8/7 Onyx - AMPS 348, +2 326 DETOX QUESTION

Yesterday: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=101706

Hello LL!

It's official...WE HAVE MOVEMENT!!!! I know it's not blues or greens--and we have a ways to go--but I'm just so happy that Onyx's 2 Nadirs yesterday were 236 and 203. When I tested her at 5am and it said 203, I was so excited I couldn't go back to sleep. She's also playing again today, which is such a relief to see. YAY! I'm hoping a blue or two pop up today.

The Young Again samples just arrived, so paws are crossed that she likes it. I'm not giving up on the Weruva wet food, but this zero carb food should help her numbers.

Have a great day everyone.

:smile:

Re: 8/7 Onyx - AMPS 348, +2 326

Onyx is headed in the right direction! It`s nice to hear she`s feeling like playing today. Have a great day and I hope you see some blue!

Re: 8/7 Onyx - AMPS 348, +2 326

Thanks, Amy. It's all about baby steps, right? lol

And she LOVES the Young Again. Literally licked the bowl clean, which I've never seen her do with anything. Now I've just gotta figure out the best way to safely transition her from 11-18% carbs (seen various data on Wellness Core)...to zero carbs. I read a Tight Regulation article that said when switching to a low carb diet, you MUST do a 24 hour detox with insulin. I'm guessing that since I'm not doing a 100% switch immediately (even though I'd like to), a gradual switch won't require stopping the insulin.

Has anyone ever made the switch all at once, and stopped the insulin for 24 hours?

http://www.diabeticcatcare.com/COK/Detox Process 11.htm

So nice to hear when a kitty starts feeling better, and acting more like they used to. Even though their numbers are not where we want them yet! I can't advise on dosing, but just wanted to stop by and say hi!! Glad Onyx is feeling better!!

Jane

Thanks so much, Jane. I sure hope we end up finding Onyx's happy dose, the way you and Cleo did. That was so awesome.
Congrats on going OTJ!

:smile:

Has anyone ever made the switch all at once, and stopped the insulin for 24 hours?

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Hi Brandi,
I've read that detox procedure on the DCC site. A couple of things....
They don't use the same TR protocol there as the one followed here. Their TR is more geared towards Prozinc/PZI.
And usually people are switching from dry or HC canned to LC canned, but the concept is the same - you're switching to a lower carb level food, so insulin levels may need to be adjusted downward.
Anytime you make a significant change to carbs, you need to be monitoring the numbers.

I know that here, the usual advice is to make the change gradually rather than cold turkey. I'm guessing that is so that it's easier to manage any drop in BG resulting from the switch. I think that if possible, it would be easier and safer to make the switch gradually rather than cutting off insulin completely, even short term. Just my opinion.

Thanks, Carl. Even though I'd love to just get her off high carbs immediately, my plan is definitely gradual. Do you think a week is sufficient? I'm not sure how many days I should spread it out over. I was just curious if anyone HAD done it the detox way...and how it worked out.

And thanks for pointing out that their TR protocol is different from FDMB. I didn't realize that. So much to learn.

Thanks for the input.

:smile:

Hi Brandi -

I feed Bob the Young Again zero carb because after a week, he refused the wet food. When I first tried to transition from regular dry to YA, he wouldn't eat it. THen I got him eating canned for a week and when he started refusing the canned, I gave him the YA and he was very happy to have the dry kibble back so he ate it and has continued eating it.

Not sure if you have called the company, but their number is on the website and Jennifer usually answers - she is really nice and has a lot of advice about how to transition. The recommend with the YA that you free feed. At first they will eat alot, but eventually, they will start only eating what they need. Let me warn you that my cats are eating a bit too much (it's been a little over a week) and their poop smells HIDEOUS!!!! Jennifer says once they start only eating what they need, the smell should go away. I certainly hope so!

Regarding his BG, to be honest, I can't really tell what's going on yet. You should take a look at his ss if you get a chance. When he was on canned food - it was all greens and blues and maybe a yellow here and there. When I switched him to the YA, his numbers actually got worse. However, it's possible that he's going low and then bouncing for 3 days - I'm kind of seeing that pattern. He did not bounce as bad with the wet food as he is now with the YA. so, I'm still a bit confused as to what is going on. Maybe you could transition Onyx on a weekend when you can watch his BG.

Sorry I couldn't be more help!

Yes, I think a week is a good plan ;-)
I hope that if anyone has done the detox thing, they see this and give input too. I hadn't seen it done, but by no means do I read every condo every day
Yeah, their version of TR is sort of scary to me nailbite_smile

It would also be good if others who use or have used the YA zero carb can let you know what sort of changes they've seen regarding BGs.

Part of the reason for a slow food change is also to avoid GI upsets. Some (many?) cats systems react poorly to suddent food changes with diarrhea, vomiting, or inappetance, none of which work well if you've already given the insulin, as then you have a cat heading towards a possible hypo.

You might switch out 20-25% of the old food with the new food each day or every 2 days.

Observe the glucose tests you get as you make your food changes.
- If glucose levels were running a bit too high, you may see them getting better.
- If you were already on a stable insulin dose and are changing the food to reduce the glucose levels, you'll likely need to back off the insulin. Depending on how well you know your cat, you might choose to drop 0.25-0.5 units at the same time as you make a food shift. If you're patient, you might take 2-3 days at each level of food shifting, so you can see the impact and make finer adjustments based on your data.

Hi Dara.

Thanks for stopping by. No, your email is quite helpful.

Yes, Jennifer at YA is awesome! One of my best customer service experiences. I just ordered the full bag today, as the 2 samples are so small they won't last past tomorrow. I put about 2 tbsps in an empty bowl and she DEVOURED it. Then when I took away the empty bowl and put the Wellness Core back down, she turned up her nose to it...and she was liking it just fine before...lol.

Thanks for the heads up on the stinky poo. I never noticed a difference with that on the Wellness, but my kitties reacted that way to the Blue Buffalo. I'm hoping they ship the bag out today, so I might get it for the weekend. Forunately, I'm off for the summer, so I can be here with her no matter when we do the transition, but I'm anxious to get it underway now that she's finally responding a bit to the insulin. I'd rather get the carbs out of her system before we go much higher in her dose, then have to drop her again. But that might be what happens anyway, so we'll see.

Has anyone here gave any opinions to you on why Carl's numbers have gotten worse on zero carbs? I'd be curious to see what they have to say. I believe I've seen other people say their particular cats NEED a bit more carbs, so perhaps your kitty is one that might fit in that category? I'll make sure I stay on top of your condo's to see how he progresses.

Thanks again for the feedback, Dara. Much appreciated.

Oh, and I have a few extra gas masks from some home renovations, if you want me to send you a few...to block out the poo! hehehe (sorry, sometimes I just can't help myself.)

:lol:

Thanks, BJM. That's some great advice. It will be a few days until the full bag gets here, so I guess I'll see how her numbers look before I start. She's JUST started to respond favorably to the insulin, so it will be interesting to see how much the zero carb food affects her.

Most likely I'll go with your later option with being more patient, as long as her nadirs are in the 200's like they are now. If she's in the 100's when we shift over, I'll probably have to drop the dose .25 or .5, along with the changes, to be extra careful. She's finally starting to feel better, so I don't want to send her in the opposite direction.

When you mentioned the GI upsets, that brings up a question: would a cat that normally doesn't have a sensitive GI tract with food changes, be more sensitive to a lower carb diet? Onyx has never been affected by food changes before. I'm sure she will be by the wet, when we FINALLY get her to eat it. When I switched her 2 weeks ago to Wellness Core (11-18%) from Blue Buffalo (27%), it had no affect on her bowels what-so-ever. And I did it over 2 days, because she handled it well.

Thanks again, BJM.
:smile:

Hi Brandi! Sorry I'm so late to the condo, but it's been one of those days ;-)

The only thing I'd add regarding your last concern about food transitioning is this...Just because Onyx did fine moving from Blue Buffalo to Wellness, doesn't mean she'll react the same way going to YAZC..each brand is made differently, with different nutritional components and digestibility, so I think it'd be safest to just go slow even if she's done well before. It's a lot easier catch problems as they might be starting and try to prevent them, than it is to treat them after they've happened

Has anyone here gave any opinions to you on why Carl's numbers have gotten worse on zero carbs?

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:lol: Carl's numbers are perfect, no matter how many carbs he eats. :lol:

Bob's numbers are confusing (not my Bob, but Dara's Bob) ;-)

I'm thinking it might have something to do with free feeding the YA versus more scheduled feeding with canned, maybe?

Thanks, Chris. That exactly the answer I was looking from my last question to BJM. I'm definitely going to do it gradually, I just wasn't sure if there was a chance she'd have GI issues, regardless of the transition speed. For instance, I noticed some GI changes in Klepto from just ONE can of Weruva. But hopefully Onyx will handle this food like she does the rest. I'll do like BJM suggested and start with 20-25%.

Thanks, Chris.

:smile:

oooopsy...sorry, guys. Looks like I got a few kitties names mixed up in my attempts to reply to everyone. Sorry about that.

Carl, you could be on to something there about the free-feeding, especially if that's not how a cat normally eats. According to the company, that levels out and they don't eat nearly as much after a while, so hopefully Dara's Bob will start to show some improvement when that happens. Onyx has always been a free-feeder, so that shouldn't be a problem for her, luckily.

Thanks for the input, everyone!

:lol: Carl's numbers are perfect, no matter how many carbs he eats. :lol:

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so how do you know that Carl? :lol: I don't believe you are testing yourself. :lol:


Here's Ninja's spreadsheet.....for an example of how it's been done.
She has notes in the margin about how fast she had to change dosage.... in response to the food transition. Ninja didn't like treats either so she used drops of milk ( with a dropper) to raise bg. ( and had ice cream in the freezer in case)

I asked Melanie to come give input so hopefully she can pop by when she gets off work....

Thanks so much for sharing Ninja's ss, Rhiannon. That is AMAZING how much the food affected the numbers...and dosing. I will be going back to that one MANY times.

Thank you, thank you!

:YMHUG:

Onyx & Klepto said:

...When you mentioned the GI upsets, that brings up a question: would a cat that normally doesn't have a sensitive GI tract with food changes, be more sensitive to a lower carb diet? ...

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I don't know of any reason that would happen. However, if anything is true about our sugar cats, its that things change and Every Cat Is Different (ECID). Because the consequences can be severe if vomiting happens - ex a possible hypo incident on a kitty that can't keep food down may require vet hospitalization - being conservative, cautious, and prepared seems prudent.

Hey Brandi -

That's funny that you called my cat "Carl". :lol: Anyway, nobody really knows why Bob's numbers are weird. I've been chatting with Melanie (Ninja's mom) and she was really fortunate at how fast Ninja's numbers came down. You know, ECID, so who the heck knows. I think Bob's bounce should have ended tonight and he's at 300, so I'm really disappointed that the food isn't making a bigger difference in his numbers. Well, that's a lie because when he was on regular dry and 4.25 units of insulin he had the same numbers he does now. So the YA does seem to be helping because he's only on 1 unit now. I'll probably have to start increasing his insulin and hopefully get his numbers lower and find his good dose. A lot of people on this board feed good, LC wet food and still have to give a good bit of insulin. So, just the food change may not help every cat. But it doesn't hurt to try it! It would be amazing if Onyx comes down fast like Ninja did.

My kitties didn't have any problem with the food other than the smell of their poop. Hector has a sensitive stomach and he was fine. I think Ninja got pretty bad diarrhea and Melanie had to give her digestive enzymes (and still does). Again it all depends. Jennifer will recommend that you do not try to transition slowly. If you mix the YA with other food, they tend to overeat and possibly get diarrhea. You just plop down the food and make sure the bowl is always full. She said that's what has worked best for all the kitties they've tested (they use their own pets!). Right now my kitties are still eating quite a bit, but it's only been a week.

Well, I wish you luck! I'll check in and see how it's going!

Hi Brandi! Yes, my cat Ninja was able to get into remission using the Young Again Zero Carb. The transition was like a roller coaster ride -- going from 4.5 units of Lantus to .25 in about 10 days (if I am remembering correctly).... so great that you are off over the summer as that will make things easier for frequent testing. The YAZC had the same impact on Ninja as if I had transitioned her to a low carb wet food from a high carb dry -- and giving her 4.5 units of Lantus at the same time -- it was a challenge, to say the least, keeping up with the rapid drop in BG and reducing her insulin to keep pace.

Every cat is different. I hope Onyx has similar good results, and since your dose of Lantus is lower than what I was giving Ninja, hopefully the transition will not be as dramatic. I also think it is good that you are still trying to get Onyx to eat wet food too - as that is best for the long term health of the cat.

Otherwise, Ninja has been happily in remission since February of this year (about a month or so after I switched to YAZC). She continues to think wet food is poison, though I'm still trying (she has won the battle, but I am going to win the food war...LOL!!). Vet says she is healthy. Her coat looks fantastic and she has tons of energy. She has leaned out (lean but muscular). The only downside of the YAZC (other than the fact that it is dry) is that it causes Ninja to have loose stinky poop. I give her Dr. Goodpet feline digestive enzymes and that seems to keep things in check. I also give her a probiotic. The poop still stinks occasionally but it is tolerable.

So I sincerely thank the Young Again Zero Carb for helping me to get Ninja into remission - though long term I hope to get her over onto the wet food as a better long-term option.

Please feel free to reach out to me or PM me if there is any way I can help.

Melanie (and Ninja)

Hey Melanie!

Thanks so much for reaching out. I got really excited when Dara shared Ninja's ss with me earlier and I saw how quickly it helped her. I'm sure Onyx will respond a bit differently, but it still gives me so much hope for the transition. After learning this week just how bad the foods (mostly vet prescriptions) were that she's been on her entire life, my gut is telling me the food change is going to make so much difference. And she REALLY liked the YA sample I gave her today.

Sounds like she reacts the same as Ninja to the wet food. I just don't get it. Once she smells it from across the room, she runs like she's afraid for her life. Needles and lancets, no problem. Wet food, forget about it!!! lol

I'd been having trouble just getting Onyx's numbers to go below 300, but we finally started seeing more yellows yesterday. Well I think she's already leveling out from the last fast-track increase, but since I'm starting her on the YA, I think what I'll probably do is keep her at the 2U for a few more cycles, to see how she reponds. Though, the 2 samples are really small (and might not make any difference) and I won't have the full bag until Saturday, so maybe I should increase her tomorrow. Hmmmm. Oh Crap! I guess I'll see what her numbers look like tonight, then figure it out in the morning.

Okay, enough rambling. Thank you so much for your help, Melanie. And Congrats on Ninja going OTJ!

I'm a little late to the conversation but remember that the owner of YA does not have any as feds or DMB values for his food and so his claim that it is zero carb is unsubstantiated. Unless the proper tests are run, it's an unknown.

I also disagree with his "protocol" which has no scientific research to back it up. If I fed my cats as he suggests, they would look like blimps. Cats are like people....some will eat themselves silly.

Also remember that the scientific research done during the development of the TR protocol was based on feeding low carb canned or raw food...not dry food. So, currently, a requisite of the TR protocol is feeding a LC canned or raw food. Will the TR protocol work feeding YAZC? Don't know. I only know the research was based on feeding LC were/raw food.

I hope you will continue to try and get Onyx on LC canned food. In the long run, FD or not, canned food is better for the kidneys.