Reducie **FAT 1.50u**3/14 Rocky PMPS 313 +2 295 +4 222

Good morning,

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=115372

Well, as you can see, Rocky is bouncing very badly after spending 4 hrs in green numbers in the overnight hours. I am exhausted. I shot the same dose, 1.75u, through the bounce this AM. I moved his dose back 1/2 hour last night so he had an overlapping insulin dose. So, instead of giving him the shot at 10pm last night he got his evening shot and food at 9:30pm.

Because I am so tired and I don't know if I hold out any hope of catching up on my sleep today, I will not be moving his shot time back even more tonight to 9pm. I will wait until Saturday morning and move his morning shot to 9am.

The other thing is that Rocky will get 3 mini-meals this morning instead of 4 because I fed him the one mini-meal in the overnight hours to stave off a hypo.

Rocky's Recap for yesterday:
AMPS 289 +2 310 +4 255 +8 316 +10 307
PMPS 353 +2 169 +4 41 +4.15 51 +5 59 +6 82 +7.3 220 +11 591

Dose help Re: 3/14 Rocky AMPS ☛553☚ +2 417 +4 368 +6 414

Even giving Rocky the same 1.75u insulin dose, or shooting through the bounce, for his AM shot, has not really brought his BG numbers down any during this AM cycle.

I think that I will NOT move his PM shot back to 9PM tonight even though I would like him back on this schedule. I may even wait until Sunday morning to do a 9AM shot.

For tonight, I am thinking of giving him the same 1.75u dose, without shaving anything off for three reason: Number one, his shots were overlapped last night which *might be* the cause of his one dip to 41. Number two, he is now eating 2 cans of food per day vs. before when he was eating one and one half can per day. And number three, his liver has failed to recognize the reducies so far, every single time I have given them.

I *could* try shave some off of his dose but it would not be through counting drops. Instead, I would use the lines on the syringe to guide me. Right now, the 1.75u line is enveloped inside of the syringe plunger at the very top of it. I could instead push the syringe plunger further up so that the line rests at the bottom of the plunger.

I definitely think that 1.50u, right now, is not enough insulin for him. I do wish that I could find a way lessen the severity of his wild liver bounces though.. In looking at some other charts I see their cats going into the pinks when they bounce, but not so much into the reds, and hardly at all into the black, as Rocky continues to do.

What are your thoughts and opinions?

Re: PM dose help 3/14 Rocky AMPS ☛553☚ +2 417 +4 368 +6 414

I'm not as experienced as many on here, but I think most people with bouncy cat feed foods with at least some carbs. I see Rocky with a fast onset, quick drop, and then BOING. He needs some carbs on board early in the cycle to help flatten out that onset. That's just IMO.

I would take the reduction. A 41 is pretty low and with that fast drop it's why Rocky is bouncing so high. Worst case the reduction fails and you bring him back up in 3 days. Again, just my opinion. I couldn't test much during the day, so I might be more conservative than some.

Good luck, whatever you decide.

Re: PM dose help 3/14 Rocky AMPS ☛553☚ +2 417 +4 368 +6 414

A couple of thoughts....

Shooting through the bounce was prudent. That was a truly yucky AMPS. You can certainly hold the current dose if you choose. You may need to get a couple of tests just to make sure Rocky doesn't surprise you. Or, you can lower the dose. Typically, most people will shoot through the bounce the next cycle and then reduce.

Moving a shot time by 30 min. doesn't usually have much of an effect. I really doubt it was why his numbers dropped. With numbers this high, shooting a little early isn't a bad idea. (Shooting an hour early wouldn't be a bad idea either if you need to make up more time.)

I'm not sure what this means:

And number three, his liver has failed to recognize the reducies so far, every single time I have given them.

Click to expand...

Do you mean that you reduce then need to increase the dose back up? If so, it's not uncommon. Right now, Rocky is still getting used to spending time in lower numbers. The more time he spends in the lower ranges, the more his liver and pancreas will stop overreacting.

Re: PM dose help 3/14 Rocky AMPS ☛553☚ +2 417 +4 368 +6 414

with a 41 I would take a reduction.

i agree about the carbs being helpful with bouncy kitties, but i know you want to keep using this food. it is a change that might improve his blood sugar, however.

i also doubt the drop had anything to do with 1/2 hr change in time.

Re: PM dose help 3/14 Rocky AMPS ☛553☚ +2 417 +4 368 +6 414

Here's how I think of it: it's just like when you go to the chiropractor and he or she puts everything back where it's supposed to be and then you hurt (I call it "hurts so good") and then your body, usually your back and/or neck, are so sore for so many days you think the chiro messed you up more and you are in danger of being even more messed up when this is usually not the case at all, it's just that your body was so accustomed to being out of whack that when it got put back into the right place it had trouble adjusting to that. It's like the muscles around your spine have gotten so used to holding your spine in the wrong place that when it got maneuvered back into the right place the muscles went into overtime trying to push it all back into the accustomed place, even if it is the wrong place. This is what causes the soreness after a chiro treatment if you've been out of whack for a long time. Once your muscles and spine get used to being in the right place, the pain subsides and everything stays put. Gosh, I haven't been to the chiro for a really long time & I really miss it...but I digress...

So I have always kind of thought of this business of bouncing and liver action & the pancreas adjusting all the same way. The body, and the liver, & the pancreas, have to learn that these lower #s are safe, that there is no danger, and that this is the "new normal." It takes time, b/c all the systems in the body have to adjust to being safe as opposed to "being messed up."

So there's another one of my brilliant unscientific scientific theories that I used to be pretty famous for around here...LOL.

I agree w/Sienne that shooting thru the bounce was prudent. When I have to make choices like this or shooting low #s I have to consider how I can handle things depending on the choices I make, things like (1) is it workday or can I stay home and monitor Tawny's #s, (2) can I steer her #s w/HC or whatever if she goes low (like I did the other day), (3) is she eating well, etc. Sometimes you just have to do what you have to do based on the rest of your life.

Like our beloved Barbara Benner would often say, sometimes "it just is what it is." & you gotta do what you gotta do. Just like me leaving kibble out for Tawny this morning. In light of her recent bout w/pancreatitis and going off her food, she had to eat. Something. Regardless. So I did what I had to do, and it is what it is.

Desi

Re: 3/14 Rocky AMPS 553 +2 417 +4 368 +6 414 +10 363 +11 371

Sienna, do you mean that most people when they shoot through the bounce do the same dose both in the AM and PM, and then reduce the insulin dose the next day?

Re: 3/14 Rocky AMPS 553 +2 417 +4 368 +6 414 +10 363 +11 371

no - it's typically only one shot. especially when a cat is clearing bounces quickly. you don't want to continue giving a dose that you know is too much because if the bounce clears (and Rocky is bouncing) combined with a too-large dose, you can see numbers dropping too fast and hard.

Re: Reducie **FAT 1.50u**3/14 Rocky PMPS 313

Hi Julie,

Because Rocky had come down to 313 by his PM shot tonight I decided to reduce his dose, but I made it a FAT 1.50u. I gave the shot at 9:30pm, so did not move it forward to 9am tonight.

He still gets 3 more mini-meals tonight so I think the chance if very high that he is going to climb right back up there to those yucky blacks and reds through tonight.

About feeding Rocky a little bit of carbs- I am not so against that, it's just that I'd rather them not be corn or wheat gluten in his food. When I first had him on grain-free Wellness in the hospital his need for insulin went up. I switched him to grain-free Core and his insulin need went up. It wasn't until I gave him the NVIV that his insulin requirement came down.

He has been bouncy like this since he was in the hospital at the beginning of December 2013. We are going into almost 4 months since Rocky was diagnosed with diabetes.

My friend who had Rocky before but did not take him to the vet suspect that he had diabetes in early November as he was peeing very large volumes all of the time.

Re: Reducie **FAT 1.50u**3/14 Rocky PMPS 313

i wonder if his needs for insulin amounts on those foods really changed, or if the testing being done at that point just happened to catch particular BGs that were higher. i'm thinking that was before you were hometesting - and you can see just from the last 24 hr period that you might be able to catch Rocky at any number. So if the vet happened to test when Rocky was high, he may have thought it was from the particular food, when in fact he's going high from bounces with the zero carb food.

we've seen some cats improve the bouncing by going to a higher carb food - in your case, that might only be 4-5% carbs. there are a lot of foods in that range. the comparison that Dr. Lisa gives on the catinfo site is that a mouse or bird is around 7% carbs, and the carbs consist of whatever grain is in the prey's stomach. sometimes the higher carbs means more insulin, but more insulin isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if it stops the bouncing. i think you've been following Davidson's ss - you can see that going up in dose allowed the numbers to flatten out, then she could begin to reduce the dose slowly.

Always the numbers that are important are the blood sugar numbers, not the size of the dose.

i saw on your post yesterday, i think, you mentioned about staying up to feed him mini-meals. i had a Petsafe 5 compartment feeder that was a lifesaver when it came to feeding when i wasn't home. of course they can be used at night too. We loved that particular feeder - i mention that because a few people have complained about their feeders being frustrating after they got other brands. In this one, as long as you get the feeding tray fully seated in the base, it never failed me.

Re: Reducie **FAT 1.50u**3/14 Rocky PMPS 313 +2 295

Is this the one that you had Julie? I think maybe I should invest in it.

http://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-5-Meal-El ... pet+feeder

Re: Reducie **FAT 1.50u**3/14 Rocky PMPS 313 +2 295

yes, and i really liked it. as you read the comments online, i think you'll find the only criticism is that it didn't fully rotate and open. we just always put the feeding tray in the base, then pushed the manual button to rotate it one slot. as long as it was fully seated in the base, it worked perfectly.

i found it locally at a PetCo. When i went back to work, i set it to open every day at +3 for punkin, both am and pm, then if he looked like he was aiming to be low, i'd add more times and put food in more compartments.

Hi Tina,

I use the Pet Safe Feeder as well when I am at work. I have not had any problems with it. It is easy to program. One of the members recommended it to me as well.