Thumper 5/8

Happy Mothers Day!

AMPS was 271 I didn't know what to do so just stuck with the .5 I also checked Ketones this am & it looked like it might be leaning towards that 1st pink indicating a trace amt. I will check again as soon as I can catch her in the litter box. At which reading do you have to be concerned about Ketones? Robin & Sue, I saw your post on yesterdays thread. I'm fine with trying to go back to .4 but don't understand at all why I started getting those higher BG's & they have stayed that way. I'm leaving town on the 18th for 5 days & leaving her in the care of my husband.....he doesn't pay as much attention so I'm starting to worry about that.

 

I just read your post again Robin. What do you mean check again for a rising # ?

 

I wouldn't mess with the ketones, if you get another trace ketone I would get her in to the vet tomorrow. Are you adding water to her food and mixing it in? That can help.

When a kitty gets too much insulin their bg's drop low and their liver dumps sugar to protect itself from a preceived hypo which sends their bg's higher. Our instincts tell us to shoot more insulin into the higher numbers but that starts a visious cycle of high bg's. Instead we need to lower the dose when we see the tell tale signs of rebound.

 

Here's some info on rebound: Rebound

I would test again today for ketones. The easiest way to figure out if you have a trace is to compare an unused strip with your test strip. Ketones are something to be very wary of: ketones

 

Ok, I'm gonna get a +4 and +6 but I will plan on dropping to .4 for tonight's shot.

I do add water to their food. I guess I need to go read up on ketones, I have no idea....

 

Little pep talk, Barbara. Yes, you keep getting more info thrown at you and it seems overwhelming. BUT that is because you are treating her disease. There are hundreds of kitties this morning who are getting blind shots of insulin and may hypo this afternoon, who may have to go to the ER this afternoon because their owners have no idea what they are dealing with.

I have a dear friend whose kitty was diabetic when Oliver was diagnosed. She fed dry food and shot blindly. I tried to tell her about testing and wet lo carb, but she stuck with her vet's advice. The month Oliver got off the juice, her kitty died. He just wasted away. She misses him to this day and talks about him all the time.

 

Thanks Sue, I know I'm glad I found this board to help me....my vet recommended a website with information about home testing but she didn't know exactly what it was so I did some searching & found FDMB!

Just read about ketones....now I'm wondering if I should be increasing the dose?

+4 - 291

 

AND, now that I read about Rebound again I don't know and we are back in the yellows. I wish I could MAKE her go pee so I could check again. She seems to be her normal self.

 

If ketones are trace, I would increase the dose. The problem with flat curves is it's hard to know if it's b/c the dose is too low or too high. There is some evidence w/Thumper that something around 0.25 or 0.3 was a good dose a few days ago, but it hasn't been consistent. And then you have some wonky curves like the all pink one a couple days ago that, combined with the better #s on the lower dose, looks like maybe the current dose is too high.

If it is ketones then, that trumps everything else and you need more insulin and a trip to the vet. Ketones come from too little insulin (not high #s per se) combined with either not eating well and/or infection. (Did I remember everything?)

Since you have not seen any remotely low #s lately, I would be inclined to increase the dose and monitor every cycle for unexpected lows. Meaning, spot check around +3 or +4 to check for a big drop. Unless you get something like a blue PS tonight after an all-yellow cycle, that would be a pretty clear indicator the dose is too high.

Hopefully she will pee again for you soon! Sometimes it can look like trace and be an illusion. I think it's supposed to kind of jump out at you & be unmistakeable, but I've never seen one positive so I'm only going on what I've read.

 

Hi Barbara,

Joanna is right-- the pink for trace ketones will jump out at you. When I test Kitty, I do a control test under pure water and compare the two. It will be obvious if it is pink.

If you determine Thumper does have trace ketones--- to the vet it is!

I am Hoping the Sub Qs Kitty is getting will help ward off Ketones.

Good Luck!

Kim

 

I missed the +6 since we went to my mothers but her +8 is 293. I did another ketone test and it almost looks like to me it's between the negative & trace. I just did one on my civvie & it kinda looks the same as Thumpers. I'm leaning towards it being nothing since it's not jumping out at me but I will check again when I can. Hopefully I will see her get up & will follow her around. lol She is eating well, actually a few times she has finished what the others have left. She thinks I'm nuts cause I was trying to smell her breath but I don't smell anything except cat food. I don't mind taking her to the vet tomorrow, even if it is a false alarm. What do they do? Test the urine themselves & go from there? I would rather be safe than sorry. The dose for tonight is the mystery right now.

 

Sorry I just saw your question about testing a rising number.

Last nights PMPS was your lowest bg of the day, you don't know if she was still dropping or rising so to test for a rising number you would test and test again 20 minutes later to make sure she is going up. If she is still dropping you wouldn't want to give the insulin.

Wern't you doing that early on when we wern't sure?

 

If we were sure there are no ketones, I would lower the dose, do the testing and see if it makes the difference. It does seem like you got better numbers with lower doses. But I would want to make sure you have no ketones......

How about another ketone test? How about taking a sample from Thumper and then take a clean strip and pee on it yourself. Compare the two.

 

Hopefully someone is here. I did a recheck like Robin suggested. I was doing those when I was getting PS #'s too low to shoot but hadn't been since the #'s were higher.

AMPS - 270 20 mins later it's 276

She hasn't been to pee again....I put her in the litter box several times & she looks at me like she thinks I'm nuts then leaves. Sue, did you see I had checked a second time but still not sure what I'm seeing....it's not totally clear to me. I don't mind at all taking her to the vet tomorrow, what would they do? Is it just a urine test there?

What should I shoot?

 

I was running out of time so I went ahead & shot .6 I don't know why but I keep feeling like she's needing more insulin, that's probably just my ignorance talking. I will get some tests in tonight and see if I can catch her again in the litter box. As far as the ketones...should I just go ahead & take her in tomorrow? What do they do to test there? I would rather have them test her cause I don't trust myself.

 

Sorry -didn't get here in time. .6 won't hurt. I do think you probably need to go down, but with the possibility of ketones, we want to play it safe. I would probably take her in tomorrow and have the vet check for sure. I don't know - haven't had to have that done- but they will probably get a sample and test it. The nice thing is that they may be able to show you just what to look for on the strip, if you take them along and ask. (I imagine they don't use ketostix, but maybe they will know what it should look like.)

 

I don't know if this is the page I have shared, but it does have the graph over on the right that shows the colors. http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Ketoacidosis

 

Thanks Sue, you don't need to apologize! As I'm reading this page you sent she doesn't have any of the signs. It just does seem to be a little different color than when I have tested before. I just really hope one of the vets I like are there tomorrow, hopefully the one that diagnosed her!

 

I'm glad you'll be taking her in tomorrow so you will know for sure.

 

I think the vets would do a blood test to check for them. If your gut is to increase the dose you may be right, you should trust your instincts! You could be picking up on subtle signs from her if she is not feeling as well or her symptoms are slightly worse. With Bix I could often see a worsening in his symptoms before I saw it in the numbers.

 

Caught her in the litter box & it is reading towards the pink trace. I ran one in plain water at the same time & had my husband & daughter check also. We all agree it's not all the way to the pinkish trace color but not negative either. So off to the vet we go in the morning. I am planning on still shooting the .6 & feeding her before we go. Should I do anything different? I think I will just have them keep her to run a curve & take my meter to compare with theirs. I know they will get higher readings & last time she was there she wouldn't eat all day so I'm gonna take a can of FF with me. Any other suggestions?

 

I would test your meter with theirs on the same sample of blood. The curve won't tell you much because you won't know how much to discount the numbers for stress.

 

Good grief...just got a +4 and it reads 92..........what the heck? I'm checking again in about 1/2 hr.

 

Well, that is a nice number. Remember you don't worry unless you are down in the 50s. Let's see what you get next.

 

Sue,I hope you're still on. I checked again....I was thinking this was some kind of a fluke but now I get 89 we are at +4.5. Any idea what the heck this might mean?

 

Just means he is surfing along. It is good that he isn't getting a huge drop. I won't be up a whole lot longer. Do you know the routine if you get below 50?

 

Sorry, Thumper, SHE, not he!

 

Sort of....she is eating some LC food right now, which is 2 carbs, I have some 6 carb if she gets much lower I will pull that out. I also have 18 carb but will save that for if she does go below 50? I also have honey and the hypo sheets which I'm getting ready to read again. I just really don't understand why she's been so high now all of a sudden she's dropped so low from a 276 PS? And should I still take her to the vet tomorrow? What does this mean in regards to ketones? confused_cat

 

I would think it would help the ketones. She has reacted well to the insulin from the beginning. You are giving tiny doses and they are having good impact.

If you get to 50, give some of the higher carb (18). That may keep her steady. Test every 15 minutes. If she continues down, put some honey on her gums. At that point, I would definitely be on Health and see if anyone is on. If she would dip below 40 or is having any kind of symptoms, go to the vet. Have someone drive you and take the honey and put it on her gums.

I am telling you the scary part because I figure if I do that, you will never have to use it. I am guessing she will be okay. You are only 2 hours away from nadir and she is holding steady.

I will see if Lori is around. She is on the west coast and often stays up late and may be able to stay up with you.

 

Ok, thanks! I think I will be ok....now tomorrow at work might be a different story on no sleep! :YMSIGH:

 

Don't panic. And don't drag out the 18% carbs on a 50. It's a steep drop but you don't want to over compensate by driving up her bg's with extra carbs. Let her bounce if she does and ride it out. Go with the 6% carbs first and test to see if that brings her up enough.

I did an experiment with Harley this weekend and he hit a 53, I brought him up by feeding a 3% carb meal. He brought himself up nicely.

 

Will you be around Robin? I didn't want to leave her alone so I figured the 18% carbs would keep Thumper safe and Barbara less worried. Can you check Callie also? She is at 126 at +4. Busy night and unfortunately, I can't stick around.

 

I can stick around for another 30 minutes or so, it's almost midnight here.

 

It's ok Sue, thanks for checking though! I'm just confused why she's going so low after all this time being so high.

 

Her liver can't keep up and the insulin is overpowering it. If she doesn't have ketones tomorrow you should lower her dose. If she does than we make another plan.

 

Stick with the plan to take her to the vet then?

 

Yes, we want to make sure she doesn't have any ketones.

 

Hey Barbara, Would it be ok to say...NICE! This is a breakthru to a looking good curve? The number seems to be holding. It's a very pretty number.
And If you want I will be here as I am west coast. only 9:30 here.
Don't want to intrude but got a pm from sue oliver saying you were doing this tonight....
I'm just here is all ok?
Lori
and Lord Thomas.

 

Hi Lori, so far so good. Just got a 88 & it's been an hour since I got the 89. She will be @ +6 in about 20 mins so I will test again then. She had a snack after the 89, about 20 mins or so before the 88. Thanks for checking on us! I will be back in about 20 mins to post if you're still around. Boy, I wish it was only 9:30 here!

 

Goodnight.

 

Ya know if you have'nt fed any medium or high carb...this is the kind of cycle you WANT to see. It's beautiful.
Lets see how it plays out.
I just got home and will leave the computor on as I prepare for the evening and I'll keep checking ok.
And thank you for trusting me with your kitties life.... I won't play fast and loose with Thumper...I promise you.
Lori
and Lord Thomas.

 

Goodnight Robin & Thanks! Tune in tomorrow for Thumpers latest adventures! She really likes to test me! I'm old & need my sleep. And don't you know my supervisor is not in tomorrow & I'm the next in line....ugh. So...that means I can't be late...will have to be at the vet at 7:00 am, will prob have no choice but to leave her, possibly for the whole day.

 

Hi Barbara.
I'm no help. Too new at this myself, just wanted to pop in and say I'm here for support if you need it.
I was keeping an eye on my baby's #'s tonight to. Now that my stress level has returned to normal, I feel it's my duty to at least hang around. These ladies on here are absolutely awesome, are they not?!
Anyway, just wanted you to know there is someone else lurking about with you.
I'm waiting on those #'s with baited breath!b :mrgreen:

 

Callie Mae's Mom, Are you ok now...with CM? That is amazing with the dose change I must say.

 

Hi totallybeachin I saw you had some low #'s tonight also, glad all is well with you! Her +6 is staying at 88. I don't know if I need to keep checking or not? I would like to try to get some sleep but don't want to leave her if I shouldn't.

 

Yes. Thanks. we are both happy campers!!!
Her numbers have never been better. And to think, the vet thinks I'll be calling him Wed. to report my numbers based on 9U!!! Wait till he hears she on only 1 possibly less than that by Wed. :mrgreen:

 

I always find it sad when we know better than the vet...don't you? I want the vet to be smarter than me!

 

Lori, should I keep checking on her?

 

I guess in the broad scheme of things, they're not really low, but considering she was on 9U just 2 days ago and has never had numbers that low, it's just a little scary. But, these fine expert folks here sure know what they're talking about!!!
Wish I had some advice for you.
Personally, those numbers would scare me, but I think tha is right around where you want to be.

 

Yes, but I know they are low for you! And you are right the lower #'s are what you want but are scary! I've been a nervous wreck more than once, but lately her #'s have been high & these low #'s came as quite a shock tonight.....out of no where!

 

it's really true..that is where you want to be. where did the idea ever come from that 80 at nadir is not where you wanna be. if you got there every day you would be the envy of all.
you have trace ketones?
one time test?
has thumper ever had dka?

 

I hope you don't get bad news about ketones. I don't know what that is. I bought test strips and I checked, but I think I will find the link someone posted for you about it and do a little light reading. I'll still be lingering though.

 

No she has never had DKA, the trace ketones just showed up today and that is another reason I was totally shocked to see that 92 at +4. I don't get it. I tested her ketones about 3 times today cause I wasn't really sure I was seeing it right. The last time I ran one under tap water & had my hubby & daughter look at it with me. We all agreed it looked like it was more trace than negative.

 

Just to clarify that....I had one from her pee & ran one under tap water & compared.

 

i'm not sure that is an emergency. barely trace. but it is very good that thumper chose tonight to lower herself. are you comfortable with her number now? is she still stable?

 

i think you'd have better gauge on that if you compared it to your 'pee' than to tap water...kwim?

 

She seems to be fine...sleeping on the couch after I drug her out of my daughters bed the last time. My civvie keeps pestering me to go to bed....now he's playing in the dishwasher. :lol: So do you think she would be ok to leave at this point?

 

I have to ask since I've seen several people post it, what kind of cat is a civvie? :?

 

barbara,,,i really think your in good shape. i think it's been an excellent night for you. a nice drop...purrfect/
and beach...LOL. a civvie is a kitty in the house who is not fighting the dire beasties. :lol:

 

One that doesn't have diabetes. I think there is a glossary on the Health page.

 

do you really have to go to the vet tomorow. for barely trace ketones on a kitty never in dka?
just don't want to wear you out or stress you for a fairly benign reading.

 

Of course!!!
Don't I feel silly?
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

well, i'm turning in.
Night all. It's been a wild ride!

 

barbara, i read thru the thread and noticed you asked a few times why the sudden green>?
it's normal for a kitty to get better in time. it's desired. the dose was right, the time was right. and things change.
what worked last week may not be appropriate this week..kwim?

 

Ok, I'm out...Petey just gave up & is now knitting a spot on the other couch from Thumper....but he is staring at her. Wow, just got a scare...he got up & ran over to her so I checked again, she's at 91 so I'm def. going to bed! He probably knows it's her keeping me up & he wants me to go to bed cause he sleeps with me. :lol: Thanks so much for staying with me, both of you!

 

ni ni :mrgreen:

 

I was surprised by that sudden green....just cause she's stayed so high this week. I was really thinking she was needing a higher dose, just my lack of experience I guess! I think I will take her in....would probably make me feel better. Thanks again!

 

you guessed right...you will NOT overdose your kitty. I know you won't.

 

you know...fwiw, she could go 20 or 30 points lower and she would still be ok.... you might not be ;-) but she would.

 

Barbara, it often works that way with the sudden breakthrough. It seems like they can get sort of a glass floor with the higher #s, and it takes a little extra insulin to break down through it - when you get the breakthrough it can be quite sudden and dramatic like that. The trick is to get the breakthroughs w/o overdoing it, and then not overreduce and lose the good #s, while at the same time not overdoing it.

You may find after this that a dose like 0.5 works perfectly, when before it wasn't working. It's all a big mystery, but we see these kinds of patterns a lot. That's one reason we sometimes argue over things :mrgreen: since the results can be so dramatic we tend towards caution a lot of the time. But if you are too cautious sometimes you never see the breakthroughs, so it's kind of a tightrope act. Thankfully Thumper's doses are quite low so there's less of a nailbite_smile factor over actual hypo.

Hope they find 0 ketones at the vets. Ketones be gone!!! :evil: