Warning about overfeeding thin cat

I had asked about if overfeeding wet food w/ 2% carb could increase diabetic symptoms of an underweight cat still trying to be regulated, and was replied that it should not impact.

I can only say that for my cat, who twice was given 1/2 can more resulted in excess urination, excess thirst and vomiting.

While I have read online that they say cats require more food because they can't process it, just a caution, go by what your cat indicates first and not "general" advise. My cat has vomited multiple times today as a result. The insulin levels will be rechecked but it has only happened when food was increased beyond a certain level due to having dental work and fasting increasing need to eat.

 

If you are increasing the cats food, try to do it over multiple smaller feedings in a day, not just adding large amounts to one feeding. Eating too much at one time will usually result in vomiting in most cats.

The little bit I am fostering right now was bone thin and 6.1lbs at diagnosis. When I took over feeding her she was packing 350-420 calories a day, and that's when I started limiting her intake. I fed her 4 times a day at first and now feed her 8 times a day. I've reduced her calories down to around 230-260, still about 50-100 calories more than she needs in a day for her size but she could use a little more weight gain. She gets just 1/6th of a 5.5o can per meal with some water added.

If your kitty needs to eat more, try adding a couple more smaller meals into the day instead of adding a 1/2 can to an already existing meal. Hope the vomiting stops and he feels better

 

try feeding him in smaller portions more frequently.
you are experiencing the scarf and barf.

yes. they are hungry because their body isn't processing correctly and the nutrition doesn't all go where it should.
Better to break it up.
I fed my diabetic cat every 4 hours.... both night and day. Many here use a timed feeder at nighttime.

 

You're absolutely correct though...The advice we give is correct in the vast majority of cats, but ECID isn't just an acronym....Every Cat IS Different and knowing your cat is one of the most important parts!

 

I believe you are also feeding DM, correct? It does not have the best ingredients and some varieties are actually up to 10%. But any case, <10% is still considered LC. I wouldn't necessarily attribute the vomiting to an extra 1/2 can of food/2.75 oz. either. Rhiannon may have a point with the scarf and barf, but it also could be coincidence and completely unrelated. I do agree with the rest that feeding small multiple small meals spread throughout the day is best...it's much easier on their pancreas. I ultimately fed between 5-8 x's a day depending on his hunger and my schedule. Some of those meals were a bit larger, sometimes just an extra spoonful or snack. Feeding a meal before bed also seems to help them make it overnight. Although when my kitty was unregulated, I would get up and feed in the middle of the night if he asked. The appetite will naturally taper off as they regulate.

You can also try catsicles for overnight or when you have to be out...just mix the wet food with water...roughly 40/60, and freeze in small containers. Pop a cube or two out and they thaw in and hour or 2.

 

Thanks. I have only given her small amounts because she is hungry at many times, and it hopefully is less stressful to her as she seeks food she obtains "something" though not enough to satisfy. She is getting a little more than 300 calories a day, which is for consumption of a 9lb cat but any more than that, even if small amounts results in excess glucose. I have never given her 1/2 can prior to the injection for fear she would never "register" it and be in frustration the balance of the day by refusal to get "portions." I do give her slightly larger amounts before injection but not considerably because it just won't make the 24 hours. She did clear up today after 10am but glucose is still over 400. Very discouraged. She has never come down since insulin started, tonight went up to 2 units x2 day. I am hoping her body will accept the insulin and improvement seen next week as she lost 1/2 pound in about a week or so. Only 7.5 and bony.

 

She wants food at 3am, 5am, 6am, 7am 8am and then slows til around noon and then wants to eat at 3pm, 5pm, 6pm, 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 10pm.......for now I am near her at night and when she awakens me I feed her at midnight or 3 am, because I know when she was on dry food she ate at 3am. So, you can see, hard to split 3 (3oz) cans to last that many portions but that is how it is until she can get regulated.

 

[ ECID isn't just an acronym....Every Cat IS Different and knowing your cat is one of the most important parts![/QUOTE] So true! I told the vet her urination changed after insulin, because he said though her glucose was in the 400 range it was likely an error because I didn't see the urine.....but NOW he says "well all cats are different." I think it was strange she only exhibited thirst before diagnosis.

 

Curious, if you put the frozen food in their bowl she would see me and would try to consume it frozen, how does that work. Have you ever seen them try to eat it when it is frozen? I might try this during the day to see how it goes. This sounds like a great idea if they could consume it slowly overnight.
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You can also try catsicles for overnight or when you have to be out...just mix the wet food with water...roughly 40/60, and freeze in small containers. Pop a cube or two out and they thaw in and hour or 2.[/QUOTE]

 

I can't stress enough that at this stage of the game I would not be counting calories. She's acting famished because she IS! Her body cannot properly process or receive the proper nutrition from the food....and she's starving. I'd be feeding her as much as she wants right now...clearly weight gain is not a concern. Just feed it in small portions spread out over the day/night. Some are feeding 6+ cans a day at this early unregulated stage, if that's what it takes.
Worry first about finding her dose and getting her BG numbers in better range. Save worrying about calories for way, way down the road. It is just not a consideration now. In fact, from what you're saying, its quite the opposite.

 

Some cats will try to eat it frozen, but some will wait til it thaws. All you can do is try it and see how it goes.

We've got a good post on the New to the Group? sticky that is called "Feed Kitty as much as they want?" It's got a good explanation of why a diabetic cat is so hungry all the time until they are regulated. If a kitty is underweight, it might be ok to feed her more than you've been feeding. The most important thing in your situation is to prevent her from losing any more weight. It's the best indicator of whether or not she's eating enough. Some people buy a baby scale, some take the cat by the vet's office to be weighed a couple of times a week til they get it figured out.

Her eating isn't the only thing that can cause high numbers. Just a little Lantus 101 - high numbers can be caused by increasing the dose - we call that "New Dose Wonkiness." For some reason, increasing the dose can increase the blood sugar for a day or two after the dose increase.

Cats can also have high blood sugar from bouncing. That's described in the second post in the New Dose Wonkiness thread above.

Cats can have high blood sugar from not having enough insulin. They can also have high blood sugar from having too much insulin.

Cats can also have a spike of high blood sugar if they are stressed. Some cats will have their blood sugar rise by several hundred points when they go to the vet - which is one reason that home-testing is so good.

Infections can increase blood sugar. Pain can increase blood sugar.

A lot of it is very counter-intuitive, but as you learn more, it will make more sense. The best thing you can do is begin home-testing so you have more than a single test every week or so from the vet's to look at. Over a period of time we can help you look at the blood sugar tests and decipher what's going on. It's easy to think it's because of the food, but in fact, there are many variables that can increase blood sugar.

She's also peeing and starving because her blood sugar is so high. I don't think it's solely because of her food.

I hope you'll take advantage of the opportunity for people to teach you to hometest. You can do this - most people think it's overwhelming to start with, but it isn't long before this Sugar Dance will become routine. It's not as scary when you learn more and understand what you're seeing. We use spreadsheets because of the way Lantus works so we can see the blood sugar tests laid out over several days.

Hang in there - and hang in here. We're happy to give you a hand.

Here are 2 posts with Testing and Shooting tips that might be helpful for you. My personal opinion is that when you're starting out, wherever it works for you to shoot is fine. I always shot in the scruff and didn't worry about it. Make your life one bit easier and do what works for you.
Testing and Shooting Tips: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=85113;
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/hometesting-links-and-tips.287/

Here's your last post.

And welcome to Lantus/Lev Land.

 

You can also feed boiled chicken or freeze dried chicken in addition for snacks....both LC and low cal. But again, calories are not an issue right now.

Those are also favorites for testing treats/rewards around here.

 

the short explanation is if she's eating a low carb wet food, then you just need to follow advice here to adjust dose.
testing is key.
the food is not likely what is increasing her numbers, you have to look at the whole picture.
with our help, you will find the right dose that gets her numbers better, she starts gaining weight and becomes healthier again.

 

I would love to feed her constantly but have found that 4 cans has consistently resulted in vomit, thirst and urine all over the floor. Purina vet line specialists indicated that this will happen if her glucose goes to high and the food will push her glucose higher. If she did not vomit up the food, I would gladly agree but my vet even agreed, if she is vomiting at 4 cans, stay under it until her glucose can be managed. I am overfeeding her at the 3 cans for her weight and it is only 2% carb, she just can't keep it down and to have her cycle into excess glucose because of overfeeding and loss of food by vomit does not fit her.
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Worry first about finding her dose and getting her BG numbers in better range. Save worrying about calories for way, way down the road. It is just not a consideration now. In fact, from what you're saying, its quite the opposite.[/QUOTE]

 

Thanks. I agree with the overall reply. She has pain, can't hardly pet her, as she sinks her spine. When she had dental work and came home with anesthesia I couldn't believe the difference in her bounce and ability to pet her. That did not last sadly. It even helped her bounce up the steps a day.

I want to home test but want to know what to buy. I saw on the old links about recommendations but many are out of date. I like that this one requires little blood as her ears are very small and thin from http://www.adwdiabetes.com/product/...ets-and-free-meter_8302.htm?utm_source=Search
TRUEtrack Test Strips 200ct & 200 Lancets w/FREE Meter - Glucose Test Strips
The TRUEtrack Blood Glucose Monitoring System delivers nothing less than outstanding performance.
This offer is for 200 test strips, 200 lancets and a FREE TRUEtrack Blood Glucose Monitoring System.

Is this a good unit but I would like to get started asap and pick one up @ a store instead of mail order and I did not see the replacement strips easily.

And welcome to Lantus/Lev Land. [/QUOTE]

 

I did not see your earlier thread but have just now read it. Did not realize you weren't home testing. Chris said it best in that thread, and Julie in this one....I think you are going to need to look from a different perspective. The feeding of more (or less) food is NOT causing the high numbers, excess peeing, vomiting (likely)....it is the Unregulated BG and not having found the proper dose of insulin for her yet. She NEEDS to eat while you are working on that...More not less..as she is STARVING. If you can focus on testing her so you can monitor the effects of each dose of glucose you give her, then WE can help you adjust the dose to find what she needs and will respond to so her body can start to function properly again. You don't starve diabetic humans to keep their numbers down. You work with finding the proper insulin dose to even things out...and that's same for your cat.

 

If you're only feeding 2% carbs, it's not the carbs that's making her blood sugar high.

There is a wealth of experience with diabetic cats on this site - far more than most vets have, and I can't imagine the Purina folks have a lot of experience with diabetic cats. Take a look at some of the links I gave you above. There is a lot of reading to do, but the more you know, the easier it will all be.

In everyone's signature line, you'll see the name of their cat and "SS", meaning spreadsheet as a hot link. Click on any of those and take a peek at their spreadsheets. You'll see that blood sugar goes high and low over the course of a day. Sometimes it's just plain high. But the important thing is that there are reasons for high blood sugar that don't include the food. I fed punkin the same food almost the whole time he was diabetic - same amount every day, spaced out at the same intervals, pretty much for the first 2 years, and his blood sugar went up and down.

As far as the vomiting goes, that's different. It may take some different strategies to address that. Feeding small meals is a great first step.

It sounds like she has a lot of pain, poor girl! There is a painkiller called Buprinorphin that your vet can sell you - it's a narcotic - but you can give a small dose that you put in her cheek pocket or under her lip. It absorbs through the tissue and it can really help. Punkin got that twice a day for at least a year for his arthritis. There are other remedies for arthritis too. There are 3 meds that people here often try to see if one will help their cat. Cosequin is available online without a prescription. Adequan is available from your vet, or with a prescription online. Dausequin is a third option. I tried the first 2 on punkin and found that Adequan helped him quite a bit - it improves the fluid in the joints. It might increase the fluid too, I don't remember, but you can look it up.

I don't know about that meter, but on ADW there is a generic meter called an ARKRAY that many people use. The strips are very affordable too. Some people have found meters with "tru" in the names aren't as accurate as other meters, but I can't say about that one specifically. What you can do is to edit the subject line of your first post in this thread (look for "thread tools" in the top right of the page) and put "need meter recommendation" in the subject line. People will then know what you're looking for and will come give you their 2 cents worth.

 

The meters with True' in their name have not had good reviews or reliability. Many here use the Relion Confirm or Mini. The same meter is available at ADW if you prefer ordering online,...but under the Arkray Glucocrad or Mini name. These are favorites due to small blood drop required and especially lower cost test strips

 

FYI: She's feeding DM I think...is this right?

It's actually not 2% but is LC. She was sold the RX myth by the vets it sounds like, as have so many. We linked you to the WWW.catinfo.org site. Have you had a chance to read it? Dr. Pearson explains the nutrition side of things best. You'll also find info on the RX diet myth

 

One of the meters a lot of us use is the Relion Confirm or Micro from Walmart....the meter is about $15 and the strips are $35.88 per 100...it takes the tiniest sample size too (you'll see the meter a lot of us use in our signature lines)

It's handy if you need strips in the middle of the night too since you can go to WalMart and get them, but the Arkray from ADW is the exact same meter only under the Arkray name instead of Relion and you can buy the strips for that meter at ADW too (and interchange between them)

You want to start with lancets that are 25-28 gauge, not the super thin 31-33 gauge...the smaller the gauge, the bigger the "hole" it makes and new ears are easier to get to bleed if you use the bigger lancets (and it's still not a big hole!) As you poke more often, the ears will "learn to bleed" and the whole thing gets easier

A little Neosporin with pain relief ointment is good too....it helps heal up those ears and if you put a little film on before you poke, it helps get the blood to "bead up" (think oil and water)

 

Where do I find the Relion Confirm? Walmart?

 

Yes, Walmart. Confirm or Micro are ones most here use. And the Arkray strips are interchangeable if you ever want to order those online in future.

 

It takes ears about 2 weeks to grow more capillaries - in the first couple of weeks it can be pretty frustrating because you can poke the whole way through the ear and not get blood. But the poking stimulates the growth of more capillaries, so it's still doing something. It won't be long before you'll get blood every time.

Take a look at the link I gave you above on testing and shooting tips - it's got all the best ideas from the whole site. Something in there will help you.

 

Glad you warned about no blood. Oh boy.......

 

You'll get it sometimes, but not every time. Someone suggested the "3 strikes you're out" to me - poke him 3 times and if no blood, go ahead and give him the treat anyway. Punkin liked that. It's better to get any tests than no tests.

As someone mentioned already, pick up the Neosporin OINTMENT with pain relief when you get supplies. You can either use it before you poke to kind of numb his ear a bit, or after you poke. It's greasy, and a little bit of it (not gloppy, just a tiny bit left on so her ear looks slightly greasy) will help her ear heal overnight.

Punkin had a bazillion tests in his 2.5 years of being diabetic and vets always commented to me that they'd never have known that he was having his ear tested. Truly, it looked perfect, and we used the same ear basically the whole time. We made sure to hold his ear with some pressure after poking for a few seconds so it didn't bleed, bruise or scar, then every night we put a generous amount of Neosporin ointment with pain relief on his ear. In the morning we wiped off any remaining, and it would still be slightly greasy. That slight bit of greasiness prevents the blood from immediately soaking into the hair and skin after you've poked. It'll sit there and wait for you to test it.

 

Coldplay, I just wanted to toss my two cents into the ring here! First, I'm a total rookie compared to the people above here that have replied and given advice!! I say that as I want you to know that I'm more on your "experience level".

1st thing - unfortunately, and this is possibly the most difficult thing to get past, the people on this page KNOW MORE about feline diabetes than the vast majority of vets. Absolutely NO question. I love my vet, she's the best, and luckily for me, she is very open minded and has no problem with my getting dosing advice and general advice from this group. But think about all the different breeds of animals most vets deal with? And all the different diseases in each one of those breeds? It is literally impossible for the vets to be as "up" on feline diabetes as those that are fighting to keep their cats alive

2nd - definitely, read up on the different types of "over the counter/big box/grocery store" wet food available. They are proven to be better for our sugar cats, yes, BETTER, than the RX ones sold through the vet. (There are charts comparing all the ingredients, carbs, etc) Finding a cheaper (both financially and by stereotype or reputation! heehee) wet food might actually be something to try. Is it possible that the vomiting could even be related to a slight fish/chicken/beef allergy? Whatever may be in the DM? (That is more of a general question for the veterans here!) Somebody above suggested boiled chicken, this has been a GOD SEND for me!! I pre-cut raw chicken into large cubes, fill half a sandwich baggie, pop them in the freezer. Then every 3 days or so, thaw one out and just boil it. Chop it into bite size bits, keep in the fridge for when he needs a little something extra, or treats.

3rd - start home testing, it will put you back in the driver's seat of this thing we call the sugar dance. You'll be able to test at home, which will give you more accurate numbers, and less stress on your cat re not having to go to the vet. (Heck! When I think of it, the price of having one curve done at the vet is MORE than the price of a meter, 100 strips and lancets all put together!)

4th - For me? I felt like a total buffoon trying to get the hang of the spreadsheet. But now that I understand it (I think ) I can't imagine not doing it. There is a LOT of information here, so don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Everyone here is great when it comes to asking for help! (I know, I've tested them! LOL)

You got this girl!!!!
Darcy (and mah boy, Lebowski)

 

First, welcome to L&L Land, the nicest place you never wanted to be.

As stated above, there is an overwhelming amount of info in the stickies at the top of our main page, but the more you know, the better equipped you are to help your kitty get better. No, we are not vets. We are everyday people just like you, but we have cats with FD (and many of us have cats with other issues) and we have done the research and lived with it and figured out what works and what doesn't. I am fortunate enough to live near the second most highly rated veterinary teaching hospital in the country, the University of California at Davis. I was told by one of the vet students in Internal Medicine there that they get exactly 5 hours of study on diabetes, and that includes both cats and dogs! I was able to get an appointment with Dr. Richard Nelson, who is considered to be an expert on diabetes in cats and dogs. He told me Cinco looked great and to keep doing exactly what I was doing (which was following TR). The other vets I deal with at UCD for Cinco's cancer and other issues are very impressed by the extent of my knowledge and the tools I use to manage his diabetes. I tell them it's all because of FDMB. The people here are amazing, kind, caring, generous and have tons of experience and knowledge. You can trust them to help you get your sweet kitty regulated and feeling better. These people save my Cinco's life and my sanity. Let us help you.

 

Thanks for the 3 times, I am about to head out and just read about not hitting the main vein. My little girl has thin, small ears and I am nervous about doing this but as I see improvement from the bump in insulin to 2 just once, I have to get a grip on it and figure how to get her ear not to twitch. Any SUGGESTIONS as I am now concerned about the ear moving as we just gently hold it as I understand.

 

Watch several of the videos. We all have different methods and different cats..you just have to find what is most comfortable for you and yours. We can offer tips to help with the basics. There is a learning curve just like with anything..but then after that it is sort of refining your own style....

I had a testing 'spot' on our kitchen counter. Kept a cotton blanket/pad there. I liked having him at that level. I could sort of hunch over him with the upper part of my body which allowed more control, plus along with the back of the counter cuts off most escape routes. Not that my guy needed it....after a time or two he would jump up there and stand in wait as soon as he heard the zipper on the kit. One very important thing, you always want to offer a treat...EVERY time, whether you are successful getting blood or not. Freeze dried chicken or shrimp treats are favorites and LC. They quickly associate the testing with the treats. My Hank purred through his tests. It does help to have a cotton ball or kleenex folded behind the ear as backing where you are poking. We microwaved our rice sock for 30 seconds or so, held that on the ear (if its too hot i rubbed it around on his body first which he thought was the spa)..then also rub the ear between your thumb and forefinger to get things circulating. His spot became his throne and he hung out there other times too, even just napping...this was his place.

 

We hold the ear against the sock, which keeps it warm and gives a firm support behind the ear for poking. The ear will twitch less as she gets more accustomed to having you touch them. Keep it gentle, but firm. Don't worry. It will get easier!

 

Many small meals are better for FD cats, it puts less demand on the pancrease all at one time. It is the way cats normally feed; catch something, eat it, go looking for more. Do think about a timed feeder. The 5 compartment feeders can be programmed to open whever you want during the night or when you are at work. The Cat Mate is one that many of us use.

Another thing you can do is to weigh the food, it makes dividing it up easier. I use a pocket size digital scale from Harbor Freight. Of course I'm a little OCD.

 

Since I am not working presently, I am able to be the "waitress" as needed. I have a second cat with food allergies to fish and she cannot have any of Cold Play's wet salmon 2% carb and Cold Play cannot likewise touch any dry food for the second cat, who also gets a Blue Buffalo Mature wet to help her lose some weight. But, it an amazing idea for someone who works because I don't know how you would otherwise do what I am.

 

Your life will be a lot easier if you can get your second cat off the dry and onto the same low carb food your diabetic is eating. There are lots of other choices you could feed Cold Play other than salmon if your other cat can't tolerate fish

We actually don't like to see them eating fish more than about once a week because it's higher in phosphorus and also has the problem of mercury that's gotten into our fish so if you can find something else Cold Play will eat that your other cat likes too, you'll be much better off and so will your kitties!!

When we started, my civvies got switched from free feeding dry to several small meals of low carb canned so I didn't have to worry if China happened to get into their food....the thing that surprised me the most was how much better their coat's became, and they both lost a lot of extra weight they had needed to lose, so getting your other cat onto low carb canned will most likely help him if he needs to lose weight too!!

I have to ask....How did your kitty get the name "Cold Play"? There has to be a good story!!