9/19 Zeke - PMPS = 217; +2.25 = 160; +3.5 = 140

Well, we have a problem. The last two days Zeke will not allow me to test him or shoot him. I'd been having trouble drawing enough blood and I guess I messed with his ears just one too many times. Now he’s hissing, growling and turning his head like he’s going to bite me. I thought that if I didn't mess with him for a few days he would get over it. The last two days I had my husband do all the testing and shooting in hopes that Zeke would settle down and allow me to resume the testing and shooting duties. I just tried to test him and he once again growled, hissed and acted like he was going to bite me. He’s had low numbers tonight and I am going to have to go to bed not knowing exactly where he stands. My husband took the last reading at +5.25, before retiring for bed. My husband is traveling on business the next two days and I don’t know how I’m gonna manage this if Zeke’s behavior continues like this. If I try and force him to let me test & shoot, I fear that he’ s gonna take the same nasty attitude with my husband. He actually did hiss at my husband at the +5.25 testing. It’s like he gets to the point where he’s had it and that’s that. This situation is adding so much more stress to an already stressful situation. I can’t stand going to bed not knowing if Zeke is safe or not but I really don’t feed that being forceful is the right approach. Hopefully he’ll cool down over night and I can at least do some testing tomorrow. But if that doesn’t happen then I don’t know what I’m gonna do.

This is a BIG PROBLEM. Has anyone on this forum had this issue before and if so how were they able to correct? Any suggestions on what I can do? This is really unbelievable. Zeke had been doing so well and now this. It bears repeating - this is a big problem!!!!

Previous day's condo

Re: Zeke - Growling and hissing problem

what you've described isn't common, but yes, it does happen. zeke may simply need a break from all the pokes or he may be telling you he no longer needs exogenous insulin.

i've seen several kitties (including my own) go from being extremely cooperative about shots and tests to running, hiding, growling, hissing, and ready to bite kitties. alex acted like this before she went otj (both times). she's normally very cooperative about testing & shooting. the ornery behavior was so strange and unlike her. it was almost as if she was trying to tell me "hey! I don't need this any more!" i've learned to "listen" to her over the last 7+ years since diagnosis.

it's possible zeke's pancreas has kicked into gear and he no longer needs shots anymore. if you look at the 2006 tab on alex's spreadsheet (lantus pre-TR) you can see she basically went from getting 0.5u bid to off the juice. she remained off the juice for almost 3 years. you *could* try withholding shots
for 2 - 3 days to see if his body can handle things on his own... presuming zeke is not a ketone prone kitty. however, you have to be aware there is some risk involved with skipping for a few days. if his numbers remain high after he clears the bounce which is likely to follow tonight's low numbers/ drop... it would indicate he still needs insulin and skipping will set him back a little bit while you're rebuilding the insulin depot.

it's also possible his ears are just sore from all the testing you've had to do lately. he may associate the poking and injection with pain. i know everyone talks about getting blood from the "sweet spot" on the ear, but you can poke anywhere along the edge of the ear... inside edge, outside edge, and the edge of the tip. maybe poking in another area will help??? are you using neosporin with pain relief to sooth and help heal his ears?

if i were in your shoes, i would weigh the options. since your husband is involved in zeke's care, discuss the pros and cons together and make a decision you're both comfortable with.


just my thoughts...

Re: Zeke - Growling and hissing problem

I need Zeke to come to me, otherwise it won't go well. So far, he's been distracted or uninterested in coming to the kitchen. What's better, skip the shot or give it late (when he comes in the kitchen)? Already it's almost 30 minutes past shoot time.

Re: Zeke - Growling and hissing problem - SKIP SHOT?

Well now Zeke's fixated on a neighbor cat that's outside our patio windows. Outside cats tend to get him worked up. Should I abort the mission and just skip the shoot?

Re: Zeke - Growling and hissing problem - SKIP SHOT?

Ok, he's in the kitchen and not worked up. Laying down. It's 40 minutes past shot time. Do I now just need to skip the shot? If I go forward, I need to test, feed and shoot. Advice would be greatly appreciated.

Re: Zeke - Growling and hissing problem - SKIP SHOT?

You could try a low carb cat treat, and to the approach and retreat method for a bit (approach the ear, and then retreat), and then when you get the test, give him the treat afterwards. I think some people use treats to help them get their much-needed tests. He'll learn to associate the negative with the positive reinforcement.

HTH

Re: Zeke - Growling and hissing problem - SKIP SHOT?

Well, I shot at +13. I really didn't like the idea of skipping a shot. Please let me know if this was ok or if I should not have shot so much behind schedule (for future reference). I'm gonna concentrate on giving Zekey a lot of hugs and scritches today and will back off on the testing. I will also be applying some Neosporin as Jill suggested (Thanks Jill for your response - it helped calm me down) to help heal his left ear which is the one I draw blood from. It does look like it probably would hurt.

Recap of today's plan: cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon cat_pet_icon


Please let me know what time I can shoot tonight. Can I do a +11.75 so I can start working back to our usual schedule? That's the most I can move the shot up, right? I don't think I could do a +11.5 but please let me know.

Thanks signed,
Stressing in Houston

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Growling and hissing problem; AMPS@+13 = 392

Does Zeke get worked up about the shots, too, or is it just the ear-pokes? If he tolerates the shots, perhaps you could shoot a reduced dose for a while and refrain from testing. This is not ideal, but at least you would get some insulin into him. (Some people, when they must be away from home and have a petsitter who does not test, will have the sitter shoot a reduced dose.) It looks like the issue here is regaining Zeke's trust. Perhaps an animal communicator could help. Several of the beans here on the board (Zener's Liz and Anne, for example) have had great success with animal communicators. They may be able to recommend someone.

Good luck. Sending calming vines to Zeke. Maybe a calming collar, like Rescue Remedy, would help?

Ella & Rusty

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Growling and hissing problem; AMPS@+13 = 392

Another thing... I'm not sure how you use the lancet when you test, however, if you're entering straight up and down, you may want to try going in at an angle, and only a tiny bit of the way, to get the blood sample. Afterwards, and if you don't already do it, put a small dab of Neosporin with Pain Relief on it after you've stopped the bleeding. This will help to deaden the pain of the poke, and hopefully make him more receptive for future tests.

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Growling and hissing problem; AMPS@+13 = 392

Thanks Angela and Ella, great tips. I really think the root issue is Zeke's left ear. He allowed me to hold, prick and get a reading off his right ear this morning no problem. Doing his right ear is awkward so I don't tend to use that ear. However, as I believe his left ear is just really sore and sensitive, and most likely spiking with pain when I touch it, I'll have to manage the awkwardness and test his right ear exclusively for a while. I'll apply the Neosporin so that it doesn't also become tender.

As for shot time, Zeke can be moody so his reaction is very unpredictable. Sometimes he tolerates, sometimes he tries to run away, sometimes (well, mostly, actually) he flinches and sometimes he hisses. :YMSIGH:

If only we could @-) @-) @-) @-) him and just get him to be a nice cooperative kitty. Then everything would just be

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Growling and hissing problem; AMPS@+13 = 392

With regards to shot times, this trick may work for you, but you'll have to adapt it to fit your own needs (if that's the correct word). I've been snapped/bitten by Blackie a couple of times during shot time, and what I've learned over the years is to have her lay on her right side, so that I can shoot on the left. I'm right handed, and with my left arm I can pin her head down with my left elbow and hold her skin with the left hand. It works for us, and Blackie's gotten used to it.

This may be something you may want try, or you can try another method. Just keep trying different things, and eventually you'll find something that'll work.

Be sure to apply the Neosporin with Pain Relief each and every time after you test. Eventually the ears get a bit tough, and over time he may not feel it any longer. I also test on the left ear since I'm right handed. I've tested on the right a few times, but because I can cradle her body with my left arm, it makes it easier for me to test her on the left, and secure her better if she decides to move on me.

HTH

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Growling and hissing problem; AMPS@+13 = 392

Hi guys .. I'm sorry you are struggling with this .. We never had a problem other then an occasional hiss from mocha at test times, but shot times were worse .. way worse .. It would take both peter and I to track her down, try to capture her, hold her, get bit, get scratched .. it was awful .. I cried for probably the first year giving mocha her shot that way but it just had to be done .. she was always fine right after the shots, like she didn't remember what a little fighter she was just two minutes earlier! I'd like to say it got easier for us, but it never did .. but we never gave up .. and now mocha's OTJ! I just wanted you to know I understand your frustrations with a cat who isn't cooperative ... Just hang in there ...

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Stalled AM shot by 1 HR. Now what PM shot?

The other option is to try poking the paw pad...personally, I'd think that would hurt, but I'm not a cat so don't really know. I do know that it's another "approved" test site..Just make sure if you do, you get a little neosporin on it. Don't want anything in the litterbox to cause problems later.

If you stalled by 1 hour this morning, you should do your PM shot no sooner than 45 minutes later than your "Usual" time..so if your usual times were 9-9, but today the AM was at 10, you'd want to do the PM at 9:45.....then tomorrow morning, back up another 15 minutes to 9:30, then 9:15 tomorrow night, and the following day you'd be back on your 9-9 schedule

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Stalled AM shot by 1 HR. Now what PM shot?

Some things you may do that could help:

1) get in some active play of about 15-20 minutes several times a day. It helps build the bond between you two, burns off some energy, and may help the insulin work better

2) Dissociate touching the ear from being pricked. Pick some random times to just cuddle/pet/touch the head and ears without testing, so he can learn it isn't every time.

3) Consider using a burrito wrap if he continues to fight you as follows:
Burrito wrap:
Place towel on floor.
Place cat halfway between the ends.
Wrap each end around the cat, including paws.
Additional restraint may be done by kneeling straddled over the cat and compressing your thighs along the cat's body and slightly sitting over the cat to reduce upward motion.
Test from there.

4) Wear suitably protective clothing - long sleeved heavy shirt/sweatshirt and denims. If he learns that biting makes you go away, he gets reinforced for doing that. If you wear protective gear he can't bite through, you may be able to continue the testing process.

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Stalled AM shot by 1 HR. Now what PM shot?

Laura

I'm so sorry you've been having problems with Zeke. I don't know if this will help you: Testing and Shooting Tips. Although the diagram does show the sweet spot, as Jill said, you can poke up and down the edge, on the inside edge, etc. I switch ears with each poke even though Gracie's right ear bleeds better. One thing I found out after we'd been doing this awhile is that the lancet has a bevel and it bevel must be facing up so the sharpest part of the lancet enters first and you get a nice, clean poke the first time. If you aren't warming his ears, try to do that even though it's still "summer". That might help you get that tiny sample you need for a Micro. Try to be quick and light handed with the lancet and, as someone else said, it helps to poke on an angle.

Are you using 31g syringes? They are the smallest. I started using 30g and Gracie would "meep" when I injected so I switched to the 31g. It doesn't seem they are that much smaller but evidently they are. Also...the bevel on the syringe must be up so the sharpest part enters first.

Hang in there; I hope he will let you test and shoot. You are doing great; and remember...he'll feed off your anxiety so try and stay calm. Breathe...play zen music....sing softly. And...you put food down for him while you're shooting? Sometimes that will distract them while you get the shot in.

Re: 9/19 Zeke - Stalled AM shot by 1 HR. Now what PM shot?

I also found this youtube video from one of our members whose cat was particularly difficult to test. He's actually being quite good in this Hometesting Video

Re: 9/19 Zeke- +9.5= 262; PMPS = 217; Active Cycle Maybe?

I've never had to try this, but I understand the concept. By using a clothespin or clip of some kind, it kicks in their instinct to "freeze"...like when they were kittens and momma wanted to move them. Might be worth trying if nothing else works

[youtube]T9TmmF79Rw0[/youtube]

Re: 9/19 Zeke- +9.5= 262; PMPS = 217; Active Cycle Maybe?

That's crazy - thanks for the link. Didn't seem to bother the cat much. Hmmm, I'm kinda curious to try but Zekey would make someone pay afterwards. He tends to keep notes.

Re: 9/19 Zeke- +9.5= 262; PMPS = 217; Active Cycle Maybe?

I know...it looks almost too good to be true, doesn't it?? But like I said, it's based on instinct. If you watch a momma cat moving her kits, as soon as she grabs them by the scruff, they "freeze". That's how they can be dragged around by momma without getting hurt.

If you try it, let us know if it works!

Re: 9/19 Zeke- +9.5= 262; PMPS = 217; Active Cycle Maybe?

I tried that once on my GA Teddi Bear because I had to go out of town and she wouldn't let Mike give her fluids alone. Well.....it didn't work. :lol: :lol: :lol: What did work was just having my neighbor come over and pet her while he put in the needle.

I'd have to see his +2 before I know if he might have an active cycle. How did he do with testing/shooting?

Re: 9/19 Zeke- +9.5= 262; PMPS = 217; Active Cycle Maybe?

I used many of the tips I received and so far it's going well. I'm checking the bevel on the lancet, I'm applying the Neosporin with pain relief and I'm giving a treat. I also bought a pair of glasses with lights on outer sides of the lenses so that I can see even the smallest speck of blood in an effort to minimize re-pricking. His +2.25 = 160. I gave him probably about 2 1/2 Tbls of food at shot time (including a little 5% LC). Was waiting to see some major movement before feeding him more.

I have not had time to surf LL posts to see how everyone's doing. How's your eye? Much better I hope. Hope you're not dealing with any significant aches and pains from your car accident.

Re: 9/19 Zeke - PMPS = 217; +2.25 = 160 (easing down)

Great job!! I'm glad some of the tips are helping.

That's enough of a drop that you might see an active cycle.

I'm doing great, thanks. Everyone was moving slow so it was just a minor fender bender.

Re: 9/19 Zeke - PMPS = 217; +2.25 = 160 (easing down)

Well, this cycle is moving very slowly. It took a little more patience on my part to get Zeke's reading @ +3.5 = 140. Had to bribe him with food and canned salmon. Trying not to get him worked up again. He is a little stinka. :twisted: Once he flips the switch it can take a while to get him back. Usually the PM huge drops are very early in the cycle. I wonder if it's safe to go to bed early tonight? I'm very tired as I've only had about 1 1/5 hours of uninterrupted sleep (twice) in the last 24 hours.

Gosh, the 0.75u is so hard to measure. I can't imagine how 0.1u is measured. Glenn and I are going to have to compare notes on what 0.75u looks like so we can be consistent with our dosing.

I'm so sorry you are tired.....you had a busy night last night. I think we've all learned to grab an chance you can to nap.

Many, if not most, of us use calipers to dose accurately with. It takes the guesswork out of it and allows two people to be extremely close in their dosing. This post on Dosing with Calipers will help.

Since he's coming down slowly, why don't you grab a nap, check him at +6, and maybe you can call it a night?

Should I leave food our for him? He's very hungry tonight - keeps hanging out in the kitchen - and when he doesn't get food when he wants it he becomes grumpy and even more uncooperative.

Sure...leave food out.