Young again zero carb dry

Discussion in 'Feline Health - (The Main Forum)' started by Lucy, Dec 3, 2012.

  1. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Hi everyone,
    I am looking for advice on this dry food. My cat has been off insulin for 6 days now but she is losing weight because she is so picky about wet food (it has to be fresh, not too cold, etc...). She was a free feeder on dry food for all her life. Is this zero carb young again all it has cracked up to be? I would like her to be able to free feed again in order to maintain her weight.
    Thanks!
     
  2. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Dry food is water-depleted and cats won't drink enough to compensate. This makes the kidneys work harder and may contribute to kidney failure & bladder stones.

    For tips on transitioning to wet food, check out Cat Info

    Also, you may stimulate appetite by active play for 15-20 minutes before meals. It triggers the hunt, catch, kill, eat cycle of behavior. Maybe it'll reduce some of the pickiness.
     
  3. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    That is a great tip! Thanks!
     
  4. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Got my cat off insulin in 2 days with the "zero carb young again" cat food.

    My cat has been on dry food for all 23 years of his life & the only moist food he'll eat is the Hill's A/D admixed with gerber's baby food I finally got him eating after prolonged anorexia. That's horrible for his blood sugars. I've tried every other moist canned food on the face of god's green earth. I've seen him lick the juices & leave the meat behind, so I try putting it in a blender, making him a cat milkshake as I used to with the purina DM so I could get it down his feeding tube. Then maybe he'll lick it up once, but never again. So I try some other variety. I put parmesan on it, sing hare krishna, and the shma yisrael. Then I pray to yahweh. No avail. The cash outlay in trying to get him to eat canned has been extraordinary.

    He has never had urinary problems, or honestly any other problems in all those years on eukanuba lamb dry. His creatinine and BUN at age 23 are low end of normal. However multiple ill-advised veterinary prednisone injections put him over the edge into pancreatitis and frank diabetes.

    For me, zero carb dry food from young again got his diabetes controlled, after his resuscitation from a near death experience induced by carb toxicity with an ill-advised course of steroids. It was a godsend. If you have a cat that's a serious diabetic and hooked on dry, it's definitely, DEFINITELY worth a try.

    You'll find many other cats that have gone 20+ years without a problem on dry food.

    That's my opinion.
     
  5. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Thanks sandman! She has always loved water and i have bowls of it everywhere so I am not too concerned about the water depletion. I just hate to see her not eat and lose weight. Maybe I will just put it out at night and give her canned during the day.
     
  6. squeem3

    squeem3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Instead of dry food, why not leave out some freeze dried raw food for snacks if your cat is fussy about her wet food? Raw food is a whole lot healthier for your cat than any dry food, IMO. Freeze dried raw is a bit softer in texture than dry food. Freeze dried raw can be rehydrated in water before serving but if you plan on leaving it out all day, then you should leave it dry to prevent bacteria from growing in it. I don't think you would need to leave out a lot of food, maybe half a cup would be enough? Stella and Chewy's makes a 100% complete freeze dried raw that you can use, http://www.stellaandchewys.com/cat-products.php Use the regular kibble-shaped dinners. The pouched are meant to be rehydrated as a single meal or as a treat sprinkled on top of canned food. When you do serve canned food the way your cat likes (I assume twice a day?), just add some extra water to ensure good water intake.

    My two cents :smile: Personally, I would never feed a diabetic cat dry food, even a supposed no carb grain-free one.
     
  7. macal

    macal Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2012
    You could also try sprinkling a small amount of the dry on the wet food. That's how I get one of my finicky cats to eat his wet food. He's not diabetic, but I'm trying to switch him over to canned only now that I know about the risks of feeding dry only, and it's been a struggle. The two things that work so far are a sprinkling of dry food over top (1-2 teaspoons is all it takes) or a tablespoon of tuna on top.
     
  8. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Thanks everyone. We have a great pet food store here in Portland called Meat. I will check out their freeze dried options this weekend.
     
  9. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Young Again is very misleading when they say their food is "zero carb." They are rounding down the number from the dry matter analysis, which if you do with pretty much any lower carb canned food, they would also all be "zero carb". When we say less than 10% carbs here, we are talking about less than 10% carbs per 100 kcal, and all of the numbers on the food charts have been converted to reflect this value. Most foods that advertise themselves as "zero" carb actually come out to be 8-15% carbs after the DMA is converted.

    Several studies have shown that cats NEVER make up what they lose at the water dish.They do not have thirst mechanisms like dogs or people do; they only drink AFTER they are dehydrated. That's why they need moisture in their food, no matter how much you see them drinking from their dish. Excessive drinking is usually a sign of chronic dehydration, or another condition like diabetes or kidney disease (which is very, very common in older cats that have eaten dry food all their life, so you certainly don't want to continue to feed dry food to these cats).

    The problem with even lower carb dry foods is that regardless of the carbs, the manufacturing process makes the food more glycemic, because anytime a food is cooked at extremely high temperatures it increases the glycemic index. Not all carbs are created equal--dry EVO at 8% carbs will shoot Bandit's blood sugar up into the 200s, but Merrick's canned Grammy's Pot Pie at 8% carbs has no effect on his BG at all. That's because the Merrick's less glycemic than the EVO. One of the most common reasons we see a lot of cats relapse from remission is because after they went off insulin they started eating dry again--low carb or not. I would avoid these foods if you can.

    Of course, your cat needs to eat enough calories to survive, and a lower carb dry food is better than nothing (EVO and Instinct are two other options that are pretty easy to find), but I would continue to work on completely eliminating the dry from her diet. Here are some great tips and tricks: http://catinfo.org/#Transitioning_Dry_Food_Addicts_to_Canned_Food_.

    One thing I would take a careful look at is whether she underweight/losing weight? If so, that would be a reason to introduce the dry. If not, it may just be that she's not eating as much as the canned food as she did the dry because most cats need less canned food than dry. Some people end up thinking their cats aren't eating enough when they actually are; they just don't need as much food because they are actually digesting most of the canned food, where they weren't the dry.
     
  10. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Lucy:

    I keep both moist & dry out at all times for all my cats. The dry is the zero carb "young again". So Moist is the blue wilderness stuff where the listed ingredients (not including carbs) total out to >100% and they say it's 95% meat. I leave parmesan on the latter.

    It's safe for my cats, even the diabetic one to graze all day long on either or both & you can keep moistening the wet stuff with water to keep it fresh.

    The diabetic one is extremely finicky and I am always very concerned about anorexia and hepatic lipidosis. You should be too.

    A little hunger in a cat is ok. Too much is hepatic lipidosis & life threatening.

    My cats love to drink from the faucet & are always all over me to run it for them, so moisture is zero problem for any of them. And if you're still queasy about the zero carb "young again", go to the site, hit the ingredient list & go down it one at a time. The only thing there that even COULD contribute carbs is item #9 (fructooligosaccharides). That one is indigestible as the configuration of its chemical bonds does not allow attack by digestive enzymes. Done some web research on that. No other carbs possible. On that basis, in some respects this is a better food for a diabetic cat than wet from a can.

    (Please no flames from the denizens of Hodgkins site on this --- I just tore her board moderator a new a-hole over on the amazon site for her book after they banned me from her site for mentioning "young again zero carb"). What a stupid sot that one. Don't be a stupid sot.

    My 2 cents.
     
  11. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Cats do NOT make up what they loose in dry food by drinking. They evolved in the desert and do not have a thirst drives like people do. They mostly drink once they are already dehydrated, not before. This has been proven in several studies. Here's a couple of the more well known: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/464354, and http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...T (05:00-07:00 EST) for essential maintenance. I would also highly recommend reading Dr. Zoran's article on the basic nutritional needs of cats: http://www.catinfo.org/docs/zorans_article.pdf.

    As I explained before, it's not necessarily the carb content that causes the lower carb dry foods to increase blood sugar in cats, it's how glycemic the food is. Lower carb generally means lower glycemic, but any starch cooked at a high temperature will be more glycemic, and dry foods MUST contain a starch to bind the food. So not every low carb food is low glycemic, which is what most diabetic cats really need to stay diet controlled. While there are a few diabetic cats that can handle lower carb dry food, many can not. I know, because I have one of them. He cannot eat even a few pieces of EVO or Instinct, or the low carb EVO Cravings treats that are manufactured via the same process, or his blood sugar will shoot up into the 200 range. There have been many cats here that end up needing insulin again because of the reintroduction of dry food, even the lower carb ones. I would not recommend feeding it except as a last resort, if the cat would not eat anything else and is not getting enough calories from the wet alone.

    The other thing you need to take into account is the cat's age. Chronic Dehydration from dry food causes kidney disease, and most cats over the age of 12 that were fed solely dry diets have some loss of kidney function. However, this does not show up in tests until around 70% of kidney function is gone. Getting adequate moisture in the cat at an early stage can help stall the disease and extend the cat's life, which is why you especially don't want to feed dry food to older cats.

    Another thing I forgot to mention earlier is that you should look at the portions you're feeding; if your cat will eat 1 oz of food at each sitting and needs 5 oz a day to get enough calories, you can always feed 5 times a day (an auto feeder with frozen canned helps a lot with this).
     
  12. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    OMG!!! All those armies of dessicated, dehydrated cats. I guess there must be something different & special about the blood osmolality receptors in a cat's brain (as opposed to a human's) so they ONLY respond to blood glucose and not sodium or anything else. That must be why you see polydipsia in a hyperglycemic cat even though all the other cats just get dessicated when they don't drink...

    Usually you have to go to Dr. Hodgkins board to find idiocy of this magnitude. Thank you for bringing it to this one.
     
  13. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    My sluggo had been running blood sugars in the 400's on a mix of the (moist & from a can) Hill's A/D admixed with chicken flavored gerber's baby food. And the carbs weren't coming from the baby food.

    His blood glucoses fell to the 50-80 range off insulin within 2 days & have stayed there for 2 1/2 weeks off insulin since the switch to the "zero carb" food from "young again".

    Unless you've tried this & logged the glucometer readings, you simply don't know. This food is more than just fine for a diabetic cat.

    My cat has gone into remission with this & stayed there. With certain canned moist foods his blood sugars were raging & highly unstable on the juice.

    That's all I have to say.

    Just back from the vet to run the fructosamine level that will (hopefully) pronounce him officially in remission. Results tomorrow!
     
    Betchadeb likes this.
  14. Squeaky and KT (GA)

    Squeaky and KT (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2011
    Let's attack the issues, not the people....there's enough issues to go around. You have given your opinion but everyone else is entitled to THEIRS without fear of attack....
     
  15. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Sorry, but the illogic of a polydipsic hyperglycemic cat while every other cat runs around dessicated seemed ripe for ridicule to me. If a cat can somehow not respond to the same things that make a human drink (blood osmolality sensors in the hypothalamus), the cat should just dehydrate until it dies without ever going to the water bowl (or faucet).

    And I very much appreciate a free exchange of ideas. That is a very good thing. You certainly don't have that over on the Hodgkin's board.

    Liberty is a good thing, both for its own sake & for allowing truth to emerge. If I was censoring ideas, albeit with not such a heavy hand as deleting the disagreeable post &/or removing posting privileges, I do indeed apologize.
     
  16. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    In humans, it is very possible to have mild dehydration and not sense it. This often happens in elderly individuals. A vet might know if this sometimes occurs in elderly cats.

    I suspect that chronic, mild dehydration is insufficiently motivating for a cat to notice. I also suspect the duration of the mild dehydration is a key factor - a day slightly dehydrated, no big deal; years of it may take a toll.

    Additionally, talking numbers here - there are often examples at the extreme ends of continuums. So a cat that survived 23+ years on dry food may be an exceptional genetic specimen with the ability to withstand nutrient limitations. Other cats may lack that capacity. Each Cat Is Different, you know? No 2 are likely to be identical, short of clones or split eggs.
     
  17. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    That makes no sense. There are many conditions like (diabetes and CKD) that can cause polydipsia in cats, but lack of polydipsia is not proof that the cat is sufficiently hydrated. Humans can easily be chronically dehydrated without exhibiting polydipsia. It has been PROVEN (see studies above, but there are many, many more) that cats lack sufficient thirst drives to fully compensate for the lack of moisture in dry food, and cats eating mainly a dry diet ARE dehydrated, which is why kidney disease and and urinary tract disease are so common in middle aged and older cats. These are facts, not theories. I would recommend reading the articles on the subject.

    To illustrate more plainly, here is a table taken from a study on UT disease which illustrates the water intake and urine volume in cats fed wet or dry food:

    [​IMG]

    Urine output is halved in cats on dry diets. Which any medical professional knows is an indication of dehydration.

    I did log Bandit's glucometer readings on several advertised ultra-low carb dry foods and treats because I was trying to find something I could put in one of those treat balls that wouldn't raise his BG. They ALL raised his blood glucose levels from anywhere from 50-150 points. I've seen cat after cat on these boards eating low carb dry foods with elevated BG, which lowered once the dry was removed, or had to go back on insulin because of the introduction of a low carb food. Yes, a few cats can handle them. But many can't, and in my opinion, it's certainly not worth the risk of losing remission, as well as the increased risk of urinary tract and kidney disease.

    My great-grandmother lived to be 101 and smoked cigarettes her whole life, but I wouldn't go around recommending that it's healthy to smoke cigarettes. There are always exceptions to the rule, but that doesn't make the exception the rule.

    EDIT: The table didn't save it's formatting, so I entered it as an image instead.
     
  18. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Not every canned food is suitable for a diabetic. None of the Hills foods, canned or dry, are appropriate for a diabetic cat. Hill's A/D is 13% carbs and contains corn flour, a highly glycemic ingredient. I am sure that the dry food you are feeding now is lower in carbs than that specific canned food, but there are many canned foods that are suitable for diabetics. I'm sure if you tried one, it would work just as well.

    My cat has been in remission for over 2 years. Eating only canned food, because ANY dry, including low carb dry, will spike his BG. Many cats are like this. But not all, so maybe your cat is one of the ones that can handle it. However, it's not prudent to advise others it's perfectly fine to feed when it's not fine to feed so many diabetic cats. And even if Bandit could tolerate it, I still wouldn't feed it because of the large, increased risk of Urinary Tract and Kidney Disease. My other cat, Gabby, ate a dry diet only the first 14 years of her life. By the time I had read up on the subject and changed her to canned food, it was too late--she already had early stage kidney disease, like most senior cats fed a dry diet do.

    Again, if those certain canned foods you fed were high carb or contained highly glycemic ingredients (Bandit can't eat Friskies canned because the rice in it will spike his BG, even though it's less than 8% carbs), then yes, they would cause unstable numbers.

    We consider a cat in remission when numbers stay within a normal range (50-120 on a human meter) on their own for 14 days. Good tests to get that indicate remission are a fasting test, 2hrs and 4 hrs after a meal. Why are you getting a fructosamine at this point? A fructosamine is useful at diagnosis, but unnecessary afterwards if you're home testing. Are you not home testing daily?
     
  19. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Well shoot, after 6 days no insulin she tested at 215 this morning. It was just after a meal. I will test again tonight.
     
  20. Hi Lucy,
    How soon after eating, and what did she eat? That may explain the number, or part of it.

    Carl
     
  21. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    It was probably 15 minutes or so after she ate. She had some natural Value canned food with nutritional yeast on top. I can't wait to go test her blood again!
     
  22. Well said! Please be open-minded, be kind, and don't hijack threads. Please make sure to report all posts that contain possible violations of board etiquette and rules. Thank you, Rebecca.

    Sandman,
    This is the 2nd thread that's gotten hijacked by this debate. The free exchange of ideas is a great thing, and it happens here a lot more often than it does on the YDC site for sure.

    But it's a "time and place" issue, really. The Health forum is the first place new members are encouraged to post, and most new members are freaked out enough trying to get their heads wrapped around the fact that feline diabetes even exists, never mind what to do about it. The last thing they need is their questions getting buried under a debate.

    The "right place" for debate is the Think Tank forum. And maybe the whole "young again zero carb" issue could be discussed at great length there. When it devolves into words like "idiotic", "shallow thinking" and "idiocy", well, that's when the webmaster has to edit threads and ask that people knock it off.

    Here's what, IMO, it comes down to. If the overwhelming majority of advice is "don't feed dry", and those people are wrong, well, there's no harm caused to the cat. However, if "Young Again Zero Carb" actually is bad for a cat (and I'm thinking the jury is still out on that), then that will cause harm to the cat, especially to a diabetic cat.

    The #1 thing that people who join this board and give advice are asked to keep in mind is the "above all, do no harm" tenet. And we all try to do that.

    Can we move the debate to the debate forum?

    Carl
     
  23. Sometimes, when you haven't been giving insulin, one thing you can try is to test before feeding, then a half-hour or an hour later (you'd expect to see a rise in BG), then test again at like +3. You'd hope to see a decrease at that time, which indicates that maybe her pancreas is at least trying to help out with the BG boost from eating.

    Carl
     
  24. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    I just tested her at 147, no food. At what number should I be hiving insulin? I use the Alphatrak for pets.
     
  25. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Right now, no insulin if under 200 w/ a human glucometer or 230 on AlphTrak
    .
    AlphaTrak reads about 30 points higher than human glucometer @ the low end of scale, which would make that a 117 and unsafe to shoot.
     
  26. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Thank you! I get confused because so many numbers don't indicate Alphatrak or human.
     
  27. One thing you can do so that everyone is aware that you are using an Alpahtrack (if that is the meter you will be using all the time).

    Go to your control panel.
    Click on the "profile" tab.
    Click on "edit signature".
    In the box that pops up, you can type anything you want, up to 255 characters. (this is also where you will put the link to your spreadsheet once you have one).

    Put something in there that says something like :
    Lucy diagnosed (date), Lantus insulin.
    Using ALPHATRACK meter.

    You can change font color, underline, whatever you want.

    Once you have it all in there, just hit "submit" below the box. After that, every time you post, that info will appear under your message. If everyone sees it and understands that you're using an AT meter, we'll automatically do the math and think "ok, that's 30 points above what we normally think" so we'll know that an 80 to you is a 50 to us, and that'll be the line we don't want you to go below.

    Carl
     
  28. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
    Ta da! Why are human glucometers the standard?
     
  29. j_o

    j_o Member

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    Nov 30, 2012
    I think that the strips for human meters are cheaper but I'm not 100% sure because I have always used a human meter
     
  30. Yes, I think it's primarily a cost issue. Human meters can be bought for 10 bucks or less, and some companies give them away when you buy a pack of strips. They can also be purchased just about anywhere. AT meters are expensive, and the strips are too, and if you run out, I think you can only get them from a vet?
    My Relion Micro cost $9, and the strips were 50 strips for $20. I think the Relion Prime is even cheaper per strip.

    If human meters have proven to be accurate enough to effectively manage the disease, and you can do it at a much lower cost, then that's the choice most people make, I guess.

    The fact that "we" always think in terms of human meters is probably because 95% or more of the people here use, or have used them. Not that they are any better or worse than pet meters, just a case of overwhelming majority?

    Good job editing the signature!

    Carl
     
  31. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Holy cow! My Alphatrak was $180 and 50 refill strips was $50. Sheesh....
     
  32. OK, well, then you can see my point? ;-)
    Wow, I didn't realize they were THAT expensive. Yikes. A lot of vets don't encourage home testing. Some seem to think that if it requires that much effort from the caregiver, they might not choose to try treating the diabetes. They also probably think that with the cost of meters and strips, that's another reason to choose not treating. And a lot of them seem to think that human meters aren't good enough to do the job. If an AT had been my only choice, I don't know that I could have afforded to home test. My vet told me to go to walmart, and to keep in mind that my meter would read lower than hers. But she was perfectly fine with my using the Relion, and I never had to have her test Bob's BG again.

    Carl
     
  33. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Vets should be more informed, I spent $800 the week that she was diagnosed. For some people the difference between $650 and $800 might make all the difference in the world. My vet encourages me to home test (I am addicted) but she has me check infrequently. This scares me a bit so I check often for peace of mind. I am happy to have found this forum!
     
  34. LOL, eventually, you'll want to be posting in the Lantus Tight Regulation forum. When they hear how much you love testing, they're gonna love you!
    But seriously, there's nothing wrong with testing to feel safe and confident. And if Lucy is okay with it, that's a bonus. You can keep posting here as long as you want to, but at some point, check out the Lantus forums (Tight Regulation and Relaxed). The TR forum is the busiest one on the board, and everyone who posts in either forum is knowledgeable about Lantus. If you ever have an emergency and it's the middle of the night, post a "911" on the TR forum and someone will be there most likely.

    Carl
     
  35. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Thanks Carl! I am a pro now. Nobody told me that you have to get the lancet right onto her vein. Anything around that is like blood from a turnip. I also realized that it helps NOT to hold her down. I guess we all have our tricks. I can't help but stare at her and wonder what her bg is. :)
     
  36. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    You DON'T want to aim for the vein, unless you absolutely need a reading and can't get blood any other way. You are aiming for the capillaries that run off the vein to the edge of the ear. The more you test the more their ears 'learn' to bleed. Actually what is happening is that the cat is building more capillaries around the edge of the ear.

    You can use anywhere around the ear edge and both ears, I know with both my diabetics one ear bleeds better than the other as well as each has a spot that is better than others. With Autumn her "sweet spot" is near the tip of her ears, with Maxwell who has big batwing ears his "sweet spot" is down low near that little double fold of skin. So if you may want to try different spots and different ears until you figure out where Lucy's 'sweet spot' is at.

    And yep, testing can become addictive. :lol: Just wait for the day you cut yourself and grab the meter to check your own BG :lol: :lol: :lol: Been there, Done that :D

    Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
     
  37. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Hmm.. Well when I don't aim for the vein I would end up poking her 5 or 6 times with no blood. It was awful.
     
  38. Someone might have already asked, but what size/gauge lancets are you using?
    Carl
     
  39. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Hi Lucy,

    This is just my experience with my own cat but...

    ...my close vision isn't that great, and Bert has black ears, so I've never been able to be too particular about exactly where on the edge of Bert's ear I'm aiming the lancet. Sometimes I get more blood than at other times. Maybe that's because I've hit a vein? I don't know....

    Bert has been diabetic and on insulin for 6 years now. He's also a really tricky diabetic who needs a LOT of hometesting. I've calculated that - over these 6 years - I've done almost 20,000 tests (yes, twenty thousand tests) on the same ear.... And he is just fine. :smile:

    If I had better eyesight, and a choice about exactly where I could aim the lancet, then maybe I'd do things differently. But we all 'do what we have to do'...

    I think the main thing, especially initially, is that you get the test! Anything else you can achieve regarding greater precision over time is - in my opinion - a bonus. ;-)
     
  40. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Also has anyone mentioned to you about warming up the ear first? If not that can help tremendously in the beginning. Just take a thinnish cotten sock, add a small amount of rice in the toe, and knot...then toss in the microwave for about 15 seconds until very warm but not hot and hold it to Lucy's ear until her ear is all nice and toasty warm, that helps getting the blood flowing.

    I don't need the rice sock anymore to get Autumn's ears to bleed but I still use it to back her ear when I poke so I have something firm behind it. Another trick is to you a very small coating of neosporin or vaseline on the ear so the blood beads up better.

    Also what color are Lucy's ears? if they are dark colored you can always try poking on the inside instead of the outside so you can see where you are poking better.

    Also if it is just a spot check, try the 3 strikes and you're out rule, after 3 tries Lucy gets her treat and is on her way, you can try again later. I found when I first started out if we tried too many times in a row we both got frustrated and then nothing worked right. So unless it was a preshot or she was way too low and I absolutely needed that test, it was 3 tries and I was done for awhile. We both then had time to relax and it made the next attempt go so much smoother.

    And lastly if you are still having trouble and would like some hands on help getting the technique down you can always give us your general location and ask if there are any members close to you that can pop by and give you a hand. While they aren't on the this board I know I personally have help 3 folks near me learn to "Poke a Kitty" :D

    Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
     
  41. lynn and bear (ga)

    lynn and bear (ga) Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Someone gave me these tips once and they made all the difference for my cat;

    - Do it at a slight angle, not straight on
    - Do it quickly
    - Do it as shallow as possible, don't go deep

    Hope something here might help :)
     
  42. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
  43. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Thank you for all the helpful information! I do warm up ber ears, they arenpretty dark. I am not sure about the lancets, my vet prescribed them with the insulin and syringes. We are getting pretty good now though. I usually get it on the first try without holding her and she bleeds just enough for the meter.
     
  44. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Hi all,
    Here is some info I received from the young again staff.
    Analysis listed on the web site has to guarantee a minimum protein and fat. The actual for that diet is 55 protein and 26 fat. We also have high levels of non digestible soluble fiber which is not reflected in the crude fiber number and of course there is the ash content. There are no sources of digestible carbs in the food. There is a trace amount of glucose because glucose is present in the muscle tissue when the meat is processed.
    55 protein + 26 fat +6.5 ash + 3 fiber + 8 moisture = 98.5 and the rest is soluble fiber. The guar gum is a non digestible fiber along with the FOS.
     
  45. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Lucy,

    That matches my own read of the label. If there are no sources of digestible carbs, then the only source of carbs will be when the amino acids go to the liver. It is illogical to presume the processing of the food is going to raise the glycemic index beyond what the HCL in the stomach & proteolytic enzymes are already doing. This is an extremely good food for a diabetic cat, IMHO.

    All that fiber may help explain why many cats (mine included) get loose stools early on with young again, particularly if they overeat.

    On another note, I read perhaps on this board about a cat winding up diabetic on canned kitten blue wilderness. This goes to the point I was shouted down about above. You can't assume a food is good because it is moist & comes out of a can or that it's bad because it's a kibble. My own cat has actually taken to eating blue wilderness chicken (moist from a can) & I have to say I have some misgivings about it so far uncorroborated by heinous BG numbers. The carb read on this food elsewhere on the board is given as 1-2%. My own analysisbased on the guaranteed analysis comes up at 6% carbs on a dry matter basis (for a moist food at 78% moisture, I sum up the protein, fat, fiber, ash subtract from 100 and multiply by 4). This is still perfectly acceptable for a diabetic cat as a number. However, ingredient #3 on the label is "potato". That's a big red flag. So far, BG numbers have been tame serving this side-by-side with zero carb "young again". But while at petsmart tonight, I scanned some other offerings with the blue wilderness label. Some were quite horrendous as regards my back of the napkin carb calculations, so be very careful.

    Once again... don't assume a moist food is good & a kibble is bad. Do your homework as lucy has done & I'm trying to do. There is some horrendous moist food coming out of cans at your local petsmart.
     
  46. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
  47. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Let me save you the time. I'm familiar with that calculator. I went out & punched in the numbers for blue wilderness & it came out with something like 1.5% carbs.

    I guess that could be right if they aren't converting to a dry matter basis. Doing that, the 6% is closer to the truth. But even that seems low with "potato" as #3 in the ingredient list to me.

    It is one moist food that gives me heartburn, though it seems ok so far. Young again zero carb doesn't give me heartburn.

    And this stuff is very important, Lucy. It's more important than the sort of insulin you use or when.

    The wrong food can cause a BG surge you'll be totally incapable of controlling with PZI or lantos insulin. Been there. Done that.
     
  48. Julia & Bandit

    Julia & Bandit Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Guaranteed analyses cannot be used to determine carb, fat, and protein content, because they use minimum and maximum values, which presents a range of numbers that will make any calculations based off those values vary too much to be reliable.

    But let's say we have the as-fed values, and this food is less than 10% carbs, like EVO or Instinct. I've explained already that carbs don't necessarily equal diabetic safe for a cat with dry food, because the manufacturing process of dry food makes even low carb ingredients higher glycemic, which boosts the BG of a lot of diabetic cats.

    But let's even say you have a lucky cat that doesn't see BG boosts from the higher glycemic ingredients in the food. There is more to the food than just the carbs, and this is crucial. Because of the other health risks associated with dry food (explained prior), it is really best to avoid it if you can. Dry food is a convenience and hard to give up, but I think you'll find that if you just try a few tricks (frozen food, auto feeders) low carb canned food is just as easy to feed and so much healthier for the cat. As someone who fed dry food for most of my cat's lives and having a very busy schedule, I understand the temptation of a food you can free-feed when you're not home or in bed. But getting (and keeping) your cat healthy and in remission will do far more to help things out in terms of convenience. And I would give anything to be able to go back in time, learn all this stuff 10 years ago, and feed both my cats a healthy diet and not have had to deal with the diabetes and kidney disease in the first place.

    And yes, there are a lot of bad canned foods. That's why we read the ingredient labels and consult the nutrition charts. However, low carb canned foods are inherently low glycemic because of the way they are processed, and dry foods are not. And canned foods do not cause chronic dehydration that leads to other unhealthy and life threatening conditions.

    That's my final take on the subject here, if I haven't convinced anybody by now with the science of the matter, I'm never going to.
     
  49. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    It is such a tough decision. I only want to feed the dried food because she is losing weight. She only likes the canned straight out of the can. :|

    I grew up on a farm, have always had animals and have probably had 60 cats throughout my life. This is the first with diabetes and none have had kidney problems. I may just take the risk and keep an eye on her bg so that she gains the weight back.
     
  50. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Lucy, if your cat isn't eating the canned food and you've tried a variety, then my advice is to supplement with some dry that at least has some reasonable ingredients. Is it perfect? no, but nothing in the world is perfect and your cat needs to eat :)
     
  51. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
    Thanks for the support Jen. ;)
     
  52. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Post deleted by author.
     
  53. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

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    Sandman, not sure what your issues are but why don't you keep to advice and leave the editorializing alone? nobody is going to ban you, this isn't YDC.
     
  54. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
    I hate to admit that when we had 40 cats on the farm (people always dump cats in the country) we actually fed them dried dog food. My parents didn't want to take them to the pound where they would be euthanized but they couldn't afford that much cat food. Why is cat food so much more expensive than dog food? We had 22 cats when we moved to Scottsdale, AZ. Good thing we had horse property there. :|
     
  55. Sandman

    Sandman Guest

    Whatever. I'm outta here.

    Good luck, Lucy.
     
  56. squeem3

    squeem3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Lucy, have you tried my suggestion of freeze dried raw food and canned food? You could feed canned food with extra water added when you are home and leave the (dry) crunchy freeze dried raw food out when you are not home. Use Stella and Chewy's brand of freeze dried raw. There are other brands out there but they are either supplemental foods only or are ridculously expensive (like Primal Pet at nearly $40 for a 12 oz bag :shock: ).

    Do you think your cat will go for raw food? That's another option you can explore. You can buy a commercial brand, make your own using a recipie (like the one at Catinfo.org), or do a sort of semi-homemade by using a pre-mix (TC Instinct, Alnutrin, etc) with raw meats of your choice.

    Iams MaxCal canned formula may help give your cat the calories she needs so she doesn't get too skinny.

    I'm not sure. I do know that with the Nature's Variety Instinct canned foods, you can feed the dog forumlas to a cat. NV uses the same exact formula for dogs and cats. The dog formulas come in bigger sized cans which are more economical for multi cat households and don't cost much more than a can of cat formula.
     
  57. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    as long as there is sufficient taurine
     
  58. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Give canned kitten food a shot, then. It'll have higher energy availability for growth. I think the Fancy Feast Kitten Turkey and Giblets might work. Cat's body's can break down both fats and proteins to yield carbohydrates as needed.
     
  59. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
    I have tried freezedried raw in the past. I can't remember the brand but she wouldn't eat it. :(
     
  60. MommaOfMuse

    MommaOfMuse Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Now that her bloodsugar is under control she will put weight back on...even on canned food...as BJM suggested if she needs to gain feed more or feed a higher calorie food such as kitten food. Both of my diabetics were adopted as diabetics...when Maxwell arrived he was barely over 10lbs and is a very big Maine Coon mix so he looked like a walking skeleton at 10lbs (ideal weight for him is 17lbs). In the beginning I was feeding him 3 (5.5oz) cans of friskies a day...now that he has been in remission for 2 years he eats 1.5 cans a day and maintains his proper weight of 16.5lbs. Same with my recent adoption Autumn she didn't weigh even 6lbs when I adopted her, she is still insulin dependent for now but same thing I fed her heavily in the beginning and 7 months later she tips the scale at 14lbs her ideal weight and now maintains on a little over 1 (5.5oz) can a day.

    Just like with people, need to lose weight eat less, need to gain weight eat more. You can even free feed the canned food, just add a little water to it and keep it away from a heat source such as the fridge or a heat vent and it will be fine left out up to 12 hours a day. When the dish is empty just refill, the only exception to that is you want to pick up the food about 2 hours before preshot tests to get a true, non-food influnenced reading. But other than that she can munch on canned food to her heart's content. You can even freeze canned food and put it out frozen for her to nibble on as it thaws for those times when you aren't going to be home, or to hold her overnight

    Mel, Maxwell, Autumn & The Fur Gang
     
  61. squeem3

    squeem3 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009

    Stella and Chewy's freeze dried raw for cats came out earlier this year. It won't hurt to give it a try. Buy one of those single serve pouches to see if your cat likes it or not so that you're not wasting money on a big bag. There are 6 different varieties that are diabetic-friendly. You can feed it as it, rehydrated in water, or sprinkled on top of canned food. See if your cat will eat straight from the fridge or slighly warmed up (few seconds in microwave) with the freeze dried raw on top.


    Yes, the NV formulas has enough of everything for cats :smile: The only difference is the labeling (for dogs or for cats) and the can sizes.
     
  62. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    Ok, so I just have to share that the young again zero carb arrived today. After barely touching her wet food all morning she is scarfing down the YA. She stepped right over the wet food for it. I know that dry food may not be ideal but I feel awful that she was losing weight because I was forcing her to eat the wet food (we tried every kind of wet food, my pantry is a wet food graveyard). I think that there isn't one right answer for everyone.

    Plus, the zero carb is high protein at 55% minimum. Her canned food is only 10% protein and she eats so little each day that I don't think she is getting her nutrients.

    Anyways, I am going to take my chances. I can't stand to watch her lose weight, she doesn't like canned food, raw food, or dried raw food. I have changed her diet a dozen times now. She loves the no carb, she can free feed off of it, I am going with it.

    She is still eating! I haven't seen her eat this much in weeks.
     
  63. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    How're you doing the math on that?

    Its dry weight in grams for each of protein, carbohydrate and fat, times calories per gram (3.5 each protein and carbohydrate; 8.5 calories per gram for fat). Sum the total calories. Now take the percent of total calories from each of protein fat and carb

    ie
    calories from protein / total calories = % calories from protein
    calories from fat / total calories = % calories from fat
    calories from carbohydrate / total calories = % calories from carbohydrate
     
  64. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    I didn't do any math, I just looked at the labels (10% protein on canned, 55% on young again).

    I really appreciate everyone's support in these forums. However, I have to make my own decision on this. I have never seen her like a food this much. She is old, skinny, and hates the wet food. I am going to let her enjoy her final meals....
    Heather
     
  65. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    Then the 55% isn't comparing apples to apples. You're comparing a dry food vs a wet food, without adjusting for the water content, plus you're doing it on weight, not % calories from source. We evaluate diets based on the % calories from carbohydrates, not the weight, and after the water content has been accounted for.

    You do need to do what works; you also need to be clear about what you're actually doing, though, so you don't make an error.
     
  66. Elizabeth and Bertie

    Elizabeth and Bertie Well-Known Member

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    Sep 6, 2010
    Lucy, the most important thing is that your cat eats. OK, dry food isn't 'ideal' but, if I had your cat, who knows, maybe I would come to exactly the same conclusions - and decision - that you have.

    Here's hoping that this food enables your cat to put on some much needed weight. But do keep an eye on her BG levels and water intake.

    (((Hugs))) to you. I know this hasn't been an easy decision for you to make.
     
  67. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
    Thanks for your support Elizabeth, it is very kind of you. She is STILL EATING! This shows me that she hasn't been eating when she is hungry, poor thing. I will keep an eye on her numbers. They have been rising anyways so it will be hard to tell if the food is causing it or if it was happening anyways.
     
  68. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    Stubborn kitties wadderyagonnado? Ya gotta do what ya gotta do, thats what. :/
    Sending best wishes,
    jeanne
     
  69. Lucy

    Lucy Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2012
    BJM, what error are you speaking of? At this point I think my error has been letting her waste away due to what is beginning to feel like dogma. She is boney, and apparently hungry.
     
  70. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    People here really want whats best for your kitty, honest. They're not just followers of dogma.
    Hang onto the canned food you have. Once your kitty is back to feeling better, give it a try again. I DONT mean instead of the dry just offer it with the dry, just to see if she changes (just a suggestion). It could happen. We're not trying to starve your kitty OR put you down ok?
    ECID...Every cat is different.
    jeanne
     
  71. Lucy

    Lucy Member

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    Nov 11, 2012
    I'm sorry JT, I was referring to BJM's comment about an error that I might make. I really don't think of the kind folks here on the forums as followers of dogma. It is just difficult when you agonize over the right decision, then you hear arguments against it. I do appreciate your comments.
     
  72. jt and trouble (GA)

    jt and trouble (GA) Well-Known Member

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    Dec 28, 2009
    I totally understand and know what you are going through. Please kkep us updated ok?
    j.
     
  73. BJM

    BJM Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2010
    As I did note, eating comes first.

    That being said, when my dad was doing chemical marketing research, he investigated cat foods on one of his projects. They told him cats would eat sawdust if it had the right fats on it. So the fact a cat is eating it may just mean they've got the right flavor enhancers on it, not that it is particularly nutritious.

    And dry food is just that - dry. I've had several cats over the years with renal disease, before I knew about the long-term impact of dry foods on many, if not most, cats. It was heartbreaking to watch them be slowly poisoned by their body's inability to remove toxins (and they need more water to do it, the worse the kidneys become), become more and more uremic (you can smell the urine on their breath when they are end stage), losing weight, starting to vomit because of the uremia, and when they stopped eating, having to euthanize them.

    Renal disease is a known complication of diabetes; anything you can do to reduce that risk is worth it. Please Keep working on the wet or raw foods trials, following the transitioning ideas from Dr Pierson's site.

    At least learning how to do subcutaneous insulin injections partially trains you to do subcutaneous fluid injections. should you ever need them (dehydration can occur from numerous conditions including DKA, hyperthyroidism, renal disease, diarrhea, vomiting, and more)
     
  74. j_o

    j_o Member

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    Nov 30, 2012
    Lucy I understand completely where you are coming from I have the same problem in this house kitty that will NOT eat an all wet diet she will starve herself before she will give in. She has CRF so it really isn't ideal for her but what are you going to do? We feed her the best possible food we can find and offer her a buffet of wet food in hopes that she will like one of them today we also give her raw which she will inhale on somedays and walk away from on others. You have to do what is right for your cat and food no matter what is what is right.
     
  75. Jen & Squeak

    Jen & Squeak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2009
    I think it is great that she is eating, dry or not.

    I think BJM's point is that if you are reading the labels and comparing numbers you aren't getting the true picture.
    If you are comparing guaranteed analysis vs as fed vs whatever other method, you might be making an error in judging which has more protein.

    Jen
     
  76. lynn and bear (ga)

    lynn and bear (ga) Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2009
    Just wanted to say I would probably have come to the same decision if I were in your shoes. This disease has so many different facets that juggling them all can be very challenging. One day at a time, great day today - you got her to eat!
     

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