Testing/Feeding/Shooting/Testing???

Discussion in 'Caninsulin / Vetsulin and N / NPH' started by bbwyo, May 19, 2017.

  1. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2017
    I'm trying to figure out a schedule. We've only been on insulin for a little over a week so things are still settling down. I live in rural area and have no set schedule except we are up at 5-5:30. Before we started the C/V I had changed from all dry to 2/3's wet lo carb 1/3 w/d trying to maintain 300 cal a day+/-. I started feeding 3x a day the new diet in an effort to regulate hi bg#'s w/o insulin. Didn't work but overall condition improved.
    1. Ravenous appetite was one of the FB indications. Because most of the time I'm able I tried feeding 3x day with snacks in between when she seems really hungry. It works ok to AMPS at 5:30 feed +/- 2/3's let her outside and shoot when she comes in 6-6:30+/-. If I'm trying to keep track I then get another test sometime before/after the noonish meal. Otherwise I do the PMPS between 6-7 and shoot 20-30 mins after. This all gets complicated. The Vet has encouraged me to just use the W/D and leave it out so she learns that food is available and also lets her get food if she feels she needs it. My problem is she gobbles everything if it's there. The Vet said just try it but I'm hesitant because I don't want to go through the transitioning process again. BUT it certainly would be more convenient and if the insulin controls the FD and her bg #'s stabilize maybe I'm making it more complicated than it needs to be. Also if I change to feeding 2x a day,larger amounts, does this kick the BG #'s higher and how does that work with the insulin? The Vet started lo with 1 unit a day split AM + PM. I'm thinking this will have to be increased since as you can tell from spreadsheet she's not getting below the 200's. The Vet said she would be satisfied with #'s in low to mid 200's.
    2. Condition and activity wise she seems to be ok but she's been kind of crabby since starting insulin.
    3. I'm also trying to understand the timing between doses of insulin. I can get rather type A about it but just increases my worrying. I've always been able to "read" my pets pretty well but this FD is treacherous.
     
  2. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Hi Bev, if you successfully got her off dry W/D, you can just leave LC wet food out for her. When I won't be home to give my boy his "lunch" I freeze his wet food portion and it thaws out a couple hours later for him to eat. 2x daily feeding is an old school of thought and doesn't work for a lot of FD kitties. I think you giving her a "lunch" is better. Vetsulin is known for bigger drops so having that snack a few hours after meal can help make the drop more gentle. Is she still on 1.0U twice a day?

    2. Does she have any issues with Pork?
    3. Ideally you will take her PS test 30 minutes before shot time. Shots should be given on a 12/12 hour schedule, as close as you can. I believe Vetsulin has a 30 minute grace window. So if your morning shot was at 06:00, you want to give evening shot by 18:30.

    Apologies if I confused you more o_O. Just ask, and I'll try to further clarify anything I said :smuggrin:
     
  3. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2017
    Thank you getting less confused as we go along. No issues with pork that I know of. Also she is on .5 cu 2x daily for total of 1 cu per day. I do have more questions however. The Vet said it would be 2-3 weeks before we made any changes to dosing. I understand the purpose of insulin but a little confused on how it works. It seems like too much and too little create similar behavior? I understand it's a hormone and that different brands are made up of faster and slower acting components. When you said you thought Vetsulin had a 30 min. "grace" window I assume that means either 30 mins early or late? I think this is what my Vet was referring to as a 14 hr window meaning an hour on either side? Does that make sense?

    1. With a relatively fast acting insulin like V what happens if you miss that window? Could this bring on a hypo event?
    2. In a 12 hr cycle is food eaten earlier in the cycle processed more efficiently? So food eaten at +7 would cause more of a rise in b/g than one at +4?
    3. Do different foods metabolize (ie increase bg) at different rates?
    4. The 2 hr "no food" before AMPS and PMPS is generally the amount of time it takes for all food to be metabolized? So your testing is more accurate?
    5. One of the first signs of FD was her ravenous appetite which is why the Vet recommended w/d and leaving some available through the day, for her "comfort" level. Trusting that if she needs food she would have it available?
    6. She is an indoor outdoor cat and eats grass (and what else I don't know) while she is out. Do I need to get her inside 2 hrs before any testing? This mainly effects the evening reading and shot. Does anything she eats give the BG a boost so if I know she has eaten something should I cut back on her food?

    I hate to have so many questions for you. I have read all the catinfo. information from Dr. Pierson which is helpful. It's difficult to figure out how it all affects my feline and how to help her get back to normal. I so appreciate all the "hand holding" through this process.

    BTW: I dropped my vial of insulin this morning on the tile floor. It didn't break but was rattled pretty good. Any clue how much of an "event" this is in the efficiency of the insulin?
     
  4. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Yes, this is why we prefer to do small increases and decreases.
    Correct.
    I have not heard of this before, so this does not make sense to me lol
    1. Do you mean if you shoot like an hour later/ earlier? Or you feed and wait more than an hour to shoot?
    2. Personally, my boy does better when he gets his lunch before his nadir (lowest BG, peak insulin action) because I do think if he got it later in his cycle it would impact his BG more for next PS. So he typically gets lunch around +4.
    3. In terms of dry food vs. wet food, yes. This is why we use HC(high carb) gravy wet food when steering them from Hypo numbers. 50 on human meter is take action number. Honey/Karo acts the fastest, wet food maybe 15 minutes, dry food can take up to an hour to raise BG.
    4. Correct, we never want the PS number to be food influenced. This can be more difficult overnight for AMPS :smuggrin:
    5. Some kitties do find food on their own if they feel their BG is going lower. In relation to question #3, leaving LC (low carb) wet food out for snacking is more ideal. The W/D dry is too high in carbs for dry food. There are 3 more acceptable ones for diabetic kitties:
      • Young Again Zero / Zero Mature: 0 - 2% dry matter carb
      • Dr. Elsey's Clean Protein Chicken: 2.2 - 5.7 dry matter carbs
      • EVO Cat and Kitten (Purple bag): 6 - 8% dry matter carbs
    6. If she eats anything she hunts, like a mouse, that can effect her BG. I would strongly try to get her in at least 2 hours before PS tests just to be safe. Luckily mice are almost 0% carbs :joyful:.​

    No worries! FD is difficult because there aren't many generalized tips due to Every Cat is Different (ECID). Reading as much as you can, asking questions, and home testing are the best ways to figure out your Kitty :cat:

    I'm pretty sure Vetsulin is a suspension insulin like Prozinc and requires gentle "mixing" before drawing dose. It should be OK and since you are home testing, you can keep an eye on her numbers. ;)
     
  5. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
     
  6. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    As long as you can keep it within an hour early/late and food is on board. Many of us are single fur parents :bighug:
     
  7. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    Another ?. .. I started the 3x feeding when I was hoping to correct with better diet. Now that she is on insulin would it make any difference and/or would it be better to feed her larger meals (not increase total amount) when shooting? and say less during the mid-day meal as long as she wasn't really hungry AND definitely nothing for 2 hrs before PMPS? Thinking I could spread evening food out a little longer before bedtime.
    thanking you again. Things are getting better. If there was just something the Vet could give me:)
     
  8. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Cats are naturally grazers so larger meals don't work out so well. If she is doing well with the equal portions for meals and mid-day meal, I'd say stick with that and, yes, definitely nothing for 2 hours prior to PS :)

    Were you going to setup a Spreadsheet for Kitty? Just need a Google e-mail account. I can set one up for you pretty quick ;)
     
  9. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    it should be there already
     
  10. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Oh I do not see the link in Signature...
     
  11. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    I set it up yesterday and received positive that it was accessible. Maybe I've goofed up my signature. I edited it because it was too long?
     
  12. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Possibly lol. You can take out prior diet, calories, fructosomine tests, and weight. Keep the notes for yourself though somewhere :)
     
  13. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    thanks. will do. Do calories even matter? Do I have this right.... exercise requires more glucose so more exercise more insulin required by body? Know you don't change dose but it seems like her numbers are lower when she's been out climbing trees etc? Thanks again. I'll stop bugging you. Have a great rest of the weekend. Have I said THANK YOU!
     
  14. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    Calories can matter when trying to manage their weight and measuring their activity levels. I don't know if there is any "official" research but when I can get Maury to play, it does seem to help his numbers. He's still re-gaining strength back from diabetic neuropathy :).

    You're not bugging me at all :D and you are very welcome! I'm glad I can help!
    Hope to be able to see your SS link soon ;)
     
  15. Midnight's Mom

    Midnight's Mom Member

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    May 17, 2017
    I know this wasn't directed to me, but would you be able to help me set one up for Midnight? I do have a gmail.
     
  16. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    I give. Not sure what I've done but I don't know how to get it from Google to FD page. I think I've erased something. will make changes to profile as you suggested. I still have the spreadsheet set up and have been posting to it. Have somehow deleted link.
     
  17. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    check my signature again. I just copied the google drive link to my signature again. Let me know if you find it. thanks
     
  18. Midnight's Mom

    Midnight's Mom Member

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    May 17, 2017
    I see the link but not the file.
     
  19. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Bev, that link is for your Google drive folder. Have the Spreadsheet open and copy the URL link from that and re-paste it over the current one in your Signature :)
     
  20. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    I think I did as you instructed. Let me know if it works??? Thanks
     
  21. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

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    Jan 11, 2017
    Almost there :bighug:. It's set to private. When you're on the SS page, there's a blue button top right corner that says "Share". Another small popup window will appear, top right corner of that box click "Get Shareable link", should automatically copy it to your clipboard and paste that one. Sorry I forgot that step before :facepalm:.
     
  22. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2017
    If I have a new question do I post another thread? I'm a little concerned because tonight the pretest was 291 now at +2 she was at 164. This is the lowest she's been since starting vetsulin. She seemed to want more food so I gave her some extra after the +2 poke and now she's sleeping. This sounds nuts but I can't tell if she's calm or not feeling good because her bg hasn't been this low for a long time? (I'm guessing) I think her nadir is between +4 and +5. The Vet said at such a low dose .5 cu I didn't need to worry about hypoing. And it doesn't appear that will happen but I'm a little concerned since I don't know what "normal" is for her. It is our normal bedtime. Is it appropriate to give additional food? Will this make the Vetsulin "run out" even faster? I know I was reading a thread on regulating with food but can't seem to find it again. Any suggestions? I also have a question about the b-12 supplement recommended for DN. Since she is arthritic and it seems like she "creaks" more when bg bouncing around would it be appropriate to add this to her diet?
     
  23. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    You can keep posting on this one and once it reaches over a page, start a new one. Congrats on your blues last night! Very nice healing numbers :cool:! Don't mean to try and scare you but a Hypo is still possible even on 0.5U of insulin. Only time there's no need to worry about a cat going hypoglycemic is when they do not receive insulin. Their BG may naturally run low but the natural insulin produced by a healthy body, will not make it hypoglycemic, make sense? ;) Normal BG range for kitties on a human meter is 50 - 120, pet meter 68 - 150. That's why the lower number of the range is our "take action" number.

    Those blue numbers are perfectly safe numbers but as you stated, we do not know when her nadir is. Do you think you'll be able to do a curve soon? Test every 2 hours for one cycle. Do you usually give her a snack at +2? Does she need to gain weight?

    A popular supplement is Zobaline (Methylcobalamin B-12), not Xobaline (this is for humans), which has helped many kitties with neuropathy. From the data you have I don't really see bouncing :). I think she is doing very well for just a short time :cat:. As she spends more time in "healing numbers" (some say <250, others say <200) it will help her neuropathy even more.

    I can't afford to get Zobaline for my boy so I have just been working on his BG. Little over 5 months in our sugar dance, his front paws are pretty close to normal again. He had neuropathy in front and hind. His hind legs are not on their hocks anymore but still lower than a normal cat. So I will attest that better numbers can help reverse the neuropathy. Nerves are the slowest things to "heal". Just needed some extra patience pants ;)

    You're doing great! Keep asking questions :) I will try to help as much as I can and if I don't know something I will tell you I don't ;)
     
  24. bbwyo

    bbwyo Member

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    Apr 24, 2017
    Thanks for the info. I guess I started another thread
    Update - Remission? after the low #'s and Vet said to lay off. JanetNJ has been offering great advice and I talked with Vet this morning to confirm that "doing nothing" wasn't the best option. You can pick up on that thread but I did have some questions on your comment on the difference in readings between human glucose monitors and pet monitors? Would it better if I bought a pet meter or is it safe to adjust "thinking" based on the above guidelines? I like the Relion but seem to be easily confused these days. RE: curve. The Vet recommended a .25 cu once a day in the morning for 3 days to see how she responded. The Vet is also receptive to trying another insulin but she is most familiar with Vetsulin and Lantus. She was open to Levemir but I didn't know to ask about the ProZinc. When we started getting the lower numbers I was afraid of hypo but guess that was an over reaction on my part.

    The Vet said the low numbers we an indication Kitty's pancreas was working intermittently so it's difficult to predict dosing? I did order B12 M that was available on AMazon...It's not the Zobalin but JanetNJ said it was what she used. It's also interesting that the DN you referred to was not just in the hind legs. I wasn't sure about this and the Vet only referred to the weakness in hind qtrs. But said if overall muscle weakness was an issue the B12M wouldn't hurt.

    Thank you for all the info. There is so much to absorb.
     

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