uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help needed

Hi, My cat has recently been diagnosed dibetic (3 months or so) her blood tests show insulin doses are now ok, but the thing is she's still eating a lot (fish and whiskas supermeat, whatever supermeat is?) The worrying thing is, her drinking
and need to lie over water all the time. this hasnt changed since her diagnosis. she's also got a bloated stomache (due to all the water she drinks i presume), she's losing fur from her spine and has a skeletal frame. A lot to help me with i know, but any suggestions will be gratefully accepted.

Thanks, Darren

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Do you test her BG at home every day?
And when was her last complete blood test?

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Hi Kimouette, no, dont do the BG test, im in england and the vets here never even mentioned that as an option. The last time she was test was about 4 weeks ago, due in again this week. next to useless, showed me how to
do injection and sent me on my way. Last time they said the kelotine (think thats the name) levels were fine.

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Hi titi's SS. dont know how bad this is, but my cat is on 4 units morning and 3 units evening of caninsulin. i need to get this amount down and get her on a correct diet. The thing is, trying to understand the carb, fat and glucose puzzle. its like the da vinci code to a laymen (ignorant) like me.

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

BG levels vary everyday, every hour and this is why most of us here test our cat's BG.
I live in Switzerland and not only vets dont talk about home testing but some of them even try to convice us cat owners not to do that under any ciscumstance! That's completely crazy! After I read many posts here I finally understood that home testing is THE ONLY way to know exactly what is happening to my kitty. It's also the only way to make sure you are not giving too little or too much insulin every day.

Now that your cat doesn't seem well you have too options : go to the vet as soon as possible and ask the vet (and pay the fee) to get your cat's BG levels tested, or go to the closest drugstore and get one of these human glucometer. I personally have a Bayer Contour kit, it costs about 30$ for a complete kit with 10 strips and lancets.

With everything you mentioned about your cat, and especially the fact that she drinks a lot, she is probably hyperglycemic most of the time, so an insulin dose adjustment is probable necessery, but first you have to know her BG levels.

Here's a document explaining a lot about feline diabetes and the way to manage it:
http://www.catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

Also, make sure you are feeding your cat with a low carb wet food. Here's an important link for Europeans looking for good quality low carb food :
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=64843#p739079

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Hi Kimouette, sorry to sound dumb, but this is all new to me. how does the BG test tell me which way to go with the insulin units? and if she's hyperglycemic is that a seperate condition related to her diet or insulin intake? its a baffling illness to understand. i need to read up on it i think, any good literature you can think of, let me know. Thanks, and all the best.

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Hyperglycemic is just a fancy way of saying High Blood Sugar or Diabetic.

Perhaps a quick lesson in what insulin is and how it works in the body will help you make sense of this disease.

Insulin is a hormone that the pancreas produces that allows the food that the cat eats to be by the body's cells as food. All food is broken down into carbs which are basically sugars. If the body isn't producing enough of its own insulin the cells in the body can't use those carbs so they just keep floating around in the blood stream until they are eventually filtered out by the kidneys and released into the urine.

Insulin is kind of like the key that opens up the lock on the cells of our bodies so we can use the food we eat. Which is why when either a human or a cat becomes diabetic they eat like horses and still loose weight, because they aren't processing the food they are taking in correctly.

A low carb diet makes it easier on the body to produce enough insulin to process those carbs as food.. if it still doesn't produce enough of its own insulin then we give extra insulin through injections.

Does that help make some sense out of all this confusion?

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Hi Mommaofmuse, yes, thats brought me out of the darkness a little bit more. so a low carb diet and regular BG tests (once daily?) should help stabalise the hyperglycemia, stop the drinking of water and hopefully help with the weight loss. One more question, a quick one. how do i read the BG and know which way to go with insulin/units etc?

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Dear Darren,
Please go back to your first post, click "edit" and change the title to perhaps something like "UK- skeletal cat on caninsulin 3 mos .-urgent help" This might help get more eyes on you post. Caninsulin is NOT a good insulin for cats though I realize that in the UK it's difficult to get another insulin prescribed. I need to get off the internet, but I know more experienced, and even UK based, users will be along and help you. If possible, ask for a cook book help approach: #1 do this, #2 do that, etc.

Best wishes to you and good health vibes to your sweet kitty.

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

thanks sophie, will try that. it does look like im posting advice on diet with the header i put on my 1st post.

 

Re: diabetes and the right diet

Well that kind of depends on the insulin being used....some like Lantus or Levemir build up a shed (kind of a time released thing) and require a little more testing, usually at least 3-4 times a day and are the only two insulins I am familiar with.

But it is kind of a balancing act...which we affectionatelly call the SugarDance. Every cat does their dance slightly different, while the steps are pretty much the same, each cat adds their own flair to it. But see the problem is they are the only ones that can hear the music they dance to. so we use testing to get a clue what the next step is. Normally we start at a nice low dose of insulin like either 0.5u to 1u twice a day given 12 hours apart, we test right before the shot to make sure their numbers are high enough to safely give that insulin and then do spot check tests when we can during the period between once shot to the next which is what you will see referred to as a cycle. there are 2 cycles per day. Then when we have a free day we test every 2 hours and that is called a curve, because ideally it should look like a smile higher on both ends and lower in the middle. It is that lowest point in the curve that the two insulins I am familiar with bases it dose adjustments on. If the lowest point is still to high then we increase the dose slightly between 0.25u to 0.5u depending on that number. If we get a very low number anywhere in the cycle we decrease the dose slightly.

There are even some cats like my Maxwell that only needed a few shots of insulin and his diet changed to low carb before he went completely off insulin. He is now controlled completely by diet, then there are others like my Musette who is insulin dependent and probably will be for life, but that's okay the tests and shots are easy to do and she is still a healthy happy little girl who is just like any of my other kitties (I have 13) except that she takes shots twice a day.

Once you find the balance point between diet and insulin, yes the peeing and eating will go back to normal, the weight will come back on and if someone didn't know your cat was diabetic they will never be able to guess that they were. They will once again run, jump and play just like they did before they became diabetic.

The little girl in my avatar is Musette when she first came to my home she was a walking pile of bones and only weighed 6lbs...today she is the girl you see in that picture and weighs 9lbs which is perfect for her petite size.

Mel< Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Mommaofmuse, thats what im hoping for, just a little bit of my old cat back would be a blessing, instead of the food and water addicted lethargic cat this has turned her into. I'm trully grateful for the help you guys have given me in the last couple of hours, its helped having the situation explained to me in simple terms. thanks, and i will be asking your advice in the not too distant future.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Darren,

Just to take this a step further - There are three key factors to managing diabetes: food/nutrition, home testing and insulin

1) Feline Nutrition: Now, as far as diet - definitely dump the dry food (if you are feeding any) and if the vet recommends purchasing prescription food like DM just say "no thank you". ALL cats, and especially those with diabetes, do best on a species appropriate diet that is high in protein and low in carbs. Dry food DOES NOT fit that bill and DM food, even canned, just really isn't that great as far as quality. Most here on FDMB feed low carb/high protein canned, raw bought from a pet store or they make there own.

Here great links, one is to a food chart put together by one of our board members that breaks down the carb % and protein % of most of the commercial brand foods. You want to keep the carb % below 10% and around 7% is great. The other link is to a site by a vet "Dr. Lisa DVM" ... who also posts on this board from time to time ... there is in-depth info. there about many things, including nutrition and how to make raw food.
Nutrition/food info

The good thing with feeding your diabetic cat this way, is that it is ALSO good for any non-diabetic cat too. All your cats can safely eat the same food without worry and it may save you some costs and headaches of having to do separate feedings and keeping track of what they are eating.


2. Home testing: It is impossible to convey the value of testing your cat's BG (blood glucose) level at home. Some vets will "suggest" this, but most won't even mention it. They will send you home with insulin and an amount to shoot and maybe some instructions about hypoglycemia (blood sugar dropping to a dangerously low level).

Well, the thing is, human diabetics don't EVER give themselves insulin without checking there BG to make sure it is safe to do so, so why shouldn't it be the same for our kitties. Here on FDMB it is. You will notice that the vast majority of people here test their cat's BG at least 2x/day (before giving each shot to make sure the level is safe enough) and periodically at other times to see how the cat is responding to the current dose. We use a human glucometer, test strips and lancets - which are all very readily available and easy to use.

Our kitties get lots of love and treats for "putting up" with this and most of them actually come out to be tested on their own 'cause they want those treats . Here is a collection of great links that "Carolyn and Spot" pulled together about hometesting. See what you think ... it truly is the best way to not only keep Your cat safe but also really get a handle on this disease and help him to live a healthy life with FD (feline diabetes).

Home testing Links

3. Insulin: There are several types of insulin available. Many people, myself included use Lantus or Levimer both of which are great insulins. They are gentle insulin and given twice (BID) per day in 12 hour increments. Or you could also choose PZI or the new version called Prozinc.

Please read up on the insulins available, here is a link to the Insulin Support Groups:

Insulin Support Groups

However, one caveat and again this shows how these three things are inter-related:

If you are feeding dry food or even a high carb food, BEFORE removing these foods, please make sure of your insulin dose as it will most likely need to be reduced, so as to avoid a possible hypoglycemic situation due to the removal of the dry/high carb foods that will lower the BG’s and reduce the amount of insulin required. Again, another reason why home testing is important.

I know this all seems like a lot, and that's because it is ... there is a learning curve here. But as long as you are determined and keep at it, you will have it down before you know it and you'll be seeing the results in Your cat's overall health and happiness. Ask all the questions you can think of - that's why we are here!

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Darren and your sugar baby


There are members from UK here, that might be able to help you with were you find home testing human glucose meters in UK.

I live in Sweden and those are only available fairly inexpensive on the pharmacies here, but no need for prescription. I and Simba personally use a Bayer Contour.

Here is a Guide to Glucose meters in UK http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes_care ... guide.html

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi darren i completely understand what u are going through as am in nearly the same situation i too am in the uk, near portsmouth to b precise. My cat was diagnosed about 6 weeks ago and has been hospitalised three times now while we try to get his doseage right. He too has lost alot of weight and is skin and bones with rounded tummy as well as wobbly legs which apparently all classic symptoms of a diabetic cat. How many units does ur cat hav a day? Mine has just gone up to 2.5 units twice a day. How long did it take to stabilise ur kitty? Ive been told that once the levels are right then he should put on weight/ stop drinking / eating everything constantly. Are u sure the levels for ur kitty are right?

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi, my cat Fritz has been on Caninsulin for 8 years now. I dosed him without testing (dose based on fructosamine test done twice a year). Recently found myself dealing with a very sick kitty and THNAK GOD I found this site.

The vet had me giving Fritz 10 units 1x daily, knew he was on dry food and never mentioned home testing. Thanks to this site, my boy is 16 and doing well. He is know controlled with 1 unit 2x day and is on a strict low carb wet diet.

I know some people here don't recomend Caninsulin, but it has worked well for us. Every cat is different.

If I had of been armed with the information I have gained from this forum back when he was diagnosed, I am positive my cat would have been off insulin.

My point is, HOME TEST, get off the dry food, and start low with the insulin (.5 - 1 unit to start) check your cat often and give each dose a couple days before changing it.

Fritz is a completely different cat now and i owe it all to the amazing souls here on FMDB!

Good luck and you can do it

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Beckyandwinston. She's on 4u morning and 3u evening, which going off other doses im hearing about seems quite high. and she still has wobbly legs. It took about 9 months and a change of vets to finally get her diagnosed correctly. i kept being told her weight was still the same so she's fine, even tho i explained thats because she's eating 15 times a day, im no vet and even i knew that wasnt right. So im wondering if the high dosage is due to the length it took to diagnose the condition.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Fritz's mom. Thats my intention now. to get a good low carb wet food sorted and the home testing kit bought, before back on here for a shedload of advice on panic control for humans, while treating a diabetic cat. and i agree with you re this site. Angels show themselves in many forms.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Here's a great guide to Caninsulin (lente): http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=302

However, there are several reasons why I would recommend asking your vet to switch to Lantus (glargine) or Levemir (detemir) instead of sticking with Caninsulin. (Prozinc is difficult to get the UK.)

1. Caninsulin works well in dogs, but it doesn't work well for cats because their metabolisms are about twice as fast as dogs or humans so each shot only lasts about 4-8 hours. Even if you are shooting twice a day, the Caninsulin is not working to lower blood glucose levels the entire time. Lantus and Levemir are long acting insulins that last 24 hrs in dogs or humans, so each injection will last a full 12 hours in cats.

2. Lantus and Levemir are much safer to give than Caninsulin. Hypoglycemia (dangerously low blood sugar) happens more frequently with Caninsulin than the longer acting insulins because it causes very sharp drops in cats. Also, because it doesn't offer very good control of blood sugar, most vets tend to overdose it in an effort to bring blood sugar down. Too much insulin will keep blood sugar just as high as too little insulin, which is why it's very important to hometest daily so you have a true picture of how the insulin is working in your cat. Hypoglycemia can be deadly in an instant--even if a cat has been on the same high dose for some time with high blood sugar. It's also very important that when you change the diet to low carb canned food, you must drop the dose down significantly regardless of insulin type because it can cause a deadly hypoglycemic incident. We usually recommend dropping down to 1u.

3. Lantus and Levemir have a proven 84% remission rate for cats that start treatment within 6 months of diagnosis, together with home testing and a low carb, canned diet. The sooner you switch insulins, the better are your chances of remission (remission is when a diabetic cat no longer needs insulin, and blood sugar levels can be controlled by diet alone). Caninsulin has less than a 25% chance of remission, and most cats that reach remission on it would have gone into remission regardless of insulin type because they were changed to a low carb, canned diet.

I've attached a couple articles for you to print out and show your vet to help you convince them to give you a script for one of these insulins. If your vet refuses to change insulins despite the research, I would try and find a vet that will accept the research and work with you.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren

I don't know if you have seen this yet or not but it seems to have quite a bit of useful information on how your particular insulin works. http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=302

As far as lenght of time before diagnoises and dose...nope no correlation ...most cats are diabetic long before we silly humans pick up on and even when we do a lot of times treatment isn't started immediately. My Musette was diagnoised back in March of last year, she didn't start receiving proper treatment until I adopted her in late June of last year, she still hasn't gone above 1u of insulin twice a day. I'm also in the process of adopting my 3rd diabetic that hasn't been being treated for 7 months, I will also be starting her on .5u of Lantus when she gets here and go from there. It is much easier to raise the dose if it isn't enough than get it back out of the cat once it has been injected.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Thanks Hillary & maui, Will heed your advice with the dry food, after coming on here last night, i removed it, this morning i put it back. Its difficult to know what to do and where to start, and has im only on 4week vet visits at the moment im going to leave things has they are until i get the home testing underway. At the vets tomorrow (friday) so will be asking about other types of insulin availible. Thanks for all the advice and links you posted, its nice to know there are people able and willing to help, i've felt a bit isolated and in need of answers for quite a while now and finding this site has been an absolute god send.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

ATTENTION: SAFETY NOTES

1) Because you are already giving insulin, learn to home test before changing anything else. This is so you can make any other changes SAFELY.

2) AFTER you learn to home test, begin changing food. Decreased carbohydrate levels in food may greatly change the insulin dose. Without tests to show this, you may give too much insulin and send your cat into hypoglycemia (very low blood glucose). This could kill your cat.

3) Once the food changes are stable, use your testing data to help guide adjustment of the insulin doses.

We recommend the use of gentle, long acting insulins such as Lantus, Levemir, ProZinc, and PZI for cats.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

This is a condition called diabetic neuropathy. This is reversible once you get blood sugar levels under control. There is also a dietary supplement called Methylcobalamin
B-12 that you can pick up at any vitamin store that works wonders healing neuropathy. Here is some more information: http://laurieulrich.com/jasper/. The recommended dose is 3000-5000 mcg a day. Since you can't overdose Methyl B-12 (cats just pee out the excess), getting the 5000 mcg capsules at the vitamin/drug store and mixing the contents of 1 capsule with canned food a day is a good start.

There is no correlation between how long a cat has had diabetes and the size of their dose. I'm currently helping to treat my friend's cat, Sydney, who had diabetes for some time before treatment, and then he was put on Humulin N by the vet (an insulin that is similar to Caninsulin) and my friend was told not to home test. He was treated this way for 4 months and was up to 5u and had severe diabetic neuropathy before my friend got a hold of me and asked if I could help him. Because she wasn't home testing, she had no way of knowing that the 5u of insulin was too high a dose to begin with. Once he was switched to Lantus and she was home testing, he never needed more than 2.25u of insulin. He is now on .1u of insulin (yes, .1u, not 1u) and is expected to start a remission trial next week, even though he didn't start Lantus for more than 6 months after his diagnosis.

But even 2.25u is a bit higher than most cats need. My Bandit never needed more than 1u the entire time he was on insulin.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Here are suggestions for low carb foods that are available in the UK:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?p=33786
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=64843

I know there are UK members here who use Lantus (glargine) insulin. Ask your vet for this.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi fritzs mum. What are u feeding fritz as i find it so difficult to find the right food as there are so many suggestions but hardly any for uk?

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi darren am still such a novice at all this but ur dosage does sound quite high to what others hav posted on here. Started on 1u twice a day then 2wks later when he hospitalised went up to 2u twice a day then again 2wks later when he hospitalised again went up to 2.5 twice a day. His glucose was off the scale i.e. Over 30 and was only going down to 11 when he had insulin then back up to 27 or 30. But this time now he up to 2.5 it came down to 9 but back up to 22. He has another fructosamine test next wk which will hopefully tell us we near the right dose. I just hope we are for his and my sake. As u say just want my normal cat back. He actually slept on the bed with me last nite which he hasnt done for months!

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Becky, theres a link posted on here by squeem3 that shows the foods availible in uk, just scroll down and read posts. its helped me out, ive been scouring the net for weeks looking for low carbs for diabetic cats and it seems to have been right in front of my nose all along. I hope you get things sorted with winston, coming on here has now made me think differently about this illness, and the direction im going to go with it. I was feeling like my cat was on the verge of death and was dreading each and every day. Keep me informed how you go with it becky.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Just want to say a big thank you to you all on here, as individaully it would take me forever, for each and every post, link and nugget of info, i thank you. take care and i will let you know when im about to start the home testing and pick your brains some more.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren,

I just sent a private message to a couple of our experienced members that I know are in the UK, so hopefully they will get a chance to stop by and at least help you out with things like food, and other diabetic resources that are available to you in the UK. And if close enough might even be able to pop over to help you learn to test or give you a vet reference etc.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Mommaofmuse, Thank you for doing that for me, thats great. any help they can give would be good, even if just advice on where i can get different insulin from over here. got a site called viovet up at the minute but all they sell is caninsulin. want to try something else once the testing/change of food as begun. Thanks again for your thoughtfulness and help

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

If you go to a human local or online pharmacy, you should be able to get Lantus or Levemir, probably with a prescription.
If so, it is most economical to purchase it as a 5 pack of 3 mL pens instead of the 10 mL vial.
Each pen is used like a vial and a separate syringe (not the pen needles) is used to withdraw the insulin.
Handled calmly, Lantus users can use most or all of each pen, while the vial potency may peter out before it is empty.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

The bloated stomach and skeletal frame sound like my dear Cindy when she had FIP, Feline Infectious Peritonitis. Has she been tested for that? I hope that is not what it is, but the symptoms are similar.

Blessings and prayers,

Shirley

 

Hello from Essex

Hi Darren. Welcome to the FDMB community. I am in Essex and will send you my contact details via personal message. Please call me if I can help. I think you need to find a vet who will be more active in treating your kitty.

Home testing is really so important. You can a kit from Boots the Chemist. I used a One Touch Ultra. The testing strips can be purchased more cheaply on eBay. We have several members in the UK. if you can indicate which county you are in, I will try to put you in touch with a member who lives near to you.

As for food ... The best food for kitties with FD is Butchers Classic. You can get it from ASDA or Sainsburys. It is something of an acquired taste and your kitty may not like it. If not Butchers, you should try Whiskers or Felix ... Both in jelly as the gravy versions contain sugar.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Simon & Sam, i think i beat you to it by about 5 minutes, found the strips on ebay and also lantus at boots if get vets prescription off vets (there 2moz). didnt know boots did animal prescriptions but girlfriend telling me its for animals and children. Thanks for the food tips, will try until get one she likes. i'm hoping to start the dry testing this weekend, but i will put things on the forum beforehand just to make sure i'm understanding things correctly.

As for getting a more pro-active vet, i'll see how they are tomorrow but i think it may just be down to not specialising in fd thats hindering things. I'm based in manchester so dnt know if you know of any sypathetic vets in this region, but if you do, let me know and i will contact them. is there much need for them if doing the bg's and dosage yourself? or is it for prescriptions etc

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Shirley and ragnar,

I hope that isnt the case too, but just having a quick read on it, thats virtually untreatable, so im going to cross everything and treat the diabetes 1st. the only thing thats different is the appetite loss with fip, and my bank balance can testify that hasnt been the case with her so far. but will keep an eye on her once i start her new regime.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Simon is an awesome guy Darren if nothing else give him a ring and chat with him awhile and maybe you both can come up with someone local to you that can help you out locally...Simon has been around here a long time and helped out many UK kitties and their parents.

If you haven't figured out how to access your private messages yet just scroll up to the top of the page and you will see where it says 1 new message click that and it will open up a new window ...it is sort of our private email system on the board. There you will find the message from Simon with all his contact info.

I'm sure he can help you sort this all out and get your girl back to her best in short order.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Mommaofmuse,

ive found simons message and now have his contact info. will definatelty be calling him, i'm new to all this and dont want to be making any mistakes when there's someone there to walk me through it. will phone him tomorrow after ive been to the vets and found out about lantus etc.

Thanks again for putting us in touch with each other

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Aw shucks that is just what we do here.

By the way I may have missed it but what is your girl's name?...I hate to just keep referring to her as your kitty and she. Afterall cats deserve much more respect than that and usually demand that they be properly addressed... :lol:

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang (BTW I'm Mel...Maxwell and Musette are my sugarcats and the fur gang is made up of 11 nondiabetics and a large drooler (dog) )

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren, those are not normal diabetes symptoms. Your vet may want to look into the possibility of Cushing's disease as well.

From http://www.fabcats.org/owners/cushings/info.html
What signs might my cat show?
Many different signs of Cushing's syndrome can occur, including excessive drinking and urination (polyuria/polydipsia), increased appetite, enlargement of the abdomen, lethargy, muscle wasting, poor coat condition/hair loss, curling of the ear tips and the development of very thin and fragile skin. The skin can be so fragile that it very easily bruises and also can very easily tear.
The majority of cats with Cushing's syndrome also have diabetes mellitus because cortisol interferes with the effects of insulin. Because of this interference, the diabetes is difficult to control even when insulin is administered by injection. One of the most common reasons for suspecting Cushing's syndrome in a cat is the development of diabetes that is very difficult to control, despite administering high doses of insulin. In this situation the most commonly seen signs are those associated with the diabetes (increased drinking and urination, increased appetite, weight loss).


More links:
http://www.cat-world.com.au/hyperadrenocorticism-cushings-syndrome
http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Cushing's_disease

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Deanie,

I will ask the vet to do that. I think the only thing she doesn't have is the curling of the ear tips, but she does have the tearing of the skin. on her spine she has a strip where the fur has fallen out and this has a couple of scabs on it.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Mel,

Her official name with the vets is loulou, but at home she's just called baby.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Just a quick question for anyone out there.

Has anyone else had a cat with skeletal frame, bloated stomach, using caninsulin, and successfully changed this situation. Vets are telling me a changing insulin wont make a difference, caninsulin is fine and made for both cats and dogs, lantus isnt an animal insulin, its for humans so cant do prescription for it, doubting they would even if was purely for cats. wasted half an hour of my life bangin my head against a brick wall this morning.

I'm being told also that the water drinking isnt down to diabetes and is due to something underlying, which im not discounting, but i want to treat her for what we know she's got and not give up because of what may or may not be underlying.

Any advice or experience of this would be helpful.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Lantus is a Human insulin but is used off label for cats. This is the Lantus protocol based on the well-published Rand study: http://www.uq.edu.au/ccah/docs/diabetesinfo/link4.pdf Show it to your vet. Your vet can write a prescription for Lantus and you just buy it at the drug store (pharmacy/chemist). I know there are UK members here who have gotten their vets to do this.

Here is the abstract for the Rand study: http://felinediabetes.com/Treatment_glargine2009.htm Your vet may be able to get the full article for further reading.

Stomach bloating can indicate worms but not sure what your cat's other symptoms could be. I suggest going to a different vet and getting a second opinion.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hullo from Hastings, so I'm even further away. I'm pretty sure that there is someone near you. Get hold of Cats Protection Diabetic list>

Now for your problems

When Bushey came to us he was on 2 x 2u of Caninsulin, and I reckoned that his weight was down to 2lb, and when I tried to comb his matted fur I had to stop as his bones were sticking out!
I decided that caninsulin was doing no good at all. When I tested him his number was 35 !! I still had an old bottle on Insuvet PZI beef, which is no longer made.
I tried it and within a week his numbers had come down to the manageable 20s and two months later he was weighed at the vets and was 8lb, which was where he stayed till he died.
I would ask the vet for an insulin that is PZI which is more lasting, and preferably beef, as beef insulin is the nearest to cat insulin.

Before you go to the vet, do a curve.
That is do a reading every two hours, making a note of when you give insulin, and how much he has eaten. He is probably drinking gallons to try to wash the sugar out throgh his kidneys.
There is a sliding scale for giving insulin
Under 10 DO NOT GIVE INSULIN, DANGER OF HYPO
10 -15 1/2 a unit
15 -20 1 unit
20 - 25 1 1/2 units
25 -30 2 units
This was devised by Adrienne, who was our UK guru when I started

Good luck and I will P my phone no

Mary

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

I am not sure about the bloated stomach, but the excessive water drinking and urination is definitely a common symptom of diabetes... it's what leads many people to realize there is a problem with their cat and get them tested.

For what it's worth, my vet prescribed Lantus right away when my cat was diagnosed; I don't have anywhere near as much experience with diabetes as many folks here do who have already posted, but I think it's very common in the US now for cats to be prescribed Lantus, Levemir, or PZI/ProZinc instead of the older insulins that are similar to Caninsulin. I think the change in thinking is due in part to the work of the researchers who published the study that squeem3 posted above. Part of the problem is, as others I believe have pointed out, that cats metabolize insulin more quickly than people or dogs. Therefore they need the twice a day injections of a long-lasting insulin like Lantus or Levemir to keep their blood sugar regulated throughout the day. With shorter-acting insulins, the effect of the insulin is quick, harsh, and wears off too soon before they get the next injection, so their blood sugar levels can vary widely from low to high without becoming stable. Then there is the risk of the blood sugar getting too low, which is deadly and can be doubly risky if your vet both prescribes a shorter-acting insulin and discourages you from home testing.

Basically I would say that if your cat is skeletal, sick, weak, and constantly thirsty, that means she is either a) NOT regulated, regardless of what the vet says, or b) something else is going on. It's not normal for a regulated diabetic cat to be feeling so ill; many folks' cats here are healthy and happy and other than needing insulin injections, behave just as they always have. Getting your home testing data may help you figure out what is going on.

Good luck. I know it can be tough getting vets up to speed on the latest research without putting them on the defensive. Often they have so much to keep track of that their knowledge of diabetes in cats is not up to date, and I can't really blame them either--it's when they ignore the research or do things because they've "always done it that way" that it starts to bother me.

Just a random tip on the home testing... I don't know how much selection you have in the UK in terms of the spring-loaded lancets that are used to prick the cat's ear for testing, but if the ones that come with your testing kit don't seem to work to get the drop of blood from your cat, then you can try buying some that have a larger needle. Here we have sizes ranging from 26g (the largest) to 33g (the thinnest). I had a terrible time testing my cat with the very thin lancets, so I went out and got some of the larger ones (they're inexpensive) and that worked much better. Anyway, the thin ones may work just fine for you, but don't despair if you have trouble getting the blood at first.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren, I'm in Surrey and new to this thread, sorry, am not well at present but just wanted to write briefly.

First, we do all understand totally how you are feeling with all this - there is so much to take in and it does feel overwhelming, I know. But keep coming back here and reading and absorbing it all, and soon it will fall into place for you so that you can help your little girl better. Basically, there's a vast amount of experience here on this board but you need to use it in conjunction with your vet so that you get the best of both worlds - vast experience, and vet training.

What the others have said is right - Caninsulin is not the best insulin for cats. It works quickly but is used up fast, so has what we call short duration, and there may be long times of any 24 hours when your cat has no insulin in her system. But the doses you have been told to give her by the vet do seem on the high side and this in itself will be causing ups and downs in her BGs (blood glucose levels).

Knowledge is power. When you are able to get some BG readings at different points in any 24 hours, you can see how the insulin is working - how quickly it takes effect and how long it lasts. You can then take that info to your vet and discuss your options. Diet may well be a factor too - dried food of any kind is not good, but any variety of wet food in jelly is fine. Whiskas or Felix pouches are popular with most cats.

I'm sorry if I have repeated what others have said and that I can't write more just now, but we are trying to find you an experienced FDMB member near your own home, who may be able at least to recommend another vet who is more knowledgeable about this tricky to treat disease.

Before I go - do please continue to post here frequently, starting a new thread if you need to with a new header. No-one minds how often you write or if you need anything repeated or clarified.

Wishing you the very best of luck
Diana

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren, please print the articles I attached in my post above and give them to your vet, have them read them and then ask again for a script for Lantus. Those are scientific studies from veterinary journals that prove Lantus is safe and much more effective for cats than caninsulin. If they still won't write you the script, change to a vet who will.

Your cat is obviously NOT responding to the caninsulin and needs the insulin changed before she gets worse. Uncontrolled diabetes is deadly if allowed to persist.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Bovine PZI is no longer recommended for use in cats and it's not that much better than Caninsulin in terms of efficacy (see the Lantus/PZI/Caninsulin study attached above). PZI has now been replaced with a recombinant human insulin, Prozinc, which from what I've read is more difficult to get in the UK than Lantus or Levemir.

In theory, feline insulin is more similar to bovine insulin, and therefore cats theoretically should develop more anti-insulin antibodies on a human insulin than on a bovine insulin. However, there have been no studies that have shown greater rates of insulin resistance to Lantus than PZI. In fact, studies have shown a large number of cats successfully regulated on Lantus for long periods of time without any noted insulin resistance, and insulin resistance due to anti-insulin antibodies has been rarely documented in cats regardless of the type of insulin. Most insulin resistance is caused by hormonal issues.What makes an insulin effective or not in a cat is it's duration of action--the recommended human analogs have a longer duration of action, so they are more effective in keeping blood glucose levels in a normal range for a longer period of time, and successful extended control of blood glucose is what ultimately leads to remission.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hello again,
I do not know what a bloated stomach represents in cats; however, in starving children it represents extreme starvation. Combining that with your description of a skeletal appearance of your Baby, if she were mine, I would be tempted to feed her calorie dense, high quality meat, low carb wet food. Perhaps, some kind of meat-only baby food? Don't know the name of such food in UK. This is just my opinion, I do not mean to scare you and trust more experienced members will provide corrections or comments. Good wishes, Sophie

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi - not familiar w/ your insulin, but I've just recently dropped my Grayson from 6u ProZinc to 3u for a week, and now 2u - so far for a couple of days. His ravenous cravings for food have just about disappeared. He's not much of a drinker in front of me, but his pee pies (in scoopable litter) are getting smaller (they were 5" diameter!), and he's acting more normal... grooming, playing, etc. I think this was the ticket for him... reducing. I think he was eating as a way to counter the effect of the large doses I was giving him.

One thing to be sure of, as we've dropped, I'm checking ketones regularly. That's how we ended up so high in the first place. PLEASE be sure to test your guy - DKA can be thousands of dollars to treat! Checking ketones is a way to catch any concerns before they become problematic.

Good luck!

Lu-Ann

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Be careful with UK baby food.
As the makers wanted to reduce the salt in baby foods, they put in ONION SALT instead

ONION is poisonous to cats!

Years ago I wrote to one maker and they sent me a list of non onion foods. You will be glad to know that tinned mandarine oranges have no onion in them!"

Mary
PS
Check Janet and Binkies food lists. There is a UK section

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

BCP PZI is still being made but I don't know if it is available in the UK. http://www.bcpvetpharm.com/products_bovine.htm

Beechnut makes a meat based baby food that does not contain anything but meat and meat broth. Do you have this brand in the UK?
Beechnut Turkey and Turkey Broth
Beechnut Beef and Beef Broth
Beechnut Chicken and Chicken Broth

Gerber is another brand but the meat based foods do contain cornstarch for the gravy which may affect blood glucose levels in some cats.
Gerber Chicken and Chicken Gravy
Gerber Turkey and Turkey Gravy

Read the labels of the meat based baby foods that are available in the UK. Do not buy anything that contains garlic, onions, seasonings, etc. You want just meat and water or broth, nothing else.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Thanks again for all your posts,

Here's where im up to. I've bought a testing kit, and plan to do a full curve of testing sunday when i'm off work, if nothing else it will show what the caninsulin is doing. i've also purchased some methylocbalamin b12 tablets online, hoping these will help with the stomach and wobbly legs.

Also got a number of vets that do 3 different types of insulin, hypurin being one of them. Anyone got any experience of this stuff? would like to hear your thoughts. The vets is quite a way from my home so going to do more searching before settle on that one.

Thanks again, and one more thing: is there a sweet spot on the ear that i need to hit or should blood be drawn quite easily?

Off to work, will check in later.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

It looks like hypurin insulin is a PZI insulin that is available in the UK. I found two types: a bovine protamine zinc one and a bovine lente one.

The PetDiabetes Wiki says The only PZI insulin still available for people is CP Pharma's Hypurin Bovine Protamine Zinc and it must be imported from the UK. http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/PZI

I've never used PZI so I can't tell you anything about how that insulin works for cats. You may want to browse the PZI group for info: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewforum.php?f=24 Members who have used PZI will be along to provide more info.

There is :smile: There's a great picture here: http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m267/chupie_2006/testingear/sweetspot.jpg

here are more hometesting tips here: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=287

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Had phone call from vets earlier, her blood tests have shown an increase from 323 to 420. she told me she can increase the dose, or now prescribe me a pzi (dont know the type tho). but 1st she wanted to do a curve on her. I've told her was planning my own for sunday and would it be ok to send results over. vet was fine with this although she did say results can be has much as 30% inaccurate. Just glad of the about turn made by the vets, one less thing to have to worry about.

Was planing to start curve saturday afternoon about 4pm (2 hrs before insulin) and do full 24 hrs. Is this a good starting point?

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

You can start 2 hrs before her insulin, but you don't have too. When we run curves on our cats we usually just start with a test right before their first shot in the moring and then test every two hours up to the test right before their next shot in the evening. so you get a test right before shot 1, then at +2, +4, +6, +8, +10 and then again at +12 or right before their evening shot. If LouLou was spending the day at the vet's to have a curve run they certainly wouldn't being doing it for 24 hours.

The only difference you are going to see in numbers using a human meter than the one used by the vet, assuming they are using a pet only meter is that a human meter runs about 30 points lower than a pet only one. As long as both you and your vet are aware that normal on a human meter is between 40-120 and on a pet only meter normal is between 70-150 you should be fine. All meters have a +/- of 20% so you can test the same drop on blood twice and get two different numbers but both should be within that 20% variance.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

you can start the curve at anytime and test every 2 hours or so.

Personally, I would get the prozinc or PZI now and start testing.

And note that when you take cat to vet's the BG's can be off significantly due to vet stress on the cat. So, testing at home is the best way to get the most accurate BG's.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Mel, So i dont need to do a 24 hour test then? 12 is sufficient?

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Hillary, yes, she was extremely stressed yesterday, getting moreso every time i take her now. would prefer to do everything from home and save her the anxiety.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

I don't think anyone here does a 24 hour curve. A 12 hour curve is sufficient if your cat is cooperative. Don't go nuts trying to test every 2 hours on the dot. As long as you get a couple of blood glucose numbers spread out over a 12 hour period, it's enough :smile:

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Thanks squeem, and for all the other help too.

Wasnt looking forward to the sleep deprivation too much if i'm honest.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren, yes a 12 hour curve is fine! And if you can't get a reading every two hours on the dot, try not to stress too much - it may not be easy the first time you do a curve, for both you and your cat.
Please note also that when Mel talks about variations in BGs she is talking in American terms - here in the UK we use the international version and those are the figures that your vet will expect to see from you.
I believe Simon has given you his phone number but if you'd like another UKer's number let me know, I'm happy to help if need be,
Best of luck
Diana (in Surrey)

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Darren,

If it helps any - don't get stressed over the need to do a curve. If you look at Maui's spreadsheet, you will see that I NEVER did a curve. Rather, I tested her at various times during the cycles and collected my data that way.

What is important is to start testing, get you and the cat comfortable with this, come up with a testing process and there you go.

How's that for alleviating stress......

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Diane and tom,

it would be nice to have another contact number in the uk, in case simon is busy when i encounter a problem. i'm pretty confident about what im doing at the moment, did a little test on loo lou's ear last night and she was fine with it, purring because she thought she was getting some attention. think the problem, or time i will need to contact either simon or yourself will be with the change of diet/pzi introduction. thank you, And its reassuring to know im not on my own throughout all this.

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

You're definitely not on your own, Darren - we all know how overwhelming this is with so much to take in, and everyone here is super and will be with you every step of the way. It won't be long before you're the one offering support to others!

I will PM you with my phone number - don't hesitate to ring either me or Simon. Also, we were trying to track down another UK member who lived in Manchester last we heard of her - did Simon get back to you about that?

I think the main thing at the moment is to stay calm and don't get too stressed about a perfect curve. Cats pick up on stress and if you're not calm when you're trying to take a blood test, they won't be either. We often suggest having some nice music on in the background or a glass (just one!!) of your favourite tipple to relax you. It does make it easier. The other important thing is warmth - a cat's ear needs to be gently warmed to get blood most easily. People do this various ways but I found the easiest was to make a little pad from cottonwool - run it under hot water, wring it out well and hold it behind the ear with one hand whilst using the lancet pen with the other. I remember it was all a real fiddly procedure at first but after a while it's a doddle. Having said all that, it sounds as if you have done your first test with no problems, in which case very well done!

So if you're doing a curve, just do the best you can, and let us know here and we will comment. A curve will show you what the insulin is doing (or not) and is the very best indicator of the next steps. Remember also, as I think I said (and others may or may not have said) - although this board is open to everyone wherever they are in the world, the vast majority of members are in the US and think in US numbers. Here in the UK we use the international version. If I remember rightly, you can callibrate your meter to one version or the other so I would say go for the international numbers so you can show your vet. By all means talk in "our" version here on the board but I would remind people, in any new posts with BG readings, that you are in the UK - otherwise you will get some very confused and confusing comments! I think to convert our numbers into US numbers you multiply by 18 - so, for example, if you get a reading of 10.0, Americans would need to understand that it's 180 to them. I hope that makes sense.

Keep us informed!
Diana

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi darren what testing kit did u buy?

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Becky,

Bought an 'Accu-Check' kit from boots, seems to have done the trick, got full curve any (results will post in a moment on 'FIRST CURVE' header).

The actual pen is quite easy to use, but feel free to have a look around or ask other peoples advice, boots does do quite a few different types.

Hows Winston doing at the moment? is he ok?

Darren

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Becky,

Sorry for really late reply, just been mad busy today, If need answer straight away, do personal message, it comes through to my phone so will find time to log in.

Darren

 

Re: uk - skeletal cat on caninsulin 3mos - urgent help neede

Hi Darren, not sure why I didn't get your reply but only spotted it when I did a search for caninsulin and it came up rather than being on the main board? Am I looking in the wrong palce? Anyway have been back and forth to the vets, some visits positive some not so great. He went up to 3 units twice a day, then when I went back the following week he'd lost more weight, down to 5.8, so was put up to 4 units twice a day, and then when I went back 2 days later his weight was up to 6.2 and his glucose had dropped to 13 (about 4 hours after his insulin). So am currently still trying to get his levels right while constantly worrying about him! His drinking and weeing seemed to subside yesterday but today seemed to be a bit more again. Am back at the Vets wednesday, was due friday but am worried about his wobbly back legs still, but if they improve will leave the visit until Friday as the constant visits are not only distressing for him (even though I think he's getting quite used it) but they are also rather costly! But then we'd do anything for our pets wouldn't we? I am going to talk to the vet about testing at home this week and see what he suggests. Thank you for letting me know which kit you got, its a real help.

How are you and your cat getting on?