WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Solved

Hi!!
I see "Wild Calling!" mentioned here often lately, so I wanted to throw in my thoughts/my (unconfident) calculation about WC's phosphorus value, since it's important for us who care of CKD kitties.
I am hoping that someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I saw Ann (& Tess) did a fabulous chart, and she is kindly sharing it with us.
I am actually thinking that the phosphorus values she has as DM% may not be on Dry Matter Basis, but rather on Wet Basis (I don't know the term for this... maybe "as fed" value?).
Sorry for the lack of proper term, but what I mean by "Wet Basis" is % against whole weight including moisture.

I contacted Wild Calling! last summer, and got some charts.
Wild Calling's charts are really confusing, without units properly indicated, so I corresponded with them a few times, asking them a bunch of questions.
They were nice and sincere, but their replies to my questions were really confusing and/or didn't really make sense, so I just gave up at that time.

Please look at this chart I found on the internet.
The protein % and fat % are slightly different from Ann's list, but the important values here - moisture %, Dry Matter % and Phosphorus % are exactly the same.
So I'm also going to use this phos values as their typical/average phos contents.

The reasons why I think these values are NOT DM% are:
1. If you look at the protein %, they are all 9% or 10%. If these % were Dry Matter %, we wouldn't even be considering these foods, would we?
As Dr. Lisa's list show, most canned foods have 40s - 50s DM%.
So I thought it is reasonable to assume that all other % numbers below "protein" are also NOT DM%.

2. If I add up numbers from protein to sulfur, the total gets somewhat close to 22% (total DM%), so the % values of protein, fat, fiber, ash, calcium, phosphorus, magnesium, potassium, sodium and sulfur are breakdown of the total DM% of 22%, and not indicated the % within the 22%.

So here's my calculation......

In case of Buffalo:
Phosphorus % on Wet Basis (including moisture) = 0.629%
---> 0.629% is the phos percentage out of 78% Moisture + 22% DM (whole thing), not the percentage out of DM only.
And we need to know what this 0.629% becomes after all the moisture is drained, don't we? --- 0.629% against 100% = ??? (DM%) against 22%
To convert this into DM% : 0.629% divide by 22% (ttl DM%) = 2.86% DM BASE

According to Binky's Q&A page shared by Marje, "1% dry weight is approximately equal to 240 mg per 100 calories (I think this is a typo of 100 K caloires?)".

So, to convert the DM Phos% into mg/100kcal: 2.86 x 240 = 686mg/100kcal.

If my logic above is correct, I get below values for all other kinds.

Buffalo: DM% 2.86 / approx 686mg/100kcal
Pheasant: DM% 1.22 / approx 293mg/100kcal
Chicken: DM% 1.55 / approx 371mg/100kcal
Beef: DM% 1.54 / approx 370mg/100kcal
Salmon: DM% 1.65 / approx 395mg/100kcal
Duck: DM% 1.63 / approx 392mg/100kcal
Rabbit: DM% 1.51 / approx 362mg/100kcal

Again, I have never done this calculation before, and I am not entirely confident, so I am asking for other's eyes.
I am just confused, and I think the charts Wild Calling is giving out is a bit confusing too.
Since some members are considering using WC foods, I just wanted to put this out there.

I am not good at math, and I am not good at explaining things either, so I'm sorry my logic explanation is also confusing.
Using the 2nd language isn't helping either.....
I myself gave up using their products, but I hope someone can clarify this for the members considering Wild Calling!

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Interesting that you write this. A friend of mine did the dry matter calculations and came up with much higher numbers. Since this food is low carb high fiber I was surprised when I read here that it is low phos so I asked her to send me her calculations. She got beef 1.541, chicken 1.545, salmon 1.645 ,pheasant 1.222, duck 1.632, rabbit 1.509 , buffalo 2.859.

Elise

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

So what I got and what Elise's friend got basically match.....
I'm still not saying my math is right, but it might be.....
I thought maybe Ann got some incorrect information from WC on phos.....
I have communicated with several petfood companies in the past, and sometimes they don't really know much about nutritional values, DM, ME, as-fed, etc. unless they have an in-house nutritionist, and could easily mislead consumers.....

I just wanted to let those who are feeding/considering WC know that the phos value may not be as low as they think.

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Yes, Mariko, I questioned the numbers immediately. Another person had said she wouldn't feed it to her cat because she is phosphorus phobic with older cats. I couldn't find her numbers but my friend confirmed it. I know enough to know that a food that is low carb high protein has to be higher phos. I too keep searching for the perfect food. Having had cats get CKD I was upset to need the low carb food for Max but diabetes trumps here.

I used to make calls and write emails for Helen's food list and I was amazed that the dry matter info was not available and many didn't know what it is. If using minimums and maximums to compute you end up with inaccurate numbers as well. Purina even refuses to give more than a handful at a time and says they need to have the nutritionist crunch the numbers. With so many people asking you know that isn't so. They just don't want to give out the info and they do know. Other reps that answer the lines for other manufacturers just don't have an understanding of the differences.

Elise

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Thanks for posting this, Mariko....I haven't bought any Wild Callings yet, but I was about to.....and now I'm super-confused! I'll be curious to see how this finally settles out - it would be SO nice to have another fuds option for our FD/CKD kitties....

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Hello I just wanted to add in case anyone was wondering, the chart that WC gave me (that I gave Ann to help) is very similar to the one on the cat forum; the one I got has no min/max written beside the names and some of the protein and fat % were higher at a quick glance. There were also some calculations I didn't understand at the bottom of the chart that I got. When I emailed the company I asked "Can I please get the phosphorus values "as fed" (not guaranteed analysis) for Dry Matter percentage and mg/phos per 100kcal? " and the chart was called can DMB analysis. I was emailing with Mariko last night so she had my info and the link to the condo Rhiannon had done with the protein/fat/carb calculated by Marje/BJM before I'm sorry I can't link on my iphone to the other condo but will try later!

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

I'm a numbers/math "cripple", but the thought occurs to me that you all ought to run this by Dr. Lisa Pierson to see what she comes up with.

Just a thought!!

Ella

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Rachel, I didn't mean to imply that you or Marje or anyone here didn't understand about min and max. I was talking about the pet food reps that man the phones.

Elise

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

I didn't even see your post before I posted Elise, lol. I didn't do any calculations and am clueless on this whole how to convert it :? . I just wanted to mention that the chart I got was very similar to the one on the other forum and what I'd asked for so everyone would know

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Mariko , You are right, I made a mistake in reading the chart the company sent Rachel. Glad that you caught it. The chart you linked to was Guaranteed Analysis values w/ max and min values and really can't be calculated accurately. I thought he chart Rachel got had both As Fed and Dry Matter listings, although the way they named them was weird.

I went back over the original chart and from the header what looked like a listing of DM values on the second sheet, is I think really As Fed values, not Dry Matter as I originally thought. I've corrected the chart I put up and I'll make notes where I posted on the board.

Sorry for the Goof up. Tess is going to be disappointed, she really liked them! At least the chicken isn't too bad, still under 250.

The phosphorus levels are quite a bit higher than my original calculations. The carbs are still OK according to the % of calories from Carbs on the WC chart, line 23. the second set of carb % numbers is running fhe As Fed numbers from the WC chart through the calculations that Dr. Lisa gives :

• Buffalo … 484.46 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 7.8% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………7.5% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula
  Pheasant…264.38 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 0% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………-0.5% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula
  Chicken … 217.53 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 4.8% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………4.6% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula
  Beef … … 253.67 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 1% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………1.0% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula
  Salmon … 275.10 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 0.3% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………0.3% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula
  Duck … … 327.36 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 1.1% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………1.1% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula
  Rabbit … 286.21 mg Phos/100 kcal … … … 0.1% carbs (from line 23, copied form WC's chart) ………0.1% carbs from Dr. Lisa's formula

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

I'm glad this got sorted out.
Thank you, Ann, for confirming!

 

Re: WILD CALLING! PHOSPHORUS VALUE ??? // Please look!!!

Thanks for the updates and info, everyone! It's too bad we don't have another option for our kitties...we'll just keep plugging away until someone in the fuds industry catches on that there is a real need for foods that are appropriate for FD and CKD kitties...

 

I haven't gone through all the math because Ann did such a great job. But my first look at the charts Mariko linked definitely indicated to me that those were Guaranteed Analysis and cannot be used. Any time you see % min or % max, it is not as-feds or dry matter basis. Even if the company tells you it is.

Thanks, Ann!!

 

I know that, Marje. :smile:
That's why I made a point of mentioning that both lists have exactly the same phos values.
And that was the only list available I can post without having to make someone breach the "confidentiality" clause.
Anyway, Wild Calling! gives out pretty much the same chart whether you ask for a DM analysis, as-fed analysis, typical or guaranteed analysis, although they do have a different chart for ME values.
And that's why I decided I myself would not use the products when I was originally looking into it last summer.