(UK) Stealing food elsewhere!

Hi all -

Quick update on Wicket - now 8 weeks since diagnosis, we've successfully weaned him off the dry m/d food and we're on Thrive Complete (UK wet food, chicken with appropriate vit/mineral additives) so all good there, and working towards regulation.

Now on 2.5iu BID of Caninsulin (nothing else currently available in UK) and latest curve saw a pre-shot of 450 (25mmol) dropping to nadir of 198 (11mmol) at +6.

Problem is that he's a very adventurous outdoor cat and we know he's invading neighbours' houses and stealing their cats' food. We've flyered the neighbourhood to inform everyone that he's diabetic, got him a collar with the info on it and are educating the various cat owners locally on why they shouldn't be feeding their cats dry stuff. But we're still seeing wayward numbers which suggest occasional other food - this morning's pre-shot was 594!

Any ideas from the hivemind?

Thanks!
Lyssa

 

Hello to another UK person, Lyssa!

First off, there are other insulins available in the UK that are usually a lot better than Caninsulin. I started out on Caninsulin but it gave my cat steep BG drops and then was out of his system in about 8 hours which meant 4 hours each cycle with no insulin... As the name suggests, 'Caninsulin' was made for dogs...

I switched from Caninsulin to Insuvet PZI. It worked much better than Caninsulin but was discontinued last year (to much weeping and wailing in the UK..). I couldn't use Lantus because I wasn't able to always give shots 12 hours apart. But I was advised by a vet - who had previously been a chemist working on creating animal medicines - that Hypurin Bovine protamine zinc would be a really good option. My own vet wanted me to go back to Caninsulin but Hell would have to freeze over before I did that.... So, he agreed to get the Hypurin for me. It has a longer duration than Caninsulin, and has worked really well for Bertie. Who knows, maybe it would be an option for you too....?

I have an indoor/outdoor cat too. Most of us in the UK do. But in the US that's not the way of things and you will probably get folks suggesting that you either keep your cat indoors or build him a condo outside. (I still don't even know what a 'condo' actually is!!!!)

Anyway, I really didn't want to disturb the pattern of Bertie's life any more than I had too...

Are you certain that Wicket is stealing food? Or are you just guessing that from the numbers?

Bertie's numbers were all over the place for the first few months, totally defying logic; but there were no cat owners nearby and Bertie wasn't a wanderer. Have people told you that your cat has been stealing their cat food?

 

Condo = apartment = Flat - it's the same idea.

Similar to a dog house type enclosure, but enclosed so the animal can't get "outside". Usually, made with mesh or fencing that allows the cat to move about the space, without having the freedom to go off somewhere.

 

Me again, Lyssa, (just went downstairs to grab a cup of tea. )

If, if, IF Wicket is stealing food then could that be because he is actually hungry???

Unregulated cats with high numbers are often hungry all the time precisely because their little bodies can't assimilate the food.

How much are you feeding him? Are you trying to control the amount of food he's eating?

 

Thanks, Hilary, I've puzzled over that one for years!

 

Hi Elizabeth -

Absolutely certain he's eating elsewhere - three neighbours made contact after we flyered to say they'd had to chase him out after catching him eating their kitty's food. It helped to explain his erratic numbers (example, on a 24h curve day he shot up from 10mmol to 28mmol in the space of 2h; that's a big jump even on caninsulin)

I knew about the PZI issue, as we'd asked our vet about switching to it for the same reasons you've mentioned - the short action time and steep drops.
Our vet has recently suggested glargine (on Googling I've just discovered that this is Lantus, which gets a lot of positive mention on here) if we can't stabilise Wicket on caninsulin.

My real concern is that he's spending so much of each day with really high BG numbers, but it's reassuring to know that Bertie's numbers were erratic initially. How long did it take him to settle down? Wicket's only in his 9th week as a diabetic, so I suppose that's still quite early. Even when his numbers are bonkers high he seems pretty content - never shows any real signs of feeling poorly.

We could never keep Wicket in - he would be extremely unhappy, so can only work towards limiting the availability/unsuitability of neighbour foods!

Lyssa
(A condo is just a US word for an apartment/flat

 

Elizabeth -

The food amount is something I'm a bit puzzled by - we've been sticking, in the main, to the amounts recommended by the manufacturer for a cat of Wicket's size (now down to 4.4kg/10lbs from a slightly tubby 5.5kg/12lbs) but should we just be feeding him as much as he'll eat whilst we're trying to get him regulated?

He's always been a greedy bugger - he was a rescue cat so seems still, after 7 years, to not believe that his next meal is guaranteed. I know that unregulated diabetic cats aren't assimilating the glucose from food properly; if he's still hungry after a meal, should I just give him more? I'm not sure he knows when to stop eating...

Thanks again
Lyssa

 

Hi Lyssa,

If if were my cat then I'd definitely feed him a bit more.... It could reduce his hunger and stop him searching for snacks elsewhere. I also gave Bertie lots of 'chicken soup' in the early days (and still do from time to time as a treat) which was just the stock made from simmering chicken wings or drumsticks gently in water for 45 mins. He used to drink loads of this. And I thought it must be good for his kidneys as well as filling him up a bit. I'd make a batch and then freeze it in ice cube trays, just thawing and warming it in the microwave to make it smell yummy (well, to him anyway; I'm vegetarian!).

Just a thought, I don't know if your're already doing this but could you keep Wicket in at night? That would limit the time he could spend snack-searching. And I'm assuming he is a neutered male and not out chasing the ladies...??? Or was he neutered as an adult cat? Bert was neutered as an adult (he'd been a stray cat before coming to us) but for a long time he would still occasionally go off chasing females. He just didn't know what to do once he'd caught up with them!

I've just had a look at the ingredients list of Thrive chicken food. It looks amazing! And I've just run the ingredient stats through my 'UK Cat Foods Carbohydrate Calculator' (devised by a fab lady called Beth who used to post here a lot) and it comes out as having zero carbohydrates. Crikey! (I know it doesn't show carbs on the label, but cat foods rarely do so I always run the ingredient stats though the calculator...)

I know that high numbers are scary. I used to spend a lot of time in tears over that one... Bert was high for months and months, but that is unusual; he was just one of the unlucky ones... But even though Bert's numbers were high his health improved enormously once he was on insulin. There must have been positive effects from the insulin that weren't showing up in the numbers alone. It's early days with Wicket, so try not to worry...

I'm presuming you are testing Wicket's pee for ketones?

 

Thanks so much for all this input.

Heh - you're veggie; we're a mostly vegan household! My husband would have a fit if I started cooking up chicken bones, I think.
Wicket's main forays outside are at night - keeping him in would possibly make him a bit unhappy, but it's worth thinking about, and would certainly make testing his urine a possibility - we've not done this much as he pees outside. We have another, non-diabetic cat, so with a litter tray I'm never sure whose urine I'm dealing with...

Will feed him a bit more; problem is that he ADORES dry food (one of the reasons he's diabetic now, I think) and will always go for it even if he's just had a meal. He was neutered as an adult (at around 18 months) which is just before we adopted him. I don't think he chases tail, as it were, but he certainly displays other more typical un-neutered behaviours; spraying etc.

Yeah, the Thrive is good. It ain't cheap but it was hard to wean him off dry so I was happy with anything he'd take to eating. We started with Applaws but quickly realised that it isn't a complete cat food (which is a bit pointless, IMO) so found the Thrive. He won't touch Lily's or anything which looks more like a commercial wet food.

Wicket is definitely in very improved shape even with the yoyo-ing numbers - he was in a ketoacidotic crisis when he was diagnosed so it was touch and go. Will up his food amount and see what difference it makes to reports from neighbours of nightly marauding.

Thanks
Lyssa

 

Ooooh, but given Wicket's recent history it would be wise to keep the ketone testing going, especially while his BG numbers are high... It could give you huge reassurance too...

We have 5 cats, and getting a urine sample does require observation and sometimes an element of stealth, but it can be done. Honestly... The trick though, if you're using normal cat litter, is to get the urine on the ketostix strip before it absorbs into the litter. You can also use fine gravel for the purpose - if your cat will pee in it; or there is a special kind of non-absorbent litter you can buy apparently but I think it is pricey. I ended up using a mix of gravel and cat litter when I tested Bert.

 

I just had a thought that if you keep Wicket inside at night, maybe you could introduce some evening play time with him so he can get a little excercise and some bonding time with the beans. Try to find a way to make it not seem like punishment. New toys or a comfy bed by a warm window or something.

Good luck to you both!

 

My Myrtle was indoor/outdoor (like the vast majority of Kiwi cats), though I made her stay inside once I went to bed from the time I got her as a rescue cat. She coped with that OK, but was highly territorial and HAD to be free to come and go during the day via the cat door or she'd have gone insane.

She really hated using a litter box until she became diabetic, and my first clues to diabetes was when she started having to use the box during the night and of course the drinking and increased hunger.
Anyway, I digress - I started out to say that as Myrtle peed outside I had to become an expert at catching urine in mid-stream, and I was! Luckily I had a small garden, so would wait till she crouched and then came up behind her with a plastic spoon. I then put that sample into a marj. container to transport it inside without spilling, and tested it.
Myrtle tended to be on the high side on insulin (I could only get caninsulin back in 2005-7) but even so, she took on a new lease of life; stopped drinking and eating excessively and ran around outside like her former self.
Like you, I didn't want to change her accustomed lifestyle and thus stress her. Hope you can cure the eating elsewhere by giving him a bit more!