Vet switched Linus from Novin N to ProZinc, need urgent help

Discussion in 'Prozinc / PZI' started by Susan Jacobson, Jul 17, 2016.

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  1. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I ha started a thread and was directed to post here where the Pro Zinc experts would be. Linus was diagnosed 3 years ago and used Novolin N for the entire time, we had good success for the first 2 years, since then it has been a roller coaster ride. The vet finally switched him to ProZinc, but trying to get the dosage so he does not drop too low or get too high is difficult. We are cat people, we have 7, Linus is 14, his mother Abbey is 17, Frank Sinatra 11, Blondie 11, Molly 11, Cleopatra 11, Garfield 6, he was found in the back of a delivery truck at 3 weeks old, we got him through pneumonia, and he had mega colon so his colon has been removed. Our kids are grown and have families of their own, our cats are our family. We lived in the country for years, and plan to do so again soon, when we did, people were always dropping cats off , we would take them in , bring them to the vet to get fixed and healthy, inoculations, vitamins etc and adopt them out for free. We are not strangers to medical needs and hands on care, but this diabetes has thrown us for a loop. Linus has lost so much weight he is skin and bones, I fear for him right now and need help to get him healthy and managed. I will be providing a spread sheet when someone helps me make one. We started the ProZinc on Thursday Morning July 14th, this is the data I have compiled thus far... A couple questions first please, what is the idea number for his BS I am shooting for so he can gain some weight? The vet gave us some wet and dry W/D Digestive/weight management, would this not make him lose more weight? He is not a big eater per meal, but grazes every couple hours per day. I do have open feeding with 7 cats with dry food, I have Cat Naturals and Kitten Chow as those were the higher protein foods I could find in our price range. Linus eats mostly wet food, Fancy feast chicken, turkey and giblets, chicken and liver, and some Friskies turkey and giblets. He will eat a bit of dry but not more than a couple times per day, and approximately 5 to 6 pieces per time. Here is the data:

    Blood sugar morning 376, gave him 1 UN Prozinc;
    1 hr after shot BS 313
    2 hrs 343
    3 hrs 285
    4 hrs 297
    6 hrs 252
    Keep in mind he is a grazer so this is not going to be easy.

    Evening Blood sugar 381, gave him 1.5 as we thought his daily numbers were a bit high
    1 hr after shot 329
    3 hrs 215
    6 hrs 190

    Day 2:
    BS 349, we gave him 1.5 UN, still trying to get him between the 120-170 that he should be at, is this the right range, will he gain weight as he needs to badly?
    2 hrs after shot 247
    4 hrs 136
    6 hrs 98, we gave some wet food and few drops of Karo as we thought below 100 was not good.
    15 minute check after the wet food with the Karo BS is 113
    7 hrs 200

    Evening BS 308, we gave him 3/4 of 1 UN
    got up 4 hrs later to check him and BS was 190

    Day 3:
    BS was 363, we gave him 1 UN as we feared he would drop too low like the day before
    3 hrs after shot 150BS
    4 hrs 98, gave a few drops of Karo in wet food again as he was below 100.
    5 hrs 116
    6 hrs 120

    Evening:
    BS was 381, we gave 3/4 of 1 U
    3 hrs after shot 330
    5 1/2 hrs 317

    Today thus far:
    BS 329, we gave him 1/2 U ( .5)
    2 hrs after shot 312
    4 hrs 300
    6 hrs 347
    8 1/2 hrs 382
    I use a human blood sugar meter Relion Confirm, we had the same tester for 3 years so we just went and bought another to make sure we were getting the correct readings, they us .3 blood, and don't seem to bother Linus too much. Will this give the correct readings for a cat? We love this meter, happy we bought the same one.
    With the Novolin N , he had been on it so long we had a cheat sheet we used to know within 10 BS points what dose to give him, with this new insulin I am worried we will not get him regulated, he has lost SO much weight, I have to get some weight on him, any suggestions and help will be more than appreciated. Thank you :) Anxiously awaiting a reply in Minnesota.
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2016
    Reason for edit: typo
  2. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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  3. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Hi Susan! Welcome to the ProZinc forum. We're a small, friendly group. Quick note, if you ever have an emergency situation, post both here and on Health so you can have lots of eyes on the situation.

    I have read your thread on the intro forum. I'd like to know what meter you are using. Is it the Alpha Trak 2 or a human meter? Either is fine, but the number ranges are different depending on which.

    I will say that on EITHER meter, 98 isn't too low. It's a really nice number actually. On the pet meter, you want to worry around 68..human meter 50.

    He's actually look really good. I know it may not seem it, but you've had some lovely lower numbers in the last few days. I know Sue suggested maybe 1.25 units and I think that would be a great dose. Obviously the doses under 1 unit haven't been enough. I think 1.25 would keep him in good ranges and help you feel comfortable that he wouldn't go too low.

    To answer your question about numbers. Basically, for regulation, you are looking for yellow preshots (which are in the 200 range) and double digit nadirs (mid cycle) that don't go below 68 on the pet meter or 50 on a human meter. That's regulation. From there, we work on possible remission.

    I know that the weight is a concern, but as he gets regulated on insulin, he is probably going to gain weight much more easily. His body will be able to use the food more efficiently and it will help. I know you said he free feeds and that's fine (mine all do too). However, the prescription food the vet gave you isn't necessary. It's not very high quality and very few people here use it. A low carb wet food is best.

    I don't want to overwhelm you, Susan, so I'm going to leave it at that for now. I think 1.25 is the dose I would give if he was mine. What questions do you have for us? We're happy to help in any way we can!

    Most important thing of all: Breathe. It's going to be okay. You're not alone in this, and we have all been there...and are here for you.
     
  4. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    It is a human one, we always used the relion confirm so we bought a new one it uses .3 for blood sample. It was recommended by the vet as well.
     
  5. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    Aug 25, 2013
    Sounds great! We usually use that meter around here too. Some folks use other meters, but the relion tends to have the cheapest strips with the smallest blood sample. I love that your vet suggested it. Mine did too, but most vets don't. It's nice that another one out there has sense!

    With the relion, hypo range starts at 50. So really his numbers have been great.
     
  6. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Perfect! 1.25 U
     
  7. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Hey, Susan. Glad you made it over here. I think I covered most everything in my post to you on the Welcome Forum. Glad to see Rachel thinks 1.25 may be a good dose also.

    This is a small forum but most of us have notifications for people who post on it so we should find you. You might have to wait awhile to get an answer so if it's an emergency, post on Health also.

    Take some time to read some of the threads here and look at other people's spreadsheets so you can see how they are dosing ProZinc.
     
  8. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Thank you, I will be interested in seeing the spread sheets of others. :)
     
  9. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Linus is so cute!!!!
     
  10. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    I am using the conversion chart for U40 needles to U100's because they are smaller, the closest to a 1.25 would be a 1.2 is that correct?
     
  11. AbyResq

    AbyResq Member

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    Feb 28, 2016
    Hi Susan, just wanted to say welcome. 98 is great!
     
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  12. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes, 1.2 is fine.

    When you look at other's spreadsheets, remember that every cat is different and what works for one won't necessary work for another. But checking them out will help you see the possibilities and how having data helps people make dosing decisions.

    Have you see the protocol we put together for ProZinc? It is in my signature in blue.
     
  13. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Susan, Marji sent you a private message about helping with your spreadsheet. It is in the upper right hand corner of this page. She can fix you up.
     
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  14. Ruby&Baco

    Ruby&Baco Well-Known Member

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    Apr 21, 2016
    Hi Susan and Linus and welcome!
    I'm also part of the prozinc group/family:) if you have any questions, don't hesitate!
    I'm from the netherlands and in a different timezone what maybe come in handy for you if it's the middle of the night for you or something like that;)!
    :bighug:
     
  15. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I did a weigh in for Linus last night and he is down to 6 lbs 8 ozs, we was at 7 lbs the night before we started the pro zinc ( human insulin). I don't know what to think at this point, he is far more active, up and walking around more than when he was on the Novolin, eating about the same and same foods, but still losing weight. He is sticking to me like glue which tells me something is not right. He has been reading the higher 300's and lower 400's before shots so we have increased his Pro Zinc to 1.4 for the higher 3oo's and 1.6 for the lower 400's bs readings. I don't know what else I can do, but I am scared he is not going to make it. Any suggestions would be great.
     
  16. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    If someone know what canned food I could give him that has highest calories and low carbs so I can get some weight on him that would be great. I do have a list I found online, but would much rather hear from someone who may have gone through this themselves. He would need a pate' not any chunks or shreads. Thank you :)
     
  17. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    The first thing I would do is breathe, long deep breaths. You and he haven't been at this long. It will take his body awhile to learn to use the insulin efficiently. You are on a good insulin; he is on a tiny bit of insulin and his numbers are not awful. I assume the numbers you gave were before shot numbers? Do you have any tests in that 5-7 hour range? Those tests will show you how low the insulin takes him; it makes it much easier to adjust the dose if you know how the insulin is working midcycle.

    I know Marji offered to fix you up with a spreadsheet. It is really hard for us to understand what is happening with his numbers without the history of doses/levels. Was there some issue with joining Goggle? The spreadsheet is a google document and being on google allows all of us to view it, when you want help. Can I encourage you to get back with her and get a spreadsheet set up?

    It sounds like one of your biggest concerns is his weight? There are higher calorie, lower carb foods. You could post on the Health forum for ideas or go to the food chart we use. Check the carb column (8-10% and under) and the calorie column (farthest over to the right) and see what looks good. You can also add some protein to his food; lots of people supplement with baked chicken (no spices). http://catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf
     
  18. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Hi Susan - Natures Logic canned food is low carb and relatively high calorie
     
  19. billysmom (GA)

    billysmom (GA) Member

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    The wellness grain free pates are higher calorie.
     
  20. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    It's going to be all right Susan! We're here to help. As Sue said...breathe. You're not alone in this.
     
  21. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    I went to WalMart and the local grocery store in the small town we live in ( population 3,000) they had nothing in the way of wet food except fancy feast, so I stocked up more of that. At the local grocery store I found a new dry food called Diamond naturals : Protein 40%, Crude fat 20%, crude fiber 3%, moisture 10%,Zinc 150 mg/kg, Selinium 0.3 mg/kg,vitamin E 150 IU/kg, taurine 0.1%, omega 6 fatty acids 6%, Omega 3 fatty acids 0.05%, DHA 0.05%. 4000kcal/kg(400kcal/cup) Calculated metabolizable energy. The ingredients are : chicken meal, ground white rice, chicken fat, natural flavor, fish meal, flaxseed, salmon oil ( DHA),dried chickory root, dried kelp, kale, chia seed, pumpkin, blueberries, oranges, coconut, spinach, carrots, papaya, yucca extract, vitamins and minerals.

    We bought this hoping the higher fat content would help him gain some weight, and noted that there was no corn or gluten or fake flavors or colors compared to the dry food he nibbles on here and there. Opinions please? This is 6% more protein and 7.5% more fat, it does not appear to have as much carb's as most dry foods. It is listed as Active cat chicken meal and rice.
     
  22. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    I don't know the carb count, but the first two ingredients sure have the potential to be high carb. The rest of the ingredients (spinach, papaya, pumpkin) aren't things cats need......

    If there is any way to get a wet low carb food that is more calories that would be the best of all worlds.
     
  23. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    It doesn't sound like that dry food is low enough in carbs -any thing with rice and other starches are no-nos. There are a few dry foods that are lower carbs - the best (in my opinion) is Young Again Zero Carb - you can only order it on-line https://www.youngagainpetfood.com If you call the 800 number they will send you free samples. The good thing about this food is that it is very calorie dense - 600 calories/cup) My cat used to eat it, but won't any more but when he did, it did not raise his blood sugar. The other dry food you will hear about is called Evo (can order on line or some boutique pet food stores sell it) it used to be very low carb but they changed their formula and now it is higher carb - it definitely raises my cat's blood sugar but it too is calorie dense with about 600 calories per cup) My cat can only eat super premium wet food so I have to order most of his food on-line
     
  24. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    The Diamond Naturals is high carb. As Sue said a low carb higher calorie wet food is best. If you have a Petsmart, Petco or Tractor Supply near you, you can get the Wellness GrainFree wet food, or order online. But if you must have dry, Young Again is low carb and high calorie. If you call the company they will send samples.
     
  25. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    The problem is the price of these foods, we can not afford that. :(
     
  26. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    I found an online calculator to determine the carbs in at foods, I came up with 17-19 % carbs in this dry food, the link to some high priced foods like W/D and others show 22 % carbs in them, confused. Here is the link... http://www.scheyderweb.com/cats/catfood.html
     
  27. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    With the Young Again, you feed much less as it is very concentrated calorie-/nutrition-wise.
     
  28. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    As BJ said, you feed less of the Young Again, so it's not as expensive as it seems. Having said that, I understand the cost thing. The Fancy Feast Classic is fine, as is Sheba Pates which are a bit cheaper at Walmart. How much are you feeding Linus?
     
  29. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    He eats 3 to 4 cans of Fancy Feast per day. I am trying to find a dry kibble because he is a all day and night grazer. I did notice that the dry we got ( which he loved immediately) has 10% less carbs than the Cat Naturals and Kitten Chow he is use to. I was excited about the higher fat for calorie count and hoping it would help him put a bit of weight on. The Kitten chow has 35% carbs, the new food has 19%. I liked that it had no corn which I know is useless to a cat. I basically want to give him a supplement to help him gain some weight, he never eats a lot of dry, just nibbles. We have 6 other cat family members so free range feeding is a must, although they all get wet food 2 times per day as well. I did notice that his bs tonight was 459, which is high for him by 50 to 60 points, if we can get him regulated he would benefit so much from the 20% fat in this food ... thats my trend of thought. A low carb high fiber food would not benefit his weight issue, am I looking at this the wrong way?
     
  30. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sometimes you have to make compromises. If your budget and circumstances mean you have to feed some dry food, then that's your reality. It's not only the carb count but also the dehydration factor, so make sure water is always available. It may mean that you have to give more insulin to counteract the higher carb.

    One option is that wet food can be left out for grazing. The drying out doesn't hurt as long as it is not too hot. Another option is to feed two meals a day, not leave out any food between meals. But again, you have to do what works for you - whatever you can do that is close to the ideal: wet low carb.
     
  31. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    I understand the multicat, kibble addicted grazers- I have 12 of them in my house! When Colin was diagnosed it took awhile to get a routine that they, and I, could deal with. At first nights were horrible, yowls and occasional fights, but now it's all quiet until T/F/S time @5AM. Then the fun begins! The kibble addicts get fed in a room with the door shut so Colin has no chance at their food, and I do a check for any spilled pieces before I open the door. The cats that eat the wet food eat in the kitchen with me watching so Colin gets his food and they get their Friskies. As Sue says, you'll have to decide what will work for you. If you go to the Young Again website, they have some dry food charts showing carb levels of some foods.
     
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  32. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Sue - when Murphy was eating Young Again, he only needed 1/3 cup a day - so one bag lasts months and months.
     
  33. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    We plan on ordering some of the young again, do we want the zero carbs? or start with the 5-6 % as I don't want to send his blood sugar in the ditch. He is an older cat 14, he benefits from the smaller pieces as he has had some teeth removed. Until we can get some ordered we are giving him a little of the Diamond naturals when he eats his wet food, it seems to stick with him a bit longer, plus it has 10-15% less carbs than the dry he was nibbling on. He seems more perky and active, and when he sleeps he seems more relaxed. His blood sugar has been in the lower to middle 400's, so we decreased the amount of the dry he can have to a smaller amount, now his blood sugar is in the 350-390 range, so we are fine tuning until he gets some weight on and then will be reducing the carbs. We gave him 2 U today at a BS reading of 384, checked him at 2 hours out and he was at 286, at 4 hours out he was at 291, will update with a 6 hr reading, and an 8 hr reading. I plan on doing a every 2 hour curve in the next few days. :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2016
  34. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    You are doing great Sue. Murphy's 11.5 years old and I fed him the zero mature If I were you, that is what I would get. Do call on Monday and they will send out free sample. A word of warning You have to introduce the food gradually or you will see tummy issues
     
  35. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Thank you Carol and Murphy. He already has a very fussy tummy when we introduce new foods, we will go slow with it, I appreciate you letting me know this. :)
    Murphy is a very handsome kittty!!
     
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  36. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, the Zero Mature is what you want. It's possible that when you get the blood glucose under control, Linus will begin to gain weight.
     
  37. billysmom (GA)

    billysmom (GA) Member

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    If you get the large 12.5 oz cans of wellness they're about the same price as the equivalent amount of fancy feast. You could try some flavors in the smaller cans before getting the big ones.
     
  38. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    Well the dry food is a total bust, his BS has stayed in the lower 400's for this afternoon, that is not good. Until we can buy the Young again dry for his urge to munch and graze we are using the w/d dry the vet gave us, along with the fancy feast. Its sad because just one night and part of a day eating a little of the diamond naturals his stomach actually feels a little fuller, and he was eating less often, but it is not going to work for him.
     
  39. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    The wellness has less protein and more carbs than the Fancy Feast, I think we will stick with the Fancy Feast for wet food, I will get the Young Again dry food ordered on monday. I was going to drive to a bigger town about an hour away to Petco if they sold Young Again, but I did not find anything that had the same nutritional values at their web site.
     
  40. Carol & Murphy

    Carol & Murphy Well-Known Member

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    Hi Susan - no pet food stores sell Young Again (even in Chicago) It is only available on line
     
  41. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    I will be ordering the Young again tomorrow, and thank you all for the wonderful advice :). I think I have figured out part of the problem getting him regulated on the new insulin, when he was on the novolin n and an example here.... his BS was a 380, we gave him 2.5 units, that would be 250 mg of insulin, now we started on 1 unit of the ProZinc, that is 40 mg is that correct?
     
  42. Sue and Oliver (GA)

    Sue and Oliver (GA) Well-Known Member

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    So was he getting2.5 units of Novolin when he switched? but when I looked at his first numbers, one unit of ProZinc gave you a 98?

    Susan, trying to stay on top of his history is hard without a spreadsheet. We just can't be trying to figure out dosing by trying to find a thread that has some of his numbers. We want to be able to respond when you need help, but be able to give good, safe advice. Please contact Marji and have her set you up with a spreadsheet. You will need to set up a Goggle account first - easy to do, free.
     
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  43. billysmom (GA)

    billysmom (GA) Member

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    You were asking about more calories. That's why I mentioned wellness.
     
  44. Marje and Gracie

    Marje and Gracie Well-Known Member

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    My offer to do a SS still stands at any time, Susan. It’s a quick thing for me to do and will benefit you both very, very much in the long run.
     
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  45. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

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    The SS would be very helpful for us so we can give you quick advice when needed!
     
  46. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I made one in excel, but thank you for the offer. :) Linus was at 7 lbs on Monday this week, started the young again zero carbs on Tuesday and weighed him tonight to find out he weighs 6 lbs 8 ozs, so he has lost weight, I am going back to the w/d we got from the vet with the fancy feast and will see what happens.
     
  47. Wulfwin

    Wulfwin Member

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    Nov 4, 2010
    Hi Susan - welcome to ProZinc land :)

    The spreadsheet that Sue, Marje, and Rachel are talking about is actually online and can be posted in your signature (look at the link to Rain's spreadsheet in my signature for an example). This way when you have dosing questions, anyone responding can click on the link in your signature and actually see all the values on the spreadsheet and how Linus has been responding to insulin. It's extraordinarily helpful and time-saving when trying to answer dosing questions or help with interpreting values (for example, my Rain experienced some bouncing and all I had to do was post asking if that was what was going on, and other more experienced members could look at my spreadsheet and see all my values and help me interpret them).

    Just curious, but has Linus been checked for other things that might cause weight loss? I'm particularly thinking of hyperthyroidism. Has he had senior bloodwork done recently?
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2016
  48. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Yes, the vet did blood work for the thyroid and says all is well. I am wondering if he may have an infection somewhere. We have an ongoing prescription for liquid amoxicillin that my vet writes in for a year at a time, long story short, Blondie, one of our cat people has cancer, and believe it or not having him on a daily dose of the anti biotic has kept it at bay for over 3 years. I called to fill it again and will give to Linus as well. The Young again food is not doing a thing for his weight at all. The young again and fancy feast have kept his blood sugar in the low to mid 200's which has taken the insulin injection amounts down to .6, but today he dropped to 58, so reducing to .4 tonight. We test every 12 hours before eating and then injection, he does not always get the same amount, it depends upon his numbers.
    The whole thing with a spread sheet is I do not want any google account, I had one before and it forces you to be signed in for everything you do online such as it will no longer remember your passwords for email accounts, you tube, websites and/or blogs unless your constantly signed in to the google service. I would rather just have my spread sheet chart in excel, I appreciate all the information and suggestions. :)
     
  49. Sharon14

    Sharon14 Well-Known Member

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    Aug 16, 2015
    Check that the liquid Amoxi doesn't have any sugar in it. I learned about that the hard way...
     
  50. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

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    Jul 7, 2016
    I started Linus on the Amoxi today and also talked to the vet. She said the w/d my hubby got from them was the one for weight loss, and not to use it. Being that he has not gained any weight and since the zero carb formula a week ago he has lost a few more ounces, she wants me to continue with the fancy feast as usual, but allow him to graze on what he is use to ( kitten chow and cat naturals) until he puts some weight on. We will have to adjust his insulin to balance out the carbs, he should gain weight. It's interesting to me that after all the money for special foods, he has not gained, and instead he has lost weight. Her school of thought right now is to treat the diabetes, and not try to get into remission, when she first started treating him she was all about remission. I tend to agree with her at this point, Linus is 14, he has dealt with this disease for 3 years and we are spinning our wheels with this never ending different foods that never seem to work for him. I do have a bowl of the Diamond naturals as well because it has high protein as well as some high good fats. The carb levels of the kitten chow and cat naturals are 33%, and the diamond naturals is 26%, so they are high in carbs, we will balance with the insulin and fingers crossed he will gain some weight, once we get the weight up to an optimum weight we can fine tune things.
     
  51. Susan Jacobson

    Susan Jacobson Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    I am very beside myself right now, the Hills science diet, any made for a diabetic cat will help them lose weight, anything with no carbs is a diet for a cat, so even the young again is for weight LOSS, I spoke with them a few minutes ago. Hills, the vet and Young again all stated the same thing, unless your cat is overweight all of these foods will aid them in losing weight. While I understand some people are interested in remission, at age 14 nearly 15 remission is something that is back seat, and all the people I spoke with today from the vet, to hills, to young again agree, it is now about putting some weight on him, treating with insulin for the numbers we get from any food that will put some weight on him. I sure wish these food companies would make things clear on their websites etc.... THIS FOOD WILL MAKE YOUR CAT LOSE WEIGHT! I am beyond frustrated at this point! Young again is calling me back to help us come up with a plan to help him gain weight. Fingers crossed I am getting somewhere.
     
  52. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    It sounds like you have a right to be frustrated. I don't know how big Linus is in body size. But 7 pounds seems small for most cats. I have always felt that a small amount of fat around the belly is good for those times they are feeling lean between meals. Hey it works for me :0

    The BG numbers at the top of the thread - those indicate Linus should be getting a good protein diet. Carbs can affect the blood glucose and the overall health of diabetics. Anyhow, it does seem like some extra weight would be warranted.
     
  53. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I am back, my old pc took a dive and I have a different laptop now, I tried signing in but had the password stored on the old pc so I made a new ID. If anyone has an idea as to how to attach Linus' spreadsheet to this id that would be great. He was doing better and the vet said to let him eat whatever he would eat so we did that for awhile but I tried and continue to discourage him from eating dry food, he does eat a little of it in the middle of the night. I feed him every couple hours as he is a constant grazer and never eats much at each feeding which makes it hard to get the weight on him. He had gained a pound and now he is losing weight again. I can feel his ribs and spine again, he has been eating less, and laying in places like he is trying to hide. I did find some 9 lives chicken and tuna he loved to eat, but when I realized it has less protein and calories than the turkey and giblets made by friskies I stopped giving it to him. I think he is trying to let me know he is not happy with me at all. We did the fancy feast for 3 years and he got tired of that and we tried the friskies at that point. I made him some chicken and he barely touched that. I think I am going to buy all the brands he has eaten at different times and hope he decides what he wants to eat. I hope I haven't sent him into a cat depression, I fear I have!! ARGH!!!

    On a good note we are seeing many more 200 ish and a few below numbers for pres shot numbers so I think the switch from the Novolin to the ProZinc was a good call. Any idea's on the weight? I feel something is off.
     
  54. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
  55. Rachel

    Rachel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Oh no! I'm sorry to hear your laptop took a dive. Your Spreadsheet doesn't appear to be filled out for 2017...or is it just malfunctioning on my computer?

    When was the last time Linus went to the vet? If he isn't eating well and is hiding and acting in pain, I'd get him in ASAP. Do you test for ketones?
     
  56. Yong

    Yong Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2017
    http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/editing-your-signature-profile-and-preferences.130340/

    I don't see anything for 2017 either, @Rachel :bookworm:. I second Rachel's thoughts if there are other issues presenting themselves a Vet visit might be in order. Has he ever had pancreatitis?

    On a second note Susie, a general formula for caloric intake for a goal weight for kitty is:
    Cat's weight (or desired weight in lbs) x 13.6 + 70 = Required calories per day
    So if you want kitty to weigh 10 lbs. 10 x 13.6 + 70 = 206 calories needed per day. Divide by how many meals you feed :).
     
  57. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I have my log in my tablet and will get it filled out tonight for the last few months, my tablet log before then I toss out, I only keep them for 3 month intervals. I did some research thinking that perhaps the insulin ( Pro Zinc ) was loosing it's punch, but the numbers I am getting is telling me the insulin is still good. I did some research on the relion confirm meter we use, and bought a new one to make sure as well, same brand, I get within 2 point numbers between the 2 meters, so I know they are working.

    This is what I am seeing:
    I took a non diabetic cats BS this morning with the same 2 meters as Linus, Frankie was my subject ( short for Frank Sinatra, white cat with blue eyes) Frankie's BS was 49, I then took Linus's BS and his was 375. I gave Linus his meal, Turkey and Giblets which he has decided he will eat again, small YAY as it will be short lived, I gave Linus 2 U at 9 55 am, I checked him 4 hours after injection and got a 116, 5 hours out now and re-checked him , he is at a 75, and plan to check at half life ( 6 hours) to see where he is.

    I have a keytone test kit and his keytones are 0. He seems to be dropping too fast in my opinion, what do you think?
    He has been very finicky in his eating lately, but he is a grazer and never eats a lot at one time, he was like this pre diabetes as well. We did try some hamburger 85% lean that he loves, but after he ate he dropped far too low and I am not sure hamburger will help him put any weight on at all. A couple nights ago while having the hamburger we went from pre shot number of 310, he ate about 3 small spoons of the cooked plain hamburger and about 1 small spoon of his wet 9 Lives Chicken and Tuna, which for him was a huge meal. We gave 1.5 U and at a 4 hour after check we got a reading of 62, at 5 hours a 45, we gave a little karo and food, he went up to a 58 within a half hour.

    The evening before we got a 407 for his pre shot number, again fed the hamburger and wet food, this time the wet food was white fish and tuna and at the 5 hour check he was at 84 so I checked again at the 5 1/2 hour mark thinking he may get too low and he was at a 69, gave a little karo again, checked again in a half hour at 6 hour mark and was back up to a 129.

    Things that have changed, we stopped using the U100 smaller and shorter needled and have been using the needles for the prozinc, they are longer and a bit bigger as well..

    I tried to get him back on his Turkey and Giblets Friskies after he was eating the 9 lives wet and he was not too happy about that.

    I do have an ongoing prescription for Amoxicillin from our vet which I am wondering if I should try a bit on him in case this is a small bout of pancreatitis.

    I am checking him again as the 75 number is a bit low for my comfort level.
     
  58. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I just checked him again , now at the 5 1/2 hour mark and his BS is at 60, giving wet food with some karo in it, will check again at 6 hour mark ( half hour)
     
  59. JeffJ

    JeffJ Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2016
    60 is ok, but lower than that is a big worry zone. Leo drops to 60 mid nadir sometimes. Easy for me to correct with a little food.
     
  60. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Hi Susiecats! It sounds like you're getting some pretty dramatic drops. At least you know the insulin is working!

    One thing you might consider is that giving them karo, or anything high carb really, is pretty hard on their liver and pancreas, so you might want to save that for if there is really an emergency and they are dropping below 40. Even around 50, you can usually steer with low carb (under 10%) or medium carb food (around 14%). Giving karo or high carb will sometimes make them continue having dramatic rises and falls for a few days, when really you just want to help settle him down!

    Another thing that can cause those big spikes and falls is frequent changes in dose. So if some cycles you give 2u and some you give 1.5u, that can sometimes magnify those big dramatic curves. It might be better to choose a safe dose and stick with it for a few days to see if the bouncing settles. Once you get the spreadsheet updated, we can take a look and see if there is a safe recommendation to try to settle things down a bit.

    Finally, food changes can also contribute to the dramatic curves. This one can be tricky with a finicky cat that always wants something different (mine is like that too), but the steadier you can keep the food, the better while you're trying to figure out the dosing. I would recommend sticking with the 9 lives pates if he's happy with those and see if some consistent meals help.

    Hope something in there is helpful! It's always a bit of a dance to figure out our mysterious kitties!
     
  61. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I know what you mean about the Karo, unless he is super low I don't give him much, I drizzle 1/4 - 1/2 a small teaspoon on his wet food and he will lick a small amount of it. I found that if I try to dam any on his gums he gets stressed, he popped up to a 129 so I don't think I gave him too much as he ate abut a small teaspoon of food. I did get the Amoxicillin ordered and will pick that up tomorrow morning. I did have a problem with dosing when he was last on the antibiotic because the liquid has some sweetener/flavoring in it, I plan to give the antibiotic with his later afternoon feeding and hopefully it won't affect his BS levels before his evening injection. He was at 331 tonight so we gave him 1U at 9 40 pm , I just checked him at the 2.5 hour mark after the shot and he is at a 264, he ate mostly hamburger but quite a bit of it and a small amount of wet food. I am going to put at least a month's results on his spreadsheet if it lets me do it.
     
  62. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    It let me attach the spreadsheet, but not add anything at all. Does anyone know how I can add to it? Please note that this was his spreadsheet under my past profile that I was unable to sign into after my old pc stopped working.
     
  63. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Thank you all for the advice, will see what happens.
     
  64. Djamila

    Djamila Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2015
    Are you able to login to Google? You'll need to login to your Google account before you can edit it. If you can't login to Google anymore, you could create a new Google account, and then copy and paste your data into a new spreadsheet. Let us know if you need help with that. There are a few people around here who might be able to help more with that.
     
  65. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    Sorry, have not been online as much as usual, taking care of Linus is getting hard, I am glad to do it but just can't figure out what's happening. He has had this for about 5-6 years now and some days I think he may be going into remission. He had 2 more days of super low blood sugars +11 after injection of 1U. Now today I gave him 1.2U at 10 am as he was 381 BS, it should have landed him at a 140 ish for his lowest at the 6 to 7 hour mark, but landed him at 248! Test him at 10 pm tonight and he was at a 36!!!. Relion confirm meter) when I tested it against my vets pet meter her's reads 20 higher, still gave him a light drizzle of karo on his wet food and it took a half hour to get a reading of 50. I am starting to wonder about remission but have read so much about it usually happening within a few months up to a year. I checked him again now at 1 am and he is at a 199, too low to shoot. I notice he is drinking more water and has less urine than usual as well. Day 5 of the amoxicillin, but have been giving it +8 after injection.. What do you all make of this?
     
  66. Susiecats

    Susiecats New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2017
    I will need to get a new google account for the spread sheet.
     
  67. Kris & Teasel

    Kris & Teasel Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2016
    It'll be easier to give advice once your 2017 data shows but on the face of it he appears to be bouncing violently from the lows. It might be worth trying a consistent lower dose for a few days to see if he settles a bit. Sometimes bouncy cats get worse when you chase the numbers with dose changes. My cat can't tolerate frequent dose changes. I'm not sure what dose to suggest without seeing SS trends - maybe 0.8 u? That's based on you saying he went very low by +11 on a 1 u dose.
     
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