Wider swings with insulin than not

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by KKL, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. KKL

    KKL Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2013
    As I continue to give him a 0.2+/- unit of insulin I am seeing a higher swing in numbers than the 11 days I had him off of it. I am so hesitant to add a second dose since he's usually low 100's in the evening already. But now we are seeing low 100's until 3-5am then high 400's and even low 500's at 6-7 in the morning, with a 0.15-0.25 unit dose (all my syringes are off by a 0.05-0.1 unit) so super accurate dosing without a micrometer (on its way!) is near impossible.

    I passed forward my chart to my vet and she had me enhance it with exact feed times to see what we might try differently. She is not fond of numbers below 100 with him and doesn't mind numbers 250-300+/- as long as they are only for a few hours. He does drop (both with and without insulin) on his own once he eats his low carb wet food. I am hesitant to add a higher carb food since he shoots up pretty fast. Might he just be "carb sensitive"?
     
  2. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    What he may be doing is bouncing. This occurs for a number of reasons
    1) sudden drops in short time periods
    2) large total drops
    3) drops to unusual levels for him

    Some of those numbers suggest to me that you might try an off the juice trial.
    ie take him off the Lantus, feed a low carb diet spread out across the day, and just monitor. If he doesn't need insulin, he should stabilize in a couple of days as the Lantus works out of his system.

    If he is having sporadic function of his pancreas, it may work better to use a non-depot insulin such as Prozinc, which comes in a U-40 concentration and may be easily measured in 0.2 unit increments using a U-100 syringe with a conversion chart.
     
  3. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    I would tend to agree with this.

    This morning I got a reading of 596 with the Relion...I took another reading with my other meter (TrueResult) and it was 286. How can there possibly be over a 300 pt spread? :(

    When I was using the TrueResult meter without insulin he got great numbers, but I switched to the Relion and it had higher numbers so we put him back on a small dose of insulin and he started this scary roller coaster with numbers...from high 500's to below 70 in a few hours. Is it possibly just the meter? Do I have to switch to the AlphaTrak?? I'd rather pay more IF it will give me better readings...and thus save my cats health, insulin and false reading test strips :(
     
  4. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    True Result may not be when it comes to cats. I'd trust the ReliOn model over the True any day. You can always test yourself and see how it works on you.
     
  5. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    Hi. In my experience, the TrueResult is nothing "true" in the higher-number range. Many other members have found this out as well. When Gobbles was first diagnosed, I was using the TrueResult. If you look at his SS, you'll see that he was diagnosed 11/17/12. Up until 1/8/2013 his numbers looked pretty good. When I switched to a ReliOn meter, well, his numbers started looking higher (and they were!!!) I had my vet test his AlphaTrak against both the TrueResult and the ReliOn: (1/7/13) TrueResult read 343 and AlphaTrak read 419 and then (1/ReliOn read 203 and AlphaTrak 234. My advice and opinion: Use the ReliOn exclusively and keep the TrueResult as a backup. Also, at lower numbers, it seems the TrueResult is more accurate (when ReliOn was about 125) and much more accurate at very low numbers (40-100 range). I can't name dates specifically without going over Gobbles entire SS, but I remember a few times when Gobbles was in the 50-70 range, I tested the same drop of blood between each meter and there was about a 5-10 point difference. You'll also see by looking at Gobbles SS that he went OTJ on 5/17/13; 6 months after his diagnosis. I contribute this to the fact that we started following the Protocol for the Lantus Tight Regulation on 1/5/13. I hope this helps you out. I would certainly NOT spring for the AlphaTrak: too expensive and the cost of strips is astronomical! Most members here use a human glucometer (probably ReliOn being used more than any other meter).
     
  6. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    Also, with regard to the cost of meters, here is something another member put together:



    Cost of test strips and the meter are big factors. For example:

    Relion Confirm meter $14-17.
    1. Test strips, box of 50 $19.98, box of 100 $36.
    2.Only available at Walmart but online and at a store. Interchangeble test strips with Relion Mini and Arkray Glucocard 01. Arkray glucocard 01 test strips available on-line at ADW, our shopping partner for a good price. Use the link at the top of the screen and the board gets a little money to keep it going.

    Alphatrak test meter $120-200.
    2.Test strips, box of 50, $49.99 to $100. Box of 100, $97.98 to ??? Alphatrak test strips from your vet may have a large markup. I've heard from one member her vet office prices are high, a vial of Alphatrak test strips is $100 for 50, $2 each. At 4 tests a day, that is $8. Alpahtrak test strips from ADW are about $0.96 each in bulk.


    ReliOn makes a few different models. I use (I still test Gobbles, even though he's not receiving any insulin now) the ReliOn Ultima model and the strips are only $49/250 strips if ordered from ADW.
     
  7. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    One other thing: stick to one meter....IMHO, I'd use the ReliOn...
     
  8. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Just to clarify, it's the ReliOn that has yielded significantly higher and lower numbers for me than the TrueResult.

    This morning:
    ReliOn: 596
    TrueResult: 286

    The second part of my chart was using only the ReliOn, the first part was using the TrueResult. I am skeptical as to the 400-500+ readings I am getting with the ReliOn. I had ordered their control solution, it hasn't come yet.
     
  9. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    IMHO, the ReliOn is the number I'd go with especially since you've had to skip shots--thus higher numbers due to lack of insulin. And with the fact that there is a 20% variance on all meters, the ReliOn number COULD be much lower, or higher. If you take into consideration of Gobbles' SS numbers with the ReliOn vs. the TrueResult, you'll see it is similar to yours. Those red and black numbers are probably big bounces. On which days which meters were used? I suspect that on the most, if not all, days with all the green and blues, you were recording the TrueResult readings? If if makes you feel any better, Gobbles bounced and ran some high numbers for many months before he went OTJ....but I stuck to the Protocol. When cats run high, there is little you can do....
     
  10. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    I'm just a little confused here: do you mean that from 6/22 to present, you are using the ReliOn exclusively and all those numbers are from the ReliOn only?
     
  11. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Yes :(
    I first started with the TrueResult from 6/6 through morning of 6/22. Then starting +10 on 6/22 forward is the ReliOn meter. I seem to be having the opposite luck with the Relion vs the TrueResult meters. The ReliOn is showing swings of 300-400 pts in just a few hours...which both my vet and I are very skeptical of. When I double check with the TrueResult the results are significantly less..such as this morning, by 310pts. I find it very hard to believe that it's accurate when with only 0.2+/- unit of insulin he was at 67 at dinner yesterday and 596 at breakfast today :(
     
  12. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Also to clarify the higher numbers were with Insulin, the lower were when skipping shots. We've only done 1x day due to the super low dose and that 2x day was too much for him.

    On the TrueResult meter it appeared he did not need insulin. We only resumed when the ReliOn meter showed high numbers. I am wondering if my ReliOn meter is off.

    Now:
    TrueResult 158
    Relion: 402
     
  13. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    I'm so sorry that you're having a disheartening time with all of this. Meters, by I believe the FDA, can be 20% higher or lower. So even your 286 TrueResult reading could be 343 on the high end, and the ReliOn could be 483. With Lantus, doses are given every 12 hours, around the clock UNLESS you get a reading of 200 or less; then we strongly advise you to NOT give the shot and please post on this forum for help. A cat can easily swing 300-400 points in a few hours; a few times Gobbles swung from blue numbers to black numbers in a few hours (once in just one hour). Please understand that your cat is very "newly diagnosed"; a cat is considered "newly diagnosed" in their first six months of diagnosis. As I stated, those high numbers are Harley bouncing off low numbers, especially when a shot is missed--though sometimes, especially with numbers 200 and under, a shot should be held until an Advisor here helps you...shots sometimes have to be given late, reduced or skipped.

    A suggestion: Just for the heck of it, and to make you more aware of the problems with the TrueResult, you may want to post some sort of new posting about the TrueResult accuracy. Explain your situation a little, even copy & paste from your posts, and get some opinions on that meter. Also mention the inaccuracies with the ReliOn. I am sure you will get a lot of the same information that I'm giving you about the TrueResult. I see BJM had commented on this post and also mentioned the inaccuracy of the TrueResult. My vet even agrees and he does have a good knowledge of feline diabetes....

    I bet you are really sad about Harley being in high numbers? Maybe still in shock and perhaps some denial of him being diabetic? Sweetie, I use to cry, cry, cry about it, but I received such an outpouring of care, comfort, support, education and advice from the members here, that I hung in there. The best advice I've ever been given? Patience :D

    Another factor (and I'm sorry as you have probably answered this question but I've not read your other posts): What are you feeding Harley? How often? Food can play a huge factor in diabetic cats. Health issues can also play a huge factor.

    We want to give Harley the best care possible and start the road to recovery, and to hold your hand through the diabetic journey. And to educate and support you.

    I hope I've not overstepped my bounds here. I'm concerned about you and Harley; I've been there and done that. And remission is very, very possible because Harley's been prescribed an excellent insulin and you've come here for help.

    OT: With regard to vets: Say I go to my primary care doctor, he sends me for a stress test, and the results are not good--my primary doctor wouldn't treat me because he is not a cardiac specialist; he would refer me to a specialist. And I would want to go to a specialist because I know my doctor surely is not a cardiac specialist. In that scenario, your vet is the "primary doctor", has done a blood panel and finds out that your cat has feline diabetes. Most vets don't treat feline diabetes exclusively unless your vet they are strictly feline diabetes specialists who knows the disease in and out and is up to date on the treatment of feline diabetes. While we aren't experts, the combined knowledge and experience of our members is staggering. Once I got a grip on that, well, Gobbles was on the road to recovery. And his vet did has some knowledge of diabetes, but very few patients with diabetes.
     
  14. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    I'm not a super-experienced member and don't feel confident giving a good answer to you regarding your readings with regarding to dosing..skipping shots, 1x day.... Would you mind if I contact a Lantus Advisor to read through this post and take a good look at Harley's SS? I'm sure an Advisor can help shortly...
     
  15. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    I certainly do not mind you posting to an advisor.

    Just to give a background, the vet I am working with is not my "routine visit vet" but the specialist vet that I deal with when things go more awry. She has always been very knowledgeable and honest while helping to keep things as manageable as possible. We have a good working history together and she deals with a lot of diabetics.

    Not denial, he went in with a 427 blood sugar and had symptoms-loss of weight, peeing a lot and some hind end weakness-he definitely is diabetic...just to what degree I am not sure. Unforunately, we thought the peeing was our other hyperthyroid cat that we had changed his medication and that Harley's hip arthritis was flared up with the weakness...we didn't realize all the pieces right away until he started losing a lot of weight fast and looking "off".

    I am just more concerned that this Relion meter shows higher highs and lower lows than the TrueResult meter. He seemed more "stable" when he wasn't on insulin and/or when we were using the other meter. We never saw 400-500 readings while both on or off insulin. Which begs the question, is the it the meter or the cat. Unfortunately he doesn't travel well and it's a 20+/- minute stressful ride into the vet to get his BG levels tested there. But I might have to do that with both meters to get an idea of which is closer to what their results are.

    He is usually only at "dosing range" once in the day, typically in the morning. At any other point he is usually well under 200. She advised me unless he's at 250 or above not to give him insulin because even 0.10 or 0.20 unit shoots him very very low very fast. He does get a low carb wet food 2x day with a spoonful of it as a snack 2x day. Due to his prior health history I am hesitant to add any other food or change things around too much.
     
  16. TheBowHuntress

    TheBowHuntress Well-Known Member

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    Nov 22, 2012
    Hi :)

    I've posted over in Lantus for a more experienced members to help. I am literally walking out the door as I type this.

    Someone will be here shortly:

    I'll check back in a little later.
     
  17. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Use the ReliOn Prime, not the True Result meter. The True flattens the swings FOR CATS and isn't showing you anything accurate.

    As mentioned, the FDA allows meters to be sold in the US that are within 20% of what a lab test would get. This means that
    test -> range where actual value falls
    50 --> 40 - 60
    100 --> 80 - 120
    etc
    Here's a graph
    Notice how that range gets wider the higher the numbers go? It just means that high is high and the actual number really doesn't matter, you need to take corrective action. So don't get stuck on "numbers" per se.

    My signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools provides tips on testing urine ketones and more. Those indicators may support your glucometer results - increased drinking and urination, increased eating, and behavior.
     
  18. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Part of the problem is we have 3 cats and 3 litter boxes. One cat is hyperthyroid (on meds). All three drink well, two pee a lot. Who is who, I cannot tell :( They are all discreet pee cats.

    But Harley is acting like Harley. Grooming, eating, etc.
     
  19. Maggies Mom Debby

    Maggies Mom Debby Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    You could test your meters by taking them to the next vet appointment and test them against the vet's test.
     
  20. KKL

    KKL Member

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    That's what we will have to do, I feel horrible since it's sheer torture for the guy he damn near has a panic attack and pants with his mouth open the whole way there, especially if I have to do it alone and stuff him in a crate to make the trip. But at least I will know which one gives me more accurate readings.
     
  21. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    I like the idea of calibrating both meters against the vets although i must say I had a meter that did the same as the true result and kept giving me wonky numbers too.

    I do think these high blacks are a result of you skipping the PM shot .... and now that you are giving 0.2IU in the morning and not the night you are messing up the insulin depot and making the issues worse. We look at tons of SS every day and are fairly confident its the lack of shot and not the meter. BUT Every Cat Is Different and we can easily be wrong this time. There could be something else going on or unusual.

    So... how about you humour us for a day or two and give the PM shot too and see what happens? But only 0.1IU. It will give us a ton of information either way. If we are right then great! If we are wrong then we look to other issues that might be causing a morning spike

    ? Deal?

    Wendy
     
  22. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Sounds good by me...I have been practicing with red fluid and used syringes to perfect the "depress the plunger for one drop" method.

    I'll try doing that and see where we go. We only never did the evening because he was always in the 100's. Right now he's at 127.

    Funny my wonkier numbers came with the Relion, but is that because the TrueResult was off...only one way to know. I can tell you they are both spot on when he is in range, with both human, sugar cat and civie cat blood. But once you go south of 80 or north of 200 all bets are off and I've gotten some wild numbers.

    I'll just keep a close eye on him. He's acting just fine, he actually jumped up on the bed the last two mornings, the last few weeks he would use the night stand to come and go (our bed is very high). I put some "steps" on the other side because I was so worried he'd not make it and spill on the hardwood...so I also put padding down...yep I am that overprotective :)
     
  23. Blue

    Blue Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    The TRU2GO and TrueResult and also the Freestyle with butterfly strips are all no good.
    The Relion meters are all just fine and trustworthy for numbers.

    Gayle
     
  24. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    You havent shot under 200 before right? how is your supply of

    1. strips and lancets?
    2. Got syrup and/or HC food in the house with gravy?

    Are you able to get some night tests in? If not , then save this for a night when you can.

    Wendy
     
  25. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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  26. KKL

    KKL Member

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    I could do it now or in an hour (it's 6pm right now). I have lots of lancets, 50 strips, caro, gravy, 20 cans of wet food....I think I am prepared LOL

    He was at 120 an hour ago...should I still do the 1 drop aka 0.1 unit?? Seems so scary :)
     
  27. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Wait till normal shot time.

    Quick question though.. those readings today were with the relion right? And you didnt shoot this morning?

    Wendy
     
  28. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Sounds silly, but is there a particular regimen I should follow tonight,for the next 12-18 hours? Such as test PM, feed, insulin 0.1, then what times do I retest? Do I give wet food "snacks"? If so, what time?
     
  29. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Yes, unless specified TR those are Relion readings.

    I usually feed him about 7PM EST. I haven't given any insulin since yesterday morning and it was roughly 0.2+/- unit
     
  30. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Crap, I just got a new order so I will be on the road tomorrow morning/afternoon. Should I still shoot tonight the 0.1 unit and hold tomorrow morning depending on his numbers???
     
  31. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Ay "fun" will be over by 1am.. can you stay up that long?

    If so, at 7pm, test him. If over 200 go ahead and give him 0.1IU and feed as normal. Get a test in 2 hours and let me know.

    If under 200 - dont shoot or feed and come back here. Take another test in 30. Based on that we will see if we are going to shoot or not. We will go from there.

    Wendy
     
  32. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Okay I will test at 7 and report back....thank you!! :)
     
  33. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    ok cool. I will be here.
     
  34. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Ok I usually test by 6:45 so I can feed the herd by 7...

    He is at 150 with the Relion...
    and he is wondering where the #$% his dinner is "Ok Mom, I got poked now where is my meal?" He's galloping up and down the hallway and digging crinkly things out from the trash :)
     
  35. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Ok looks like he is on the way up but lets stall 30 minutes to be sure. So wait 30 mins.. no food and no shoot... retest in 30 and let me know

    Wendy
     
  36. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Ok, VERY interesting, he's now at 182....which normally by now I have fed him and he's on his way down...but he's gone up, which I find interesting...so now what?
     
  37. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Now you shoot. Give him the 0.1iu, and feed him dinner. Measure again in 2 hours and Please come back and let me know otherwise I will worry. That +2 will tell us what his plans are for the night.

    See you in two hours.

    Wendy
     
  38. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Shoot before or after he eats...usually I do after, but the way you worded it I just wanted to make sure :)
     
  39. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Whatever works for you... I usually shoot mine while they eat ;)
     
  40. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Ok, at 7:45 I fed him and at 7:50 I gave him 0.10 unit (by doing the 'depress the plunger' trick)

    So test him again at 10:00?
     
  41. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good! I will "see" you then..

    FYI if the number is higher we are good, if its the same or lower we will need more testing to keep an eye on him as it implies an active cycle..
     
  42. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Alrighty, sounds like a plan!!! Thank you so much for your help!!! :)
     
  43. KKL

    KKL Member

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    OK I fear the pull the plunger might be too small of a drop, but we shall see. He is at 215, which is higher than normal at this time of night...with or without insulin, interesting huh. Let me know what to do next...I can test in another hour or two....
     
  44. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    He missed two doses so his depot is probably empty and he is using this dose to fill it. Plus he was already on his way up when you shot and of course there may be an impact of food.

    Maybe get a +4? I will check on you again then so let me know.

    We want to keep doing this dose for a few days unless he drops under 50. 3 days gives the dose a chance to settle..

    Tomorrow morning, I won't be around at 7am so same plan as tonite

    1. Test, shoot 0.1 if over 150. Feed. Get another test in 2 hours.
    2. If under 150, don't shoot, don't feed, wait 30 minutes and retest. Meanwhile post on the tight regulation board for help. Shoot 0.1iu if goes over 150. Again test in 2 hours.

    Make sense?

    Wendy
     
  45. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    And remember to update the ss thanks!
     
  46. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Okay perfect, thank you!
    What do I do if I retest in the am and he's still not over 150? Of course I think he will be...but just incase?
     
  47. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    It depends. If he has dropped then you probably should skip. If its the same or gone up a little you could wait another 30minutes and retest again as long as it doesn't throw you too much off schedule... Since your next shot is 12 hours after that.

    The people on the tight regulation board will be able to help advise. They might have you shoot anyway (if over 100) and just steer the curve with higher carb food. They are pretty good and I will be around by 9am to check on you anyway.

    Wendy
     
  48. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Sounds good...thank you again! :)
     
  49. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Alright, he is at 245. I did give him a 1/2 oz of his wet food for his snack. This usually tends to bring it down some if it's higher. Though the drop is probably the smallest dose I've given him yet...I just hope I did it right. We'll have a better picture tomorrow.
     
  50. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good. Sleep well and let's hope you don't wake up to a black tomorrow morning.
     
  51. KKL

    KKL Member

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  52. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Agreed! :)
    If it is black we stick to the 1 drop, same as we did tonight, right?

    His urine output must've increased, he had litter on his toes tonight, he hates that...poor guy. Of to napland for the next 5 hours :)
     
  53. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Alright, interesting, he was at 187 at 6:00. I had to feed him, he started his usual mischief about 4:30 am...so he must be feeling good!

    I gave him his 1 drop of insulin...why don't these insulin mfg's make "drop pens"?? :)
     
  54. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Well ... they do, but they are glass lab barreled equipment, reusable, and require an autoclave to reuse. In other words, expensive, not easily available, and breakable.
     
  55. KKL

    KKL Member

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    I do have friends that work in the healthcare industry that have an autoclave? BUT I have nerve issues in my hands (neck issues) and I drop things, so glass is bad :(

    He's at 160 as of 8:15 am (+2)
     
  56. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Good morning! He is looking good today.

    I was thinking about you though last night and I wonder if you really are giving 0.1? Here are some pics.. But it doesn't matter as long as you are consistent .. We will see how the one drop goes!

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Also can you get a +4 or +5 today? Want to see how low he goes...

    They tend to pee more when over the renal threshold for any length of time (around 270) so the peeing is a result of yesterday's blacks and reds.
     
  57. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Morning!
    I am headed out onto the road today soon...I won't be home until probably late afternoon. But I can give you a +3 before I leave. I will also give him a "wet food snack" before I head out.

    I am not sure that it's even 0.1 unit either. Unfortunately the "0" line on all my syringes is off and that line yields a different amount with each one...GRR...so depressing the plunger has been the only thing giving me consistent amounts...it is a small drop, but seems to be doing something...whereas what I was giving him before was not very consistient...no matter how hard I tried to measure it the barrels and hubs are too different :(
     
  58. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    I have the same issue with bailey, and call it "one drop".. Sometimes it's enough!

    +3 is good and maybe a test when you get home if its more than two hours before PMPS. Maybe leave some food out when you are gone since it looks like it could be an active cycle.


    Wendy
     
  59. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Ok he is at 136 +3....do you think it is safe to leave him for a few hours? Can't really leave food out (other than dry food) because of the other two vultures :(

    I could give him a higher carb treat now...but that might skew things...what do you think? Its almost 930 now, won't be home until at least 4 pm....
     
  60. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    He will probably be fine but maybe give him a single HC treat to bring him up a little just in case. And test when you get hom eat 4pm.

    Wendy
     
  61. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Alrighty, he's at 180 at 4pm. I left before you responded so I had given him a small handful of his dry food and 4 HC treats, I figured better safe than sorry. But, this does leave us on track to inject at 6 in another 2 hours as long as he stays above 150, right?
     
  62. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Yep at his normal shot time, test him and shoot and feed if over 150. If less than that then stall and come here and ask for help.
     
  63. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    He ended up shooting up to 487 by PMPS, even after being 180 two hours before. I am guessing this is due to the handful of dry food I gave him when I panicked before I left. At any rate, I fed and gave him his 0.1 drop at 6:20+/-.
     
  64. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Could be.. or could have dropped low during the day and "bounced" off it. He seems to bounce quite often when he hits a green in the 60s. ie the 22/23rd june. Anyway can you get a +3?

    Bouncing:

     
  65. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Yea, didn't help that I couldn't be home to see where he was...though I did give him a handful of the dry food which spikes him. Is there anything else I can offer to him to prevent that if I am not home? I have the other two scoundrels to worry about when it comes to leaving food out and Harley doesn't graze, he's seek and destroy with food :)

    I can certainly give a +3 and even a +5, or would you prefer to see a +2 and +4?

    What is the critical hour tomorrow after his 6am dose? After being slow with work the last two weeks I have another inspection tomorrow so I will have to leave the house by 9am or so and be gone again until 3pm or so.
     
  66. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    A +3 would be good because you dont do a +3 very often and I am trying to fill up spaces on the chart. Depending on the +3 maybe we get a +5 or + 6.

    Tomorrow morning lets get a AMPS and + 3 before you go and see where he is. He seems to nadir around + 6 so thats noon.. any chance you can pop home at lunch?

    Otherwise maybe we have to do the same as today ( but say half the amount of dry food you gave?).


    Wendy
     
  67. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    AT +3 hes 453 :(

    Grr regretting giving him that handful of dry food :*( I will test again at +6 and see where we are.

    I will be about an hour away tomorrow so no. But I can try to coordinate to give it to him at 6, take it at +3 and again at +9.
     
  68. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    He might be coming down a little but its slow so he might not be much lower at +6 so... I would skip the +6 and get a test somewhere between + 8 and +10 if you can. If not because you need to sleep then no worries the AMPS is fine.

    Dont beat yourself up - this could also be a bounce. And be glad there isnt a black!

    We wont know if its a bounce or not until you can be home one day when he is doing this. Be glad its not the other way round where he is low at night and you need to stay up for more tests ;)

    Wendy
     
  69. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Good Point I have seen worse numbers!! :)
    I don't sleep well, so I don't mind testing him at night...though I do worry more when I am on the road and can't test him :( I have been so slow with work that I had been able to monitor him well the last two weeks. Let me know what points you'd like to see and I'll try to fit them in :)
     
  70. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    :) Try not to worry , although its not impossible, its unlikely he would have a hypo on such a low low dose. But ECID and he does look like he is a microdose cat.

    Ok then a + 9 or +10 would be great. Again I am trying to fill in the blanks a bit.

    When will you be home for the day again?

    and what kind of dry is it that you have?

    Wendy
     
  71. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    I have to leave by 9:00-10:00 am and will be home somewhere between 3:00-4:00pm.

    We have Blue Buffalo Basics Turkey/Sweet Potato dried food (that's what he used to solely eat). I gave him a handful of that AND 4 temptations treats. I tried buying him fancy low carb no grain freeze dried and jerky treats, he just turns his nose up at it and walks away BUT those unhealthy treats he goes nuts over...stinker :(
     
  72. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    The +9 I meant tonite ;)

    U tried just plain cooked chicken as a treat?

    Wendy
     
  73. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Whoops, yep, I was getting ahead of myself...I can do a +9 tonight then tomorrow a +3 and a +9 before PM feeding.

    Yea, it's the weirdest thing, he loves dry food and his canned food but could care less about other foodstuffs...or healthy treats. He really doesn't care much for tuna either. What if I mixed a drop of Karo and a few dry kibbles with his wet food snack before I left?

    Our other cat (hyperthyroid) will eat anything and by that I do mean ANYTHING...he will attempt to eat anything that he can fit in his mouth-whether he should or not....grapefruit, popcorn, melon, etc. He's nuts.
     
  74. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Wow you have your hands full with those two then ;)

    Syrup brings them up fast but also wears off fast. Better off giving a little dry mixed with some low carb wet.

    Ideally you pick up some medium carb food which you can put in a timed feeder that he will be able to access mid cycle... Or freeze it and let it slowly defrost.. Assuming the other cat doesn't eat it before he does.

    Later on you might be able to give a temptation treat as a reward for testing but we need to work out first if that spikes his blood sugar and by how much.. Some cats are very carb sensitive.
     
  75. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    That is my guess (that he could be carb sensitive). I will give him 1/3 of the dry food I gave him today (no treats though) mixed in with some wet food before I leave tomorrow morning.

    I will have to get 3 timed feeders. Granted Harley is the "boss" but his minions will want food too...and with Smokey's history of crystals and Allergen's history of Hepatic Lipidosis (which Harley has a history of too) I feed them all the same wet food because we've had good luck with it not disrupting their individual balances when they play musical bowls. We mostly put them in separate rooms to eat (mostly to make sure Harley gets his full ration) but they always have to see what is left over in who's bowl.

    I'll report back at +9 with a reading! :)
     
  76. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

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    Oct 6, 2010
    Just like Goldilocks! This one is too dry. This one has too much water. This one is just right.
     
  77. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Haha, yes that is Harley! :)

    Alrighty, I got a +6 reading of 406...I did give him a spoonful of wet food as a "snack" just now too (that does seem to drop his BG some)

    I will try to get up in a few hours (3am) to get a reading...but didn't sleep well last night so we'll see :) Either way I'll be up for his 6am test/reading...
     
  78. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    Eh I wouldnt bother.. hes coming down but its slow. He probably will be yellow at best tomorrow morning - if he is mid to high yellow or above I dont know if I would give the dry either - maybe some wet and couple of temptations treats before you leave.

    If he drops after food thats a good sign that his pancreas is still working! Very optimistic.

    Wendy
     
  79. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Ok, he's at 430 as of 6am AMPS...I'll check back in with either a +2/+4 or +3 before I leave...
     
  80. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Ok at +2 hes at 352...
     
  81. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Coming down still, skip all the high carb and just give him a low carb meal before you go.
     
  82. KKL

    KKL Member

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    That's my gut feeling too...I suspect he might be very carb sensitive and he hadn't had that much dry matter in well over a month...I think his system went nuts with it.
     
  83. KKL

    KKL Member

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    +3.5 he's at 331, headed out...gave him some wet food and will test when I get back home.
     
  84. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Sounds good - see you tonite!
     
  85. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    He's at 420 at +10....will test again in 2 hours at PMPS...but I am guessing we will definitely be doing his shot. Just wish I hadn't given him all that dry food yesterday....
     
  86. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Don't think it's the dry.. A bounce can last up to 72 hours.. Let's wait for it to clear and go from there. Hopefully soon.
     
  87. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Alright, 495 PMPS...still continue with the 1 drop?
     
  88. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes let's give it the full three days. Now if he is still high then we can discuss an increase. On June 30th you gave 0.2.. Can you get a dose between that one and the one drop?
     
  89. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    I am going to have to play for consistency. I am sure the 1 drop is maybe 1/2 to 1/4 of the 0.2. I may have to be creative to increase :)
     
  90. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    Ok time to start playing with a syringe and some food coloring and a white surface to see if you can get an in between dose ;) maybe play with the firmness at which you press the plunger.. Or by twisting the plunger..
     
  91. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Sounds good. so, Aim for twice what I have been getting now?
     
  92. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Yes but not as much as the 0.2
     
  93. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Alright, he is coming back down, he's at 296 +3....
     
  94. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Then it was a bounce.. Let's see how low he goes. You may be dealing with a low preshot again tomorrow morning.. U in work?
     
  95. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Alrighty, how often do you want me to track him? We are due to go over to a BBQ tomorrow afternoon (we were supposed to be out of town this week but cancelled due to Harley). Otherwise I am working from home in the morning, also my husband has off Friday even if I have to go on the road in the morning.
     
  96. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    You know I don't even know your name?!

    Tonite can you get a +5?

    Tomorrow lets see where he is preshot. Keep with the one drop though for now. Usual rules apply regarding shooting depending on preshot level.
     
  97. Deb & Wink

    Deb & Wink Well-Known Member

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    Jan 31, 2013
    It's Kris. From an older post.

     
  98. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Oh whoops, yes it's Kris :)
    I can certainly do another reading at +5...

    how do i handle pushing back or skipping
    a shot if we get hung up in traffic tomorrow?
     
  99. KKL

    KKL Member

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    Jun 20, 2013
    Ok, at +5 he's at 221 (down from 495)
     
  100. Wendy&Tiggy(GA)

    Wendy&Tiggy(GA) Well-Known Member

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    Nov 15, 2011
    What do you mean? Will you not be home for AM shot?
     

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