Newbie greeetings

Hello. I've just been through what turns out, from reading here, to be a fairly average kind of hell with my newly diagnosed 12 year old, Akbah (the one on the right in the picture). He and Hannah both started getting sick, but though she seems fine now, he could never get better, and I knew he was losing too much weight; I kept pestering my vet till we did blood tests and voila. Diabetes, liver damage, worms, UTI, dehydration, ... I think that was all he had at the time. I'm ashamed of the worms but there it is. So he stayed at the vets on a drip for awhile, but he wouldn't eat, so I brought him home and he went in daily for tests for awhile. He was always around 25, 29 (ie. just above or below 500) for awhile there. And he was puking up the UTI medication. Vet started him on some level of insulin which I forget, might have been 4ml once a day? Then quickly changed to 3units twice a day, of Protaphane, http://petdiabetes.wikia.com/wiki/Protaphane "Those in North America know it as Novolin N; others call it Insulatard".

Fast forward away from that bad start, I started home testing a fortnight or so later but it was really really hard, and I became convinced Ak had no blood. Changed to a different tester, and I found that if I pull the cover off the lancet I can get blood using just the needle. First problem solved. After a few tests, the vet did a test and we double checked with my tester (he took a blood sample, put a drop on my test strip and went and checked on his machine). Turned out my little testing unit was way under (18.5, compared to the vet's 25). The vet said, just keep giving them 3units twice a day, and you don't need to keep home testing all the time. We had booked a holiday in New Zealand and decided that Ak was "stable" before we went. We left the pussicats to the care of a professional cat sitter who came to the house twice a day and gave him his needles. Luckily when we came back, all was well. She commented, "he drinks a lot". He sure does. I went north to visit my father, leaving my husband and his father looking after the cats. Now I am home as of last week. Looking at the cats, yup, he really is drinking a lot. Which reminded me of the questions I had about whether Ak was actually stable yet. But the vet is away on holidays now, not back till the start of February. I started googling again, and got very very worried and upset, thinking that maybe Ak was still always hovering in the 20s (400s). So I decided to bite the bullet and do a blood glucose chart following the lead of sugarpet http://www.sugarpet.net/mycurves.html. Even if my tester is inaccurate, at least it would be better than nothing!

I took the day off today, set the alarm to get night readings, results are in the spread sheet (see signature) (Also I made a graph). The numbers shown there are almost all approximates: I was using an Abbott FreeStyle Lite, the one that was testing "under". The vet said, when the FreeStyle reads 18.5, its 25. And, he said, when it reads 11, that's probably 8. So he said, it compresses the two ends, but the mid values are probably reliable. So I transposed my readings to what is shown there. This afternoon I realised that I could use my AccuCheck Performa, my original testing kit, to do the readings, but use the lancet with removable head from the FreeStyle kit. I will do another glucose curve again soon, but I want to give Ak and me both a rest! But then finally maybe I will have "real" readings. In the spreadsheet, I have put the numbers that I think they probably are, which is completely unreliable, but what can I do?

Anyway in a way, its not as bad as I thought. He does respond to the insulin, that's one good thing. I was afraid it "wasn't working at all!" Maybe he is going a bit low, but I want better data to decide that. He gets high, its all still a bit of a big swing, but at least I don't feel like this is an emergency, at least we can wait till February. Going to a new vet is logistical isn't it.

One of the many things that confuses me is the issue of food. Our vet took the cats off our supermarket wet food because there was too much fat in them? I think that's what he said, and he put them on low carb food, but its dry food. I read here that dry food is bad. We've been giving them fish sometimes, like, fresh fish from the markets, stuck in the microwave for a minute. They go off their tiny minds. But maybe its bad, because then we don't "know" how much they are eating, and its different from the other days. Whats the problem with dry food again? I've read so much today my eyes are falling out. Its probably in all that typeface somewhere.

Maybe I didn't get enough sleep last night. Looking back up at this huge hello note, I know its needs editing.
Thanks for being here.
Night.
Nat.
Tired, but satisfied with her day's work.
Australian

Dry food is about the highest in carbs you can get - and any carbs gets converted into sugar in the body, so that is probably why he has so high blood sugar.

You should do what the rest of us have done - close the ear on the vet when they say to give dry food to a diabetic.

What dry food brand did the vet give you?

It's called Royal Canin.
It has all this information on the back but nothing about carbohydrate. I can see that people aim for under 7%. I will have a look for the brands of catfood mentioned by other posts I have read here, but they don't sound familiar, I think its a US - Australia thing. However, I also noticed there is a lady here from Australia who named the catfood she uses https://sites.google.com/site/vyktorsprofile/ . So gradually I am finding useful stuff.

Hi Nat

For a start, I am not liking the sound of your vet that you had to pester to do tests when you knew something was wrong.

I also started out using the freestyle lite meter and believing that meter nearly cost Vyktor his life. It was reading very low in high numbers - the biggest difference I got was 25 on a reliable meter while the freestyle was telling me only 15. Because my vet (now changed) was also stupid and believed the freestyle lite meter without taking any test of his own and said not to worry about the positive ketone tests I was getting on the ketodiastix because they were unreliable Vyktor remained untreated for several weeks until he was hospitalised with DKA. You don't mention, have you got some ketodiastix (available at the chemist) to test the urine regularly for ketones. It is very important when the BG is as high as Akbah.

I haven't heard of this insulin you are using. I was given canninsulin to start with but I soon insisted on changing to lantus. With the lantus insulin and using the tight regulation protocol 84% of cats who are newly diagnosed with diabetes can go into remission. This is what I am trying to do for Vyktor.

As for food the problem with dry food is that it is full of carbohydrates, even the special diabetic dry food is higher in carbohydrates than low carb canned cat food. Cats are pure carnivores they are not designed to eat carbohydrates like this and it is even more important in cats with diabetes. Some cats that have been fed on dry food can have remission from the diabetes just by changing the food. In Australia we are a bit more limited with options of low carb canned food but you can use Ziwipeak (if you can find it there is only one supplier here in W.A), Natures Gift and the loaf types of Whiskas.

Hope this helps, keep posting all you questions there are many many fantastic people here that will help you to get Akbah healthy again - but maybe your vet is not one of them!

Well done on taking you first curve too.

Serryn

p.s. you should put Hannah on a diet if you want to lower her risk of diabetes too! You have to be careful that she loses weight slowly though or she will be at risk of hepatic lipidosis.

And yes the food thing is a US/Aus thing - although you will hear that a lot of people feed fancy feast they use a classic variety that is not available in Australia.

Just to demonstrate that I'm lookin, I found some more stuff, like this
http://felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm
and this
http://www.holisticat.com/rawrecipe.html

Regarding holisticat, which is amazing, what I want to know is, WHERE DO THEY GET THE CREATURES THEY ARE GRINDING UP WHOLE TO FEED TO THEIR CATS? I know capitals are rude to shout, but what the??? Actually hannah loves to eat whole prey, I wouldn't even need the grinder, Ak would be a different kettle of fish, but mainly, I don't have a prey store I can visit.

Starts thinking strange thoughts about the birds at the pet store. Hee hee.

Vyktors Mum said:

Ziwipeak (if you can find it there is only one supplier here in W.A), Natures Gift and the loaf types of Whiskas.

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Thank you. I am so hyped from all this googling, it is a great relief to find something that sounds familiar. At least I know I can start them on Whiskas tomorrow, pending further investigation and reading. I hope no one is offended by my last post. I think feeding cats on prey is a very logical thing to do, and I would prefer it, as I hate processed food for myself and that's one reason I don't like feeding it to the cats. Gregory (my husband) pointed out that we might be able to get rabbits from the butchers. But I think in the short term, Whiskas will be somewhere to start.

Also I will see what the vet knows about other insulins, for I think this one is maybe a bit short acting. At the moment, I think my vet is probably not used to diabetic cats, but might be educatable. So long as he is willing, I prefer that to shopping around. We shall see.

haha, yeah the birds in the pet store would be a treat for her.


When I do raw, since we can't get rabbit here in Sweden, I buy whole meat pieces of beef or ground beef. Ground beef is better because it comes in a variatey of different fat content as 5 % fat, 12 % 15 %. Then instead of whole bone, since I don't have a grinder, I buy powered bone meal and powdered minerals and vitamins and mix with the ground beef.

I've tried various animals we have here in the wild, hare, deer, elk, but they really like the beef the best.

I am extremely happy with Royal Canin Diabetic. I am not advocating an all dry diet, but I believe that a little dry food actually has benefits. Perhaps it can help to create a safer curve too, which is good for tight regulation when you can consistently shoot at lower numbers. My childhood cat was on a fantastic raw diet and never had any dry food. He had crystals, CRF and rotten teeth, so it's important to note that there is really no perfect diet that will keep your cat in perfect health forever. That's not how life works. There are pros and cons to everything.

I thought Nature's Gift wet food contained caramel? Perhaps they have changed that now, as it was quite a few years ago when I read that on their site. Anyway, my cat won't eat that or ZiwiPeak. No way would I feed my cat Whiskas.

For 'prey', you might look for sellers of ... snake food. They may have frozen rats (euthanized with CO2, I believe, but I could be wrong).

You'd defrost in the fridge, possibly warm up slightly, and serve.

If you've not had a chance to look at Lisa Pierson, DVM's website on feline nutrition, she has a "recipe" for raw food. You do need to add supplements in order to provide a nutritionally complete diet.

The insulin you are using is not a long acting insulin. The two brands of insulin that are long-acting and recommended for cats are either Lantus (glargine) or Levemir (detemir). In addition, ProZinc is also recommended for felines.

You might also want to consider switching over to a different template for your SS. There is a "World" version that has a second tab that converts the numbers to the format used in the U.S. (that those of us who are metrically disabled can better understand). I linked the Google doc template. You follow the same directions that are in Tech support for re-naming and linking the SS to you signature if you opt to use this template.

You may find your cat won't eat Whiskers. I have never given it to my cat. There are a few butchers you can track down to find if they will grind up whole animals sufficiently small enough for your cats. Chicken and rabbit for example. The problem with rabbit is that it has a very high ratio of bone to meat so it can cause constipation - it has been a problem with my cat. But if you are buying in bulk they might grind you a ratio of two chicken to one rabbit for example. While you are sorting yourself out you can give your cat some fresh meat, chicken, fish diced up while you are getting your head around the best raw diet that you can manage for you kitties. Plus you don't want to be doing too much grinding only to find they won't eat it. Been there done that!

The tinned Fancy Feast not in gravy would be ok in the short term - there is a premium one that is probably better than the cheaper range. The dry is not good but I'm with the other poster in that I also allow for a little dry sprinkled on top of my cats diced chicken. I also have royal canin for diabetics, Royal Canin Gastro Intestinal and also their hypoallergenic brand. My cat has many food allergies so he is much more complicated.

It's not difficult to move over to a healthier diet - just takes a bit of time initially to find a butcher who will grind up what you want. I found one in Melbourne but now my cat won't eat any ground rabbit at all. :-(

Vyktor's mum wrote to you a couple of times. If you want a role model to follow then keep an eye on her and her spread sheet for Vyktor. She's only one month into FD and she's really got her head around a great approach. My kitty has been FD for 20 months and I'm feeling re-inspired by her. I've mostly likely missed my chance to get my cat regulated but you are in the early stages and can still think in terms of attaining remission for your kitty.

Marilyn in Melbourne

just wanted to say hi, nat! welcome to FDMB - the best place you never wanted to be. i love that all of you from australia have connected with each other - it so helps to have someone how understands what's available in your own area!

you've gotten great advice. the only thing i might add is if you haven't gotten neosporin ointment with pain relief yet (or any antibiotic with pain relief) that is something that can really help you feel better about all the pokes. there must be something similar available in australia. it really takes the sting out. i put it on cat scratches on myself and was amazed at how it helped. i put it on punkin's ear at the end of the day and it heals overnight. makes a big difference.

as far as the meter goes, i also use a freestyle lite. i think the general experience here has been that in higher numbers, that meter reads low. as the numbers get lower it gets more accurate, and it is considered accurate in the lowest numbers. so your vet was right in the higher numbers, but not so much in his assessment of the lower numbers.

i'd encourage you to get a different insulin that's long-lasting as well.

so let us know how we can help you! we're used to a zillion questions because we all had them too! ask away!

Sienne and Gabby said:

There is a "World" version that has a second tab that converts the numbers to the format used in the U.S. (that those of us who are metrically disabled can better understand). I linked the Google doc template.

Click to expand...

Thanks! It asks me to ask for permission, so I hit the button asking for permission, don't know if that will make any sense to the person receiving it.
In the meantime, it occurs to me that I can make the changes to my existing SS so that there is a page with the US version of the numbers on it. Will do that now.
Its a nice idea.

Anyname said:

Vyktor's mum wrote to you a couple of times. If you want a role model to follow then keep an eye on her and her spread sheet for Vyktor. She's only one month into FD and she's really got her head around a great approach. My kitty has been FD for 20 months and I'm feeling re-inspired by her.

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You all inspire me. Thanks everybody for all these ideas.

the beginning of this sugar dance is stressful & frightening to pretty much everyone. when you find this site, you've found hope. we have so many success stories it's amazing.

i've been on since last february and i've seen at least 40 cats who were following the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus go off of insulin in that time. be encouraged. people here really understand feline diabetes and will share their time with you to teach you as well.

Anyname said:

... There are a few butchers you can track down to find if they will grind up whole animals sufficiently small enough for your cats. Chicken and rabbit for example. The problem with rabbit is that it has a very high ratio of bone to meat so it can cause constipation - it has been a problem with my cat. But if you are buying in bulk they might grind you a ratio of two chicken to one rabbit for example. While you are sorting yourself out you can give your cat some fresh meat, chicken, fish diced up while you are getting your head around the best raw diet that you can manage for you kitties. Plus you don't want to be doing too much grinding only to find they won't eat it. Been there done that! ...

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Just raw meat and bone may not have all the nutrients needed by a cat. There are some recipes - ex Cat Info which describe the additions which need to be made to provide them and avoid nutritional deficiencies.

Vyktors Mum said:

you can use Ziwipeak (if you can find it there is only one supplier here in W.A), Natures Gift and the loaf types of Whiskas.

Click to expand...

Serryn, having thought about this awhile, I wonder how you located these as under 7% carbs? Did you contact the manufacturers or find them on a list somewhere?

I went out and found Natures Gift and Whiskas (well Whiskas is pretty easy to find). Natures Gift kangaroo. Also, I found fancy feast (chicken & giblets pate gourmet) and fussycat (seared beef and lamb, lamb & venison, kangaroo fillet strips). I got them because I'd heard the names from discussions here, but of course the content will be different I expect.

Nat, one of the very long-time members of this board, Janet, is a statistics wizard. She took as fed values (not the guaranteed max/min from the labels) and figured out the food values as shown on the charts she developed. The numbers are not totally up to date anymore but they are a good start. the 7% of calories from carbs is based loosely on what a mouse might be (5%). Too little carbs and cats can actually have issues. Many vets really do not have a good knowledge of nutrition, and think that grocery store foods are bad, when in reality, most are better by far than vet foods. The fat content in most grocery store foods is actually just fine, whereas there are a couple of high end brands that ARE too fatty for some. Really, moisture, protein levels, lack of carbs and quality of protein are the most important factors, along with whether your cat will actually eat the food....