Updating the "Pet Food Nutritional Values Comparison"

First, I want to say that I've been in touch with Wayne, the wonderful guy who initially created this spreadsheet in honor of his GA Hobo, and have his blessings on updating his excellent 2010 spreadsheet. Thank you, Wayne. Hobo's legacy will live on to help other cats!

One of the most difficult things for me when Pumbaa was diagnosed was figuring out the best low-carbs canned foods for him. Too many charts to reference; what appeared to be conflicting information on the cans (sweet potatoes? apples? cranberries? for a diabetic cat on low carbs?); no truly easy way to figure out carb content while standing in the store staring at the min and max numbers listed; and not trusting that the manufacturers hadn't added cheap carbs to the foods since the above referenced spreadsheet and Binky's lists were last updated. (Someone stated that manufacturers can change the ingredients but have 6 months to update the labels on the cans. That's outrageous!)

While people here gave good advice about what they feed their cats, there is also a thread about how pet food manufacturers HAVE been changing the ingredients, and, since they aren't required to list the carb content on the cans, as in human food, I started contacting the manufacturers to confirm the nutritional values.

Here's an example: people were recommending Merrick's Cowboy Cookout as it is supposed to be low in carbs and lower in fat than many of the other foods, like the EVO 95% foods I've been feeding my boys. But when I went to the store, the can ingredients stated, "Beef, Beef Broth, Beef Liver, Fresh Sweet Potato, Fresh Carrots, Fresh Snow Peas, Fresh Whole Granny Smith Apples, Potato Starch-modified, Dried Egg, Dried Blueberry, Dried Cranberry, etc." I freaked out on the 4th ingredient, sweet potato, as well as the carrots, snow peas, apples and potato starch. My brain said, "there is NO WAY this is still a low carb cat food with sweet potato as the 4th ingredient!" And I put it back on the shelf.

But a discussion with Julia (thank you...sometimes I need a 2 x 4 to the head), and then downloading Wayne's "Pet Food Nutritional Values Comparison" SS allowed me to see that he had listed sweet potato as the 4th ingredient, and that his numbers were based on this.

That got me thinking that, if this spreadsheet listed the ingredients at the time the numbers were calculated, we could compare more easily and see if any ingredients changed that would alter the numbers we are interested in. Especially for those of us new to FD and relying on nutritional information that is sometimes 7 years old.

To make a long story short, since I was already contacting the pet food manufacturers who don't list this information on their websites, and I was already creating my own SS, I thought how great it would be to take Wayne's 2010 SS and just update it, and highlight what has changed, and put in a date of the last verification of information or change of information, and list the ingredients at the time the information was verified or updated.

So far, I've done Merrick and EVO. I would love to take this SS a step further and add everything from Binky's charts, so that all of us have just one single source to go to to figure out what food to buy for our cats. And I would like to keep this updated, and have everyone notify me if they see a change in ingredients that would affect the protein/fat/carb values so that I/we/someone could then contact the manufacturer and get new numbers.

I would also love if this would become a group project, and that some of you would volunteer to help check this information and keep the SS up to date. It could easily be split out by manufacturer, or even by manufacturer and product line 'cause I know that we are all very busy people, especially dealing with diabetic cats!

You can view what I've done so far here, by updating Merrick and EVO. This is now called "Hobo's Guide to Nutrional Values in Cat Food" (updated 5/10/12), in honor of the little guy who inspired Wayne to take on the daunting task of creating this SS.

FYI: If you see something in pink, it changed since the last information was posted. For example, EVOs 95% Quail became Quail and Chicken. And a lot of the ash values changed on Merrick Before Grain. If you don't see any pink highlights but the "Date of Update" column still has a date, that is because the information was verified on that date and all was still true. To me, that is a comfort. Also, because all of our computers are different, if you see information that is cut off, try expanding that row or column to get everything to show up. I've been playing with how to upload this, so that we can print it on landscaped 8-1/2" x 11" paper, but I haven't found the best way, yet. I even tried converting the Excel file to .pdf format, but that caused the frozen split panes for the table header rows to go wonky. I'll figure out the best way to share this data that works for all of us, in time.

Let me know what you think!

Suze

 

I think this is amazing! I would feel better about having some more recent numbers. Thanks for your work on this!!

 

Thank you, grapey! I would love more updated information, too! We can ALL benefit from this!

 

Thankyou so much Suze! This is great! I hope I can use more of these info but because I am in HK, we dont have that many brands here. I am using mostly the Wiskas chicken & turkey, Wiskas chicken & salmon for my Rosy. And also Wellness Core which Ive found out is not exactly LC. :roll:

 

Tortie, you are so very welcome!

And you bring up a good point...I wonder if the ingredients are different in different countries? That thread about "read the labels" included info that in Canada, I think it was Special Kitty had different ingredients than here in the U.S.

Unless Wellness Core changed ingredients, or it is different in your area of the world, it is supposed to be low carb. Maybe Wellness is the next manufacturer to contact.

We might have to add a column for the country the food is manufactured, or purchased, in.

Can you check your cans and see if it says where it was manufactured?

Suze

 

Wayne, the originator of this SS back in 2010, has volunteered to contact Country Pet Naturals and supply us with the information on their food.

Thank you, Wayne!

 

The Wellness Core I got is made in USA. The Wiskas chicken is Australian made.
Since most cats in this asian region are all eating fish, most can food are made in Thailand (no matter the brand) We also have a lot of Japanese brand canned food, mostly fish. Since the content is in Japanese, we cannot understand it!
:?: A question:
1)The Wellness core is sold as a "no-grain", so why is their carb content same as an ordinary Wellness where they may have rice inside?
2)If there is a 1% rice in a can, can we assume it is a LC?
3)If we mix in fresh boiled , say chicken or fish to the meal, does it make it more LC?
4)Anything <10% carb is LC, correct?

 

Tortie,

I can't answer your questions...but maybe Wellness should be the next manufacturer on my list to contact for the as-fed values since what you are getting is coming from the U.S.

Suze

 

Just a heads up--while some companies like Merrick's, EVO, and Wellness are very forthcoming with their as-fed values, many companies are not. I've been emailing Purina over 6 months now for the as-fed values of 3 flavors of Fancy Feast, still with no response. A few weeks ago there was some confusion as to the actual value of Wysong's new Epigen 90 dry food, which they are claiming to have less than 1% carbs. Since that claim seemed off after looking at the ingredients (it was estimated to be more in the range of 14% carbs from the guaranteed analysis) and the dry matter analysis was not on their web site, I tried calling and emailing them. After getting the runaround for 2 weeks, I was told that they were not making the as-fed values available to the public at this time (probably because they wouldn't be able to make false claims about 0% carbs if they did). :roll:

 

Julia, thank you, I just emailed Purina as well. Let me know if you ever do hear from them. You're tenacious! I like that!

If the manufacturers aren't willing to share that information, they must not want us to purchase their food! Maybe in the date updated column I just put that the manufacturer refused to provide the as-fed values, and then people will have to decide for themselves whether they want to continue feeding the cats this stuff. And that is too bad about Wysong and Epigen 90 being able to make false claims like that. Maybe the SS also needs a warning section for foods to stay away from? I'm totally open to suggestions!

I also emailed Friskies this morning.

 

There are some updated FF values in this thread: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=54680. Like I said, I'm still waiting on the response for the three flavors I emailed for.

 

Julia: thank you for the link to that thread! I will add those to the SS tonight.

 

I'd love to see a newer Canadian version of this! I have a difficult time with the current charts as many of the flavours are not the same here! I am feeding a multiple cat home (as many here are) and $$ is always a concern as well. Would love to see more of the more economical (FF, SK) foods!

I would be willing to contribute to a Canadian food chart (or even spearhead-didnt want to step on toes!)

I am fairly new to FD, but if I get pointed in the right direction..watch out lol!

Let me know!
Val

 

Val, there'd be no stepping on toes here 'cause a group project means everyone has to work less hard! So thank you for volunteering to help!

If the foods are that different, a separate Canadian version of the SS would be great...at least for the foods that are different. Then Canadians can reference both charts...the first one for the US manufactured and available foods, and the second for the Canadian foods, depending on what is available in their area.

I'll PM you tonight with details on the SS. It would be great if they both followed exactly the same format so that people using both would easily be able to find the same info across the board.

Thank you again!

Suze

 

Super Pumbaa. Thank you and Julia, have emails out to Natures variety that makes instinct. Was emailed back other day asking for more specifics what I was looking for, will post info as I get it. So confused what companies make how many foods. :roll:

 

Cheryl: Thank you for emailing Instinct!

What we need to know to plug in the numbers are the as-fed values for:
Protein
Fat
Carb
Fiber
Phospherous
Magnesium
Calcium
Ash
Moisture
Also the size of the can and the calories per that size of can.

Suze

 

Oops I had emailed Stella and chewy's, but now just email natures variety asking for that information for their canned and freeze dried instinct products.

 

Cheryl: Well then, thank you for already emailing Stella & Chewys as well!

Suze

 

Stopping to see if that is what's wanted before copy pasting remainder as noted ash is below what I am including.

They answered instantly, on site there is info on all except carb that they supplied here so will copy paste that there to here.
 

 

I would love to know if we add things if it makes it lower carb. Good question Tortie.

 

Pumbaa and everyone else, thanks for doing this. Tremendous amount of work but such valuable information.

I have one dumb question - when reading the chart, ideally we'd be using the as fed values to determine carb percentage? Cuz I see that the numbers in the first set of columns are different. I've read the nutritional info on Lisa's site so I have some sense of what it all means. But I just wanted to confirm that, where both sets of numbers exist, the as fed is the "better" set to go by?

Thanks

 

That whole "take the amount of protein and divide by your shoe size minus your bra size then multiply by the square root of 3..." stuff makes my brain hurt. @-)

Fortunately, Wayne's SS has the formula's all taken care of. I just have to copy and paste...I can handle that! *LOL*

Suze

 

Can more raw foods be added to the chart? The chart has two brands listed (NV and Feline's Pride) but it would be nice to have other raw foods listed so people can compare and choose the food that will be best for their cat.

Here's the info for all The Honest Kitchen dehydrated raw products: http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/foods-one-sheet_2012_FN.pdf

Here's the Prowl info: http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/prowl-flyerv5.pdf

And for Grace: http://www.thehonestkitchen.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Grace-Flier.pdf

 

We can add anything anyone wants...as long as others are willing to help with the homework, as you did (and others have and are).

Would you be willing to contact The Honest Kitchen and see if they have an update on the Prowl since that information is over a year old?

Suze

 

JK: You are so welcome.

I've been going by the % KCal numbers because to me, it's a truer reading of the percentage of calories they are getting from protein, fat and carbs.

I don't understand it all, but there is some good information on Janet & Binky's page.

Hope someone else with a better understanding chimes in here...

Suze

 

Thanks, I guess I had that backward in my head

 

I am waiting on Stella and chewy info but know they are sposed to be ok for diabetics.
I had tried feline version of Honest Kitchen, but missy wasn't interested yrs ago, took to Stella and chewy and instinct immediately.

 

I agree as feel posting treading water. :sad: total confusion.

 

I'm going to attempt to call Purina Canada tomorrow, and possibly Grreat Choice depending on how well it goes!

Question: I am looking for the 'as fed' values right? If they don't have/won't share them with me, what other info would be beneficial? I am guessing carb content? Anything else?

I am hoping to get somewhere with Purina (optimistic, or impossible from what I've read!) since I think the majority of us use their products! I have no problem telling them that I am a part of a community of 4000+ cat owners who won't be too supportive of their products if they aren't forthcoming!

Does anyone have any info for the somewhat elusive Special Kitty brand? I know it is produced for Walmart and the can gives Walmart's head office address! I can try calling the 800 Walmart # but figured someone may have better info?!

 

Val (and everyone):

Here are the values we need to plug into the SS in order to make things work correctly (and to have the same data for all cat foods):

As-fed values for:
Protein
Fat
Carbs
Fiber
Phospherous
Magnesium
Calcium
Ash
Moisture
Also the size of the can and the calories per that size of can.

Don't forget, we also need the ingredients (in the order listed on the can) at the time the above values were given, otherwise people won't be able to compare the ingredients down the road and have a flag go up alerting them that if the ingredients changed, the values are probably incorrect, too.

Suze

 

With kcal that doesn't tell carbs does it? Feel need to post more from nv they have many more numbers nutrional wise but not sure how much wanted Pumbaaa?

 

4,889 last time I checked. And (unfortunately) growing daily. And many of us are purchasing canned cat food for more than one cat, and many of us feed our cats canned cat food exclusively.

If the manufacturer, like Purina, has too many products to supply data on, let them know that we are most interested in those canned cat foods that have less than 10% of their calories from carbs. (Maybe less than 7% carbs as fed?) That could rule out a lot of their varieties and make them more forthcoming to give us the information we want. And will still provide us with a nice list of foods we want to feed our FD kitties.

Having a list of canned cat foods that are within the carb levels we are striving for (<10%) is more important than listing every variety out there. Anyone disagree with this?

Suze

 

I think that may be ideal. I will start with that and see where it gets me.

I am a multiple cat, exclusive canned food home as I imagine most of us here are, so that in theory doubles (at minimum) the number of customers they could stand to lose!

I will update what (if any) info I get tomorrow.

 

Cheryl, the spreadsheet is set up to calculate the KCal values based on the as-fed values that will be plugged in.

For example:

The KCal from protein is figured using this formula: = ((E44* 3.5) / (E44*3.5 + F44*8.5 + G44*3.5)) * 100
The KCal from fat is figured using this formula: = ((F44* 8.5) / (E44*3.5 + F44*8.5 + G44*3.5)) * 100
The KCal from carbs is figured using this formula: = ((G44* 3.5) / (E44*3.5 + F44*8.5 + G44*3.5)) * 100

I tried figuring out the above on my own and nearly had to be committed to an insane asylum, and I'm not bad at math. *LOL*

You can go to the spreadsheet online and see what cells are being used to figure the KCal values.

I'm still trying to work tonight, so I haven't had time to look at what everyone supplied. As long as I got those as-fed values that I need, and the ingredients at the time the values were given, we will be fine.

Suze (Pumbaa is the cat. The human is Suze. Pumbaa is smarter than me and gets me to do all of this work while he eats, poops, and lounges around. *LOL*)

 

So much info from so many people already today! That is way cool.

I won't get to it all tonight. My eyeballs are already bleeding after spending hours working at the computer, but I just finished doing some more fine-tuning to the spreadsheet, including listing the brands in alphabetical order. That's going make life easier for all of us. I had already sorted the varieties in alphabetical order yesterday.

Unfortunately, I am working on this on my computer and every time I do an update to Google Docs, it changes the url (link). And it also requires that I stop and fix what Google f'd up with the formatting. I've tried saving this as a .pdf file, but when saved right out of Excel, it makes the frozen header go bonkers. (Have I mentioned that I hate Microsoft products? Being a Mac user...)

Anyway, I thank you ALL for attempting to get updated information today, and for sharing information that was already updated, as well as previous attempts to get updated info! You people simply rock!

We all want the same thing, and that is to feel comfortable purchasing the correct foods for our FD kitties, and having it easy to identify what those correct foods are. Today. And not based on manufacturer's information from 5 years ago. Again, I am not dissing anyone who tried providing this information in the past, because I know how much time they put into it, and their information was excellent, when it was provided. But people's lives change and we need something like this that is ongoing, that someone can take over from me like I did from Wayne, when my life changes. And that is perpetually kept up to date for all of the new people who come to these boards every day, with newly diagnosed FD cats.

One more hour of working on the SS and inputting info I got today. Then one last BG test and maybe some sleep for me, eh?

 

Those 3 have now been added to the SS. They won't show up yet because I haven't done a new upload, but they have been added.

 

The first link (the one that includes the dog formulas) is the most up to date one. It was posted just last month on The Honest Kitchen's Facebook page.

Neither cat product are suitable for diabetics but it can go on the chart anyways so people can compare the foods :smile:

The FDMB member list isn't very accurate. There are people who joined but have never posted at all and/or have never come back after joining. Then there are people who joined under one name but then for whatever reason joined again under a different name(s). And there are people who have posted just a few times, got the info they needed, and never posted again. I don't know if Rebecca can somehow use the board software/settings to delete non-active members after X amount of time. My thoughts on that :smile:

 

But the pet food manufacturers don't know that. ;-)

 

Got some info from Purina Canada! Will update tonight when I'm home.

 

Lol :lol: True. And that's only for FDMB. There are other diabetic cat boards and groups out there.

 

Stella and Chewy's answered with info as attachment to email, trying to figure how to copy it use iPad mostly and some things can't copy from.

Missy 3 months ago when nap interrupted

 

Ok, so I have a question about ingredients...I called Purina today and got the 'as fed' for 4 of the 6 pate varieties we have here. I am guessing that they are similar to the Classics in the US. Here are the ingredients for both, the US from the FF website, and the Canadian from the can.

FF Classic Turkey & Giblets Feast
Turkey, liver, meat by-products, turkey broth, poultry giblets, artificial and natural flavors, guar gum, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, magnesium sulfate, taurine, zinc sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, Vitamin E supplement, ferrous sulfate, niacin, manganese sulfate, calcium pantothenate, Vitamin A supplement, copper sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfite complex (source of Vitamin K activity), pyridoxine hydrochloride, riboflavin supplement, Vitamin B-12 supplement, biotin, folic acid, Vitamin D-3 supplement, potassium iodide.

FF Turkey & Giblets Feast Pate
Turkey, liver, meat by-products, turkey broth, poultry giblets, artificial and natural flavors, guar gum, calcium phosphate, potassium chloride, salt, magnesium sulfate, minerals, taurine, vitamins.

Do you think that these are the same food? They have the same guaranteed analysis. The one from Canada just says it is imported for Purina Canada, so I am suspecting it is made in the US.

I am calling back tomorrow to get info on the other flavours, they were super helpful and willing to give me the info...they did try and promote the DM products once they found out I have an FD kitty lol

 

Val, it sure sounds like different labeling requirements to me.

Do your cans also list everything in French? If so, they may not have to list ingredients after a certain point so that everything will fit on the label.

Suze

 

Hey Suze,
Yep everything must be bi-lingual here. Maybe that is why it just says vitamins and minerals, where US labels list the vitamins etc? Also, for whatever reason we only have 6 varieties here while on the US FF site there are 10 I think.

I'm guessing most of the foods we get are made in the US, but I will go to the pet store tomorrow for an info gathering session.

I do wonder why Purina is ignoring others who ask for info?!? Oh well, at least we got some! I got the feeling that they wouldn't email anything to me, but they gave me most info (fat, carbs, fibre, protein, moisture and calories) quite willingly over the phone. May have to call every couple of days and cross three or four off my list!

 

This is just a funny post...we need those sometimes!

Anyway, "Hey Suze" is how many people address me.

My mom moved to Arizona 8 years ago (I moved here 26-1/2 years ago), and when I would take her shopping, she would call out in the store, "Hey Suze..."

Considering our huge Hispanic population, and the popularity of the male name "Jesus" (pronounced hey-suze), it was very comical to see how many people responded to her.

So your greeting made me chuckle, a lot!

 

Thank you, Val, for your diligence and research, and trying to figure out the difference between the Canadian versions and the US versions, including the names.

You must have the magic touch when dealing with Purina. Then again, you did it via phone and I filled out an online form which someone probably immediately deleted. "Oh there's another nutty diabetic cat owner. They are so annoying! Delete."

I am so jazzed about updating these spreadsheets! You all rock!

Suze

 

Can you download the attachment from the email to the iPad and then attach to your FDMB post? If not, do you have access to a regular computer? If the file is too large to attach to a FDMB post and copy/paste directly into a post messes up the format, you could upload it to Google as a document and then publish and share the link.

 

I actually finally got an answer about the 3 flavors of fancy feast. Apparently 6 months is the magic number for a response. They did not provide the number of calories or the phosphorus values like I asked, but the phosphorus should be updated on Tanya's CRF site, and calories I think might be on the web site...I'll have to look.

We appreciate your patience. Below we have listed the as fed values for the products that you have requested. As fed depicts the value of the nutrient that is available "as is" in the food. These values are determined by laboratory assay and are the values of the nutrient when fed to the pet.
Fancy Feast(r) Gourmet Cat Food Classic Tender Beef Feast(tm):
Fat: 7.2%
Protein: 12.5%
Fiber: 0.1%
Ash: 2.6%
Moisture: 76.5%

Fancy Feast(r) Gourmet Cat Food Classic Savory Salmon Feast(tm):
Fat: 7.2%
Protein: 12.3%
Fiber: 0.1%
Ash: 2.8%
Moisture: 76.5%

Fancy Feast(r) Gourmet Cat Food Classic Tender Beef & Chicken Feast(tm):
Fat: 7.6%
Protein: 11.9%
Fiber: 0.1%
Ash: 2.6%
Moisture: 76.5%

 

FYI to all:

Cheryl emailed me the .pdf files from Stella & Chewy's last night. Haven't had time to do anything with them, though.

While I haven't uploaded an update yet, I did do some work on the SS last night. I split canned food and raw into separate sheets, to make it easier and since we'll be adding more raw data.

I haven't figured out how to indicate that an item is "new" to the spreadsheets, or how to deal with what might be a name change with ingredient/value change. For example, is the FF Chunky Chopped Grill Feast the same as the old Chopped Grill Feast? All the numbers changed, so I have no clue. I marked the values all in pink (indicating change) just to alert anyone who purchases this flavor to look at the new numbers. I don't want to add any more columns if I don't have to, because I now have it set up to print landscaped on 8-1/2" x 11" paper, to make it portable for those food shopping expeditions (especially to compare ingredients).

I thank everyone who has been contacting the manufacturers and sharing the data! :YMHUG:

Suze

 

Julia: Excellent! Thank you for the three more FF classics that can now be updated!

Suze

 

Hi, Suze and Everyone ~

Haven't been around much lately due to heavy, crazy work schedule, but I LOVE how you're updating the cat food nutritional information list! That's great, Suze!

I wanted you to know that I just phoned Purina US at 1-800-778-7462 and had a long chat with Jackie in their Customer Service Department. I explained that we're in the process of updating our cat food list and that we're not getting much cooperation from Purina. I gave her the URL to Janet & Binky's web site so the Purina nutritionist can see what we're working on. I did tell Jackie that we'll indicate "Manufacturer refuses to provide information" when we're unable to obtain the requested nutritional information, then cat food buyers can decide which foods to purchase.

Since Jackie has to turn over any consumer requests for nutritional information to their nutritionist, I told Jackie that we'd like the nutritional breakdown for Purina's full Fancy Feast and Friskies lines. But I also added that since I didn't think that much information would be forthcoming (for now, anyway) that we'd appreciate the breakdown on all of their Fancy Feast Classic Entrees and all of their Friskies Classic Pates.

As a long-time Purina customer, I told Jackie how disappointed I am in Purina's non-cooperation and that "as fed" nutritional information isn't readily available for their products. I asked for the name of a cat food division manager and a mailing address. She did not (would not?) give me a name but did give me this mailing address:
Purina
Cat Food Division
P.O. Box 1326
Wilkes-Barre, PA 18703

Maybe members of FDMB could draft a letter to mail to Purina? We might get better response by doing that instead of emailing.

Again, great job, Suze, and everyone contributing updates!

Eva

 

Eva, you're welcome, and I say that from everyone who has been working on this update.

And thank you for contacting Purina and having a long chat with Customer Service. Maybe they will realize that the owners of diabetic cats spend way too much time and money battling this disease to feed our cats anything that is going to cause BG problems, and that they can actually increase sales if they are forthcoming with their information.

Suze

 

To everyone reading this thread:

While I adore the fact that many have jumped in to help contact the food manufacturers because we all want this updated information, I think we need to do this systematically, and we have to be careful what we say, so we don't cause a manufacturer to supply false numbers for the sake of sales and to the detriment of our cats. Yes, I could see this happening, because how would we know that this info was falsified, unless our cats start developing higher BG numbers? We can't trust the FDA...that is for sure.

Systematically: If you see in the above posts that someone/a few have been in contact with a manufacturer, you don't need to contact them. If I need to make up a list of who is contacting what company, I will, to make it easier than hunting through this entire thread. Actually, I think I will do this so that anyone else who wants to volunteer their time to do some research can select another food manufacturer to contact. Hope everyone agrees with this!

What to say during initial contact: I think the personal pity approach works best, initially, with large corporations, as in "My cat was recently diagnosed with feline diabetes and I'm trying to reduce his carb intake dramatically and feed him canned food only." Then, depending on the company and the price of their food, I might add, "I'm on a tight budget and have always fed my cats (insert brand name of their canned food) but need to check what varieties you offer that are less than 10% KCal of carbs. I have a formula to figure this out, if you would send me the as-fed percentages on the following ingredients: Protein, Fat, Carbs, Fiber, Phospherous, Magnesium, Calcium, Ash and Moisture. What would also help me tremendously would be the size of the can and the calories per that size of can, as well as the list of ingredients at the time of the as-fed numbers were generated, so that I can watch for ingredient changes down the road."

No response weeks after initial contact? This would be the time to start pulling out the big guns. Not initially. Now would be the time to bring up that you are not only researching this for yourself, but also for 4,999 other board members (don't mention the board name) who are trying to share information about available low-carb canned cat food. You can be positive and mention how knowing which varieties they manufacture meet our stringent "less than 10% KCal from carbs" could actually increase their sales. Still be postive. Don't threaten them that they will be notated as "not supplying data". Only WE need to know that any company not willing to supply this data will be marked as such on our SS. We want these companies to be friends with us, and to realize that there is a large market out there for low-carb (and low-fat) canned cat food!

Over time, I am hoping that, if we have designated contacts with various cat food manufacturers, and they are able to develop a GOOD relationship, information will be forthcoming down the road, which will enable us to keep this SS up-to-date more easily, without discovering changes were made to the formulas after our cat's BG levels went bonkers. That would be the ideal, right? A warning in advance instead of dealing with higher BG numbers in a reaction to a change?

Anyone have any input on what I typed above? I can't think of everything, no matter how hard I try, so input is very welcome!

Suze

 

Ok, here is my input!

Love the idea of a desginated person to contact manufacturers - not only will we hopefully get a better relationship with them, it is less daunting for the person making contact. Also if we split the larger ones up to a couple of people, they may be more willing to give out info on 4 or 5 varieties instead of 37! And obviousy it prevents duplication of info, especially when they are less than forthcoming.. it seems like they are guarding the Caramilk secret :lol:

Personally I think a phone call is the way to go (vs. email) again it makes it more personal. Pity or slight ignorance seems to work too. When I called, I said "my vet has directed me to feed less than 10% carbs, but I don't see that on the can...also I would need the as fed values for protein fat etc'

I also think that leaving FDMB out of the initial conversation may help. They will help individuals more than large groups, also they don't have the info readily availlable (not that I agree with that) so they may be leery of someone saying 'give me this info and I am going to post it on the internet for all to see'

Make sure we thank the person too! I profusely thanked them for being helpful and guiding me to the right product for my cat. I had to listen to a bit of a pitch about Purina Dm at the end, but it was worth it because I got my info!

Those are my two (or three) cents!
Val

PS

I almost spit coffee on my laptop! I was in a restaurant once, and you had to give your name with your order, they would call you when it was your turn to 'dress' your burger...the teenager serves the person in front of me..shouts "Jesus, what do you want on your burger?" with complete innocence (or ignorance) I laugh to this day abiut it! :lol:

 

I got a call back from Purina Customer Service late yesterday. The customer service rep told me that Purina always makes information available to individual customers if they want nutritional information on only a few products. It might make sense to have individual members each request information on 4 or 5 Purina products. Worth a try anyway. It has taken Julia and me about six months to get the information we requested, but maybe that time frame will improve.

Eva

 

All excellent points, Val!

As for leaving out FDMB...I don't think we should ever mention the bulletin board name as we aren't representing this bulletin board, we are representing those of us who are interested in updated nutritional values. But I do think it's fine to mention that you do belong to a bulletin board dedicated to feline diabetes and there are thousands of members looking for verified low-carb canned cat food to purchase. You could even mention that there are some pet food manufacturers out there who make this information readily available via their websites (EVO is one example). Again, always try to make the information positive, not a threat.

Don't know when I'll get the list made up of who is contacting what company...very busy these days!

Suze

 

Excellent information, Eva. And hopefully that time frame WILL improve, like you stated.

Suze

 

Just wanted to mention that BJ asked Rebecca about identifying ourselves as members of this board, and Rebecca said "yes" if it would help.

http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=54680
BJ's posting on 10/21/11:

Re: It's like pulling teeth dealing with Nestlé Purina...
by BJM » Fri Oct 21, 2011 3:07 pm

I asked Rebecca if it was OK to identify ourselves as members of this message board, and she said yes.

It may help to mention we have 3948 users listed as members of our board as of 10/21/2011 6:05 pm (I looked under the group "Registered Users" to get that number)

So, perhaps start with this:
"I am writing on behalf of the Feline Diabetes Message Board, a group number nearly 4,000. We would like ...."

If you think it will help get info.

 

Some independent pet stores/boutiques have pet food reps come in to promote the product and give away free (dry food) samples. Pet shows/fairs are another good place to find pet food company reps. I know that a local annual health expo has a Wellness booth and a few other pet related companies/organizations. This is another way to talk directly to a company's rep and ask about getting as fed values for the products, and maybe even take it as an opportunity to educate the rep about proper nutrition and why low carbs are best for diabetic cats but it is so hard to find suitable foods because the nutrition info on the labels are useless.

 

Pumbaa, this is long overdue! Thank you for taking it on. I have a couple of calls out for some new foods I've found, one looks really promising. I'll let you know when/if I hear back. For new foods you could just change the background color of the cell to make it stand out.

This is always so confusing when you start out. Some times slightly different terms are used adding to the confusion, for example some site have a "Nutritional Analysis" which is usually the same as As Fed.

Here is what the different types of numbers mean:

• Guaranteed Analysis - this is what the pet food mfg are allowed to get away with on their cans. Since some are max and some min it is impossible to use them to do any calculations of carbs, which they are not required to list.
  As Fed - Actual numbers from a one time test (no guaranteed that they won't vary though :evil: ), these can be used to make the calculations and although carbs often aren't included they can be calculated, just add all the %s up and subtract from 100 what is left is the % carbs.
  Dry Matter - this is the % of each ingredient without moisture, subtract the As Fed moisture from 100 and multiply the other listed ingredients by the result. This is the % that Tanya's list uses for Phosphorus.
  Metabolized Energy - this is the % of calories from protein, fat and carbs (these are the only three things that have a caloric value). This is the most accurate listing for carbs, it is what Janet and Binky's list shows and what Dr. Lisa refers to. This is where the headache factor kick in, trust the SS for the calculations. ohmygod_smile

Bottom line is that you want use the Metabolized Energy numbers, but the As Fed is usually what we can get as a start for our calculations. It is the ME numbers that you seeing talked about on this board.

 

Here is the missing data for the three FF flavors--less than 2 days this time! surprising!

Fancy Feast(r) Gourmet Cat Food Classic Tender Beef Feast(tm):
Phosphorus: 0.48%
Calories: 30.99 cals/per oz.

Fancy Feast(r) Gourmet Cat Food Classic Savory Salmon Feast(tm):
Phosphorus: 0.44%
Calories: 30.66 cals/per oz.

Fancy Feast(r) Gourmet Cat Food Classic Tender Beef & Chicken Feast(tm):
Phosphorus: 0.46%
Calories: 31.66 cals/per oz.

 

You are so welcome, and thank YOU for your explanation of the food values!

And I really have to thank everyone here who has dedicated time to helping us update this nutritional information.

Suze

 

Thank you, Eva (and BJM for posing the question to Rebecca).

I knew I had read that somewhere, but I appreciate your hunting it down and reposting it.

The operative words are "if it would help".

Because we don't want to cause Rebecca any time defending what is posted by us on her boards, I still think it's a good idea to not state FDMB if you don't have to. I think that, if the manufacturers know that there are nearly 6,000 people looking for updated carb/protein/fat KCal values so they can purchase foods that are good for their cats, that should be sufficient.

Yes? No?

Suze

 

Totally agree!

I really think if we inquire as cat mama #1 they will be more willing to help! Like I said before, I think they may hesitate (especially if it is just a front line customer service person) when we indicate that we will be sharing the info with so many people. Don't get me wrong, the info should and needs to be readily available, but I also don't think we should advertise that we are posting it on a public internet forum!

 

Thank you so much, Julia!

Suze

 

Ann - thanks for the clarification! You're right, it's hard to keep everything straight

 

Julia, I'm trying to update these flavors now, but am missing the 'as-fed' carbs. That is a crucial part of the formula to figure the KCal values.

So sorry that I didn't look at this sooner. I just didn't have time.

The below is not directed at you...it's general info for everyone to make this process smoother. I will also make this a separate post.



***********
Again, what I need to update the spreadsheet is:

As-fed values for:
Protein
Fat
Carbs
Fiber
Phospherous
Magnesium
Calcium
Ash
Moisture
Also the size of the can and the calories per that size of can.

Don't forget, we also need the ingredients (in the order listed on the can) at the time the above values were given, otherwise people won't be able to compare the ingredients down the road and have a flag go up alerting them that if the ingredients changed, the values are probably incorrect, too.
*****************

Suze

 

What is needed to update the nutritional info - please read!

Again, what I need to update the spreadsheet is:

As-fed values for:
Protein
Fat
Carbs
Fiber
Phospherous
Magnesium
Calcium
Ash
Moisture
Also the size of the can and the calories per that size of can.

Don't forget, we also need the ingredients (in the order listed on the can) at the time the above values were given, otherwise people won't be able to compare the ingredients down the road and have a flag go up alerting them that if the ingredients changed, the values are probably incorrect, too.
*****************

Before anyone posts any updates here, please make sure that you received the above requirements. If not, please don't post until you can supply all of the above values. That way, I don't have to bounce from post to post looking for updates for all of the info needed for the spreadsheet, and this will reduce confusion as well..

Better yet, instead of posting here, how about sending me a PM with the vetted (as in you verified that it's what we need) information, so I can input it in the SS, and instead of clogging up this thread with info that may not be very useful?

I just want to make this process manageable! And cause everyone involved much less work by knowing exactly what is needed to update this spreadsheet.

Suze

 

Suze, if you add the As Fed: protein + Fat + Fiber + Ash + Moisture and subtract the result from 100, you get the As Fed carbs %. We can't do that w/ the GA numbers on the cans because they are max/ min, but it works for the As Fed numbers. Since AAFCO doesn't require listing of carbs, many companies don't have it available even as As Fed.

 

Ann, thank you! I did not know that!

Suze

 

I contacted a Nutrition Specialist at Nutro for the as fed numbers of the dry and canned foods. She said she would get the numbers for me today.

 

I disappear for a few days and my prayers are answered! Thank for doing this!
:RAHCAT :RAHCAT

 

Squeem: Thank you for contacting Nutro!

Tyger & George: You're welcome...from everyone working on this joint effort! It won't be finished overnight, but at least we're starting on getting the updates!


Suze

 

Didn't realize they didn't provide the carbs. I did ask for it. *sigh* Just sent another email to them.

Just a note---while the Calcium and Magnesium are nice to have, you don't need them to figure out the content. Many food companies may not be able to supply these two, but they will supply the others.

Edit: Nevermind. I see someone else got you the formula--I'm tired today and I forgot that the carbs need to be figured from the other values. :roll:

 

Suze know I forwarded the reply from Stella and Chewy's contact as well as their comment the next day that it's for individual use not for public posting confused_cat cat(2)_steam Geesh we all are individuals... Anyway she said would soon be available on site. I don't think I will ever get the math down to calculate things.

As struggling with personal stressors before all this tend to vacillate between I have to do this (paperwork or whatever) and I cant deal with this... Past weeks been where I am stuck. I pushed past it in desperation before, hitting the wall.
When confused tend to get stuck, have you crunched numbers that I sent you?

 

Cheryl & Everyone:

Hurt my back last week doing yard work...can't sit at the computer for more than 15 minutes without excruciating pain. So I haven't had the time to work on the ss anymore. I did get some numbers input, but haven't done a new upload yet. Patience, please.

Suze

 

Just did an upload to the SS tonight, so your old links will no longer work. Go here https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AmkyagqUb3nudHlidjRqZjYtdmFFcXlzZWt4WUYxYmc#gid=1 for an updated SS.

There are some updated values and updated ingredients...look in the "date of update" column for new information.

Sometimes we don't get the information we ask for from the manufacturers, as I received grams of fat/fiber, etc., instead of as-fed values from Trader Joe's on their Tuna for Cats. I don't know how to to translate that info, so fields are not filled in. I have emailed them again for the values we need for this chart. Please, don't post your responses from manufacturers here. That will just confuse matters. Verify that they gave you the info you requested, then pm me with the data. I'd rather this thread was used for detailing who is contacting what manufacturer, and for any questions/comments on the new spreadsheet.

Since FF Classics are so popular here, I have now updated their ingredients, but you will see "old Binkys" or "old 2010" in the date updated column as the information was taken from older charts and still needs to be verified. But I'm trying to tell you where the info came from.

What a huge project this is! Sorry that my back problems caused me to not be able to do any of this earlier. Don't worry, I am still very dedicated to this project! And I thank everyone for attempting to get accurate info!

Suze

ps: If you don't see ingredients listed, the information was from the old "Pet Food Nutritional Values - August 2010" SS and hasn't been updated.

 

Can you publish the spreadsheet and get the correct link to share? The ccc link is viewable but there's other stuff on the page, like the grayed out Google toolbar, that really doesn't need to be there. Go to File and then Publish As A Web page.

I'm still waiting to hear from Nutro :? The person I contacted had to escalate the question up the chain somewhere so it might take awhile to get a response.

Are numbers needed for Blue Buffalo?

 

If I publish as a web page are people going to be able to print it easily? I kept it as a SS so that people can download, print and take with them to the store. I'll try it your way, though.

Here is the published to the web version: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AmkyagqUb3nudHlidjRqZjYtdmFFcXlzZWt4WUYxYmc&output=html. What I don't like about it is that the table headers now don't stay at the top, making it more difficult to see what column is what.

Yes, we need updated numbers for Blue Wilderness varieties. The other "Blue" canned foods seemed too high in carbs to worry about right now. Thank you if you're volunteering, squeem.

Suze

 

I think there's a way to lock the header so that it doesn't move while one scrolls through the res tof the SS. I'll do a test later and let you know.

The published SS will print just fine. Just select the landscape option instead of the portrait option.

I'll see if I can get updated numbers for the Wilderness ones.

 

I know you can lock the header row if you publish as as spreadsheet, but I'm fairly certain that that won't work if you publish as a web page (I do web design for a living).

But let me know if you can get that to work! I can learn new tricks.

I do want people to be able to download the spreadsheet, and use it however works best for them. If there are foods they will never purchase, they can easily delete those rows, and keep just what they want to look into, and print out that data to have available when they go pet food shopping.

I know that a huge problem I had with purchasing canned and raw cat food after the diagnosis was going through all of the various charts and spreadsheets, with information that was dated years ago, and writing down the names of those that sounded perfect, only to see ingredients like sweet potatoes in the 4th position on the ingredients list. That caused me to reject those foods because I had no way of knowing that those ingredients hadn't been added recently, which would have negated the KCal percentages I based my purchasing list on (especially for carbs).

That's really why I want this SS to be downloadable and printable, so that we can compare ingredients when we go to the store, and people can alert us when the ingredients change. If the ingredients change, the other information may change as well.

Thank you, for trying to get the updated Blue Wilderness numbers!

Suze

 

What I did with Binky's charts a couple years ago was get an Excel copy of the chart from Janet. Then I made edits to my copy and put all the suitable low carb foods for a few different brands that I wanted to try together and noted comments about ingredients (from pet food web sites) next to them. I pinted off just the section with the low carb foods and took the print out to the store. It fit nicely on one sheet of paper so easy to carry around in a bag :smile:

Anyone can download the Hobo's chart to an Excel file and do the same :smile: But it only works with the non-publshed version SS because you can acess File in the Google toolbar and the Download As option from there.

Is it possible to put the any of the food charts/lists on an app? It would make it much easier to tote to the store :smile: This would be a good topic for Think Tank.

I no longer have a diabetic but I'm still checking out pet food ingredients lists for my civies ohmygod_smile Having a diabetic just makes you realize that so many pet foods contain filler high carb and even usless ingredients.

I emailed someone at Blue Buffal for the Wilderness numbers Will probably get a response next week sometime.

 

An app for smart phones would be great. But if there is an app where you can view an Excel spreadsheet, that would work, too. I can't test this out 'cause I still have a "stupid" phone. *LOL*

Here's a page of Android apps that will allow people to view the SS on their smart phones: http://www.androidauthority.com/top-12-free-android-apps-for-productivity-15127/.

If there's an app for Android, I would think there would be an app like this for the iPhone as well.

 

Nutro's response is everything on the label is on an "as fed" basis confused_cat And the person also said I believe this means that the ingredients listed on the bags are already listed by weight before they're dried. I'm not sure how this applies to cans however, since the food is not dried? If I understand correctly, "as-fed" means weight before drying, so not sure how this applies to canned food as it is wet.

Is there anything specific I need to say regarding what "as fed" numbers are?

 

Squeem, I'm not quite sure. I'm sure it was explained somewhere but will take me some time to hunt it down. Maybe someone else who understands this can explain to the rest of us? Please?

Suze

 

I have Quickoffice (free) on my android phone. I looked in the Apple Appstore, and I couldn't find a free app, but there is one that will let you open "xls" files and a bunch of others called "PDF Word Excel File Viewer" for 99 cents.

Carl

 

I updated the SS with ingredients for some stuff tonight/this morning, and added Weruva to the list. I also emailed Weruva for as fed values.

The updates I did to the SS aren't published yet...waiting for more info before I upload a new version.

Updating this SS is kinda like dealing with a diabetic cat...it's a marathon, not a sprint.

Suze

 

FWIW, we have more options in the "ccc" form than the "pub" form for downloading. I like it that way, if there is a little more stuff you don't want at the top, eliminate it when you down load. I can copy rows from the "ccc" version and just paste them in a SS in my program (Machead here and I use Numbers not Excel) on my computer. I can't do that from the pub version. However, I can copy it and paste it into a word processing program and edit as I might need. Or save it as a PDF, lots of free mobil apps for that. Takes less space too.

One thing that i would suggest is changing the background color for some of the most commonly checked values columns for quick reference. You use different colors in the header row, just continue it down through the sheet, although that may not work when you have rows w/ merged cells in between. How about putting the ingredients in a column rather than a separate row. It would keep all the values for the rest of the info lined up w/out the breaks and be easier to compare.

I have info on the line of refrigerated foods being carried at PetsMart now. The email is on the other computer. i have to switch over and send it from there.

 

Ann, thank you for the input!

I agree about having more options when it remains a SS instead of in the "pub" format, especially having the header row stay in place while you scroll down.

I had put the ingredients below the values because the SS is set up to print on landscaped 8-1/2 x 11 paper, so people can easily print whatever data they are interested in and take it to the store with them. If I put the ingredients in another column, the SS wouldn't print correctly.

I can color any values that would be of help. Even with merged cells, coloring specific cells would be relatively easy as I do the edits. But...I am coloring cells when values have changed to alert people that there was a change. With the header row remaining in place, do you still think it's necessary to color the most commonly checked values? And are the most commonly checked values all of the KCal percentages, or what other values do most people check regularly? (Right now, I am only concerned with the KCal protein, fat and carbs...but that's me and I know others look at calories and phosphorous, etc.)

I hope everyone chimes in here because this SS is for all of us, and input is welcome.

Suze

 

Here's the info I got for the Freshpet Vital complete Meal Cat Food. It is in the refrigerated cooler at PetSmart. It actually looks pretty good.:

Here's the link. And the ingredients"

I can see why you have the ingredients in a new row and I hadn't noticed the different background color for new values. You are doing a great job! Peeps can adjust it themselves for their personal preferences once they download it.

 

Great job, Ann! Is Freshpet considered raw? Slightly cooked? It doesn't say on the packaging or on the website.

Suze

 

Bumping this because I was searching for it to use before my Petco shopping trip today (misplaced my list from last time) and figured someone else might need it also. This is a great resource and includes some foods not on the Janet and Binky list and more up to date information... any chance of making it a sticky?

 

Shadycat, so glad that you are finding this updated list useful! When I get a chance to upload a new update, I'll start a new thread and ask Rebecca to make it a sticky.

Suze

 

I am now inputting the Weruva information into the Hobo's Guide to Nutritional Values, and have to tell you that this stuff isn't as low carb as they would like us to believe.

I just emailed them again, for some clarification, as their estimated as-fed values do not match the as-fed values I get when I subtract protein, fat, fiber, as and moisture from 100%.

What I questioned was that their as-fed values are averages based on several batches, while other manufacturers simply test one batch and give the as-fed values for that particular batch, even though other batches might have different as-fed values.

I think I'd rather know the as-fed values based on averages, rather than being given the best as-fed values that they found. At least with the averages, Weruva is acknowledging that there are differences in the numbers they report and what we might be feeding our cats.

This is nasty when we are trying to control the carb contents of our FD cat's diets!

Suze