New to ProZinc & Home Testing

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wendiz23

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Hi my Smokey was diagnosed about 2 years ago with diabetes. He was put on Humilin N till his numbers started to stay the same with an increased dosage every visit and he continuously kept losing weight. The vet decided to change him to Prozinc this January and kept him on the same dosage he was on with Humilin N, which I thought wasn't smart but she is the vet so I listened to her (dumb me). Well a month after having him on the ProZinc he went into 2 low dose episodes in 3 days so we decided we had to automatically lower dose and get a home testing kit (also thanks to feline diabetes friends on Facebook!). We had him on 1 unit twice a day for a week and jotted his numbers down and they seemed to stay put at 250's to 500's all times of day so we have increased his insulin to 2 units twice a day to see what happens this week. So far it's looking good we got a reading yesterday at 5 hours after insulin which was 112 so it seems to be okay for now. Me & my boyfriend's schedules are complicated and we are having a hard time getting 2 hour readings so we have been doing them as much as possible. I would like to know if theres anyone out there who could help me chart it and find out if what we have done so far seems right and we are making progress. Is there a chart that I can print out somewhere by chance? Any suggestions would be appreciated & thank you in advance. If you need more information please let me know.

Smokes episodes were weekend of 2/10/2012 so we took him off insulin on 2/12/2012 and bought a home testing kit.
We took his blood that night at 10:45pm and reading was 375.
Here's the start to the week and forward:

2/13- (Busy day very late for second shot)
7:45am before food 282 (1 unit)
9:30pm before food (1 unit)

2/14-
7:30am before food 349 (1 unit)
11:30am 135
7:30pm before food 403 (1 unit)

2/15-
8:00am before food 404 (1 unit)
6:00pm before food 424 (1 unit)

2/16-
7:45am before food 366 (1 unit)
6:00pm before food 374 (1 unit)
12:15am 338

2/17-
7:30am before food 451 (1 unit)
5:45pm before food 419 (1 unit)

2/18-
7:30am before food 413 (1 unit)
1:00pm 236
7:15pm before food & hard test taking episode 556 (1 unit)
11:15pm 264

2/19-
8:00am before food 348 (1 unit)
12:30pm 297
5:15pm before food 413 (1 unit)

2/20-
8:00am before food 292 (2 units)
5:45pm before food 376 (2 units)
9:00pm 212
11:30pm 275

2/21-
8:00am before food 502 (2 units)
6:15pm before food 342 (2 units)
11:15pm 112

2/22-
8:00am before food 406 (2 units)

I hope this isn't too confusing for whose ever reading it!

Thank you,
Wendi, Mark (boyfriend, dad & tester), Smokey & Tommy (Smokey's brother) confused_cat
 
Welcome Everyone!

Yes, we have a great color coded spreadsheet

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18207. It's a little tricky. If you need help, ask.

This is a wonderful friendly group. Most people are on in the early am (east coast) and pm. We are not as big or active as Health, so if you need immediate help, post on Health also.

What do you feed? What kind of treats? Maybe we can manipulate the food.

Yes, it is hard to get those mid cycle numbers. Some people here get out the door tests, in the door tests, before bed and even an alarm in the middle of the night every so often. Any weekend when you can do a complete curve is invaluable. Once that chart fills up, even random numbers on random days, it helps complete the picture.
 
Glad you made it to the message board! I'm on my flight right now but will check back as soon as I can. People will chime in soon, ok. Get your spread sheet together.
 
Hi and Welcom to you and your gang.

Come around and ask whatever questions you have.

Sue can help you get your spreadsheet set up.

Looking forward to getting to know you.
 
Welcome to PZI land,
Looking forward to getting to know you all
and please ask as many questions as you like
We are all here for you!

Denise and Shakes
 
You are almost there with the spreadsheet.

Go back to your original copy. Over on the right hand side choose Share and Share with Anyone with the Link.

Then go over to the left under File and choose Publish to the Web. Use that url with the "pub" in the middle to paste into your signature.

The one with the "cc" in the middle is your copy to keep in your favorites.
 
Yes, it worked!

He is doing pretty well. I like the blues at night but even the daytime numbers aren't bad. If it is food that is different at night, that could possibly help bring the day numbers down. For instance, if he doesn't eat at night, it might be that he is very carb sensitive. So you might limit the meals to am and pm and a noon snack and see if that makes a difference. If he snacks at night, maybe there is a way to duplicate that in the day with frozen pucks of wet food or an automatic feeder.

Sometimes they just go down at night and we can't find any answers there, but it is something to consider.
 
I have 2 cats and both get fed twice a day, always before both of Smokey's shots. Of course the food sits in there all day because they don't finish it right away but it's usually consumed within 4 hours of feeding. Smokey had been eating regular Science Diet food before he was diagnosed with diabetes at this time he was 21 lbs. The vet had decided to put him on Science Diet M/D which he reused to keep eating and she was getting scared cause he was rapidly losing weight so she recommended I put him back on the food he had been eating to get his weight back up again before doing anything else. Since then he has been on Science Diet Indoor Formula but I've decided to try him out on their new Ideal Balance Formula they just came out with. It's hard with the feeding cause they both eat differently and I hate to change it for one and not the other. nailbite_smile
 
Gosh. I think Science Diet is what gave Oliver diabetes. Those foods tend to run in the 25-35 % carb range. We try to stay under 8-10%. Have you seen Janet and Binky's charts? http://binkyspage.tripod.com/dryfood.html These are the dry charts, but have a link to the wet to compare.

This is a great website by a vet that explains why wet food is so much better for all cats than dry, but especially diabetics.http://www.catinfo.org

If you could change the food, it is possible that he wouldn't need insulin. If he is getting blue numbers on dry food, this is fairly scary. Picture his body getting all those carbs and the insulin fighting it. It's like a human diabetic eating doughnuts and taking insulin to counteract the carbs.

Would you be willing to try to change their food? Both of them can eat wet low carb. (If you decide to do this, I would reduce the insulin way down until you see what impact the food makes.) When we switched Oliver from Science Diet light to Fancy Feast, he went down 100 points overnight.
 
When they were kittens they were both on Iams and I didn't like the ingredients in it so I decided to give them a change with Science Diet. I would love to switch them both to a wet food but with not having a job, the cost of insulin, vet bills from over time (CareCredit) & all the diabetes supplies it's hard to think of that in my budget. Is wet food bad for the teeth though, I've heard & read? I thought 100-200 was a good number, I am so lost with feline diabetes. I wish my vet paid more attention to my questions.....ggggrrrrrr
 
yes, 100-200 are good numbers. That's why they make me nervous with the insulin and dry food.

The vet site I sent you about food debunks the wet food/teeth thing. I like the analogy of saying it would be like saying chewing crunchy cookies would help your teeth. And I am pretty sure I have read cats don't actually chew - they sort of swallow stuff whole.

We have lots of people on a budget who feed wet. I know Teresa does - I'll send her by. She buys in bulk. You can get Friskies in the big cans. And they eat less wet. Oliver was a chubby 16 pound Maine Coon who grazed on Science Diet all day. Within 6 months of changing, he was down to a normal 13 pounds and off insulin.
 
I forgot to mention since Smokey was diagnosed with the diabetes he has went from 21 lbs to around 10 1/2-11 lbs. now. My other cat has stayed about the same over the years at 17 lbs. LOL but he doesn't have diabetes.

So which wet food do you recommend that is cheap & good, I know some foods they say are like Hostess to people because of ingredients?

So your saying if he was on a lower carb food and this amount of insulin his number would be way lower? Sorry I'm so confused I spent about $5000-6000 with my vet and I guess I learned nothing, makes me sick!

Thanks!
 
It is really hard to get advice contrary to your vet. They usually get their nutrition classes from Purina and get one workshop on FD during their training. Often when people ask how many diabetic cats they have treated, they say one or two. We see at least 10 new diabetic cats on this site, daily. And it is hard for them. They have to know about many diseases in lots of species -from an ulcer in a rat to stomach issues in a bird. We do FD cats only.

That's why I really respect Dr. Lisa and refer so many people to her website. She is a FD specialist and has spent years figuring out how this works. We bascially use a protocol that she approves of - small amounts of insulin based on hometesting and wet lo carb food.

Re Hostess - check out the Science Diet ingredients. Cats are carnivores. They eat meat. There are only grains in the dry food products. Yes, foods like Fancy Feast and Friskies have meat by products. But, one it's meat. And two, they eat mice in the wild very successfully. A few byproducts there..... Never see those kitties out in the fields crunching down on that wheat. :mrgreen:

I sent Teresa a message and asked if she would come by and tell you about budget feeding wet. Watch for her post.

I don't want all your info to be from me and our forum is pretty quiet this am. If you want to, go over to Health and ask about dry vs wet. You will get lots of good information from a lot of different voices. There are also lots of people on a budget feeding wet who can give you ideas.
 
Will do & thanks!

I actually just picked up a bag of Science Diet's new Ideal Balance which supposedly the first ingredient is real chicken not by-product but I wanted to try cause it was free after rebate. I also picked up a few cans of Science Diet as well...dang it! LOL
 
Good Morning!

First Welcome to PZI. My name is Kim and my cat is Kitty!

I am really glad you found us, because it is very scary and encouraging that Smokey is getting 100 and 200 BG readings while on dry food. The carbs in dry food are very high and that increases blood sugars dramatically. You mention the cost of wet food, BUT with a change to wet food, you very well could have a kitty that could go off of insulin. There are very many cats that are diet controlled diabetics (no insulin, just the proper food).

I would encourage you to give the dry food up and switch to wet-- the increased cost of the wet, could very well be offset by the savings in the insulin, vet visits etc that the dry food's carbs possibly are creating. There is no guarantee that a diet change will get Smokey off of insulin-- but it is a very good possibility. Most cats that I have seen come to PZI on dry food--stay in the 400s and 500s and never come down into good numbers like Smokey.

When/If you change Smokey to wet food, you need to be VERY careful-- as you could see dramatic decreases in BGs immediately and at anytime. You need to make the change slowly-- mix wet and dry until you can see what is happening.

I am heading out the door, but will revisit your thread later today.

Good Luck!
 
Greetings, welcome to PZiville, and all that good jazz! cat_pet_icon

Diabetes on a budget, how well I know that tune! :lol: My DH's work is very sensitive to the economy so we know well the tightening budget, and then to throw having Poopy diagnosed with diabetes on top of that...we had to get pretty darn creative with our budget to accommodate the changes in bills. :lol:

There's a lot of foods out there that are good for our babies that are low in carb, which is what we want to help with the diabetes - low carb. Aiming for under 10% is great, and some aim for even lower. There are some folks who think "by-products" are pretty bad...but if you stop to think, "What does a cat eat when given a chance?" you'd realize they eat the whole critter they catch (bird, mole, mouse, small snakes), except for the fur/feathers. Now, we, as humans, aren't real interested in eating "by-products" (yet we eat stuff like hot dogs and bologna). Bottom line, cat food made with by-products is not "bad" for our kitties. Corn, wheat, rice, and all that grain stuff is not good for our kitties (ever see a cat eat any grain other than grass to throw up a hairball?).

Since I'm on such an extreme budget crunch, I feed my babies Special Kitty and Sopisticats (PetSmart is changing the name to something else - and I only buy it when on sale and cheaper than Special Kitty). A 13 oz. can feeds both kitties for the morning, and another can at night for dinner. Since I pay .70 a can, that's about $1.60 a day (including taxes). Way cheaper than prescription foods and actually better for them as the carbs are under 10% for the flavors I get. If you'd like to check out a food list, I have the link to Janet and Binky's list in my signature.

So why is food so important? If we can switch our babies (I switched both Poopy and his civvie sister Mia) to a low carb wet food, we decrease the amount of carbs they are eating. There have been many cats that have gone without insulin after switching to low carb wet! I don't dare to dream that can happen for Poopy, as his numbers are much higher than Smokey's, but it just may be possible for your kitty. :-D

Be sure to ask any questions you may have. We are all here to help each other's kitties. :-D
 
Hello there Wendy, Mark, Smokey, and Tommy

It is always difficult when you need to make changes in the diet of your furry kids. When Sneakers was diagnosed I got a list of canned food and was paying $1.70 for Blue Buffalo and Wellness Grain Free. Then I found out Fancy Feast and Friskies, and Whiskers had canned foods low in carbs that I could feed my cat- and the price was much better as well.

At first Smokey is going to eat alot but eventually it will slow down. I didn't realize how much until Sneakers started sneaking in some kitty krack contraband (dry cat food) from a neighbor and not only did her numbers go up, she was drinking a lot more and had pee pats the size of a salad plate once again. I've nipped that in the bud by keeping her inside all day while I'm gone- but it has taken almost a week for her to get back to her working for regulation normal with lower numbers yet again.

Finances are a big part of what I buy. I am lucky that I have a hobby and can do projects to make extra money to support Sneakers in her new diabetic journey. Every little bit helps.

Heather
 
Okay I'm listening to everyone and I am going to take your advice and give them both wet once I get to the store and purchase some. I know this won't be a hard change cause they both LOVE wet food anyway. Should I also start at a no insulin or very low insulin injection when I do switch over?
I do however ask though that someone help me better understand what you mean by his blue numbers and high carbs and why it scares you, hope this doesn't sound like I'm stupid but I am really lost as to why.
Thanks again!
 
If he's already getting such good numbers (blue) on high carb food, he may drop really fast when you switch--may even go OTJ. You just need to keep an eye out and not be surprised.
 
OTJ= off the juice or off insulin

Many cats who come here eating really high carb food and are changed to wet, go off insulin really fast. It's basically the food that gave them diabetic numbers. We don't know if your kitty will do that.

If I were you, I would experiment to make sure that he will eat the wet food. If he does with no problems, I would stop the shots for that day. Give all wet food. Keep track of his numbers and see what happens. Do it on a day when you will be around and can test.

It may be that you have to start insulin again at real tiny doses. Maybe not.

Normally we would probably say you could give wet food, watch the numbers and still give the insulin. But since he had such good numbers on really high carb food, we are a little nervous.
 
I am certain that someone can explain this better than me...but, here goes my attempt!

The high numbers you are seeing are because Smokey is eating high carb food and the pancreas is not working properly. The carbs create the sugar in the body. So, if you were feeding lower carb food, Smokey would not be getting as high of BG readings. Dry food is very high in carbs (>25) -- if you switch to wet low carb food (<5-7), you will not see these high numbers. You might still see "diabetic" numbers-- greater than 120/150, but you would not see 400s. And, with lower numbers, you might have enough pancreatic function left to make enough insulin to support Smokey.

BUT, if you switch the food totally at once...and keep shooting your normal dose-- you could create a Hypo situation. I have never seen a cat on dry food come down into the "blue" numbers with low doses of insulin, like Smokey is doing. They normally just stay in higher numbers, even with insulin.

So, the reason it is scary is because you MUST be careful with your diet change. You need to change the food slowly and monitor the blood glucose levels. Hypos can kill cats and you need to be aware of the dramatic change in blood glucose levels that can occur when you switch the food.

I would suggest starting out by replacing 1/3 of the dry with wet...then 1/2 etc.... As you do this, test, test, test and post your results. We will help you!

OTJ--Off the Juice! Off Insulin! That is the ulitimate goal and does happen with kitties. Some cats can go OTJ with a diet change. And, I would say Smokey is a good candidate for that to happen!

Does this make any sense? Just keep asking questions!
 
I like Sue's suggestion-- once you know he will eat the wet-- give wet only for a day and NO insulin. Then see what happens with the numbes. It normally takes a few days to clear all of the carbs created by the dry food, but a one day trial will give you an indication of what the dry is creating. If you do stop giving insulin--even for a day-- Check for ketones. You can buy urine ketone strips from any local pharmacy or Walmart. They are Cheap and are good to always use, but especially when stopping insulin.
 
Good lord I hope I didn't give my poor Smokey "diabetes" with the IAM's & Science Diet I've been feeding him his whole life & I've never checked my other boy for it. Smokey had signs 2 summers ago when he was walking flat on his hocks & he always had a sensitive back by his tail when it was touched in a certain area. My other boy Tommy has always been a porker but I love them both no matter what! ;-P

I wanna add to if nobody knew Smokey was on Humilin N till December 2011 & was on almost 6 units twice a day till he was switched over to ProZinc once his numbers topped changing with Humilin N but she kept him on 5 units twice a day & Smokey ended up going into 2 hypo episodes in 3 days so I automatically took him to 1 unit twice a day. I was so upset with my vet especially when I kept repeating to her you want me to switch insulin & keep him on the same dose? I was shocked!
 
I would say 90% of the people here fed dry food before diabetes so there does have to be a correlation. How could we not? Purina has a lot of money to spend on those beautiful ads!


The important thing is that you are going to change.

Either Kim's or my suggestion will work. She is right. Be sure to test for ketones.
 
Don't feel any grief..."You" didn't give Smokey Diabetes! Some cats eat dry their entire lives and never develop diabetes, so the food alone did not create the diabetes.

Your situation makes sense to me-- Smokey was on extremely high doses, because the insulin was needed to control all of the carbs being fed. If he was on wet food and getting that high of a dose, we would consider other contributing factors. Most kitties on wet food, do not need 5 to 6 units of insulin without underlying factors twice a day...I said "most"--- mine did!

Then consider that Smokey didn't eat as much one day to create the higher bg...and you shot the 5 or 6 units-- Hypo!

Things will get better...Good Luck!
 
So is the best suggestion for canned food Fancy Feast Classic or is there another type, my boys only like chicken & turkey in their food but I will try some beef again and see what happens! ;P
 
I feed Fancy Feast Classics, but that is not the only choice. See if this link will work for you...this is a link to Janet and Binkys food chart. Look at the canned foods-- I only feed foods less than 5 percent carb, and less if possible. But, many feed less than 7 percent carb. Special Kitty from Walmart, Friskies...all have foods that are low carb.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/canfood.html
 
So which Classics do you get, like I said they've always preferred Chicken & Turkey and the don't like the chunky stuff just minced!
 
and I forgot to ask I shouldn't just switch I should mix like suggested? I only ask cause these guys would much rather have wet food anyway if they had the choice. Sorry to ask so many question's but I'm having a hard time scrolling.
 
Never too many questions. When you open your thread, pick "First unread post". That will get you down to the newest post .

Either way will work. Kim's is probably the most cautious as you can change slowly, be sure they are eating okay and watch the numbers carefully. And cautious is good early on in this sugar dance.
 
It's the pate you want. It's called Fancy Feast Claasic and comes in lots of different flavors. Any are fine. Some cats have trouble with the beef. You also don't want to feed seafood only - limit to a couple times a week. It has mercury and phosphorous and just like with people, shouldn't be a steady diet.
 
Is Kim Kse by chance and are ou talking about her post at 9:09am?

Neither of my cats really like seafood anyway so I assume that's a good thing. I will just start with the chicken & turkey for now, they will be excited to hear the wet food cans opening no matter what it is! ;P
 
So my picky Smokey will not eat the dry with the wet so I gave a\the whole 3.3 oz. can of wet food to him. I am guessing I should back off a shot tonight & check his number in about an hour then and see whats going on? Thanks!
 
Well, it is good to see that he has good taste! Some people here spent weeks getting their cats off the dry.

The carb count on the dry was so high that I do think I would skip tonight, get a few tests in and then see what he looks like in the am. It won't give you a complete picture but maybe an idea.
 
Oh no these boys love wet food, I used to give them a "treat" of it in Science Diet brand LOL They love the sound of the can opening!
 
So far at 6pm we tested him & t was 419. He ate & 1 1/2 hours later he tested 454. Any suggestions or keep testing?
 
It probably will, at least, take several hours, so I would relax awhile. The dry has to get out of his body.

Did you get the ketone strips to test for ketones?
 
Well we weren't able to buy keytone strips because the only box available the seal was broke on the box but we have gotten a few numbers so far tonight. Also I hope a 3.3 ounce can of Fancy Feast sufficient enough for him 2 times a day.
We pretested at 6pm tonight and had a reading of 419 then we fed & no shot was given, then around 7:30pm we did another test and it read 454 and the next reading we got at10:30 pm was 375. We will try to get one more for the night before bed. Any thoughts so far on this?
 
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