Warren - 5/29/2000 - 7/1/2016 rest in peace my furry friend

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by robr, May 22, 2015.

  1. robr

    robr Member

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    Love the KT salute story.

    Seems I jinxed Warren. He pooped on the floor in the kitchen overnight and the wife is back in putting him to sleep mode. Told he she needs to give the Prozac some time to work. His numbers were also high last night (compared to recent readings), but I was also running 75 minutes late.
     
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  2. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Oh, dear. :( :bighug:

    Not sure I've mentioned this before, but are you giving Warren a B12 supplement, Rob?
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  3. robr

    robr Member

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    He had his 2nd B12 yesterday.
     
  4. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    That's good. :) I started Saoirse on Zobaline a few days ago. It gave her a definite boost. Fingers and paws crossed it will help Warren, too. I worry a lot about ye.
    :bighug:


    Mogs
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  5. smiley747

    smiley747 Member

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    Wow. Your wife sounds like a real compassionate sweetheart lol You just lost your MOM for crying out loud. Couldn't she be a little more understanding. (sorry..I had to lol) I am no expert but I would say its not behavioral..probably not feeling well and can't help it. Poor kitty. Uti? I wish you all the best. I understand this can cause problems ..in every way. No one will tell me when to put any of my pets to asleep
     
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  6. robr

    robr Member

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    Another poop on the kitchen floor today :(. Damn damn damn. He does it on the hard wood floor in front of the back door (which is our main entrance we use for the house). Wife didn't notice it yesterday and ran over it with the door which makes it very hard to clean off the bottom of the door, I guess that would contribute to my crankiness as well. He's been on prozac for 8 days, I told my wife 3-4 weeks for the effects to start working, so as long as the accidents aren't happening every day, Warren and I have a bit of time. The no carb treats arrive today and hopefully the prozac helps once it kicks in. I got nothing else, his numbers are still looking good other than perhaps a 36 hour spike a couple days back (but still consistently under 400 for almost 2 weeks). I can't think of anything else I could be doing over the next few weeks. He's getting weekly B-12 now too.
     
  7. Meya14

    Meya14 Well-Known Member

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    If he has favorite spots, what I did with jane when she was peeing was I bought some of that plastic carpet protector. It is thick plastic and has little plastic "spikes" on the bottom side. I cut small squares of it and placed it spikey-side up over places she usually went to detract her from going there. They have it on rolls at most big-box stores, and you can buy it by the foot. If they do have an accident on it, you can rinse it off. This stuff: http://convention.issa.com/show08/D.../629/85061322-d824-4f31-8e9c-40a3e1a9923f.jpg
     
  8. robr

    robr Member

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    Thanks Meya, but wouldn't that just encourage them to go somewhere else that's not the litter box? Offering up something easy to clean to my wife is basically telling her that she will need to live with this problem and work around it. Unfortunately that won't fly. The only solution that's going to keep Warren alive is 99% litter box usage in such a way that won't disrupt our small home (ie, adding additional litterboxes or permanently removing rugs and such).

    Warren has come so far since we all started this journey together, I think he's doing amazing and I am really hoping the prozac gets him to that 99%, but there's only so much he and I can do. He's an old guy, things just don't work the same when you get old, just ask my back :)
     
  9. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Rob, can you tell us more about Warren's nature. Is he an emotionally very sensitive cat? Also, is he an indoor-outdoor cat, or indoor only? Just to double-check, is Warren your only cat? Finally, are there any other neighbourhood cats that lurk around outside your house? If yes, how does Warren react when he sees/encounters them?


    Mogs
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  10. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    On regulation, is there any way that you can get some more mid-cycle tests for Warren, Rob? I've just had gander at his spreadsheet and I'm wondering whether those two recent pinks might be a bounce. If you could get a +2 or +3 on each AM and PM cycle that would be really helpful in terms of working out what the 0.6IU dose is doing mid-cycle.


    Mogs
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  11. robr

    robr Member

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    Warren is a very confident cat and is generally the guy in charge. He is not aggressive at all, but the younger cats generally defer to him. All my cats are indoor only, they all have a great disposition and get along. We've adopted cats in the past where we found if we didn't have a good group dynamic, we've rehomed them, so it took a few cats and some time to come up with the balance we'd have the past several years.
    We have four cats (ages 4, 4, 7 and 15).

    We did have a problem a few months back with a neighborhood cat that would come up to our back door (where warren poops) and hang out on the back deck (and that cat would poop in our driveway every night).
    I spoke with the owner and she kept her cat inside for a couple of weeks. She did start letting him out again but I have not seen him since.
    Thinking about it, there are some other neighborhood cats that occasionally come by, there really is no way to stop that from happening. I live in a rental duplex and the woman on the other side has two indoor/outdoor cats that have easy access to our yard/deck.

    I think you may be on to something here Critter, I'm just not sure how it can be addressed short of perhaps covering the lower part of the glass back door so Warren can't see outside. Even still, he can see out the windows in other areas of the house.... but only the back door would allow him to get face to face with another cat.
     
  12. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for that information, Rob. It's really valuable.

    Here's something to consider. I have to keep my (younger) civvie completely separate now from Saoirse because she knows that Saoirse's poorly and she tries to attack her. From my reading, this is apparently not uncommon cat behaviour. I wonder whether Warren may be feeling vulnerable to other cats (both outside and at home)? The elimination of faeces at a doorway could be a territorial marking behaviour. (Cats can leave faeces deposits to mark territory boundaries.) The neighbourhood cat who pooped in the driveway was possibly 'sending a message' to Warren. (A kitty mafioso? :nailbiting:)

    With regard to visibility of visiting cats, maybe try covering the bottom part of the back door with a black refuse sack (secure in place with masking tape) as a temporary measure to see if that may halt the pooping in that location? I have read about other cats with 'visitor anxiety' being helped when visual barriers are deployed.


    Mogs
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  13. robr

    robr Member

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    Warren doesn't seem to feel vulnerable in any way, he is still clearly the boss with tail held high (and even bent backwards onto his back). But I don't know why I didn't think of the outside cat before. He was pooping several months back and it stopped after I got the neighbor to keep her cat away from our home. I'm so focused on Warren's health and diabetes, it just didn't occur to me that this could be something else. I have a security camera focused down the driveway triggered by motion, it might not be sensitive enough to trigger for a moving cat but I'm going to look the footage anyway and see if perhaps it caught any early morning visitors of late.


    ... heh.... skunk near the trash at 4:12am so far........ doubt the skunk went up on the desk and looked in our back door though :) - another skunk at 5:36am........... Warren can't see these guys.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  14. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Tara, one of my first two rescues also had a double-jointed tail! (I miss her so ... :( )
    ... but cats are notorious for hiding things from us. :rolleyes:

    Fingers and paws crossed that the CCTV footage will yield more clues. I don't know whether such a thing exists but how about getting a cheap bluetooth webcam to monitor the area around the back door to see what might be triggering Warren's behaviour?


    Mogs
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  15. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Bet he can smell 'em, though ... ;)
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  16. robr

    robr Member

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    ah ha! let me check other mornings.

    This guy arrived at 7:18 and left at 7:25, he was hanging out in our back yard (and perhaps deck) for 7 minutes.
     

    Attached Files:

  17. robr

    robr Member

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    I can easily move one of my indoor window cameras and point it out a window toward the deck, they don't have IR, so no night vision, but it may yield something.
     
  18. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    You could try deploying some form of cat repellent around the property. There's a UK product called Silent Roar that works well. There are UK sellers that offer it on ebay.com. Not sure whether there's an equivalent product in the US. It is made up of pellets soaked in "essence of lion dung". (Not making this up! :D) I used to use it to stop neighbourhood cats from soiling in the flower beds when I had a garden, and I found it very effective. There's no detectable whiff to humans.


    Mogs
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  19. robr

    robr Member

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    Ha! Lion urine pellets, nice. Talked to the wife, she totally agrees this is caused by outside cats. She's going to order some translucent window film to put on the bottom of the back door and bathroom window that face the back yard. The past few days I've found Warren laying on top of the toilet seat in the downstairs bathroom. This is totally new for him and very odd. But if there's a cat hanging out on the deck, there's a good view from the toilet seat if the curtains are open. This could also explain that new behavior. I feel better. Thanks Critter!
     
  20. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Keeping fingers and paws crossed that this will solve part of the puzzle. (Anti-jinx, anti-jinx.) :D


    Mogs
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  21. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    An afterthought: I'd still try blocking the view through the back door with something opaque - at least temporarily. With a translucent covering, Warren may still be able to make out the shape of the visitor. The translucent covering for the bathroom window should be ideal because it will block line of sight (assuming that there's no outer windowsill upon which a visitor might park their uninvited feline hiney).

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  22. SpecklesandMe

    SpecklesandMe Member

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    Mogs, that's brilliant! :)
    robr, just some stupid questions that you can ignore if the problem is now resolved (and sorry if you've already answered these questions, but I haven't followed the entirety of the thread). Are you using covered or uncovered litterboxes? If they are covered, I'd remove the lids. Have you tried different types of litter? Is the litter scented or unscented?
     
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  23. Tucker&Me

    Tucker&Me Member

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    For all the seriousness and travails of our poor dear Warren, I must admit I am laughing a huge belly laugh at your post, Mogs!! Especially the addition of the emoji, hilarious.
    I'm sorry Rob :oops:
    PS I wonder what confident Warren would say about all of this espionage on his lowly behalf? :cat:
     
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  24. Tucker&Me

    Tucker&Me Member

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    My god woman!! YOU'RE AWESOME!
     
  25. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    @Tucker&Me - Not so much of the awesome, Bren, but heavy on the paranoia. If there's one thing I have a handle on, it's fear. :oops: I'm just hoping so hard that this helps Warren.
     
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  26. Shiloh & Rhonda

    Shiloh & Rhonda Well-Known Member

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    Rob, I think what Meya was talking about was turning the plastic mat upside down, so that the little rubber spikes are on the top side, so that Warren won't like the feel of them on his on paws.
     
  27. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Rob,

    I just had a look at Warren's spreadsheet to see how he was doing. You need to reduce his dose. That 48 you got on the last AM cycle is under the hypo line and indicates the 0.6 units is now too strong for him. I recommend that you start a new thread on the Lantus & Levemir board to get some dosing advice (but at minimum reduce his dose by 0.25 units). The yellow PMPS may be a bounce.


    Mogs
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  28. Tucker&Me

    Tucker&Me Member

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    I know, dear. I am hoping the same.
     
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  29. robr

    robr Member

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    Hi guys, I came to the same conclusion myself about reducing the dose, I will start a new post in the Lantus forum. I had intended to go down to 0.5, but I will seek their advice. He has not had his shot this morning as he was 54 @ +12

    Warren has peed on the floor the past two days. yesterday on my wife's sandals which she accidentally left out (we've been trying to keep shoes off the floor), today just on the hardwood floor (in a new location than he ever has before). The question I was coming to ask is would too low of a BG also be a cause for accidents? He peed A LOT. Thought a mountain lion had gone in the kitchen, but he must still be drinking a ton of water.
     
  30. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes low numbers cause Dakota to pee in inappropriate places....I can always tell when he went way down overnight even if his amps was in the 200's - I have to clean up pee in 1 of 3 places....by the time I realize it, he's starting another bounce... :cool:
     
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  31. robr

    robr Member

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    Just an update.... we haven't had a great week. Reducing the dosage from 0.6 (too high), down to approx 0.35 had us back in the 300s and 400s.
    Brought it back up to 0.5. Numbers in the 100s and 200, but two pee accidents today.

    I know you guys want numbers at +2, I'm just so exhausted and I guess I don't understand what difference they would make. The dose can't really be adjusted much, no matter what the numbers at +2 say. But why +2 and not +7-+9 (nadir)?

    I've said his before and then you guys gave me a new burst of energy, but mentally I'm about ready to throw in the towel again. I've been fighting this battle since March. I feel pretty helpless as far as controlling the urine accidents, the wife is of course not understanding about them and I don't know how much energy I have left. I do agree with her that if I can't find a way to get the urination to happen in the litterbox 99% of the time, then Warren will have to be put to sleep. I've been trying for 6 months now to make this happen. I just feel like if I could get a handle on his BG numbers, that 99+% is possible. Maybe I'm just kidding myself.

    FWIW, the pooping has completely stopped since covering the windows facing the deck. So that's one positive.
     
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  32. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    Hi Rob,

    I really feel for you. :bighug:

    I'm really pleased to hear the screening helped with the poop problem.

    Warren's numbers have improved so much. At small doses tiny changes make a difference but get it right and it's a world of positive difference.

    When circumstances make it difficult to get tests in the very middle of the cycle, +2s are very useful because they can give an early indication of where the cycles might be heading. They sometimes catch early nadirs (sometimes happens when dose is a bit on the high side).

    Rob, can you let us know exactly what B12 treatment Warren has had to date? Also, can you let us know if he jumps up onto higher surfaces OK, particularly ones where he has to make a single jump to reach them.

    I've had a bit of a rough week so I can't write much right now, but I will have a look at Warren's spreadsheet and post again in the next couple of days.

    Hang in there. :bighug:



    Mogs


    EDITED TO ADD:

    Wherever possible please can you keep a log of the time Warren has any accidents in his spreadsheet remarks. (e.g. accident at PM+5; accident during AM cycle, discovered at AM+9). It could give some leads as to what is happening.
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  33. robr

    robr Member

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    Tomorrow will be Warren's 3rd weekly B-12 shot. He has never been a counter/table cat, but if I were to put him on a counter, he has no problem jumping off. He also jumps into laps or window sills. They checked his hips at his physical back in April.

    I do make notes as to his accident times, look at the purple shaded comments. Those are his accidents and they should all have notes about times, though not expressed in +x format.

    Warren's AMPS was 54 this morning. It's so frustrating trying to get consistent doses and none of the air bubble techniques work to get out 100% of the air bubbles which is so critical when you have doses this small. Pretty sure at this point I've tried them all.
     
  34. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

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    This may have already been discussed, don't remember the earlier parts of this thread, but have you tried Cat Attract litter? I have one (non-diabetic) cat who, for whatever reasons, just doesn't want to use a litter box, and the Cat Attract litter has really helped a lot. I get mine online, thru Chewy.com, but it's available thru other sources, as well, and I'm pretty sure you can get it at the larger pet store chains. There is also a litter additive you can get, I bought some but haven't tried it yet.

    Just disregard this if it's already been discussed! :)
     
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  35. Critter Mom

    Critter Mom Well-Known Member

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    @robr - Thanks for the extra info. I was just wondering whether he might have a touch of neuropathy. I hear you on how tricky it is to measure small doses.
     
  36. robr

    robr Member

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    Yep, we've gone the cat attract route already, thanks for the idea though! :)
     
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  37. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    How's Warren, today? Always wishing him and you well.
     
  38. robr

    robr Member

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    Thanks for checking. I need to update the spreadsheet, he hit some low numbers again yesterday, (high 40s), I had to skip a dose again because of that, but he was looking good this morning. No litterbox accidents since 8/30 (but every time I post something like this I jinx myself).

    I started working with the micrometer yesterday to try to figure out measuring that way, but quickly realized I need a MUCH better magnifying glass. I think I'm going to order one of the head mounted 8x thingies someone else in this forum recommended.
     
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  39. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I used to refrain from talking (or typing) too. I know what you mean. Anti-jinx. Anti-jinx. Anti-jinx.

    I used a Pittsburgh 4" Digital Caliper and hand held led lighted magnifier, but I mostly just used reading glasses.

    You can get the B-12 to take home and do the shots yourself, if you are interested and your vet is willing.
     
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  40. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Carson Clip and Flip is one brand I've used. They clip onto existing glasses and go up to 3X.
     
  41. Kate and Kloever

    Kate and Kloever Member

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    I have no advice to give....but I'm praying BIG TIME for Mr. Warren!!! XO
     
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  42. Tucker&Me

    Tucker&Me Member

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    Always in my thoughts and prayers. ((Warren))
    ( Anti-jinx, anti-jinx for anyone who needs this vibe )
    Hugs :bighug: unending, for Rob Warren's super faithful bean!
     
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  43. pevsfreedom

    pevsfreedom Well-Known Member

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    I'm just glad Warren hasn't reached the 'end' yet!!!
     
  44. robr

    robr Member

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    Yep, the jinx is alive and well. He pooped by the back door today for the first time since we covered the back door and rear facing window so he can't see out. It's always fun when the family comes in through the back door and runs over the poop with the door. Cleaning the bottom of the door..... ewwww........... he's still having diarrhea. It's been months since I've seen a normal poop from the guy and it seems like the probiotic may cause pee accidents. I could try the probiotic a 3rd time I suppose.
     
  45. pevsfreedom

    pevsfreedom Well-Known Member

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    Probably said and done but can you relocate the box? Luna does the evil deed on the ceramic floor in the bathroom about once a week but usually because we don't clean it well enough to her taste. I 'aim' the box so the poop is in a 'safe' corner and just pick it up and wipe it with a bleach wipe, nice and easy clean-up.
     
  46. Bron and Sheba

    Bron and Sheba Well-Known Member

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    Feb 21, 2015
    Have you tried plain mashed pumpkin for the diarrhoea. Either make your own...nothing added or buy a can of it..the plain pumpkin with no additives. Not the pie pumpkin. Try a half to a teaspoon twice a day. It helped my cat a lot. Freeze any leftovers in an ice cream tray and use as needed. You can continue it indefinitely as long as it works
    Also have you had the urine tested for a UTI?
    What are you cleaning the messes up with? I think some things attract cats to go there again ...but I am not sure what ones are the ones to avoid. Maybe someone else knows.

    ETA........can you put something at the back door so that he can't actually poop there....eg a box or something similar. It would probably be a nuisance there but if it stopped him going there, it might be worth it. Just a thought.

    Have you tried shutting him in a room with the litter box for a time? Not ideal but might help retrain him..just another thought.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  47. Dyana

    Dyana Well-Known Member

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    I'm wishing Warren and you and your family a nice weekend.

    I would try to test more since he got that 47 on this dose recently.

    I use Nature's Miracle Advanced Formula Just For Cats for clean up.
     
  48. robr

    robr Member

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    Warren has been having a lot of accidents of late, 4 in the last 8 days. I can't keep hoping I'm going to be able to fix this. I start a new job in a couple of weeks and will be leaving early in the AM and not getting home until very late and my wife isn't going to provide the medical and cleanup attention he requires. I told my wife to take Warren to the vet today and just get it done. His appointment is at 5pm. My heart is so broken. It's been a heck of a run these last 6 months and I learned a ton about diabetes. Thank you everybody, you have all been such a phenomenal support network.
     
  49. robr

    robr Member

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    Warren sharing his last last meal with Star. No carb dry cat treats which I'd been using to try to help him with his litterbox problems. :( :(

    [​IMG]
     
  50. Kate and Kloever

    Kate and Kloever Member

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    Omgosh......I am SO SO SO SORRY.....my heart is just breaking for you.... :( :( :(
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2015
  51. Dusty Bones

    Dusty Bones Member

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    So very sorry it couldn't work out. You did everything. :rb_icon:
     
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  52. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Rob, you've tried everything anyone has suggested, you cleaned, you've tested, you've tried every food combo out there - you've gone WAY WAY above what most people would do for Warren. I'm SO sorry this is the final outcome, I know your heart is hurting so badly right now. Prayers for you to find peace with it.

    Soar high on your new angel wings Warren - you're so very loved.
     
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  53. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

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    Rob, I'm so, so sorry you've had to make this oh-so-hard decision. You and Warren have fought a long, hard fight, and you have done everything you could for him. He will live on forever in your heart.

    Fly free, sweet Warrencat_wings>o
     
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  54. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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    I'm so sorry for your loss.
    :bighug::bighug::bighug:

    cat_wings>o Fly free dear Warren... land softly.
     
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  55. robr

    robr Member

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    Mar 22, 2014
    2 more hours. He's sitting in my lap as he always does. I keep having second thoughts, I'm a complete invalid right now. I feel like I should have been able to fix this, but I'm getting old myself. Tomorrow is my 48th birthday. My wife suggested holding off until next week but I'd back out. I know first hand there are just some things that come with age that can't be fixed. Doesn't help the way this feels though. I feel like he's the last part of me that's pre-marriage, pre-kids.... and I love him so so much. I have such a headache from crying. Crap.
     
  56. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    Oh Rob:bighug::bighug::bighug:

    So very sorry to hear it has come to this, but nobody could have fought harder for dear Warren than you did. He knows how much you love him and how hard you tried

    Fly free sweet Warren and land softly....there will be many at the Bridge to welcome you and keep you company until the one you love most comes to be with you forever cat_wings>o
     
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  57. Jill & Alex (GA)

    Jill & Alex (GA) Senior Member Moderator

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  58. robr

    robr Member

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  59. Chris & China

    Chris & China Well-Known Member

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    Rob, I know this decision is killing you, but if you're not ready (and your wife is willing to give you more time without hassling you over it) maybe you can take a few days and even if it doesn't change the outcome, spend that time with Warren....spoil him, do everything you know he loves to do, feed him anything he wants, spend some time outdoors (if he likes that)....just make him "King of the castle"

    I'd hate for your birthday to always be connected to "the day Warren left" and you have to be at peace with the decision, one way or another.

    If the decision ends up to go ahead and let him go, I encourage you to be with him when it's time. I understand this is a very personal decision for each person and some just can't do it, but I can't imagine (no matter how bad it would hurt me) to not be the last eyes my China was looking into when I sent her on her final journey

    Maybe ask your vet to come to your home so Warren doesn't have to go to him

    Many hugs from everyone here...You know we care
     
  60. robr

    robr Member

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    Mar 22, 2014
    Thanks for that link above. It's so so beautiful and painful to read, but it makes me think even more this isn't fair. He isn't suffering. He seems perfectly health and happy. I feel like he's being sentenced to death because he will not use his litter box. I feel like that's not fair. But it's also not fair to my family to have him using the house as his litterbox. I feel I have tried absolutely everything I possibly can that won't disrupt the life of the people that live here. It was my hope beyond hope that I could get him reliably using the litterbox. I was hoping it was medical and diabetes related, but now I think it's just behavior. And we've gone with cat attract litter, prozac, feliway collars, covering the windows so he couldn't see neighborhood cats through the glass, B-12 shots, probiotics..... Removing all shoes, rubber backed rugs, backpacks from the kitchen. Cleaning the litterbox multiple times a day and adding another litterbox near the kitchen. Multiple UTI tests.

    The only time he will use his litterbox 100% is when he's trapped in a bathroom with it. That's no way for him to live, but we (meaning the people that live here) can't live with cleaning up after him and destroying a home that we rent. If I were a single guy, I wouldn't do this. But it's not fair to my family.

    Now I'm starting to think maybe I should have another UTI test done. We've done 3 already but it's been several months and I know these diabetic guys can be prone to them. Maybe one last one.
     
  61. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Rob - trust your heart....if you want one more UTI test then take the time to do it. If you doubt, take the time....oh how we all wish we could take away some of the hurt you're going thru right now.

    Hugs and headbutts,
     
  62. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Rob, I know you are struggling with your decision. Go with what your heart tells you is right for you and Warren. Please don't make a decision based on what anyone else expects, or thinks you should do. You know Warren better than anybody else in the world, and he trusts you to make the right choice for him. If you think another UTI test should be done, then do it. Squeakey and KT hit the nail on the head - "If you doubt, take the time..."
     
  63. Kate and Kloever

    Kate and Kloever Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2015
    You took the words right out of my mouth...ALL OF THEM!!! I too think it would be best to hold off...but if the decision is still yes...have the Vet come to your home. I had my Woodstock pass away in my arms...looking at me...as HORRIBLE as that was...I too wanted my eyes to be the last he saw.. I'm so sorry this is happening.... :( :( :(
     
  64. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    I just changed his 5pm appointment from death into hope. One more C&S. Buys me another 4 or 5 days with him at a minimum.
     
  65. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Rob, I haven't been here in a while - too many other things going on recently. But @Kate and Kloever very kindly told me about your posts this morning. I have to add to the call to wait if you have ANY doubt at all - this isn't a decision you can take back later, so you have to be 100% certain that it's the only thing left to do. And yes, if you do have to go ahead (hopefully not today) please be with Warren at the end. I know it's heart-breaking, but it's one time when he really needs you to be with him.
     
  66. Kate and Kloever

    Kate and Kloever Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2015
    I'm SO SO HAPPY for the two of you!!!!!! XO XO :D
     
  67. Meya14

    Meya14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
  68. SpecklesandMe

    SpecklesandMe Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Could he have sterile cystitis? Have you tried giving him glucosamine/hyaluronic acid (marketed as Cosequin for cats)? That, plus a cat-safe NSAID could be a good last resort.
    What kind of litter do you use?
     
  69. Dusty Bones

    Dusty Bones Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Dusty will pee in the tub at least once a week, I don't know why but of all the places he can "inappropriately" pee this place is just fine with me! I also have removed rubber backed rugs because he would pee on those too but now just pees in the tub, he might like the privacy. :cat:
    Glad you're giving Warren more time!!
     
  70. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    I've had less issues with my "problem child" going outside the box since I switched to Okocat reclaimed wood litter. For some reason, all my cats seem to prefer it over other types of liter. Pricey, though.
     
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  71. Kate and Kloever

    Kate and Kloever Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2015
  72. Daphne

    Daphne Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2015
    When/if it comes down to euthanasia, you should seriously considering being there with Warren. You are his person. He will be looking for you. Yes, it's horrible, but there is no reason to make it more horrible than it already is. You have provided great care and comfort to him for so long--don't let this last, extremely important moment be the time you aren't there for him.

    As others have suggested, you can ask around to see if a vet will come to your home to perform euthanasia if you think that would be less stressful to Warren.

    This is terrible. I have been checking on your thread for a long time hoping things would improve. I was so sure it would get better.

    Just a shot in the dark, but... how much consideration have you given to confining Warren (and perhaps your other cat, too) to one room permanently? I know you said keeping him in the bathroom with a litter box was the only way he would 100% use the box and you didn't consider that a good life for him, but is there possibly another room well-suited for Warren? The estimates vary, but cats sleep for the majority of the day, so being confined to one room isn't so bad. Have a nice window to look out, a variety of comfortable beds and scratching posts, fantastic water fountains, delicious eats, and daily visits from the family for playing, brushing, and cleaning. It could be a very, very good life.

    It's not a terribly unusual concept to limit pets to one or more specific rooms. Give it some serious thought.

    Good luck with your decision.
     
  73. Merlin

    Merlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2014
    I am so glad Warren is still with you. I have been thinking about him all day and have been so sad. I agree with the others that if you do decide, you need to be with him. He trusts you; you are his caretaker and the one that cares for him.

    Another consideration that I have not read yet (I don't think) is have you thought of someone else that would take Warren? Just maybe, he may not take those litter box issues with him for some reason. It would take a special person to take on the diabetes but you have done an amazing job controlling the disease. Maybe a trial or something or a short temporary stay just to see. I don't know, am just pulling at straws to help Warren out.
     
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  74. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Rob - I know everyone is encouraging you to be there if Warren has to go to the Bridge BUT you do what YOU are comfortable with. My husband can't be there either...that's all he remembers if he is. He'd rather remember the happy times.
     
  75. Love-Paula aka Woodsywife

    Love-Paula aka Woodsywife Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Of course rule out any infection. Smokey did the same thing since he was 1 yr. He is now 17 yrs. But he has been with 4 other family members. I acquired him 1 yr ago. I really observed him. He was wetting, pooping, vomiting all over my parents house. Carpet was absolutely saturated.

    So what I witnessed was this. It was behavioral most of the time. Diabetes did play a part but only because of the volume he put out.

    The box he had at my parents house was way to small. It had a lid. It looked like it was never washed.

    When I cat napped him. I got a very large box. No lid. It's not in a corner. It's washed and new litter scent free every week. Smokey is a large cat. Does not go in box all the way. Some he goes over the side. Puppy pads around the edges take care of the spilling. Once he uses it he won't use it again until it's scooped. He will not wet and poop in same box. So he has 2 of them. One box with just y st a puppy pad in it. He will use that sometimes. If he goes on the floor it's because I didn't scoop or clean box.

    For the vomiting, that was mostly diabetes related (gastro praises) not sure of spelling. I changed his food. His dry food was changed to grain-free. The can food was upgraded from the cheap no frills food. He did get medicine for awhile. Feed small amounts every 2 hrs around the clock for 2 weeks. Then slowly increased food and intervals. He has not vomited in 6 months. Or go on the floors purposely for over a year.

    Once you get his numbers good. Really observed him. It might just be a matter of changing some things.
     
  76. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    Thanks everybody so so so much for all your support and ideas, but I think we're beyond any further experimenting at this point. My wife has had it. I could see how frustrated she was yesterday when I chose to cancel his euthanasia and decided to spend another $200 on a UTI test. I have to give Warren the benefit of the doubt, but 4 straight days of pooping in the kitchen and she's going out of her tree because it's been going on for 6 months. While his numbers are much better, his litterbox behavior is probably worse if anything. I don't blame her, I don't hold it against her, I'm not feeling backed into a corner or resentful. I understand where she is coming from and I appreciate that she's given me 6 months to do everything I could, spending a boatload of $$$ to try to fix this. I'm probably over $1500 and we aren't wealthy people by any means. At some point I knew I'd have to be willing to choose family over Warren and we're there. I am praying he has a UTI. But if he doesn't, I've made my decision and as miserable as I'll be, I know that I've done everything I can for him and I'll be able to live with it. However I don't think I can be there for him at the end. There is no way I could watch my baby die in my arms and not have nightmares every night. Just the thought of it now has me in tears again. My mom did that with her cat and she was forever a wreck because of it. Maybe my wife would be willing, I'll cross that bridge when I have to.
     
  77. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    {{hugs}}
    whatever happens.
     
  78. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    Thanks BJM, you and Critter Mom have been along for the ride with me this whole time and I can't begin to tell you how thankful I am.
     
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  79. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    I'm glad you've found our support helpful.

    Even if you find an answer, it may not be one that is curable. My one cat who was peeing everywhere turned out to have a bone cancer. It had invaded the kidneys, causing them to fail, thus the excessive urination. Chemo and leg amputation were done because we thought we found it early. It had already metastasized to the kidneys, though, and renal failure was the ultimate cause of death. You just never know.

    .
     
  80. JL and Chip

    JL and Chip Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    You have my sympathy--litterbox issues can really drive you to the edge.

    Before you give up, might I suggest you try baby diapers? It probably sounds crazy, but it has saved my sanity. It's a last resort, but sometimes it "contains" the situation and gives you enough of a breather to think more clearly. I have an incontinent cat and he's been in diapers for around 7 years now. Out of sheer desperation, I also used them for another cat who had behavioral issues until we could work through them.

    You will want to be diligent about changing the diaper when soiled and have fragrance-free baby wipes (or a damp washrag) on hand to tidy up the back end (just as you would for a baby). I use Huggies size 2, and snip a hole for the tail. I put them on so the Velcro attaches on top of his back. Many cats don't try to take them off, but you can also secure with a bit of tape if needed. I can give you lots of hints and tricks should you decide to give it a try.

    I have to add that the sense of relief was immesurable once I figured this out. And in hindsight, using diapers was quite the non-event--much easier than either of the alternatives (cleaning a soiled house, euthanasia). It was a well-deserved truce after a long-fought battle. I only wish I'd happened upon it sooner.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  81. Cat Ma

    Cat Ma Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Cats are very adaptable with diapers. They don't have vanity issues like we do. :) I know this has been a very difficult, painful journey for you. You have done so much and love your cat so dearly. Please get some rest and give this some more thought. Please let us know what the outcome of the tests were. If it's not UTI, perhaps it is something else that can be treated. I had a cat that kept going outside the box and made a mess everywhere for awhile. He had a bladder infection that was easily treated. He went back to using his litter box when the infection was cleared up.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
  82. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Brilliant! This seems like it might be worth trying. I know I would give it a shot!
     
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  83. Tucker&Me

    Tucker&Me Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2015
    Anyone heard anything from @robr about Warren?
    Saying a prayer for both today.
     
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  84. Mitzelplik's Mom

    Mitzelplik's Mom Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2015
    Rob, my heart goes out to you and Warren. Whatever you decided, I hope you can find comfort in the fact that you did everything you could for him and I have no doubt he understood that.
     
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  85. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    I'm being intentionally silent. Every time I write something positive, I jinx Warren. Current bathroom story is available via the spreadsheet. He did not have a UTI unfortunately. I'll try to get a copy of his lab results tomorrow and share. Vet was concerned about kidneys because the last two tests he has had extremely dilute urine. He still spends a lot of time at his water bowl even when his numbers are good. No glucose in his urine. His numbers have been higher of late. Today I moved him back to 0.6 but I have to be really careful, he hit a 38 not long ago at that dosage. And that was at +12, so for sure the nadir was even lower (usually around +7-9). He also hasn't been looking too well the past week, but the higher numbers could just be taking a toll. He's been hanging out in some strange spots too. I've taken him off prozac. Didn't do anything to improve the situation after a month. Diapers are an absolute no go. My wife would have to be involved in that and she will not do that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2015
  86. Cat Ma

    Cat Ma Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2015
    Such hard news, I know. Easier said than done but try to take it one step at a time. Let us know the results as soon as you can. We are here for you.
     
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  87. Love-Paula aka Woodsywife

    Love-Paula aka Woodsywife Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2015
    Not knowing is the hardest. Was he tested for thyroid? How much positive interaction does Warren have with you wife? Does she ignore him, scold him when he does go, play with him? He could be looking for her acceptance.

    I had this trouble with Smokey. He came from a house he did the same thing. He was in a closed room and he didn't like it, his box was wrong for him and not scooped enough to his liking.

    At my house he has a much bigger box, it is not in a corner or have a cover. The litter he was used to was fresh step. Apparently the carbon irritated him. So now we use precious cat litter. It's scooped 5-6 times a day or when ever something is in it. He won't use same box to wet and poop. He now has 3 boxes. He is praised when he uses them. Smokey likes people he does not like being alone which he was for 12 years.

    I used Cat Attract additive to get him to use the box. You sprinkle it on the litter. Tidy Cat also puts out a training litter I used. I don't need to anymore but took a some time to retrain him. And is 17 .

    There is also a puppy pan that has a low entry side that might work. And the puppy training tray. It's flat and you put a puppy pad in or on it.

    Smokey whole life changed when I acquired him right down to his water. I have well water. You can read his story in threads Hello, continuous saga of Smokey and Smokey Saga Chapter 3.

    I put a plastic table cloth from dollar store on the floor and then puppy pads on top, then the box. No purposeful wetting outside of box. Occasionally he overshoots the box or will poops outside but it's because I didn't scoop. Puppy pads take care of that.

    I hope you can figure out what is causing it. But something is. Smokey did it because his set up wasn't to his liking. It took time of fixing one thing at a time.
     
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  88. Tucker&Me

    Tucker&Me Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2015
    Understood Robr. God bless you & Warren.
    Yes, we are here for you as CatMa said above.
     
  89. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    My wife loves him and he often sits in her lap as well. She is just going into self-preservation mode and distancing herself emotionally.

    img-150917200442-0001.jpg img-150917200442-0002.jpg img-150917200442-0003.jpg
     
  90. manxcat419

    manxcat419 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2015
    Rob, this is a total long shot and you may already have had him tested for this (I don't remember exactly what tests you've already had done) but his USG is pretty low - my Rosa just tested at 1.015 with CKD and I was told that's low for a cat. As he's not concentrating his urine very well, it might be that he can't actually make it to his litter box on time. If you haven't already done so, you might want to consider blood work to check his kidney values just to make sure there isn't something going on there that hasn't already been noticed. Rosa's was only picked up at a check up where the vet was able to feel that one of her kidneys was bigger and lumpier than it should be.
     
  91. Meya14

    Meya14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    To add to the won't hurt, might help list - You tried the prozac to no avail, you tried the litterbox interventions with no improvement, you've addressed UTI issues, and that doesn't seem to be it. Perhaps it's pain? My old lady cat (she's 16) has on and off litterbox issues related to pain issues. She has had flares of joint swellings in her legs since she was 4 or 5 from an accident. She also has arthritis with fused vertebra in her lower back. Her most recent bout of peeing/pooping on rugs was because she was having trouble going down the stairs. Moving the box/retraining was enough this time. Her pain isn't bad now, but vet recommended if box issues happen again, to try to treat for pain, and see if that helps. When cats are uncomfortable they will go wherever is most comfortable for them, often its on those soft carpets.

    Buprenorphine is the med most here use, as the anti-inflamatory drugs are hard on cat's kidneys. If it does turn out to be something worse than arthritis, then having the pain meds on hand is a good idea anyway.
     
  92. Merlin

    Merlin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 18, 2014
    If it is a litter box issue and possibly a pain thing as mentioned above, maybe a very low litter container. Ok this may be a stupid idea but here it is. My water heater went out about two months ago. I just started shopping for another one this week. You know that pan that goes under the water heater? It is big and low...maybe that would help those cats that have problems getting into the litter box. I also remember reading a great idea of someone taking one of those big tote containers (like Rubbermaid but you can find something cheaper) and cutting a side out so the cat can get in and out easier. Also for those cats that like to stand up and pee, these tote containers have high sides and it keeps everything in the box. Just trying to keep thinking of suggestions...
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
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  93. SpecklesandMe

    SpecklesandMe Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Hi Robr, I agree with the above... in fact, this is really, really important because if you don't have a urine protein:creatinine ratio or BUN/creatinine numbers from bloodwork, assumptions about kidney issues should not be made. If these values come back normal, it would mean he doesn't have kidney issues, in which case I would immediately put him on desmopressin shots on a trial basis. My cat's urine was almost exactly as dilute as Warren's, and with the desmopressin, he started concentrating it at 1.050 within a week. In a way, desmopressin was an easy fix, and the dx was partial diabetes insipidus, which is very rare in cats, but part of that might be because most vets don't check for it. Within a couple weeks of my cat being diagnosed with it, my vet started checking other cats for it in his practice and found another case. It's worth a shot.
    If you already have a UPCR or BUN/creatinine, please post those as well. My cat lived normally for almost 3 yrs after starting the desmopressin...
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2015
  94. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    Speckles, that's pretty interesting. The vet was supposed to give me a copy of his blood work lab results as well but looks like they missed copying that one. I'll try to get back over there Monday and get a copy. They were done back in April I think.

    I don't think it's pain, he jumps into and out of my lap, goes up and down stairs no problem. He doesn't seem to have any issue getting in and out of the litter box. It's probably only 4" tall at the entry point.
    On the other hand he does seem to be slightly stiff and wobbly sometimes, especially if he's been sitting for a while. Arthritis? If I break out a laser pointer though, he doesn't have much problem chasing the dot around. As I type this he just jumped off my lap down onto the floor without issue and is cleaning himself.

    I will look into Buprenorphine anyway.

    As always, thanks for all the ideas and support.
     
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  95. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    With arthritis in humans, one is a bit stiff until some movement loosens things up. Then it becomes a bit easier to move. Perhaps the same is true in cats.
     
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  96. robr

    robr Member

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2014
    That was my reasoning as well
     
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  97. Meya14

    Meya14 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2015
    Stiff and unsteady is how jane shows her arthritis. She still runs around and is generally active, but I know it's there. She no longer tries to go upstairs, and hesitates sometimes when trying to jump up on stuff. Still plays, still seems just fine. I know this was an issue with her box problems because it was in the basement. Sometimes during the old injury flares, the first sign would be pooping in a corner, then a day or two later, she'd have a limp.
     
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  98. Kate and Kloever

    Kate and Kloever Member

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2015
    I really wish I had known about this when my Woodstock's health was failing. I just thought his kidneys were failing too when his urine had no odor... :'(
     
  99. Squalliesmom

    Squalliesmom Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2015
    Rob, my old boy Squallie has some arthritis. I don't often notice it; he still plays and chases laser mice, and occasionally ambushes another kitty for a tussle, but I know it's there. He maybe doesn't play quite as often as he used to, sometimes - not always - has a little bit of indecisiveness figuring how to jump up on something (that was really my first clue), only sometimes does he have actual difficulty with it. It's very subtle; cats are so very good at hiding pain! If you don't look really hard sometimes you won't see what they're trying so hard to hide. :):)
     
  100. SpecklesandMe

    SpecklesandMe Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2015
    Honestly, a lot of vets don't even know/think about DI... of the vets that have heard of it, when I would say my cat had it, they were always completely amazed.
     
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