The Switch to Prozinc, Part 2

Timmy is at 47 @ +5. He is having his second LC snack and I will test again in 15 minutes and will post. Yikes!! At +4 he was 154, didn't see this coming at all.

 

Hey Timmy - yeah over here - no need to swim out that far!

 

Test is 51, another LC snack and we'll test again in 15 minutes, can't bring myself to wait longer than that when he is low like this.

 

He just wants to hit all the colors in 24 hours. Last night was red. The only one we don't have is black. Don't even think about it, Timmy!

 

Yeah - no black! Does he usually nadir around the +5 to +7 mark?

 

That was a big drop and congrats on the reduction tonight! Looks like he nadirs sometime around +6 -7 so he might need a bit more than LC if the next number is coming up for you. He is responding nicely to the ProZinc.

 

Test is 64 at +6. I'm going to give another snack of LC food and test again in about 20 or so minutes.

 

Woo hoo! Exciting! You know what to do, Susan. Yes, down to 1.75 u tonight.

 

He is at 70 now. Holding food and will retest at +7, about 30 minutes. He should be okay, but I'll keep monitoring. Thank you @Tracey&Jones, @Bobbie And Bubba, @Kris & Teasel for hanging out with me during this. I know what to do, but it is so much easier when you're not alone.

 

I know how you feel!

 

That's a good thing there's no black. Did you rub some honey on his gums?

 

Woohooo! Go Timmy! (and well done on managing him!). Hooray for the reduction!

 

No, I was able to steer him with LC food, thank goodness!! I had my hypo kit out and ready just in case though. He is 137 now and sleeping in a sunbeam in the middle of the floor...completely oblivious to the morning events.

 

Yah! Go Timmy, Go Timmy!

High five Momma Bean!

 

Excellent!

 

Good job Mamma!

 

Susan, great job steering with LC food . Grats on your reduction, Timmy!
Remember, don't be surprised if he spends a little time on the trampoline tonight after that lime green. Stick with the reduced dose, numbers permitting

 

Susan, you did a great job today!!! Handled it like a pro!!

 

Susan, if after yesterday you just need a couple of more relaxed days, please ignore me....

But I'm wondering about having your AM and PM doses vary a bit? Timmy is still too high in the evening (last night was to be expected - I'm looking at his past week). That may be because he's getting such strong responses in the morning cycle that he's staying high at night - kind of like a mini-bounce every night. But I'm wondering if trying him at 2u in the evening and 1.75 during the day might even that out a bit? It may need to be even more than that at night, but I really don't like having the doses get too far apart from each other if we can help it.

Even if those evening cycles are mini-bounces, there is a school of thought that you shoot through the bounce - meaning that after a low like yesterday, you don't lower the dose until after the high flat cycle(s), since that higher cycle needs more insulin, not less insulin. That is another one of those strategies that does require a skilled bean to manage it, but you've shown yourself plenty capable if you want to consider it.

Again though, this is a more aggressive approach, and I wouldn't suggest it to everyone. It never hurts my feelings if you don't want to try it.

 

I had wonder the same thing as Djamila but she is able to explain it much better .

 

I was thinking last night that it's great that he earned a reduction, but how to get those preshot numbers lower? I'm willing to give it a try starting tonight. I'm wishing for yellow preshot numbers now, go figure.

 

The pre-shots should gradually come down as he becomes better regulated. But tell Timmy, that means BOTH cycles

 

Reductions are tricky.

Sometimes there are cycles that just run higher than normal. Sometimes there are cycles that run lower than normal. When the low cycles happen, we usually reduce, because safety matters - but sometimes it turns out that the low cycle was just an anomaly and not really that the dose was too high. Only way to know is to reduce, wait a few cycles, see what happens, and then either hold the reduction, or end up increasing again. Yong is right - the pre-shots should come down as he spends more time in the blues and greens, but it does take time. It's frequently said around here that our kitties didn't become diabetic overnight, and they won't heal overnight either. That's why we all have patience pants. And wine.

I love that you want yellow pre-shots now! Fingers crossed that you start to see more and more of them!

 

And we drink the wine while wearing the patience pants. They go great together!

 

Lol. Got it. Wine, check. Patience pants are on my list.

 

Here is my favorite pair - wine included

 

They are awesome!!

 

Timmy's PMPS is 165 after stalling for 30 minutes. I am stalling for another 30 minutes to see if he comes up more. I have no data at this number.... @Kris & Teasel, @Djamila, @Rachel, @Yong. I will post again in 30 minutes. I was just getting comfortable with yellows.

 

Well now....isn't that interesting?!

 

He is now 196 after stalling 1 hour. How much should I dose? Should I even dose?

 

Timmy has a history of being high at night, so I would hate to skip the dose altogether.

I think you could very safely shoot one unit if you're nervous about shooting a blue. You really don't have data on a low number, so better safe than sorry.

And if that makes you too nervous, you could skip it, but I would encourage you to get a mid-cycle even if you skip so you can see what he does on his own.

 

I agree that you could shoot 1 unit. That would be good data to have if you did since we would then know what he does on a blue. And remember this blue is almost a yellow.

 

I like the idea of giving 1 unit. Your ProZinc data book is growing!

 

I don't want to skip the dose. He is doing so well. I am going to give 1 unit and then freak out. I was so not expecting a blue preshot. Even though I am nervous about shooting a blue, I am so excited about his numbers today!!! He has never had a day with these low numbers through preshots.

 

Lol...I can relate to the shoot and then freak out! We all have those cycles. You're getting to be a pro at this though!

 

I like 1

 

Thank you all for your guidance tonight. I appreciate it so, so much!

 

Sorry I was not on earlier, Susan. Glad the others were here

 

I knew you'd enjoy this ProZinc group, Susan! Timmy is doing very well.

 

Yuck on that red. Well, I think we learned some important things about his low pre-shot number! At least during the PM cycle right now. Don't worry, he'll be back on track in no time!

 

Learning is so good. When I saw that red this morning, I was thinking that he might be stuck in the higher numbers today, but he surprised me with some blues. I haven't seen good greens in a couple of days, hoping he gets there soon, like tomorrow.

 

Timmy is now 118 at +3.5. I gave him a tsp of LC food just to try to slow him down a bit. I'll test again in 15 minutes and see. Hopefully he slows down. Geesh! I said I wanted greens...tomorrow!

 

He is now 91 at +4. I'm going to give a tsp LC food one more time, just to slow him down a bit more. He's been around this range at +4 during the day, first time at night.

 

Slooow down, Timmy. Take another reading in 20 mins, Susan =)
@Djamila
Not sure if that tag worked from my not so smart phone lol
Tagging her in case I fall asleep just to check on you guys.

 

Okay. Thank you. 20 minutes will be +5.

 

He's 79 at +5. He's holding. I'll keep monitoring for at least another hour or so to make sure he doesn't get to lime green. He was racing to those greens tonight. Maybe he is trying to make up for no greens over the past two days.

 

Woohoo! We have a PM green! Way to go, Timmy! And hang in there, mama bean! It's so exciting to see how well he's responding to prozinc! And Susan, you're doing such a great job of taking care of him!

 

Wow Timmy! Decided to head down that scale last night, huh?

You really ARE doing a great job Susan!!! He's super lucky to have you as a mama bean!

 

Wow! This is great progress!

 

Timmy listened to post #22 . This 1.75U is looking good!

 

Given last nights drop, I was thinking of giving 1.75 units tonight. We were doing 2 units at the PM dose to try to get his PM numbers down, but he dropped quicker than I would have liked last night. Thoughts?

 

Maybe a skinny 2u? (if it isn't too late)

His cycle last night is really what you're aiming for. It's hard to know if he would have gone too low without the LC food, or if he would have surfed safely. But you do kind of want those greens in the middle if you can get them. It does take some monitoring and nail biting though, so as always, if it's too stressful, it's okay to reduce.

 

Late here, but I think a skinny 2 would be all right too if you can monitor.

 

Skinny 2.0 it is. He is doing so well and I don't want to mess that up. I know what you mean about giving the LC food last night. Maybe he would have stayed in the greens without it. My gut says no, but he keeps surprising me.

 

Lol...they are full of surprises! And it's always okay to go with your gut. There's only so much we can know from across the internet. Sometimes our mama-sense is powerful - which is why we can share opinions, but the final decision is always up to the person holding the syringe.

 

Yep, sometimes you gotta listen to your gut!!!!

 

I'm calling it a fat 1.75 units. I probably need to think about getting different syringes so that I can fine tune it a bit better for future. Hopefully the slight reduction tonight wont break his stride.

 

*paws crossed*

 

Timmy's amps was 235. After stalling for 40 minutes he is now 229. He didn't come up at all. I can stall for another 20 minutes before I will have to dose him. What should that dose be? He keeps throwing me for a curve.

 

When you had a low pre-shot a couple of nights ago and reduced he went up -- so if it was me, I'd give the full dose (1.75) and then just monitor. If that makes you uncomfortable though, it's okay to reduce a little, but I wouldn't recommend reducing by very much since you have data that suggests he'll rise.

He is bouncing around right now, so it's harder to predict than it was a few days back. I do think he might have a more active cycle today since the past two have been flat. But it's also possible he isn't done with the flats. Oh, for a crystal ball....

 

You're doing fine, Susan. As I said before the only way to know what to do is to get data for these situations. It's hard on the nerves but you know how to steer him.

 

He is now at 258, so he is coming up. I gave him the full 1.75. I will monitor. I wish he would even out so my nerves could rest for a minute.

 

I'm glad I posted because my knee-jerk reaction from not having a lot of data in the yellows would have been too much of a reduction. Thank you for steering me in the right direction, and for the encouragement.

 

He's definitely keeping you on your toes!

 

Maybe the data from today will help ease your nerves! You see that he didn't got too low.

 

Nice easy cycle today! I think this shows us that even on the lower 200's, you're still safe holding the dose.

At some point, that will (hopefully!) change and we'll have to be more careful, but at this point in his journey he's giving you nice predictable numbers in the middle of his cycle.

 

It was a nice cycle, even without hitting the good greens. It did ease my nerves a bit and gave me a nice little break.

On one of the earlier posts you wrote that out kitties are more than a number. I wrote that on the front of his daily notebook. It makes me stop more and just spend time being with him and enjoying him, without testing. I just wanted to thank you for that reminder.

 

I gave 1.75 units tonight, which wasn't enough for his PM dose. I stalled for an hour to get to the 273. He was originally 240. I'm stalling a lot now at his preshot times, which is something I really want to stop doing.

 

You're so welcome Susan! I've needed that reminder in the past, so I like to pass it on to others when I see them heading to the same headspace I've been in!

Are you able to try to get a test in at +11 or so? I ask because you could do that as an alternative to stalling...test at +11 and then again at preshot time and it will help you see he's rising while not technically stalling...and you can move to not stalling over time then.

 

I'm glad you've had a couple of more relaxed cycles. And Rachel's reminder about looking beyond the numbers is an important one. You might even consider testing every two hours instead of every hour to give yourself some space to relax. Timmy is giving you some pretty consistent patterns at this point, and his big drop is usually between +3 and +4, so you could also just grab a +3.5 or +4, and then decide if you need the hours across the bottom of the cycle.

A couple of things I'm thinking from yesterday's cycles: it looks like 1) he prefers a little closer to 2u for the dose and 2) it's okay to shoot on those lower 200's.

I know that 2u gave you that lime green, so I can understand not wanting to go back there, but 1.75 doesn't look like it's quite enough. So maybe play around with a syringe and try to figure out something in between that you think you could draw consistently?

Rachel's idea to get a +11 might give some reassurance about the lower pre-shots. You've stalled enough to see that he's okay getting his full dose on those lower 200's. Remember that the no shot under 200 is when people are just starting out and don't have a lot of data or skill yet. Not that I'm saying to shoot on anything, but just that you can safely shoot on the numbers you've been getting without stalling. When you stall on one pre-shot, you're also more likely to be low on the next one because it hasn't been the full 12 hours yet, so it kind of creates a cycle of lows and stalls until you can get back on schedule.

As always though, taking care of our selves and our own stress levels is a very very important part of this journey, so please ignore any of this that raises your anxiety!

 

I agree completely. Last night's shot of 1.75 wasn't enough and I was kicking myself for not giving the 2 units. I love the idea of the +11 test, that will show me that he is rising. I got all out of whack with the stalling and it isn't showing a true picture. I gave the 1.75 units this morning and I'll start the +11 pretest tonight and give the 2 units for his PM dose. If he goes too low with the 2 units, I'll try a skinny 2. It is so nice to have a plan to get back on track. Thank you!

 

Just another something I have noticed with Maury and some other kitties. AM and PM cycles can behave differently so if I get a lower PMPS reading I'll only look at my previous PMPS readings at similar numbers and vice versus for AM . Might apply to Timmy as well.

 

Timmy's +7 and +8 are 410/403, I tested this twice thinking a wonky strip. Then at +8 it is 447. Any ideas what is happening? I'm sure he didn't get into any dog food contraband too.

 

Looks like a bounce to me if he didn't get into any contraband

 

A bounce from what though?!? Even if he dropped after the 186, he should have still been in familiar numbers. Contraband is certainly an option - even a lost couple of kibbles from under the sofa could do it. Or also a squirrel (some exciting distraction that gets them amped up). Sometimes they just give puzzling numbers.

 

Just a couple of weird numbers. It happens. Try not to get worried about them. It's the patterns over time you pay attention to, not individual numbers - unless they're lime green!

 

Just a guess. He bounced a little for AMPS from 183 even though that was >50% PMPS so may have gone below 151 after. 186 is definitely more than 50% drop from AMPS, possibly causing afternoon bounce.
But could also be dog food contraband from his secret stash or "look a squirrel" syndrome

 

Timmy's PMPS was 497. I gave 2 units. I have also spent the last hour, like a crazy woman, checking everywhere, under things, moving things, and vacuuming just to make totally sure there are no pieces of dog food contraband anywhere. I will try not to over think it too much, but it concerns me. On the plus side, the house is really clean.

 

Lol! Try not to drive yourself too crazy. If there even was anything, it's probably all gobbled up by now! And most likely it's what Kris said anyway -- just one of those things.

Hopefully his numbers will come back down soon!

 

That is odd! But yeah, there's no way to tell for sure what happened....my guess is it's a bit of "oh look a squirrel" syndrome lol. Like everyone said...this is just a few numbers. I wouldn't worry.

 

Hi Susan! I think you can move that AM dose back up to 2.0u if you feel comfortable with that.

 

I was going to post that question today. I wanted to get 6 solid cycles at the 1.75 am and 2 pm. Do you think that his numbers over the past couple of days was a bounce? His numbers are confusing me now. Maybe that lime green 9 days ago was just a fluke and I should have held the dose longer. Shoulda, woulda, coulda, where is that crystal ball? I'll start 2 units with the am dose.

 

Right? If only we could find it!!!

That's how this whole thing works: try something, see what happens, try something else....and on and on. It does look like the lime green might have just been one of those things, but the only way to know is to do what you did. Lower and watch and then raise again. You're doing great, it's just part of the process.

 

Yep, it's hard to tell. I'd say raise the dose and see what happens!

 

Timmy gave me 193 @ +11. He came up to 278 at shot time and I gave 2 units. That +11 is very helpful in giving me confidence to dose the yellow. I am, however, second guessing myself with the 2 units. I will be monitoring, of course, but was that the correct dose for 278? The closest time he was 273 and I gave 1.75.

 

The 273 and 278 are basically in the same range. I think he will be fine with the two units. You are a very diligent mamma and know what to do if he should drop a little low. Smoky did the same thing when he started on prozinc. His BG went up a bit at +2 and then started going down again by +4

 

Thank you so much, Lisa. I was a bit apprehensive.

 

How are you and Timmie today? How did he do last night with the two units?

 

Whoa. What was THAT?!?!?

 

I know! I have no idea. I did have to dose almost an hour late last night, stuck in traffic, and he was in the high yellows. Maybe he went lower yesterday afternoon. That was my thinking on doing the curve today. Ugh!

 

Maybe he sneaks to the market while you're gone and eats all the kibble?

 

With his numbers today, it had to have been kibble smothered in gravy and honey and jelly beans and...

 

Lol!

Alright Timmy, settle down now! Bring those numbers back to reasonable levels please!

 

Looks like Timmy is in a busy bounce phase. Just keep doing what you're doing. Bouncy cats make it very challenging to assess a dose's effectiveness so with Teasel I paid a lot of attention to the lows I got on the less bouncy days to decide on dosing. I always gave the same dose AM and PM unless numbers warranted a tweak so I don't have much to offer on dosing differently AM and PM.

 

I increased Timmy's am dose back to 2 units so that am and pm are the same. Kind of a reset. I am going to have to keep everything extremely consistent with no sudden changes. He felt just awful yesterday with those high numbers. He was doing really well before that lime green reduction. I have to get him back there.

 

I like this plan, Susan. I'm a big fan of consistency for bouncy cats. If he throws you another lime green you know what to do. Don't worry that he's going nowhere on ProZinc. I think you've seen positive effects. It's just that bouncy cats are very hard to deal with. A wise person on another forum said to me that it's less about the insulin and more about the cat.

 

Okay. So he went hypo at 39. I'm still steering him. So 2 units is out now. I'm going to reduce his dose to 1.75 units am and pm. Did I miss his perfect dose? Should I reduce more? Over the past two days we have had both ends of the spectrum. Leaves me feeling a bit inept.

Just tested and he is back up to 64 now. Still monitoring just to be sure.

 

Well son of a gun, Timmy!! I've had this happen with Teasel occasionally. You could try a skinny 2 u - up to the 2 u line and then a little past it so it's less than 2u but not quite as low as 1.75 u. Even if it's not totally accurate, aim for consistency.

Try not to get discouraged, Susan. You've been blessed with a tricky kitty but you'll find "work arounds" that might not be ideal but will get his numbers down and keep him safe.

 

Before I got to Kris' reply I was thinking you may want to try those finicky doses between 1.75U and 2.0U too .

 

Well all right then Timmy! I know it makes you feel bad, Susan, but really, you're doing extremely well with a tricky kitty...there's no way anyone could foretell that hypo today, so don't let it get you down.