Loki

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=89516

Hi it makes a lot of sense now Sue, sorry I am I think a little slow sometimes, my excuse is that I so want to do the right thing for my boy. Will recheck him at +2 and +3.
Can I use an automatic feeder with wet food? And will he adapt? How about my other 2 cats will they also try to get to his feeder? I hate to lock him up just so they do not get to him for a long time.
Next time I see a blue # or green will test with no food at +2 is that right?
Thanks

Got it! I know you are worried about him and this seems all so overwhelming.

Some people freeze the food for the feeder - I put the Fancy Feast in a silicone cupcake pan, freeze and then plop out and store in a plastic bag in friz. But you don't need to. It wouldn't go bad overnight. I love my PetSafe5. There are 5 places to put food and you can set it for any pattern you want. So with the other cats, you might be able to have the second slot open pretty soon after the first. Even if everyone gobbles up the first, Loki should be able to get some out of the second. It's about taking the edge off their hunger so they aren't so hungry at preshot time.

Thanks Sue for the info, the feeder looks great but the issue with Loki also is that he is allergic to plastic, he brakes out in small pimples on his chin from any plastic dish. Will keep looking though and hope there is a non plastic one out there.

Just did his +2 and he is up to 356 +2.

The 365 is because the food pushed up the numbers, but the insulin hasn't started to kick in and push them back down. The food had a "head start" this morning.

Carl

Some people have found glass bowls that fit into the spaces. You might ask on Health.

At +3 he is at 359, so if I understand right the insulin is kicking in. Will recheck at +6.

+6 # not much better he is at 327, will do a +9 also. Do you think I should do a +8 also?
:sad:

My guess is that he went lower overnight and today's cycle is his version of a bounce - kind of high and flat. Some night when you can't sleep, get some tests in in the +5 - 8 range. There are cats whose numbers are consistently lower at night than during the day. He does seem to go long on cycles in the daytime, rather than low. Night time might be different (or not :mrgreen: )

Just checked him because he was not really himself, he was aggressive with the 2 other cats, he is very hungry so he is eating now and his # 171 +11 1/2.
I know I have a no shoot at 200 but with the food he is eating I figure 1/2 unit would not hurt plus I am home all night to watch him and retest if I have to.
Please let me know what you think.
Thanks
**** Just added rechecked him at 1/2 hr after eating and he went up to 285+12, so I did give him his 1/2 unit anyway since it was his PMPS time.
I wish I had a formula to know what to give with what numbers :YMSIGH: At least he is nice to the other 2 cats now.

.5 should be fine. You do want to be careful shooting after feeding. It has worked out okay so far, but one of these times he could crash. It's not a good practice. Did you try feeding him at +10? That should get him to +12 without starving.

We can ask Robin about a sliding scale, but she may feel your data is too limited yet. She needs some patterns to base her doses on.

Hi Sue yes I did feed him at +10 and and then rechecked him 30 minutes later which is when I saw the 285. I was so scared that in 30 minutes he went up that high from 171 to 285 that I gave him his 1/2 unit for the night. I know he will be off tomorrow at AMPS so I will check him at the +12 tomorrow morning. Oh boy I hope this makes sense? I was so nervous at the 114 point climb. nailbite_smile
I can feel it I will never be able to get him to only 2 checks per day and 2 shots per day. I return to college (yes at my age) in April. And will be out of the house most days and some evenings. This is why I wanted to start this early but I am not seeing it happening. Makes me feel like I am failing him, he so deserves better than this. :cry:

Michelle,
The 114 point increase was caused for the most part by the food, and not because his BG level was climbing up on it's own. So it wouldn't be surprising to see.

You are NOT failing him!

Carl

I'm sorry. I know it is frustrating that he seems to be bouncing around. But he is just moving between .5 and one unit. Look back at your spreadsheet. There were a lot of reds. Now you are seeing yellows and blues. He is doing better.

April gives us a month. Look at how things have changed in the last month.

I think the secret of this for you is the food - getting him to eat small meals away from that 2 hour window before preshots. If you can do that, you have the flexibility to wait the 20 minutes and shoot the usual dose.

Did you see my idea about getting glass dishes to fit inside the automatic feeder?

Oh Sue thanks for being so patient and kind with me. (We need a pulling hair smiley) for me LOL.
Let me see if I get this right. I should feed him 2 hrs before his BG check? If this is so, do I get up 2 hrs prior to his AMPS? The PMPS is no issue right now, he can be fed 2 hrs prior to those, and if I have to I will get up 2 hrs earlier in the AM for his feeding time.
I must have missed your post on the glass dishes, going to find it now. Thanks again. Should I recheck him tonight do you think? he is at +2 from his PMPS shot right now.

Yes, my thought is that, if the auto feeder works, you can set it for 2.5 or 3 hours before you plan to test in the morning. Then you set it so it switches to an empty slot once it is less than 2 hours before. He eats, so he isn't starving at amps and you have time to get a good number to shoot. Because you have more than one cat, it might take some tweaking. Maybe open the feeder a couple times overnight so everyone gets something to snack on. (adding water to the food will help fill them up without over feeding)

I would check before bed just to get some more data.

Ok Just check and not surprising his +3 after PMPS is 344, will see if I can stay awake 3 more hrs or set the alarm for +6.
Will update in the am either way.
Thanks for sticking by me yet again.

I'm going to take a stab at the whole "test/feed/shoot" thing.

You can feed Loki as many times a day as you want to. You can feed him any time, day or night, except for the two hour period prior to his AMPS and PMPS test.

Those are the two tests per day that you want to get a number that is "free" from any food-induced increase in BG.

When you feed him, it is perfectly natural for the BG to increase. Once he starts digesting the food, he turns it into "glucose" so that his body can absorb the glucose and use it to provide energy to make everything work. It takes about two hours for that to happen. After that time, if his pancreas were working normally (i.e. if he wasn't diabetic and all systems were functioning correctly), his BG would have dropped back down to "normal" levels. In a non-diabetic cat, it probably happens even more quickly.

You do NOT have to wake up two hours before AMPS and feed him. What you really want to do is this.

Wake up just before AMPS. Make sure he hasn't eaten for at least two hours. That will give you a "fasting" BG number. It's what it really is, free of any influence from eating. Then you test his BG. That number is the number that will tell you if it's okay to give the shot. And it might even determine how big or small a dose you give him.

After you get that test, you have a choice to make. Is it high enough to give his normal dose? If so, then you feed him, and give him his shot right after, or while he's eating.

If the number is high enough to shoot, but you don't feel comfortable giving a full dose, you have two choices.
1- reduce the dose. Feed him, and then give him the reduced dose right after, or while he is eating.
2- stall. Do not feed. Do not shoot. Wait 30 minutes and test again. If it comes up on it's own, then you can feed, and shoot the normal dose, or a reduced dose, depending on what the meter shows you.

If the AMPS test gives you a number that is too low to shoot -
You have two choices.
1- stall without shooting (go through the steps 1 and 2 above)
2 - skip the shot completely.

The really important thing to remember is to not feed until you are ready to give the shot. You want the food, and the insulin, to be working on the same schedule. You don't want to give either of them a "head start". Although the way they work is "against each other", you want them doing that at the same time.

We usually say "test, feed, and shoot" in that order. But all three of those things should happen in the span of just a few minutes.

Does that help?

Carl

Hello, Day 8 I think
Loki's AMPS 261 so I gave him 1/2 unit. Carl I sent you a PM last night sent it from my kindle so I hope it got to you.
Carl, also choose Option 1 for this morning from your post.
Thanks all

Looks good. Glad Carl figured out a way to give you a menu of choices. I think we need to consider if the dose for +200 but less than 300 should be a smidgen higher, but let's see how today goes.

At +6 he is 369. :YMSIGH: SS updated also

Let's see how it looks tonight. Often he has a long cycle and surprises us. No chance of a fur shot? I'll watch for your number at +11.5 or so - remember no food until we get to weigh in.

I fed him at 3 figuring he would be good till his +12, also have to go to a teacher conference tonight so may be late, not very late but still it may be over his +12 by a little while. No food till +12 or after depending on his PMPS.

Yes Michelle, got your PM and sent back a reply. If you sent a 2nd one, it didn't come through however.

Carl

Hi
PMPS this evening are at 255+12. I am going to give him 1 unit while he eats. Updated SS also.

Great choice, Michelle
The "plan I laid out last night, for today's AMPS, can be applied the same way for PMPS. You just avoid feeding for the two hours before PMPS, test, and base whether to shoot, or stall, or skip a on the number you get on the test.

With the 255 tonight, that was a safe number to shoot on. And I like your choice of one unit on that number.

Now that he's eating you can give the shot, and both the food and the insulin will be leaving the "starting line" at the same time.

Carl

Good morning:
AMPS this morning were 255 same as yesterday so I repeated the 1 unit and will see how his +6 is. I also wanted to add that since taking away the dry food(which I think he is finally getting used to) his coat is much better, soft and silky, not greasy looking at all. His poor ears though look sore even though I am using the antibiotic with pain ointment. He is still being very good about testing. I did order a timed feeder also.
See you at +6.

255 is good amps. Glad you went with the one unit. Now if we could get a nice drop at +6. Paws crossed.

Poor Oliver was a beautiful Maine Coon until he got diabetes. Before we switched foods and started insulin, he was shedding and covered with dandruff - just scruffy. After regulated and on wet food, he was gorgeous again!

Are you holding the ear for a few seconds after the poke? That helps. Also you can shoot both ears along that edge.

Hi all, +12 report Loki was 292 tonight so I gave him 1 unit (also fed him). Today got in late from a Dr's visit with a friend at +7 and I fed him then and he was 265+7. This AMPS was 255 and he also got 1 unit as he was eating. I am wondering since I am feeding him 3 times per day if this is why the #'s are staying in the 200 to almost 300's? I just got the automatic feeder but I am sure it will take him some time to get used to it. I cannot think of what else to do at this time for him. He is more satisfied now eating 3 times a day, always FF under 5 carbs. Will recheck him once more before bed to see where he is at in about 3 hrs which would put him at +3 PMPS.
Thanks again.

I am not sure why he is flat. Better to flat with yellows than pinks, but not quite the numbers we need. When did he eat in relation to the 265? His numbers are so influenced by food. Wonder if you tested him midcycle with no food for 2 hours, if he would be lower?

I'd say keep the dose another cycle or two and we can reevaluate.

Sue, he had 3oz each meal today and ate all.

I was wondering whether he ate around your +7 test. Wondering if that was part of the number?

Yes he did eat at that +7 check. Do you think this has messed him up? I hope not.

No, it's not that it messed him up. It's something to consider when we look at his numbers. If he ate 30-45 minutes before the test, it just might tell us that the number at +7 might have been a little higher than the number at +5 or +6. It's just part of the data collecting. He is a kitty whose numbers are higher with food, so we want to think about that when we look at his numbers in relation to when he eats.

Does that make sense?

Yes, Sue it makes perfect sense and he has always gone up in his #'s with food since day one. Thanks

If he ate AT the +7 test, then that number isn't food-inflated. If he ate 30-60 minutes before the test, then food is part of the number.

If he didn't eat just before you got the mid-cycle number, then that might indicate that the dose could be increased somewhat. One cycle doesn't tell you too much. But a similar pattern on the same dose, over two or three days, will suggest if the dose needs to be increased, decreased, or stay the same.

Carl