slogan, but it's also true: "it's a marathon, not a sprint." there are no quick fixes to feline diabetes, so we have to think in terms of the long haul!
     
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