when is it ok to leave him?

Had a scare this morning. His reading this morning 5am was 69. I retested him at 7 and it was 38. Freaked out! Gave him treats, let him eat dry food. Dipped treats in syrup, he at those. Mixed a little in his wet food...he's eating that now. Tested him at 8 and it was up to 67 (and he practically gushed blood). I'll keep testing, but at what point is it safe to leave him and go to work?

 

We're holed up in the spare bathroom together so I can keep an eye on him. He has litter, water and a little left over wet food.

 

1. Is the 5am # his amps, did you give dose?
2. You want his BG above 50 first and foremost, giving dry will take longer to see a change in Bg.
3. Once over 50 you will want to test in 30min intervals and will need to see 2 rising numbers that are not influenced by food, food influence can can be in affect for 2 hrs.

 

Where are you in the cycle? +6 +7??

I am a newbie do can't advise but others have told me you need to get 2 rising numbers that aren't influenced by food.

It looks like he will be heading for a dose reduction but again others will advise.

If you aren't getting many replies post in the tight regulation forum and make sure you add either the ? Icon or a 911 if you are worried. Also I would edit. Your title to put in the numbers. Ie + 4 69, + 6 38 or whatever if was

Sarah

 

Have you been getting mid cycle numbers? I have looked at your spreadsheet and it seems your mainly testing before every shot.....which dont get me wrong is GREAT,but from what I read nadir is very important when determining dosage for lantus. 2 units seems a bit much to start out with especially looking at your evening bg's.

Also I seen a post you added on his SS about having trouble getting blood, are you warming the ear?

Now on to bg....make sure to test every 20 minutes. Unfortunately, I dont think its going to be safe to leave him for several hours to make sure he's not continuing to drop. If you must leave sooner you may have to look into taking him to the vet to make sure he's closely monitored.

 

I've updated the spreadsheet. He did not get his morning dose because the 69 reading at 5am and then the follow up at 7 of 38 freaked me out too much. I gave him the first syrup, food, treat combo around 7:30/7:45 ish. I've tested twice since then and both times the number went up. It sounds like-if I understand it correctly, that if my next toe readings are up he should be ok.

Can someone clarify this for me:
On BJMs (member) signature block she has a link to glucometer notes. I asked about it in my original thread but never got a specific answer. Should I be adding 17to whatever number shows on the glucometer? If so, which was do people keep their spreadsheets? With the number from the meter, or that number plus 17?

 

This is the link:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oI_ ... asic?pli=1

 

hi Jamie,

Most people use human glucometers, because it said in your signature you are using a human glucometer, people are aware of it, so no need to add anything. I can't advise when it's ok to leave him, if it was me I'd stay with him just in case.xx

 

From what I interpret about that she is explaining the difference in reading between a pet meter and human. I have never added any numbers to my relion numbers. I think its more so directed towards people that want to have both numbers handy for themselves or vets.

As to the bg still rising, without food. How long can you wait to go to work? My only concern is that you gave him dry food and it can take longer to break down in the system, which in my opinion (hopefully someone else will chime in) would cause a longer time frame for rising bg induced by food.

You a definitely due for a dose reduction though. Have you joined the lantus group?

 

Since the majority of us use human meter you Dont need to change anything, I believe bjm was just noting the differences between a human meter vs an animal calibrated meter.

 

I think that Charlie is getting too much insulin. I would immediately roll him back to 1 unit, and test religiously. 2 units is too high a starting dose for a newly diagnosed diabetic.

Also please be aware that he will likely "bounce" after this episode. Bouncing is when the liver releases glucose in response to a low BG episode, and the BG numbers bounce up high. Dont panic when you see this. Hold on and wait, he will come back down again.

 

I agree his dose is too high.

You didn't even give a shot this morning.
You are seeing the effect of the depot Here is information about the depot.
That is why we say your dose is too high.

 

You called it Linda. He's up to 490 at his +6.

I have to go to work My husband is at the vet with one of our dogs because she recently had surgery and the site didn't heal properly and now it's infected. $150 later....

When it rains, it pours

 

Hi Jamie

Well it looks like you did well to avert an emergency situation so well done to you. In order to decide how to proceed with Charlie dose wise I think it might be worthwhile posting over on either the tight regulation board or the relaxed lantus board. If you do a brief recap as to what has happened recently, Charlie's weight, etc and ask people to look at your spreadsheet they will be able to offer you some great advice. Of course posting here is always good too :smile:

From reading other threads it seems that cats can be more sensitive to insulin after their blood glucose readings go so low so you will want to be careful how you proceed.

 

What weight is Charlie?

Per the Tight Regulation Protocol, 2 IU of Lantus is the starting dose for a cat with an ideal weight of about 8kg (17.6 lbs).

 

The instructions for ProZinc state 1 unit 2X daily for a newly diagnosed diabetic. Even my cat with an initial blood sugar level of 600, only got 1 unit once per day for the first 5 days! Did you read the instructions that came with the insulin before you used it for the first time?

 

Unfortunately no, I did not read the instructions. I know. I feel like an idiot. I just went by what my vet told me. That Charlie would be getting 2 units twice a day.

There was a formula that someone gave me(on this board) that explained how much he should be getting at first. That formula indicated he should be getting less than what the vet recommended, but I thought I was doing the right thing by following the vet's advice.

On the 19th of October Charlie weighed 10.2 lbs. I can tell he's put some weight on since then, but I have no idea how much-we don't have a scale. In March he weighed about 12 lbs. I would guess that 11 or 11.5 lbs is his ideal weight. My plan is to give him 1.5 units tonight and tomorrow morning (provided his number isn't low again)...and then 1.25 for two doses and then down to 1. We haven't done a curve yet, so I have no idea what his nadir is. The earliest opportunity we would have to do a proper curve on him would be this coming Sunday.

 

Don't feel like an idiot. Heck, when Hidey was first diagnosed I was TOLD he was given Prozinc, I was CHARGED for Prozinc, and after about 2 weeks of crazy high numbers I realized it was VETSULIN!

We trust our vets, just like drs BUT they do not have all the answers and every case is different. I will not knock vets because they're still human lol and I truly do think their intentions are good.

I think the whole situation is just like humans. A dr can prescribe you something they think is right only you and your body know if the medication is right for you or if the dosage is too high or too low. It might have worked for someone else but not you. Its all trial and error.

Anyways, my point being dont be discouraged with your vet BUT listen to your gut as well. I hope you have a vet that will listen to your opinion as well.....unfortunately mine is not, and gave me this "who do you think you are" look....even after I took Hidey in with all his bg readings and in REMISSION! Oh, well lol.

Have you popped in the Lantus group? You may want to start lower and work your way up. 1.5 still seems a bit high, hopefully someone with more dosing advice on Lantus will pop in.

Also, GREAT job with monitoring those LOW numbers this morning ;-)

 

Your regular vet isn't a specialist in diabetes. They probably only had one class on diabetes for both dogs and cats.
Most vets are more familiar with canine diabetes , which is obvious to some of us because they will advise doses as if
they are giving canninsulin.

Lantus is different than canninsulin and a vet that isn't current with the latest research can sometimes advise poorly.
Vets also aren't used to people who are willing to work hard to keep their cat safe and their goal is usually just
regulation numbers, not remission.


I would ask that you revise your plan tonight.
I think you should start over at 1 unit , try to do a curve on Saturday as you said , and then you can go up or down from there.
The dose will change on you, it's not a fixed number.

We tend to make increases or decreases in 0.25u increments. That way you find the optimum dose.
Cats are small and whole unit jumps can be a huge difference in response.
We want to keep Charlie safe and get him to good numbers all the time.

 

I forgot to ask, do you have diabetic friendly treats? It can make testing a lot easier if Charlie likes treats ;-)

 

While I agree that 1.5 is too high I thought lowering him down to 1 was too big of a decrease. That's why I was trying to do it in increments. Hmm...guess it's time to pop on over to the lantus group and figure it out. Whatever we decide, hopefully by Sunday it'll be regulated enough to be able to do a curve (and have it be accurate).

Right now we're just giving Charlie his canned food or a couple pieces of left over kibble for treats. We've weaned him and our other cat completely off of the dry food (except for the couple of pieces at testing times). I'll try to get some safe (actual) treats for him for Sunday...if I'm going to be testing that often, a couple pieces of kibble each time might end up being a small serving of dry food for him.

 

LOL yup, that little bit of kibble adds up. I either use boiled chicken or freeze dried chicken. Honestly when I was testing ALL the time....yes Ill admit I'm a test addict lol, it was cheaper to just buy some chicken breast (king Hidey doesnt like dark meat), boil it, and stick it in a baggie in the fridge for testing. He LOVESSSSS test time, lol so do my other 2 cats (can't give one and not the other lol) Heck, if I left the chicken breast in the pot or forgot the container of freeze dried chicken on the counter Hidey would either steal the chicken out of the pot or go knock his treats off the counter and start crying like "HEY, its time to test" I don't know if you have an amazon prime membership but I find the freeze dried chicken cheaper there or on chewy.com

http://www.amazon.com/Halo--Littles-Nat ... ed+chicken

It's funny because honestly even though this has been a journey, and I only wish him to be healthy this has been a great thing for me and Hidey. It's really built a STRONG bound between me and him. He's always been my baby, I got him years ago when I was going through some really tough times but he's never been a lap kitty. He'd come by us fr a minute or two for some scratches and then go find somewhere to take a nap. Now all he wants is attention. He shoves his way onto my lap no matter what, if I'm paying too much time to the computer and he wants attention he crawls onto the keyboard and sits on it. Not to mention I havent seen him this active in years.....I just attributed it to age.

 

Wow! You are picking up good info and absorbing it well. Cudos for removing the dry food from the entire household. I personally believe that dry food is the cause of so many feline maladies - especially those in the digestive system. One read of Catinfo.org and I removed it cold turkey.

So, as mentioned before, weaning off the dry food snacking is important. Even a couple of these bad boys can raise the bg.

Another option for low carb treats is the Orijen Original Cat Treats as seen here

I went through a lot of freeze dried treats before I found the only one my sugarcat will eat - along with his civvies. I can also get them at my Pet Nutrition Center.

Keep up the good work!