BG 330- what dose of insulin.

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Hey,

I posted this on my thread from last nigh (viewtopic.php?f=28&t=53870) but Louie is due for his insulin now. As I am new to this, I don't know what to give him

He is on Humulin N. He was getting 4 units twice daily (w/out bg testing). I took over his care and am trying to figure out testing him. He dropped down to 38 yesterday after his shot. He was at 330 about 30 mins ago.

I have no idea what to give him now...but his insulin is due. Any help would be appreciated!!!!!! Thanks!

-Laura
 
Laura - please do another test and see what he is now.

I believe Carl suggested 1.5u's last night? 330 is a fairly high number, 1.5 or 2.0u's Humulin shouldn't make it crash.

Have you started your spreadsheet yet? I learned that's REALLY REALLY important...if all your notes are on paper, you can't see patterns. If you'll go ahead and bite the bullet and do it, it will help you tremendously. The notes only give you a 'one shot' view, your brain can't see the patterns and repeating things. I know it's a pain but please do it. It will give you a HUGE tool!
 
Hi,

I believe Carl had said 1 or 1.5 for 200/250 last night but did not discuss higher then that. I also am worried my reading last night may have been off as I had purchased an inexpensive meter last night (had been using my dads (who is diabetic) meter yesterday when he had the bg of 38). I compared them this am and my dads meter read 330 and the one I had purchased read 169. Big difference! I am going to return that meter and buy one like my dads. He has extra strips I can use.

I am really trying to figure all this out. I have not had a chance to create a spreadsheet yet... I will try to find time today to figure it out.

I just checked his levels a few mins ago and hes up to 347.

I will give him 2 and check again in an hour or so? I need to go out and get more needles as well as try to get a meter like my dads. I will give him his shot, run the errands and then check when I get back.

Thanks,

Laura
 
Laura,
I requested that everyone stop posting on the yesterday's thread and move to this one so I won't get confused............. :? I went back and read everything on the old one and see your questions about the spreadsheet. I'll go find the info and edit this post for you.

Right now, I think the best dose to stay with is 2u's twice a day until you get more information. From what I'm reading, I THINK this is half of the original dose.......is that correct? By testing for a while after the shot, you'll figure out how long it takes the insulin to start working (onset). Then you will start seeing when it quits working also. THAT is your 'cycle', the equivalent to others on the 12/12 schedules that use one of the other insulins. It will probably end up being about 7-8 hours. There's nothing left to come along later and slap at that number so it will rise, not 'hiccup' and go down.
 
I dont think I would shoot any higher than 2 units right now. Good going mommy bean. I think with the insulin you are using, you would need to test again in =2,4,6 hours. Do you have a google account? That is where you will get the spread sheet - in documents...It has been along time since I sat mine up, so I dont really remember how I did it, but do remember it was fairly easy!
 
Hey guys,

I went ahead and gave him 2. I am going to run errands and check him when I get back. I am going to do my best to get the spreadsheet done today. I do have a google account. Its just hard....I have so much to do and this is taking up so much time. I really am trying my best and I will continue to.

I will test him when I get home and post the numbers on here.

Thanks!!

Laura
 
I know hon, it's a steep learning curve in the beginning, but it does get better, I promise! :-D

We call it a dance for a reason... :lol: And just like learning a new dance of any type, at first you feet get all tangled up, you trip over yourself, and feel completely overwhelmed and frustrated...and then you take a deep breath, slow down and learn step along the way. And before you know it, you body hears the music, and the dance flows with grace and easy....Just when dancing with a sugarcat, we don't get to hear the music...only they do. :roll: So the only way we get to hear the music is by testing them, and dancing accordingly. In the beginning you will swear you are learning to do the Quick-Step but eventually it turns into a Waltz.... :lol:

You and Louie are already doing way better than a lot that first start out, you have already got him on a proper diet...You're giving insulin, granted not a great insulin, but insulin non-the-less. And most importantly is your are TESTING....You have all the basic steps down already...the little fine tuning we can help you with....And there is a good chance since you just changed his diet that he will go off the insulin altogether. Maxwell went for being 485 when he was dxed to in remission in 2 WEEKS!!! Just from changing his diet and giving his pancreas a little bit of insulin support, which is what you have just done for Louie. Now that is not to say that Louie will come off insulin..but it does happen.

Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang
 
Hi Laura,
with that number 2 units is good.
I know how you feel, we all understand!
Trust us....this DOES get easier.

Carl
 
Mel's description of the dance is perfect.
Just remember that in this dance, the kitties lead!
Carl
 
Squeaky and KT said:
Laura - please do another test and see what he is now.

I believe Carl suggested 1.5u's last night? 330 is a fairly high number, 1.5 or 2.0u's Humulin shouldn't make it crash.

Have you started your spreadsheet yet? I learned that's REALLY REALLY important...if all your notes are on paper, you can't see patterns. If you'll go ahead and bite the bullet and do it, it will help you tremendously. The notes only give you a 'one shot' view, your brain can't see the patterns and repeating things. I know it's a pain but please do it. It will give you a HUGE tool!

Here is the initial description for setting up your spreadsheet:

Setting up your Google spreadsheet

Laura - it takes a little time to set up the spreadsheet initially but after that, it's a breeze - literally seconds. I keep KT's open on my desktop most of the time. I just pop it up and enter the latest test and any info I think I might find useful later.

Google has had an update recently and I THINK someone found something different.
 
Hey everyone!!

Thank you!! I got back a few minutes ago from my errands. I bought a bayer contour meter and am using my dads test strips. I tested him as soon as I got home and he was 343. I tested again (different ear prick, the blood had already stopped by the time I got another strip in) and it said 329 (I believe- its in the meter, but I left it upstairs accidentally...I will double check in a few.) So there was a bit of a difference between the 2 readings...but not too big. Is that normal?

Its been about 2 hours since I gave him his insulin (a little less then 2 hours) is this reading ok for now? I am concerned as I don't want him to not feel good and pee around the house and of course, I don't want him to not feel good! Also, should I offer him some lunch or skip it as his sugars are higher? Ive been offering low carb canned food throughout the day and low carb treats (freeze dried chicken) during his blood testing. He does not like the testing but is tolerating it for his much deserved treats! lol

Also, ive been pricking the ear for the tests and it's working well, but I think I accidentally poked through his ear b4. (OUCH!!!!) What do I do to avoid this?

Well...im off to put the baby down for a nap and work on my essay (and hopefully the spreadsheet! Thanks for the info!!!). I'll check back in a little while!

Thanks again!

Laura
 
Yes that reading is fine - not low at all. We want the cycle to just change by 75 - 100 from beginning to end right now.

I freaked when I got 2 different readings the first time but there's two things to remember:

1) One might have been a faulty strip (not likely in this case)
2) A meter will vary by up to 20%. When the number is high, that variance looks huge but the smaller the number, the less that number will vary. 300 @ 20% = 60 variance 30 @ 20% = 6 variance...just an example.

FOOD QUESTION - SOMEONE ELSE PLEASE ANSWER THAT. I'm still struggling with my feeding so don't want to steer her wrong...
 
Laura,
I think the protocal is 20% difference ~ no worries. I bet Louie will be lower in +4 hours... Glad you are there to test and yes, I have pokey poked Bean where there is more blood on the tissue than on the top of the ear! eeeks.... I tell her I am going to buy her some diamond rings for her being sooo good for her mommy! I think I am not holding the tissue close enough on the underside..or the lancet pen is set a little too high... my pen will go up to 9 on the scale and I usually set it at 7-8.
Can you offer lunch and still get a reading without food for close to 2 hours before test?
You are doing GREAT!
Good luck with the essay and your spreadsheet.....
 
First of all, you might try and switch to PZI bovine insulin. It is the type that most closely resembles a cat's anatomy. You can order it online, through your vet. I don't think they will let me post a phone #. It is also longer-acting.
I want to show you an article on 'tight regulation' method conceived by a vet. I hope this helps, and doesn't confuse you. <The method of managing the feline diabetic that I use has been called “Tight Regulation.” This name describes the fact that this protocol uses proper diet and the correct insulin to bring the cat’s blood glucose levels into a tight range around normal for healthy cats. In so doing, it can cause permanent remissions in even chronically ill cats. One of the unique features of this method is the practice of hometesting. I recommend that all owners of diabetic cats purchase a glucometer (the kind human diabetics use to test their own blood sugar levels) at their local pharmacy. Learning to use such a device on a cat is simple and easy; I have never had a client who could not learn to use a glucometer with great skill in a very short time (see www.felinediabetes.com/bg-test.htm). Once you are hometesting, you have all the information you need, at your fingertips, to manage your cat’s diabetes, perhaps even managing it right out of existence!

PZI insulin has a peak activity time in most cats at 6-8 hours after injection. This means that the blood glucose level in the diabetic cat will be at its lowest point 6-8 hours after the last dose of insulin. After this time, it will begin to rise again until another dose of insulin is injected. Because of this, I ask my clients to perform a blood glucose test at 6-8 hours after each dose. If the blood glucose is still above the normal range (greater than 150) then another injection of insulin is warranted. In the beginning days of tight regulation, owners typically test three to four times per day and often give insulin, in doses dictated by the blood glucose reading at each test, this often as well.

This may seem very time and effort intensive, and compared to the usual once daily or twice daily “blind” dosing of insulin that traditional protocols call for, it is more work. However, the benefits of Tight Regulation are huge, and every one of my clients that has tried this method is glad they did. Their cats feel better, are more active and playful, and regain better body condition than they ever experienced using the “old” methods. Further, over a few days or weeks, many cats require smaller and smaller doses of insulin, less often, and the majority go off insulin altogether over time. The extra time and effort invested in the beginning of Tight Regulation is repaid manifold as the patient becomes well again!

The following is a suggested “sliding scale” for the cat just starting Tight Regulation. The protocol asks the owner to test at least twice daily, but optimally three or four times daily (every 6-8 hours), with doses of insulin given according to the reading at each test:


Blood Glucose mg/dl Units of Insulin to Inject
151-170 .5
171-185 1
186-200 1.5
201-220 2
221-250 2.5
251-290 3
291-350 3.5
351-410 4

Using this protocol, you can expect to start seeing some very “normal” numbers within a few days or weeks of starting. As long as you are feeding your cat ONLY low-carbohydrate foods, you do not need to be fearful of clinical hypoglycemia. In fact, those blood glucose numbers in the 60-120 range are the objective of the protocol. Even if the blood glucose drops to 30-50, do not feed sugar syrup or dry food. A small, high protein wet food meal is all you need for a cat at these numbers and that is more for the owner than the cat. As time passes, smaller doses will achieve the same results that larger ones once did, and you will even start skipping doses as you test and find the blood glucose is still in the normal range many hours or even days after the last dose of insulin. When this happens, you will know your cat’s own pancreas is beginning to function on its own.>
 
Hi!

Thank you so much for the information! I don't have much time atm but as soon as I get home this evening (I need to go pick up my fiance and bring him to an apt) I will research "tight regulation"! :-)

I would like to switch his insulin, but I need to get together enough money to get to the vet first...and I am not sure exactly when that will happen. I am hoping sometime next week.

I had a terrible time testing Louie's bg this afternoon. I could NOT get a blood sample. I was massaging and warming both his ear and his paw and there was not enough blood! I pricked him so much! He is very angry at me now! I finally got a reading about 0 mins ago and he was at 282. This was at about 5 hours and 20 mins after his shot.

Louie won't come near me now...so he has not had any food since this am (10:30) except for his low carb treats which he had a few of while I was trying to get blood.

Again, Thank you so much for the information and help! The people on this board are amazing!

-Laura
 
Louie WILL forgive you....don't beat yourself up about that point. As you test more often, his ears will begin bleeding easier. I use the lancet pen - can't make myself to just pokie him without feeling bad. We started off on the deepest setting and have now backed down three of 5 adjustments....
 
I would not consider a sliding scale until you have much more data. Humulin is a very different insulin than PZI. Humulin will hit much faster and not last as long, so it can be dangerous to shoot without considering when his nadir is and how low the Humulin takes him. The more data you have, the more confident you will be about what dose to give. You can look back to see what his dose was on a similiar preshot and nadir number, see if it worked well and consider that dose.

Are you heating his ear? Oliver needed more than a massage; he needed a hot ear. If the rice sack is cumbersome, some people put very warm water in a pill bottle and put it up next to the ear. It warms it and gives a nice surface to poke against.

I would suggest feeding him snacks during the day and be sure you feed him after testing but before giving insulin. Since Humulin hits fast, you want him to have food in his stomach. It would seem that snacks during the day might raise the bg levels but sometimes they even things out - a plus with Humulin. You can divide whatever you plan to feed during the day (and night) and divide it into thirds or fourths. Some of us freeze the portion so they can graze during the cycle.
 
Hey guys,

I just checked his BG again and it's 320. That means the lowest it has been all day (at least when I checked) is 282. :-/

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Laura
 
Also, I am trying to begin a spreadsheet, but when I click on it, I get this message "We're sorry, your spreadsheet cannot be copied at this time." :-/ Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Laura
 
Laura, I just want to make clear that the info posted by member "london2z" was taken from a tight regulation protocol a Dr. Hodgkins designed to be used with an insulin that is no longer available, thus, it does NOT apply to the insulin you are using and can be dangerous if used with any other insulin than the one it was designed for sooooooo, given you don't have a lot of free time, it's not something to worry about right now. the concept in general is good but one needs alot of time to put into it and it's not something for someone new to this dance to try until they have some understanding of the disease, their cat, and insulins. (and fwiw, Dr. Hodgkins was my vet before she quit practicing)

also, i hope anyone reading takes this with a grain of salt, "london2z" just joined today and has posted 3 times is all, 2 of which is promoting old outdated info so, i would ask "london2z" to be careful doling out advice just yet until you get some experience under your belt because there are lives at the end of our fingertips when typing on a forum such as this.
 
As far as your spreadsheet, some search engines work better than others, so if you have a couple choices, try each.

Sometimes you can access it by signing onto Google, searching Goggle docs for templates and then FD or FDMB template and get it that way.

Here is another way people have gotten it to come up: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50130
 
Thanks guys!

I'm just gonna continue what ive been doing. I will try and figure out that spreadsheet in a few. Im not feeling well atm. Think im coming down with something. :-/

I will test Louie's bg at 10 and post on here what it is. Hopefully someone will be around to help me figure out what insulin dose to give (or should I just stick with 2? It didn't seem to bring him down much today).

Thanks,

Laura
 
someone should be on here if you feel safer to get a bit of advice first. dont worrie about that, but it could take a few for a response, so dont jump the gun if you want advice before you shoot....just give someone a few to answer, you are doing wonderful!
 
Hey,

Ok..so I just checked it and it's 330 again (fits in nicely with this post title...lol)

2 didnt really get him down this am...should I try 3? I smell pee upstairs so it appears he is peeing again. :-( Ive gotta figure out where and clean it.

Thoughts are appreciated!!

Thanks,

Laura
 
FWIW, he could be bouncing from the 38. My kitty will sit in the 300s for days after a low number, and I just have to wait it out. I don't know if it's different with another insulin. We are using Levemir.
 
I have no idea! I don't know what his levels were as I only started testing him yesterday. The only thing I do know is that peeing had appeared to stop and now it seems to have started again. :-(


If he is "bouncing back" from the 38 does that mean you don't want to counteract the raised bg with more insulin? Hes been around this level all day. :-/ Im just not sure if I should give him the 2 I gave this am or a bit more?
 
I would stay with 2 for tonight. I'll post again later but wanted to get that out to you
carl
 
Yes, give him the 2u's just like this morning. I'm surprised we didn't see more movement down and back up today but that's a GOOD thing. If everything works right, the curve for the cycle will look like a smile rather than a 'V'.
 
I am a bit confused though...isn't 330 to high? Wouldn't we want the curve to be lower?

Im really concerned about the peeing....if he really starts up again, my parents are not gonna keep him. I found the peed on spot and cleaned it...but I am just really concerned.
 
Yes, 330 is high but it may take a couple days for him to "settle" into the dose, especially since he's been at a higher one. You did get a small drop today so 2u is a good start. At least.you don't need to worry about too steep a drop qhen you're not there! Give him a couple.more days at this dose and tgen we can adjust if.needed.
 
Laura,
What we are thinking is that the numbers today were caused by how low his BG went yesterday. We call that a "bounce". His body isn't used to "normal" BG levels. So what happens is that his liver "panics", and when it senses his BG too low, it causes glucose to be released into his system, which pushes up his BG levels.
The advice we give is "don't react to the bounce" by shooting higher doses of insulin just because they seem too high. We have already seen that 4 units and 3 units can cause him to react strongly, and push his BG down to danger-zone levels. We're trying to help you to avoid that, which is why everyone is advising you give lower doses than you might feel are needed.
Your question is a great one - "if his numbers are high, why not shoot more?" The danger in that is that at some point, his liver will quit fighting the low numbers, and one day it'll say, "okay I give up, go ahead and go low". The problem is that nobody knows when that will happen. It could be days or weeks, but eventually it will happen. In order to avoid a hypo, which can hurt or kill him if it is a really low number, you have to err on the side of caution, in case his liver quits fighting when you don't expect it. We call it "liver training". You try to get the blood sugar just low enough that it makes kitty feel better, and lets his body get used to lower numbers gradually.
We know he should be fine on a two unit dose. We don't know that more than that is safe. Like Lyresa said, you want his curve to resemble a "smile", not a "V". If he starts at 330, and only goes down to 180, that's a nice shape. If he starts at 330 and goes down to 40, that is not a nice shape. The trick is finding a dose that will keep him safe and start the healing process.

I hope that makes the way we are thinking more clear. The peeing will stop, but no matter how much insulin you give him, you can't make it stop immediately. Bob didn't pee all over the place, luckily, but it was a couple of weeks before I saw a big difference in the amount he was drinking and peeing. You and Louie will get there though, I promise.
Carl
 
Hi Carl!

Thanks for the info. I do understand a bit better now. What I am finding very frustrating is that the peeing had pretty much stopped and has only started again sometime this am. It was happening ALL the time and my mother was ready to put Louie to sleep. When I took over the insulin and put Louie on a schedule, the peeing seemed to lessen and then stop.

I am concerned that if he continues peeing, my mom and dad will return to the thought of putting him to sleep. I know it is not his fault that he is peeing (and my mom understands that to) but understandably, my mom does not want to deal with this anymore. She just had the floors redone as they were ruined by peeing. In the past, he has ruined a DVD player, peed inside the stove and peed multiple times on my now 3 yr old sons books. I just need to figure out a way to keep it under control. :-/

I will follow whatever directions you guys give me and pray that he regulates soon! *cross fingers* i'm gonna head u and test his bg levels. I'll post it on here, but then I need to go to sleep. I have to get up again early tomorrow. :-(

Thanks again!
-Laura


p.s. I dont know if it matters, but I actually have not tried 3 units at any point. He was on 4 and then hes been on 2 since last night....but nothing inbetween. :-)
 
k- I just checked and his BG was 258. Gonna go to bed now and hope all is well overnight. I will check him in the AM and report back.
 
Laura,
I wasn't sure on the 3u, and was going by memory (not quite what it used to be!).
It may very well be that he ends up needing an increase to 2.5 or 3 at some point. Everyone's hoping of course that it goes down rather than up. A good rule of thumb on doses is to hold them for several days and let kitties "settle in to them". In 2 or 3 more days, you'll have enough data to make a logical decision regarding the next step. I'm just hoping he pees in the boxes until then and not elsewhere. I'm sure that you are too!

If it does ever get to the point where the folks determine that Louie "needs to go", please let everyone here know. We'll knock ourselves out trying to find him a new home if necessary. Diabetes should never mean that kitty needs to get put to sleep. Like you said, it isn't his (or anyone's) fault that he has diabetes. I understand your Mom's frustrations. But there are better options.

Carl
 
Ms. Laura & Sweet boy Louie,
Do you think your moms friend could prescribe a different insulin without a vet office visit? I went to bed and woke up thinking about Louie and how he could get switched to Lantus or PZI. I know that I have some left of Beans (PZI), would need to find out how to get it to you without shaking and keeping it cold, figuring out if it is still good. The label has washed off so I dont know about expired dates, but I would be glad to try to help. She received this insulin on 4/21/11. I have heard that sometimes folks here will donate/sell at lower price the insulin when kitties are OTJ. The way I look at it, Bean is OTJ now, and if she goes back to needing insulin, I would probably have to buy new anyway. There is no reason to let it sit in my fridge and ruin if you could use it.
We would have to get advice on how this is done from ppl here that have gone thru this before.
I also went online to craigslist here and found a few ppl selling their insulin...lantus and levemir? dont know if anyone has tried that before or if it is a safe way to go????
Hoping he dont peeeeee anywhere but the box today!
 
Hey everyone!

Just check Louie's BG levels and he is at 336 this am. I am going to go ahead and give him 2 units and breakfast (unless I hear otherwise).

I have some good news this am! I was on the phone with my mom (she is still in Michigan visiting my sister) and she has agreed to pay to bring Louie to our old vet (whom I LOVE!). I am so excited about this! I can discuss the insulin with her and go over his level thus far. And hopefully get some hands on training for get Louie's blood more efficiently! I had a terrible time this am with it. He was actually hissing at me and actually scratched me (only a little)....and this is NOT a cat who scratches. He and I made up over some freeze dried chicken....but I am a bit worried about the next reading. Sometimes I hit a good spot and get more then enough blood and other times (like this am) I prick him a ton of time without enough blood to get a reading and also end up ruining test strips (I think there is enough blood and go to put it on and its not....or he moves suddenly and it gets messed up.

Ive gone through all the strips my dad gave me in my attempt to test him. There were a decent amount of strips too. :-( Any thoughts on where I can buy the strips for bayer contour fairly cheaply?

Anyway, thanks again to EVERYONE

-Laura


P.s. Ohbell- it is SO very kind of you to offer me your insulin! I really appreciate it!! I have no idea how I would get it though- if anyone has any thoughts I would appreciate it. How much does the insulin cost? Is it much more then the one Louie is on now? Hopefully not, my mom has been paying for that and if its not too much more im sure she would be ok with the upgrade.
 
Good morning Laura and sweet Louie!

Don't worry about the testing and the scratch - do put peroxide on it - Louie will forgive you..

How about starting a new thread this morning and we'll close down this one from yesterday.....if not, they get so long that lots of good information for others gets missed.... :-D
 
Sure! I'll start a new thread in a little while when I re-test Louie's BG! :-) I'll make the title his levels. :-)

FYI- I am REALLY trying to get to the spreadsheet. I know I need to get it done. Ive just been so swamped...and a bunch of other issues (non Louie) have popped up in the last 2 days to add to what I need to do. Im just trying to keep everything 2gether!

I'll talk to everyone later on my new thread. :-D
 
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