What to feed my diabetic cat in the UK

I had been giving him a little of that Johnsons's hairball treatment now and then because it seems like he gets hairballs. He is an indoor cat.

But anyway, these vets seem to just want to put Moses to sleep. Its like they have it in their heads that its what is best. Because I had told the vet when this first happened that I didnt have that much money.

I was reading yesterday about a raw foods diet. And how that can make a cat get over their diabetes without insulin? But its hard for me to believe a cat could eat raw chicken. Yuck! I was reading that a recipe for that was on this site, but I cant find it?
http://catinfo.org/?link=felinediabetes

I keep thinking of that one time when a cat we had taken in, which we named Maggie Mae, she suddenly went to where she wouldnt eat or drink a thing and turned into a skeleton almost overnight. I took her to the vet and he said there was nothing they could do and she needed to be put to sleep but I refused to do it. I took her home and started force-feeding her a half jar of veal baby food a day with a dropper full of water mixed with a little pure powdered charcoal to get rid of any impurities. And in about a week she coughed up a gigantic hairball, gained all her weight back quickly and before I knew it she was back to normal, playing around the house as usual. So I sort of have a distrust of Vets, anyway.

I just think that they know I dont have a carload of money and so they want to put Moses to sleep

That vet last night, when I asked if it was possible to get a cat back to normal with just diet and no insulin, he said no it isnt possible.

 

Hi Claudia,

Did you find out if your diabetic friend has Ketostix? As I was saying, if you could get hold of some of those then you can test Moses urine for ketones yourself and know if there is a problem there. The reason I'm suggesting this is that ketones - if present - can build up very quickly and become extremely dangerous. The condition they cause -diabetic ketoacidosis - is also very expensive to treat. So it's really, really important that you test Moses pee if you can.

 

No I checked and he said no he doesnt have any Ketostix.

But in about an hour and a half I am going to collect Mose's urine and take it to the Vet to check for that. I dont have a way to get there till then.

 

Claudia

Breathe hon....first off your vet is full of it. Yes a diabetic cat can be controlled with just diet, there is living proof sleeping on my bed at this very moment. And there are many many more on this board. Most but not all do require a little time on insulin so their pancreas can heal and take back over the job again of making their own insulin. And Moses may need a little insulin to jump start him too, but that should be no big deal.

Human meters work just fine, my own vet uses a human meter for her diabetic patients. But with your vets you may have to go in with a firm backbone and not ask but tell them how you want to treat YOUR cat. Remember the vet works for you, not the other way around. My vets are awesome but when I first started out with diabetic cats they weren't great with feline diabetes, they just don't see that many of them. But they were open minded and I was firm. I told them I wanted to treat and no I didn't need a bunch of fancy tests nor did I need them to run curves in the office. All I need was a script for their insulin, and in my case I told them exactly which insulin I wanted for my cats. I took in documentation from here to show why I wanted what I wanted, that I had done my homework. I even offered to sign a waiver if necessary stating it was my choice to treat this cat this way.

You can test for Ketones at home just like a human diabetic will, the strips are very cheap. You just simply stick them in fresh urine, wait 15 seconds and match the color on the little stick to the color chart on the side of the bottle to read.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

I just posted and it disappeared!

Was just saying don't believe a vet if he says you can't control FD with diet alone - it can be possible and you may be one of the lucky ones. Could you ring around a couple of other vets and ask their opinion in principle on this? Not all vets are as clued-up as others on FD. They don't have much training in it and only some take it upon themselves to study in more depth.

I'd also suggest starting a new thread asking for support about vets, ie not just UK foods. You'll get replies from our American friends and that support may be what you need to keep going. This is a long hard road and we all need all the support we can get.

Best of luck
Diana

 

Okay MommaofMuse...

Lets see what this urine test comes out like today and I will take it from there then.

The good news, is it seems he is doing better today.

All day he has kept on wanting me to hold him on my shoulder. I get him up on my shoulder and walk around with him, patting his back and his behind, I have done that since he was a kitten. He ... as usual, was a big baby going to the vet, so I think he needed extra love today.

 

Dianne,

Yes I saw two different vets there at the same office... one the first time I brought him in for this problem and another one last night and they both told me it wont matter what I feed him.

 

Well, I'm afraid you may have to be a little more tenacious - try ringing other vet practices, not just different ones at the same place. Quite a few of us on this board have transferred vets to one that is better-versed in FD. I changed mine to one who would prescribe the insulin I wanted, rather than staying with my other, long-standing one who insisted Caninsulin was the only insulin suitable for cats. Sometimes vets just need educating!

Diana

 

Claudia, in the US, a bottle of 50 Ketostix or KetoDiastic from the pharmacy usually costs about half of what it costs to have a vet dip a single stick into a sample of urine. With finances being an issue for you, a test at home might be the better way to go.

But you do have other reasons to take Mose to the vet. But you were only talking about taking his urine there, so....

 

But I think I actually already paid for the urine test last night though... I just have to bring it in to the vet now.

 

Hey Claudia,
Is he walking normally today? If he's still 'wobbly' due to his diabetes then that can be fixed.
Don't worry about having a vet with bad info. On this board there are hundreds of examples of diabeticats who have their disease controlled by diet alone.
I have spoken with 5 of them about Milo now (all at the same practice) and they all have different views. Had I followed the first vet's advice Milo would be dead now. It took me a few weeks to convince them to change his insulin & he's doing really well now. As the others of said, we can't expect all vets to be diabetes experts, because they have to see patients of many different species with many different problems.
Let us know how the ketone wee test goes?
We'll try & sort him out one step at a time.

J
xx

 

Yes Moses is walking normally today. I probably just freaked out a little too much last night

 

Personally if it was me, I would get the ketostixs, test Moses at home and if he is negative on ketones I would ring up the vet and tell them to apply what I just paid for a pointless urine test to a future bill for his insulin or they can refund you your money. That you have decided that you want to treat his diabetes and will not consider put to sleep until you give it a go. That they can either work with you, or you will be shopping for a new vet that will.

But that is just my 2 cents worth.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

I tend to agree with Mel - stand your ground with the vet and show them how dedicated an owner you are. Sometimes vets are quite open to being educated by us mere mortals, and by doing our bit to inform them with our own experiences, they can pass on that experience/knowledge to future patients. The thing is, it is important for most of us to have our vet on side and it's true that they are the health professionals who actually see the cat, so you need one I think who you really feel you can trust and wants the best for you.

Diana

 

When they do a urine test for the ketosis do they also test for blood sugar?

I ask because last night he was looking at Moses records and commenting on how high it was with the last test about a month or so ago.

I am wondering, if they test again for the sugar and see it has dropped dramatically, they might tend to listen to me more?

 

if they're using the ketodiastix, then they will be testing for glucose in the urine too.

However, blood glucose gives much more information. If you can test him at home (which you can), then test him & let the vet know your reading. They will only do a blood glucose test if you pay for it.

But, if they are not listening to you, Claudia, even when you show them you can blood test at home, then you should try a different vet.

 

My problem is that I have no transportation and cant walk there because of my disability. And this vet is the one that is close. Its very frustrating.

 

Well, if you are stuck with this practice, then you are simply gonna have to be persuasive & stick to your guns, OK?

You know what's good for Moses, you've known him a long time. You know what kind of food to give him now he's diabetic, and If you can blood test, then you can give insulin, if he needs it.

The vet needs to prescribe the insulin (if/when necessary), but we can help you.

Now what's happening with those ketones?

 

I finally got Moses to go wee, and my friend had his own blood tests done today and the Doctor just called for him to come in about it, and so he is now on his way with Mose's urine to stop and drop that off at the Vet and then he will go to his own Doctor's visit.

So all I have to do now is wait till the Vet calls, after they run the test on it.

 

We're all keeping fingers and paws crossed for you about that test, Claudia.

A quick word about Moses' food:
I know he's still getting constipated and that's something that needs to be resolved. But to keep his blood glucose levels lower it is important to stick to wet/canned food if at all possible. Maybe he does just need a different type?

I'm re-posted my list from yesterday because the post disappeared. These are just some of the foods that are available from supermarkets (the ones I've had the time to do the carb calculations for).

Butcher’s Classic, 8.8
Asda - Tiger Pouch with Chicken & Turkey in Jelly, 7.8
Asda - Tiger Foil Tasty Meat Selection Pack (higher protein pate style), 2.7
Asda -Tiger Pouch Meat Favourites in Jelly, 7.8
Felix foils meat selection, 7.2
Sainsbury's Cat Food, Meat & Fish Selection In Jelly, 2
Sainsbury's Chunks In Jelly With Salmon 100g, 2
Sainsbury's Cat Food, Smooth Pâté With Chicken & Rabbit 100g, 7
Sainsbury's For Senior Cats, Pouches In Jelly 12x100g, 2

There is also Toplife Chicken Dinner available from Asda in tetra packs. I couldn't find the protein/fat/moisture analysis for this one online but understand that it is less than 10% calories from carbs.

The Whiskas 'simply grilled' that you're feeding Moses at the moment is a tad high in carbs for a diabetic cat. According to the label it comes out at around 10.4% calories from carbs.

When looking for other foods I would suggest you avoid any cat food that has 'vegetable protein extract' on the label. In some cats this ingredient can really elevate the blood glucose.

You also asked about giving Moses raw food. It's perfectly OK to give Moses treats or snacks of ordinary raw meat if he will eat it. But feeding cats raw food as the bulk of their diet is a bit more complicated... Raw meat on it's own isn't a complete food. (It's rather like giving a cat 'fillet of mouse' rather than 'the whole mouse'...if you see what I mean...) So, plain meat needs to have other things added to it to make it a complete food. But if Moses comes to like snacks or treats of raw meat then maybe making raw food is something to consider in the future...?

 

Thanks so much I copied and pasted all of that!

The Vet told my friend when he dropped off the urine sample that they'd call either tonight or tomorrow to let me know the results, unless it needs to be sent off for further tests. I am guessing that if it needs to be sent off, that must mean bad news.

 

With a "send-off" test, I suspect that they are having a urinalysis done, which would not include a urinary ketone test.

 

Its only YUCK to us humans...remember in the wild they would be eating all kinds of little critters like mice, gophers, birds, moles etc and I have yet to meet a cat that could cook let alone build a fire to do so...lol :lol: :lol: :lol: Seriously mine all love treats of raw meat, and Autumn I think would crawl over broken glass to get to a chunk of raw chicken, in fact it was what I used to reward her for being nice to the other kitties when I first adopted her, since she went so crazy for it, it was perfect thing to reward her when she would allow the other cats to approach her or when she would play nice with them.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Seriously? wow raw chicken... I might have to give that a try... and if he doesnt like it I could make chicken loaf out of it :lol:

 

And at least raw chicken doesn't come with feathers like say a sparrow or fur like a mouse...lol. Seriously cats are carnivorses so they like raw meat. And the only real difference between the kitties on our couches and lions and tigers is size.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

nailbite_smile it looks like they are not going to call me today, its after 8:00 at night here now.

I have to try and not worry

Although it could be because he took in the urine sample so late... like after 4:00 or so and it closes at 6.

 

(((Claudia))), I know it's worrying. Every time something happens to Bertie I feel that it knocks a few years off my own life just through the sheer stress of it all! Cats, eh? :roll:

But the chances are that Moses will be just fine.

Give Moses a big hug, and try to get some good sleep tonight.

 

Okay I will do that

You know whats strange? Today Moses came and hopped up on my lap when I was sitting in my chair, which he has not done for a couple of years. He has acted like his skin bothers him for some reason. Maybe that was the onset of the diabetes. But anyway he came right up and hopped up in my lap today.

Maybe he was just happy he didnt get left at the Vets office.

Poor kitty, he has been through 4 airplane flights and moved 6 different houses since just 2007. Having to get a bunch of vacinnations to be able to come to the UK. Thats why I just hate having to take him to the vet.

But anyway it was super nice having him jump into my lap today.

 

Hi Claudia,

Any news from your vet yet about Moses' urine test...?

 

No they still have not called me yet. I might have to wait all the way till Monday.

 

Have you called them, Claudia? Might be worth a bell....

 

Okay I just called them a few minutes ago. The lady at the desk said she didn't see anything on there but she would have the Vet give me a ring.

 

I just got a call from the Vet. It turns out he is an Assistant Vet that checked Moses the other night, But anyway he said the good news is that Moses did NOT have any ketones in his urine. But he said he still has high blood sugar though.

Then I told him that I had been going to an online forum and talking with people who have dealt with many diabetic cats and many of them had gone into remission.

I said that some of them had been able to do their own tests at home and bypass the tests at the Vet so that the cost went down. And I asked if I could be able to do that. I said that Ive got £80 now, and in a couple of weeks I would have about £180. And I wondered if I could be able to make payments. Because, I said... Moses still plays with me, and I feel really badly, I dont want to put him to sleep if its possible to get this diabetes under control.

He said he understands and that he was just an Assistant but that he would email Del, the main Vet there that had seen Moses the first time about his problem. He said he would ask if we could set up a payment plan.

He said that they would still have to do all the tests, because they have to do that, because if he's got other problems then it could be more difficult to get things under control, but that they have to check him for various problems.

So how's that? He doesnt have ketones in his urine, and I became more assertive with him about everything.

 

Sounds like it's going in the right direction Claudia, well done!

Diana

 

I forgot to add that also, Moses was limping this morning. He does that once in awhile since this all happened to him. But he didnt throw up this morning, and I told the Vet all of that.

I also told him what I think now is the problem. I said, I think it is because when this first happened. Moses kept losing alot of weight. But then recently I have been feeding him alot of food, and he has been getting really fat in his belly, he looks like he is having kittens any moment, but his body frame, his bones are like a skinny cat. And I think its hard for him to carry around his belly like that, and that I think the nutrients are not being absorbed properly into the rest of his body.

He said I was probably right about that.

Then I said, that is why I want to talk to you about something and ask a question... because I think if he could just start on the insulin and start absorbing his nutrients into his body properly, he might be alright... then I started asking about a payment plan etc..

 

Thank you!

 

Way to Go!!! Sounds like things are starting to move in the right direction for you and Moses...and we will all be here cheering you on. Not sure you saw this recent post http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=88994 but perhaps you could either print it out and take it to your vet or talk with Milo's mom and see if her vet will talk to your vet about them. It might be better received from a peer by your vet. Or even offer your vet a link to our site as well as Moses spreadsheet so they can track him along with you...Who knows you and Moses may also help to broaden their horizons for future diabetic kitties in the UK.

Best of Luck and cheers from across the pond.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Okay MommaofMuse, Thanks so much and I will get this printed out then for my Vet!

 

Hi Claudia,

How are you? And how is Moses doing?

 

Hi,

Moses is doing okay. I had a loan person come to my house yesterday and she will come back today. I am seeing about getting a loan so I can pay for everything, doing the tests, etc. And right when she was going out the back door, my mobile phone rang and by the time I got to it, there was just a message and it turns out it was from my Vet... the main one. He said he would call me back today. So hopefully its to discuss with me about making payments.

So I will have to see what happens today.

 

Claudia, it's good to hear from you. :smile:

Is Moses just eating low carb canned/wet food now? No dry food at all?

And have you managed to get any more blood test results from him?

 

Yes he is eating all wet food now. I cannot do another blood test or anything on him at the moment. He is mad at me. I tried to brush his teeth the other day. (with no luck)

His breath is awful and I think he may have a sore tooth. Two years ago he got his teeth cleaned and two teeth removed.

 

Hi Claudia, I'm sorry to hear Moses may have a sore tooth - dental problems are not at all uncommon in cats and sometimes can contribute to high BGs, so something else to take into account. Maybe you can mention this to your vet so he is aware of the overall situation - it will help him to help Moses if he knows these things.
I know it's a lot to take on board, both emotionally and financially, and I really sympathise. I can only say that a sympathetic vet should understand and do his utmost to help you.
Good luck
Diana

 

How did the talk with the vet go, Claudia?

And how is Moses? Is his mouth still bothering him...?

 

Are you OK, Claudia?

Any news from the vet?

 

Hi,

The Vet never did call me back and neither did the Loan Company.

I am starting to wonder about everything now. I worry about Moses because of his ears. He had polyps in his ears and it was driving him mad and he had an operation to remove them. Now they are coming back. The Vet had told me before, that even if they can manage to get the diabetes under control that when his polyps come back he would need to have another operation.

The cost of all of these tests plus another ear operation, plus his teeth getting cleaned, is just out of this world for me. I called the other day and it is £150 just to get his teeth cleaned. Its well over £300 for all these tests. Then £300 for his ear operation. I only am getting £200 a month. Right now I am spending alot of money like £27 for a case of Liquivite, and £30 for a case of Gourmet Gold, and £14 for a case of Whiskas wet food, plus £12 every two weeks for his cat litter. I barely have anything left for myself to live on.

When I took him in the other night, when I thought that he was getting ketosis, it cost me £50. The Assistant Vet told me over the phone the other day that its going to be £40 a month for his insulin.

What I am worried about is that I would actually manage to get him on insulin and him get ketosis, and me not have the money to even take him in for emergency treatment.

I am wondering if ... realistically, he would be better off if I just left him on this wet food diet and left it at that. He seems well enough off and happy.

One of the reasons I am worried also, is that this friend of mine who I am staying with, who is a diabetic, he is on insulin and they checked his blood the other day and its up to 20.0 or more, I cant remember the exact reading. Thats as much as Moses was at, when I first checked him. So I worry I will get Moses on Insulin and if it does the same thing, that his levels could get right back to where they were, when he is already on insulin, and then he would probably worse off than he already is now.

I just wonder that if he gets on insulin, he would be dependent upon that, and if his levels raise anyway, if this would make it get so far out of control that there would be nothing I could do about it.

I just dont know enough about all of this, and honestly, I wonder if I would be making things worse for Moses by trying to get him on insulin, when perhaps I wouldnt have the money to be able to follow through on it all. Then I worry if I got him on insulin, if something happened and I couldnt afford to keep him on it, and what would happen then if he is suddenly taken off of it.

Plus the ear polyp thing as well. Seriously, I would do just anything for this cat. But now I am wondering if I would only make things worse for him. Because my money situation plus his ear problems, etc... makes his situation unique.

 

Also, I would like to look into this raw foods diet, to see if I couldnt perhaps get Moses all better just using that. It would make me feel more at ease with the whole thing that way.

 

Also, I really do believe it was the ear operation that caused this whole thing. Because it was soon after that, that Moses started having the diarhea and then the thirst, and then the
wee-ing all the time. They gave him antibiotics.

So I am just trying to be realistic about things so that in my love for him and my zeal for him to get better, I dont actually end up making things worse for him.

 

Hi Claudia,

My heart goes out to you. I know that you love Moses very much, and fully understand that your limited income is making things really difficult.

But there are things you can do.

I believe that the single most useful thing you can do for Moses right now is to get more accustomed to testing his blood glucose. And, given that your friend can get supplies for you, this shouldn't cost you anything at all.

It would be SO helpful to know what Moses' blood glucose levels are like now the dry food has been removed. Knowing this will give us a much more accurate picture of how advanced Moses' diabetes is.

Yes, it may be that Moses does need to go onto insulin. But that might only be for a short time. And if you can hometest this will save you a lot of money in vet's bills. If Moses does need to go onto insulin then the sooner that happens the better his chances of not needing insulin in the future.

Regarding insulin, am I right in thinking that you have some Caninsulin that Juliet sent you? That should reduce your initial cost. And it's possible too to buy some supplies online too and save money that way.

If Moses is on insulin it is far less likely that he will get ketosis.

Regarding ketones, if you PM me your address I will send you a tub of Ketodiastix so that you can test Moses' pee at home for ketones and glucose ongoingly.

We really want to help you, Claudia.

Hugs to you,

Elizabeth

PS. Regarding raw food, I suggest you try Moses with tiny bits of raw meat to see if he will actually eat that. If he does eat the little bits of raw meat then maybe it's possible to look at feeding raw meat as a larger part of his diet. If it looks like being a possibility, we can help you learn how to do that.

 

Claudia,

It is possible to buy insulin online with a prescription from your vet. The vet can charge for a prescription (up to £15 I think) but even including the prescription cost it could save you quite a bit of money. I just looked online at Medicanimal. Their price for a 10ml bottle of Caninsulin is currently £13.49. So with the prescription charge that would be £28.49. And if I remember correctly the Caninsulin lasts a lot longer than a month. I'm sure my bottles lasted well over 2 months if stored properly in the fridge. And if you are hometesting you will know if the insulin is losing potency.

Yes, there is the cost of syringes too, but these can also be bought online.

I'm pretty sure this can be done for less than £40 month!

The link to Medicanimal is here:
http://www.medicanimal.com/product/...B8F9D653823944FA3E35AC846502C8E.jvm1#pp_tabs3

Edited to add: Just did a quick calculation and the cost of 2 boxes of 30 syringes and half a bottle of Caninsulin could come to around £31 per month.

 

This is really frustrating. I called the Vet twice today to try to get him to call again and let me know whether or not they are willing to do a payment plan. Then the last time I called, the receptionist said he was going to be on holiday for a few days but that she would send him a reminder to call.

Then I had it all planned to get up tomorrow morning to get my friend to help me to give Moses the 3 blood tests before and after he eats... but then I remembered at 9:00 he is going to Church and will be gone all day till 4:00. So that will have to wait till Sunday.

I went to the Caninsulin VetPen site today and watched a video on how to use the Vet Pen.

I have £69 right now and Tuesday I will have £105 more. If I were to dip into my bank overdrat I'd have a total of £269 --The vet had said something about the whole thing costing £300 or something like that. If I could just get them to let me pay most of it and let me finish paying later, I could do this.

I read some stuff today online and it made me renew my resolve to go ahead and do this.

 

Claudia,

If you already have some insulin that Juilet sent you then you really are already set up to at least start treating Moses, and we can all help you, then you will be better armed the next time you talk to your vet, you will have test numbers, you will have even more numbers on how he does on insulin and there is even a chance that before the insulin you got from Juliet runs out dear sweet Moses may actually be OTJ (off the juice). If not you will have the proof of his spreadsheet here that will prove he needs it and at what dose.

When I first adopted Autumn she wasn't on insulin but I had insulin here from my other diabetic kitty, so I just followed the protocol here and started her on a low dose, raised as I needed to based on her numbers and I'm now reducing based on her numbers. No one since I adopted Autumn has run any tests on her until very recently and then it wasn't for her diabetes it was to check her out before she went in to have a dental done, she has never had a vet run curve, or anything else at the vet's for her diabetes. Even when I took her in for her dental this last wednesday I just told them she was a diabetic and this is the insulin she is on and this is her dose, just in case we got snowed in and I couldn't get back to her before she needed to have her insulin again.

But what I also can tell you about Autumn and not treating a diabetic is that it is a horrible way from them to live and eventually die. Autumn is very lucky that she is one tough cookie and survived as long as she did without being treated. She was a very sick little girl when she first came into my home and I very honestly sat on my bathroom floor and cried like a baby because I wasn't sure I could turn her around. She was severely dehydrated, but the folks here taught me over the internet how to give her sub-q fluids, they had taught me again how to test and check for ketones with my other diabetics so at least I had that down before getting her. She could barely walk from the mats and neropathy that she had, and she was a ghost of her now glorious self.

And you know what? I took her on with already having 1 other diabetic, and 12 non-diabetics plus a large dog and a single income from my husband that is dependent on weather since he is a commercial roofer...I know what it is like to live on a shoe string and try to care for animals you love. This can be done, you would do it if Moses was a human child and not think twice right? Or at least give it a go. So let us try to help you do it for Moses. If something happens and funds get to tight and you have to stop his insulin then he isn't going to be any worse off than he is right now. But I know how much you love him, it comes through in your words in every post you write. And at least if you give it a go you aren't going to be wondering the what if I had just tried to treat him. And the sooner we find out what his numbers are now that all the dry food is gone the better chance we have to know if he needs insulin at all. And if he does you have enough to start him on, and the sooner he is started on it the better the chance he won't need it forever. But the longer he goes without it, the more damage that is being done to him on the inside, the more organ damage he is going to have and the greater the chance that he will have to be on it long term.

Please let us help you help Moses.
Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Okay so, if I am going along and he is on insulin and something happens where I have no money coming to me at all, he isnt going to go into some diabetic shock or something? That is what I am worried about. Because I cant work because of my back, and my friend I am staying with just got off of Employment Support Allowance, and is now on Job Seeker's Allowance, and then he just went and found out his blood sugar is in the 20.0 range and he is already on insulin.

It isnt that I am not willing to spend the money on Moses, its that I am not sure what would happen if he gets on insulin then I suddenly cant get it any longer. If you know what I mean?

But you are saying that all that would happen is that he would go back to the way that he is now, right?

 

Because what kind of gave me a renewed hope about this today was when I was watching that Caninsulin VetPen video and they said if you mess it up with an injection, do not go giving them another inject, just wait until the next scheduled injection.

So that made me think wow! that must mean that it isnt dangerous to miss injections.

 

Yep he will just go back to being how he is now, right now he isn't getting insulin or at least enough insulin. First off you need to understand what insulin is, it isn't a drug in the way say heart meds are or even aspirin, it is a hormone that normally in a non-diabetic animal (humans, cats, dogs, horses, ferrets, rabbits etc) their bodies produce to help them use the food they are eating. The pancreas makes insulin in response to the food being eaten so that when the body breaks down the food into glucose the cells of the body can pick up that glucose out of the blood stream and turn it into energy to supply the body with nutrients.

With a diabetic, something happens where the pancreas stops making enough insulin to keep up with the glucose being produced with the breakdown of the food eaten, so we have to make up that shortage with extra injectable insulin. I don't know if you remember the old toy called Tinker Toys, but if you do, there use to be little round wooden disks with holes in them and then various size rods that you used to connect those round pieces together, well insulin is like those rods, and the round pieces are like the glucose cells and the rest of the cells of the body. Without those rods you could put those round pieces next to each other all day long and they aren't going to stick together, but add those rods and you could build really big towers and stuff. Same thing with insulin, it is what unlocks the cells of the body so that it can pick up the glucose and keep it from just floating along in the blood stream until the kidneys filter it out and it leaves the body when the cat pees.

Moses is in far more danger of becoming seriously ill from not even being started on insulin if he needs it than he is if for some reason you have to stop and start again later. At least while he is on it..IF he needs it, his pancreas is going to get to take a little mini vacation where it can sit back and not have to work very hard if at all and gets a chance to rest and heal again so that perhaps when it is all rested and refreshed again it can go back to doing its job correctly without the extra help from the shots.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

okay, thank you then. All I need to do then now is wait for the Vet to call me and see if he would allow me to do a payment plan.

 

Claudia,
I think you have missed the point of what MommaofMuse is saying.
You don't need to speak to the vet to be able to start treating Moses.
You have everything there you need, to be able to treat him, and to be able to start now. You have a meter, lancet & testing strip from your friend, you have needles, insulin & a vetpen. You have low carb food for him.
Go ahead & do the tests on him. Test him before he eats & 2 hours after. The rest of us can guide you through the next steps & all it will cost you is a bit of emotional investment in getting used to the testing/injections.
You can do this.
You can do this without a vet, too. We are here to help.

Juliet

xx

 

Juliet, are you saying that I could be able to actually start giving Moses the insulin? without having to go to the Vet first?

 

Also, if I COULD do these tests on Moses and also be able to start giving him the insulin.... doesn't the Vet have to do all the initial tests with Moses NOT being on insulin first? or does it not make any difference if he is already on insulin? Would I just need to inform the vet he is already on insulin?

I really need to understand because I would LOVE to be able to start Moses on insulin.

 

Or are you saying that I could be able to just bypass the whole Vet tests thing altogether?

I would be thrilled if I could do that.

 

Yes, you can start him on the insulin without seeing the vet.
BUT, you have to get the testing side sorted first.
Once you have an idea of Moses's blood glucose levels, then we can help you with the dosing.
Just get the testing done, let us know what his glucose levels are & we can go from there.

 

If you are hometesting Moses yourself, he doesn't need to see the vet to have his blood tests done.
Hometesting means that you can be in control of how much insulin he gets & when. The vet doesn't have to do this for you (you can't afford it anyway).

Just start the hometesting, and post up Moses's glucose scores here. We can then figure out if he needs insulin or not. If he does, then we can help you give it to him safely.

J
xx

 

Oh my gosh!

Okay so what you want me to do first is this:

Tomorrow morning, before Moses eats breakfast, test his blood sugar levels.

Then test it again an hour later.

Then test it again 3 hours after that. Is that correct?

Also, it is ok if I leave out a bowl of Liquivite for him, for if he gets thirsty? I try to always do that, because I worry about him getting dehydrated, it is sort of like a chicken soup for cats. Plus sometimes if I get up in the middle of the night I give him a small can of food.

Should I not give him the small can of food in the middle of the night? I didnt get up last night to do that, so he should be alright with that. But can I still leave the Liquivite for him to drink?

 

Also one last question too... my friend here, who is a diabetic himself, has one of those VetPens for humans I guess you could call it, and he gives himself injections with it.

If he knows how to use that, is it just the same way with the VetPen? Like would he be able to explain to me how to use the VetPen?

Also when I was watching that Caninsulin VetPen video, or maybe it was another video on insulin injections, I watched two of them yesterday... it was saying that you are okay as long as the insulin hasnt changed colors. But how do I know what the color was to start with? If you know what I mean? I mean, since I have the insulin that you sent to me, Juliet? Or would my friend know if it was the right color?

 

Just to let you know, my friend here is the one who can help me do the blood tests on Moses. Because I have to lie him on his back on my lap and my friend does the needle and all of that with the monitor. Moses can be a handfull.

But he is always gone all day on Saturday.

On Sunday, he usually leaves around 2 or 3:00 to go eat dinner at his parents house and is gone the rest of the day. So I might still be able to do the tests starting tomorrow if all I have to do initially the first day is test Moses before he eats, then an hour after he eats then 3 hours later. I would be able to do that tomorrow if that's the case.

All the rest of the week, my friend is usually home 24/7 though, so that will be helpful.

I just let Moses know that I might be able to help him sooner than I thought. But that at first, he wont like it LOL!

 

JUST TO CLARIFY

Someone told me the other day to test Moses before he eats, then one hour after he eats and then 3 hours later.

But you are saying to test him before he eats then 2 hours later.

So can you please tell me which one I should do? I just dont wanna have to end up doing it over again

By the way, I just talked my friend into doing this testing with me tomorrow.

 

Yes!

I would switch the Liquivite for water tonight, if you are going to test him tomorrow. Give him a midnight snack if he's hungry, and then test him before his breakfast the next morning.

You really need to learn to test him by yourself, Claudia. You need to be independent with this. Are you still pricking his paw pads or using his ears?

Yes, your friend can help you with the VetPen. You have the instruction manual too. There are plenty videos about injecting cats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XeZgKLfIJn4

But....we don't know if he needs insulin yet. You'll only find out when you've done these tests.

You go girl!

 

Okay thank you! Actually I was just thinking of that, that I need to learn how to manage to do this testing thing on my own. I was mentally thinking of sticking Moses on my lap and then doing his Back Paw myself, or at least trying to.

I am doing it on his back paw, because of his ear polyps. He goes nuts if I mess with his ears.

 

Thats the exact same video I watched yesterday about injecting cats!

That one, and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpUuxBepRKQ

I am pretty sure though that my Cat Moses would not just sit there and let me do that to him. He tries to run away as soon as I put him on the table.

 

Give it a go today? Have a lil practice?

EDIT: Yep, that's not a real cat. I think it's a robot! :lol:

 

I think what I am going to do is, tomorrow, I will get my friend to do the first test while I hold Moses in my lap, the test before he eats.

Then the second test, after he eats, I will have my friend there with me, and try doing it all on my own, so that he can make sure I do the monitor thing correctly. Then if I am able to do this, I wont need him to help me with it any longer.

With the injection of the insulin thing, I wish I could do it like the guy on that second video, where he gives the cat an injection while he is eating LOL! I could put Moses on the table and put his food bowl there and while he is eating just pretend Im massaging his neck or his back.

 

Or maybe tonight. I will get my friend to stay there with me and I will try doing a blood test on my own. Then if I am able to do the whole thing, I can do it all tomorrow myself. Because I cant really rely on him to get up early in the morning. So doing it myself would be a good idea.

 

Morning, Claudia,

I've been having a bit of a think about this and am going to suggest a plan. The plan I'm suggesting is broken down into 'short term' and 'medium term' goals.

SHORT TERM:
1. Get Moses onto low carb wet/canned diet.
2. Become comfortable with testing Moses' blood glucose on your own.

MEDIUM TERM:
If, after the above, it transpires that Moses' blood glucose is in diabetic numbers then start him on insulin ASAP.

Okay, here's a little more detail about those goals:

SHORT TERM:
1. If Moses is going to have any chance of becoming diet-controlled he needs to be eating a low carb diet.
You've removed the dry food, that's brilliant! But in order to pare those BG levels down even further it would be wise for you to remove the Whiskas 'simply grilled' pouches. As I said in a previous post they are a little high in carbs for a diabetic cat (around 10.4% of calories). A diabetic cat needs foods that are less than 10% calories from carbs, and the lower the better.

2. Moses needs you to learn to test his blood glucose by yourself.
Most cats can be tested. And this need not stress or hurt Moses at all. I know you've only tried paw-testing so far, and that Moses isn't keen on having his ears touched at the moment. If you and he are comfortable with paw-testing, that's fine. If you can't manage that on your own then you may want to try ear-testing again. You can get Moses accustomed to having his ears touched by incorporating handling his ears during a grooming session, and/or, touching his ears and then giving him a little treat (perhaps a piece of meat).

There is a good new testing video in the first post of the link below. And you will see that this cat is not stressed at all by the process. Courtney has a really relaxed approach to the testing; and because she is relaxed Kismet is relaxed too:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=89063

It is only after putting Moses on a low carb diet and then testing his blood glucose that we will be able to determine if Moses needs insulin. And if he does need insulin then he must get that ASAP or else his health will deteriorate.

 

Okay, I was just sitting here thinking about this though and wondering about something...

If the whole point is to have the cat go a certain amount of hours without eating and just having the water there, then doing the test before and after he eats...

then is there any reason why today I couldnt just wait till about 2:00 this afternoon, and just stop giving him any food and just have his water there... then in about 5 hours from then at 7:00 test him before eating, then give him some food and test him again afterwards?

I mean TONIGHT?

 

Then tonight I could also see if I can figure out how to do this on my own, too.

 

Elizabeth & Bertie speaks wise words (as always!).

Please take away the higher carb food, Claudia? I didn't realise he was still eating it. His blood glucose may well drop further.

But yes, you can start testing immediately. The more information you have about the way Moses deals with his food, the better.

 

Okay, I know I am being a pain, but one more question.

How much time from when he eats this afternoon must I wait for the first test, the test I give him when he hasnt had any food for awhile?

Like, let's say I STOP giving him food this afternoon at 1:00. What time can I do the test? How long does he have to go without food, I mean?

 

You can do the test at anytime this afternoon, Claudia. Just do it, get used to it, then we can think about getting some baseline data for him.

 

Yes, please listen to Juliet, Claudia.

At this stage the timing of the test isn't critical. You just need to learn to test so any opportunities you get will be just fine.

Think of 'test time' as an opportunity to spend some quality time with Moses. Give him lots of attention and affection, speak softly, touch his ear, reassure him, and have a go at getting some blood from that ear. But in a soft, gentle way.

It's not so important when you do it at this stage: But it is vitally important that you actually do it.

Moses really needs you to learn to do this...

 

Well I had stopped giving Moses any food at 12:30 and waited for my friend to get home, but he didnt get home till 6:00 and so I just went ahead before then and gave Moses some food because I knew there wouldnt be enough time for the whole testing thing and hour later and 3 hours after that.

BUT he is getting up at 7:00 and set his alarm for that. And I wont put out any food for Moses tonight so we can start the tests in the morning.

Also I did spend the whole afternoon learning how to load and use this Accu-Chek Multiclix and the Monitor and test strips. I didnt actually use it on Moses yet because I am waiting till tomorrow. But I watched 3 videos on it and when my friend came home I had him run through the whole process of it with me. How to load the cartridge, how to set the needle depth, how to push the thing down to get the needle ready, how to put the needle end on Moses and to press down and click it to draw blood, how to click it over to bring it to the next clean needle. Then how to stick the test strip in the monitor, how to scoop the blood up onto it and wait for the reading, then throw it away. And of course writing down all the results, time and date on a piece of paper. I learned a whole lot from watching different videos. It turns out that one of the videos was a lady who had gotten her cat into remission from being on your forum and following your advise

So anyway I did the best I could. Will have to wait until morning now. I will try and do one of the tests myself tomorrow on Moses. And I will post the results for you.

 

Well done, Claudia,

You've done some great preparation there. :smile:

Fingers crossed for tomorrow! \M/

 

You've had a busy day!!! Congrats on going over the basics of how all the equipment works! That's great now tomorrow morning when you go to do your first test on Moses you will be so much more at ease and confident, because you aren't going to be fumbling around trying to figure out how all the parts work. :thumbup And that will make it easier on Moses too because he will pick up you confidence. cat_pet_icon

I'll be watching for that first number tomorrow.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Good luck Claudia! You can (and will) do it! Just remember to take your time, relax, and give both Moses and yourself a little treat afterwards.
Can I suggest that now's the time to start a new thread - this one is very long and other people with useful input may be missing updates from you...

Diana

 

I agree with Diana.
Maybe start a new thread now, Claudia, to mark the beginning of a new chapter: You starting to take control of Moses' diabetes! Yay! :smile:

 

Claudia, how are you getting on?

If you haven't managed a successful test, don't worry. You can always try again tomorrow. :smile:

Eliz

 

Elizabeth,

I got totally discouraged todaym so I didnt want to post anything that might discourage anyone else.

Starting with the first blood test before Moses ate. It came out to 19.1

Honestly I cannot understand that because I am not feeding him any different than when it was at 12.2

Then, it took 5 tries to even do the blood test. We finally figured out its because there isnt any carpeting, and his feet were cold. I remember on that video about doing it on the ears, that they wanted you to warm the ear up to get the blood flowing.

Anyway after that at 7:00 in the morning, I just didnt have the heart to do any more.

I cant believe it though, its the funniest thing. Ive got Moses lying on his back in my lap and I tell him "Now dont look, Moses" and he actually turns his head to the side. Like he knows not to look.

Anyway Im just totally discouraged right now.

 

Claudia, you managed to get a test so that is a success!

OK, the blood glucose reading isn't as low as we hoped it might be. But it's not the end of the world. You've still managed to get some important data.

The first time I tested my cat's blood glucose it was 21.6. And he was on insulin at the time. I was absolutely devastated! I remember crying about it. But then I decided that - for my cat's sake - I just had to keep on trying and keep on hoping that things would turn out better. And they did!

What did you feed Moses today? Just wondering if the food affected his blood glucose levels...

 

Why are you so discouraged, Claudia? Is it the BG number?

Have a look at Milo's spreadsheet (link in my sig) and you'll see far, far worse. All this number means is that Moses is diabetic and he needs his Mom's help. It's easy to bring that number down for him.

Make sure all his food is low carb and test him again. Try and do one on your own. You've been successful twice with help, so have another go tonight or tomorrow.

Is Moses OK? Has he forgiven you? Did you give him treats?

 

Claudia, I totally understand what it's like to feel discouraged. I had a really hard time with all this too. It takes strength to pick yourself up and find the energy to tackle this when it seems such a mountain to climb - but try to take heart from the fact that pretty well everyone on this board gets there in the end - with the testing I mean - so you will too.

Can I suggest once more that you start a new thread with a different header, as other people will see it and want to add their support. At the moment, it's mainly those of us in the UK who are responding but there's an army of others out there!

Diana

 

Ditto to that....

Claudia , your thread's title is 'What to feed my cat in the UK'. That is limiting the number of people who will respond to your posts. I really do think you need to start a new thread and get support from more than just us UK folks! Maybe start a thread with something like 'Claudia and Moses - testing help needed', or, 'Claudia and Moses, feeling discouraged', or whatever you feel seems to sum up your situation as it is now...?

Chin up, sweetie! Everyone here knows that this feline diabetes stuff isn't easy at first. But it does get better. Honestly!

 

Claudia you already have a step up on me when I started testing both Maxwell and Autumn and you know what that is?

Moses already LOVES you. He already trusts you as his momma to help him feel better, so if you are acting a little different towards him or asking him to do things you haven't before like getting his ear or foot poked thats just a okay with him because he has only known you as someone who loves him and won't do anything in this world to hurt him...Maxwell and Autumn didn't know that about me in the beginning, they had never even seen me before. But I talked to them softly, I sang to them, and cuddled them, I explained exactly why I had to do this to them and that even if their last people didn't want them and didn't want to bother to make them feel good again, that I would go to the ends of the Earth for them.

Its a tough thing to learn to get the home testing down, most of us didn't get blood the first time, or even the second or third time...When I knew I was going to be adopting Maxwell, I practiced for 2 weeks on my laid back blue point siamese kitty, and it took me that full two weeks to get where I could get blood everytime, but I knew I had to learn. I had to do it for the sweet guy that was flying his way into my heart and home in a couple of weeks, and it was my responsiblity as his new mom to keep him safe, and the only way I could do that was to learn how this whole thing worked.

If its the reading..its one number and it just means he's a diabetic, but you already knew that he was, we were just hoping that he was going to be one of the lucky ones that could do it with just diet...so he can't right now, doesn't mean he never will, just means he needs mom to help him a little bit by learning to test him and give him insulin. Unlike your friend, Moses can't fill his own syringe, or test his own blood, he needs mom for that.

Maxwell was 485 or 26.9 in your terms when he was first tested and that was after his diet was completely changed, but two weeks on insulin and he was OTJ and diet controlled. All that one numbers tells you is Yes, Moses needs insulin to get well...and you have that from Juilet, you have the use of a meter and test strips, you have everything including a cheering section and experienced caregivers of diabetic cats around the world to hold your hand, to tell you what the numbers mean, how to know when it is time to change the dose, everything you could possibly need to help you help Moses is right at your finger tips.

In the beginning it is scary, and frustrating, but slowly it gets easier, until one day you watch Moses acting like a kitten again, happy and healthy and realize you two did it together. But we call this a dance for a reason...Just like learning any new dance, you feel like you have two left feet, you trip, you step on the hem of your gown, you forget steps or the order they go in, but if you keep at it, you keep going through the steps pretty soon you realize that when the music starts your body just automatically starts to do the dance, and one day you look up as you glide across the flow in perfect grace and realize the dance wasn't really that hard to learn afterall and that you can do it. And if you keep at it long enough pretty soon you are taking the hand of the next person that comes along and wants to learn the dance too. You start teaching them the steps as well.

That is what all of us are trying to do for you, we have danced this dance for a while now, we know the steps, we can teach them to you, but we can't make your feet move to the music. Only you can do that, and your dance partner is waiting on the dance floor, he has his paw extended and is just waiting for you to join him. So let us help you learn to dance with Moses. You've taken the first step, you have gotten your first reading that is like putting the needle on the record that is already on the stereo, now you have to take the next one and the next until all the steps become a beautiful flowing dance.

Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang

 

Moses is sooo handsome!