7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 330

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=121198 (I hope I did this right)


Morning one and all! (I am keeping the good out of that morning as Skooter gave him a scare last night and this momma is exhausted from watching him and waking up to do testing during the night)...

I am hoping all the additional testing will help people help my cat. While last night probably would not have been scary for most others, after he threw up everything and his numbers dipped down to the 190s (I have only seen him to go the 100s twice before), I became a wreck and wanted to make sure his numbers didn't go down even more.

I am not sure how reliable my information on how he is acting is anymore as I seem to read into everything he does.....He is not acting that much different than his "new normal" which I consider around the time of his diagnosis...As stated in the previous post, he is using the stairs to get onto the bed and will sleep part of the night with me (he used to sleep the whole night)...he seems a bit more restless at night than he used to.

Chris has mentioned that there were other people on here who have cats with IBD and have been able to transition them to wet food. I am not at all opposed to transitioning Skooter to another food (wet or dry), but my fear in the past, is that he has always thrown up anything else I have given him. Granted I have not tried any new foods in about 5 years as he was doing very well on his Royal Canin HP and there wasn't a need to try new foods.

I prefer to test new foods out on the weekends, when I know I will be around to watch and monitor him. I do have Friday, Saturday and Sunday off (yay 4th of July!!!) and am open to trying just about anything for my lil bug.

Please let me know if I do not put all the information in here that you guys need to help me. I am sure as I get more used to posting on here it will become like second nature.

I cannot say it enough, THANK YOU so much to everyone for the support you have given, along with patience and knowledge....I feel like I have found the perfect place for Skooter and I to be. I also am lucky that I have a very supportive vet who so far, has been thrilled with my use of the FDMB, she strongly encouraged me to seek this place out.

Happy Friday (for those who have a long weekend!)

~ Molly and Skooter party_cat


***One thing I have noticed in the last day or two is that he will eat some of his food, then go drink some water, then eat food and then go back for water...I don't recall him doing that a lot before, but again, as I said, I have been overreacting to every little thing he does, so it is entirely possibly that he did this before and I wasn't paying attention. But now that I watch his every move lol***

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

It's going to take a while for Skooter to become regulated. How long will depend upon him and his needs. In order to help bring the #s down, it's best to have him on a low carb wet food only. Dry food only turns into sugar, and is never good for diabetics. You will need to find a food that will help him, and hopefully not make his tummy upset. If you're concerned about vomiting, I know that some people give their kitties Pepcid to calm their kitty's tummy down, and for that you may want to ask advice on it as I don't give mine Pepcid at all.

I hope that someone with knowledge of IBD will be along to help you with your question. You're doing a great job! Keep it up!

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

Hi Molly. What is the protein source in the HP? Often they advise a novel protein or grain free for IBD and pancreatitis. Since Skooter is doing well with IBD you might want a food with the same protein source to see if that continues to help yet brings down the BG. That is a big jump from the AMPS to the 1.75 so don't be surprised to see him bounce right back up. I hope not but if so he will adjust and go right back down to better numbers in no time.

Have a great day!!

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

So I cheated and looked on google .....

This is what their web site says.....

Key Benefits

Soy protein is composed of low molecular weight peptides
Gluten Free
Highly digestible with a very low antigenic potential
Enhanced levels of B vitamins and amino acids to maintain the barrier effect of the skin
Nutrient blend controls the movement of food through the digestive system
For cats with food, skin and gastrointestinal allergies
Taurine protects the heart
Rosemary extract reduces allergies
Mixed tocopherols protect the eyes

Doe that help with possible alternative food suggestions?

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

I don't have advice for the IBD, but one thing you can do is go to the top of the Lantus forum page (up by where you click on "newtopic") and do a search for IBD. It will pull up any discussions containing that "word." Looks like there are several peeps here on the boards that deal with this challenge. Kangaroo might be on the menu! I hope you find something that works for Skooter.

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

Hi Molly!

Welcome to Lantus/Lev Land! I'm glad you found us - we'll be able to help you learn what you need to help skooter. he sounds like a sweetheart.

one thing that people told me when i started that helped me - your cat didn't become diabetic overnight and won't get regulated overnight either. it's a marathon. As you learn more it won't be so scary.

As far as Skooter dipping lower than he's used to, we consider low numbers to be less than 50. Hopefully that will ease your mind when you see something in the 100's that you're not used to seeing. Before he became diabetic, his blood sugar would've been in the normal range, 40-100, most likely. The goal of the Tight Regulation Protocol is to get a cat's BGs into normal range (50-120 if on insulin) and give the pancreas a break. The pancreas of a cat is unusual in that it can heal and begin putting out insulin again.

That's part of the emphasis on getting cats onto low-carb canned food. Trying to get a cat's blood sugar down while they are on dry food is a bit like a human diabetic trying to get controlled while they're having cake and ice cream with every meal.

Dr. Lisa, a vet who sometimes posts here on FDMB, has a site with great info on cats. http://www.catinfo.org/ There is a link on the right column about transitioning dry food kitties to canned food. I'm not finding the Royal Canin HP on Dr. Lisa's site. http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf Most of the RC that are listed are 10-20% carbs, which is considered medium/high medium range. Most people feed in the 5% range.

There are several people on here with cats with IBD - i will let them suggest foods.

As far as dose goes, whenever people are feeding dry food it can really increase the insulin needs. I wouldn't decrease the dose or start over at this point. He got into the 100's yesterday. However, if we can get him transitioning to canned low carb or raw food, he'll likely need to have his dose decreased then, depending on what numbers you get as you make the change. Because of his IBD and diabetes both, you'll want to go slow with the food transition.

I'd encourage you to get a +3 today to see where he's going with that drop this morning.

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

Unfortunately I am unable to get home during the day today to test him :/

However, I should be home and available to test for the next three days.....

Other than the +2 marker are there specific times I should be going for a number?

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

Hi and welcome to LL!

Excessive drinking and peeing are signs of unregulated diabetes. Once BG numbers start to come under control the water intake should slow too. Low carb food is essential for controlling feline diabetes, many cats have gone off insulin in weeks after transitioning to low carb wet food. BG As others have said wet food is best for cats, dry food had way too many carbs leading to FD and too little moisture leading to kidney disease. Dr Lisa has some great tips for transitioning.

For the IBD one of the first things to try is a novel protein food, but read can ingredients carefully! Other proteins may show up down the list. Soy is not recommended for cats, especially those w/ IBD. Raw food is often recommended too. Try to find a food that has limited ingredients w/ a unique protein as the first ingredient.

Cats do not naturally produce the enzymes necessary to digest plant proteins. Here's a really good article on IBD.

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

Hi again Molly, and glad to see you posting here in Lantus Land!

Hopefully you'll continue to get some ideas on foods, but I do know that usually, novel proteins are one of the first things suggested...protein sources the cat has never eaten before

What's listed on the ingredient list on the HP is all this stuff:
Rice, Soy Protein Isolate Hydrolysate, Chicken Fat, Natural Flavour, Powdered Cellulose, Soybean Oil, Dried Beet Pulp, Fish Oil, Calcium Sulphate, Calcium Carbonate, Monopotassium Phosphate, Potassium Chloride, Sodium Silico Aluminate (Zeolite), Fructo-Oligosaccharides, Salt, Taurine, Borage Oil, Vitamins (DL-Alpha- Tocopherol [Source of Vitamin E], Inositol, Niacin, L-Ascorbyl-2-Polyphosphate [Source of Vitamin C], D-Calcium Pantothenate, Biotin, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride [Vitamin B6], Riboflavin [Vitamin B2], Thiamine Mononitrate [Vitamin B1], Vitamin A Acetate, Folic Acid, Vitamin B12 Supplement and Vitamin D3 Supplement), Choline Chloride, DL-Methionine, Marigold Extract (Source of Lutein) and Trace Minerals (Zinc Proteinate, Zinc Oxide, Ferrous Sulphate, Manganese Proteinate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulphate, Manganous Oxide, Calcium Iodate and Sodium Selenite). Naturally Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols, Rosemary Extract and Citric Acid. Approximately 341 kcal/cup, 412 kcal/100 g, 83 g/cup - See more at: http://www.royalcanin.ca/index.php/Vete ... Sxyc2.dpuf

See the first ingredient? That's the ingredient that the food contains most of...and it's RICE! Cats are obligate carnivores...their intestinal tract isn't designed to be able to digest grains and it looks like the only "meat product" is chicken fat

I don't remember ever seeing a cat sitting in a rice paddy (or in a corn or wheat field) waiting for his dinner, unless it was a mouse hiding in the field! :lol:

If it's been a long time since you've tried transitioning Skooter, I think it's certainly worth a try. You'll want to go very slowly, especially with the amount of insulin you're on, and you'll want to see how he does with the IBD and all.

You might want to consider a raw food with a novel protein like rabbit or venison...or there are quite a few canned foods that are novel protein diets and also lower carb on Dr. Lisa's list

I know IBD is a terribly frustrating and hard to treat disease, so I truly hope you can find something that works for Skooter as well as being better for his diabetes. About all you can do is experiment and see what happens

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

Other than the +2 marker are there specific times I should be going for a number?

Click to expand...

We like to see at least 4 tests per day
AMPS and another test somewhere around +5 to +7
PMPS and a "before bed" test (in case you need to set an alarm for more tests later)

The +2 is just a neat little test to get because it can be your "early warning system" that Skooter may be dropping lower later on in the cycle, so you would want to get more tests in, or if you can't, leave out some food so if he does drop lower, he can get a snack. Most cats will go looking for food if they get into lower numbers

There's really no "bad" time to get tests....The spreadsheet is like a puzzle, and the more pieces you can fill in all over the place, the clearer the picture is going to be. Some days you might want to get a +5...the next day a +8..next day a +4....there's no such thing as too much data so you just have to figure out what schedule will work best for you to get the most tests in that you can at different times. That may mean testing a lot more on weekends, or changing your shooting schedule so you can get a test before leaving for work, and getting another as soon as you walk in the door. It really varies on each person's ability to be home to test

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 *** IBD HELP ***

the reason i was suggesting the +3 was because he dropped 200 points between amps and +1.75. Cats don't always drop at a constant speed, but i was suggesting the next test to see if he'd slowed down some.

Is Skooter an only kitty? Does he graze or just eat at meal-time?

people do follow TR who work - there are ways to work around the workday schedule. Most people who work full-time get more evening cycle tests. Many cats go lower in the pm cycle anyway, and since Lantus dosing is based upon the low that the cat gets, we like to catch that low number. Let's see what he does tonight - he might very well bounce from the speed of that drop this morning. If you're not familiar with bouncing, here's a post that describes it: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=46012 (second post in thread.)

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282*** IBD HELP **

I could seriously just cry right now. I cannot believe the outpouring of support I am getting from all of you.

I think a college doctorate course might be easier than what I am navigating on here. I am determined to learn as much as I can about this and help my cat, and hopefully one day other cat owners. I look forward to the time when I can laugh and say how paranoid I was in the beginning.

Skooter is an only kitty....he doesn't do well with other animals...it took us about 4 years until we felt comfortable leaving him and my sister's two dogs alone in the house roaming free (we pet sit for each other)....there was a lot of sniffing through baby gates at first until we got them in the same room with one another lol) He used to eat all of his food at once. Now he eats about 1/2 to 3/4 of in the first sitting and the grazes for the rest of the day/night on the last bit....sometimes he eats it all, sometimes he doesn't.

julie & punkin (ga) said:

one thing that people told me when i started that helped me - your cat didn't become diabetic overnight and won't get regulated overnight either. it's a marathon. As you learn more it won't be so scary.

Click to expand...

Thank you so much for that, as it may seem like an obvious thing, it is a great reminder that I desperately needed.
Dumb question, what is a novel protein? Also, is Skooter's +10.5 a good number? I am trying to get him back to shooting times of 630 am/pm, so I will be shooting him around 715 tonight (moving down in 15 minute increments). So I don't freak out again tonight (yeah, right!).....I am assuming I should still shoot 5U for now, but if he stays around the 260s to 280s, what should I expect for evening tests? (I am trying to avoid a major break down if he goes into the 100s again). I know that 100s are good, I think my concern is, since I am not used to him in the 100s or really having AMPS/PMPS #s that are closer to normal range, I am not sure what to expect throughout the night...I will keep the 50 number in my head, not that I anticipate him going lower....but will plan on 5U, unless I see a suggestion otherwise...

thanks again everyone! I am looking forward to getting to know all of you (and your fur babies)!!!!

I think I covered everyone's questions.....thanks again for all the support.....

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282*** IBD HELP **

A novel protein is a protein source the cat has never eaten before.

Most cat foods have beef, chicken, turkey or fish....some of the more unusual are rabbit, venison, quail, pheasant, buffalo/bison and kangaroo, so it's less likely that Skooter has had them in the past

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321

I know exactly how you feel about Scooter's numbers dropping so rapidly. Even though they are still high (in the 100's), you are afraid they will keep dropping and you won't be able to stop it. The first time Oliver dropped into the 40's, I gave him Karo syrup and then rushed him to the Pet ER at midnight. His numbers were coming up by the time I got him there. The next time, I rushed him to my regular vet who gave me a lecture about testing him too much. I ignored her advice, of course. I continued testing, but I became more confident about my ability to stop the drop.

It takes about a half hour to stop the plunge with high carb gravy and/or Karo syrup. And you have to keep testing after that because the effect of the HC food will eventually wear off. Do you have a syringe in case you have to squirt the gravy or syrup into his mouth? You really can bring his numbers up if you have to. And the people here will help you if you have a crisis.

Oliver hasn't had any insulin for 19 days. Tomorrow will be the last day of his OTJ trial (hopefully.) I don't think I could have gotten him to this point without the support I received on this forum. I needed the courage to "shoot low" to give his pancreas time to heal and I don't think I would have had that courage without help from the wonderful people here.

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321

Horrible mom here....I have not gotten my supplies for hypo yet....

The vet said I could use sugar water if needed.....my plan was to get supplies tonight between work and home and then got stuck at work way later than planned so had to get home to test, shoot and feed Skooter.....

Now the "excitement" of last night and the lack of sleep is all hitting at once and I really don't trust myself to drive....after testing/shooting/feeding tomorrow I plan to run out to get more test strips (for a person who said she would never home test, I sure have gone through a ton of strips since June 18 lol) and get some syrup. I do have a few extra sryinges from his IBD medication I can use if need be.

I thought there was something on here that was like a grocery list for hypo supplies, or am I just imagining that?

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321

All you need for a hypo kit is some high carb food (like Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers), Kyro syrup, some syringes, and plenty of test strips.

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

So Skooter's PMPS +2 is 330.....very slightly higher than his PMPS

However...he has been drinking a bit of water today....

Should I be concerned?

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

This fur momma is shot herself.....

Utterly and completely exhausted and feeling another mini (or not so mini) meltdown coming on.... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I am just hoping and praying Skoots is ok (as he is drinking more water than normal), but his +2 is only slightly higher than his PMPS....

I am pretty sure he hates me now with all the testing I am doing and I wish I could explain to him why I have to do it.....tomorrow, after some sleep, we shall try again to get some samples from his left ear......


Sweet dreams to one and all.....

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

Drinking a lot is a typical symptom of diabetes. It can also indicate a kidney problem. Has your vet checked his kidney values lately?

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

I believe they did when he was diagnosed in April and if I remember correctly all was well.....


Sigh.....I am just all of a sudden having a really bad night and just want to cry.....I am guessing (hoping) it is the exhaustion from last night just catching up with me.....

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

We totally understand Molly!

This diagnosis is overwhelming enough...and you have a dual diagnosis so are trying to juggle even more!

It will get better..we promise!

On the testing, you might try desensitizing Skooter. The ears don't have many pain receptors, but most cats just hate having their ears fooled with. Decide where you want to do your testing, and as many times a day as you can, just take Skooter there and give his ears a quick rub, and then give him a yummy treat (low carb of course...a lot of us use freeze dried meat) or give him some love or brushing or whatever he really considers a great reward. As he gets used to being in that "testing spot", and getting a reward for letting you play with his ears, he'll stop paying so much attention to what you're doing. It really does work! After awhile, a lot of our cats come running when they hear us opening the strips!

If you can get another test in before you go to bed, that's great, but since his +2 is about the same as his Pre-shot, he's probably not going to go a lot lower (at least not low enough you'd need to worry)

You must remember to take care of yourself too or you won't be any good to Skooter!

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

So
AMPS = 455
+1.75 = 259
+10.5 = 282

PMPS = 321
+2 = 330
+3.75 = 364


So while he is still in the 300s, this is kinda of what I want to have happen, right? He is holding somewhat steady with is numbers?

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

Welcome Molly & Scooter to the best place you never want to be!

We have been here in LL for over three years now and our kitty Zener was diagnosed also with IBD over a year ago (and early kidney disease too). We never went through all the biopsy testing, only CT scans, to confirm whether Zener had IBD or lymphoma, we would have to travel a couple of hours away for that and thought it was just too much for our guy.

After his FD diagnosis, we tried every possible wet food we could buy in our small town (and on the internet!) to find something to transition him from kibble. It was an ordeal and seems like another lifetime. He only eats three types of wet food and two are relatively high carb - 12% Fancy Feast Chicken Florentine, 13% Purina Pro Plan urinary formula, and on rare occasions, 2% BFF chicken/tuna chuckles. We use lots of Fortiflora at times for flavor.

For his IBD, he is on a "cocktail" of meds - ondansetron for nausea, cerenia for inflammation and pain of the intestinal/tummy kind, cyproheptadine (cypro) for appy stimulation and recently we added Budesonide, a steroid. We are still trying to work out the right amount on insulin increase to keep him in healthier numbers with the addition of a steroid. We also added gabapentin very recently to help with pain in his back and hips. We also did acupuncture for a few times but no lasting effect for him. We know we would not still have our guy if not for all the great experience here for FD and for IBD and lots of other things our kitties deal with. He has good days and not so good days, and still loves to do yard patrol in his backyard, sleep in sunny spots, have laptime and cuddle time with his beans, and watch the neighborhood walk by from his living room window.

If there is anything we can do to answer questions about meds, foods, IBD or anything, please let us know! We would love to pass on what we have learned from the wonderfully generous experienced people here in FDMB and LL.

Welcome, welcome, welcome! :YMHUG:

Anne

Re: 7/3 Skooter AMPS 455 +1.75 259 +10.5 282 PMPS 321 +2 33

Hi Molly!

I know you are fast asleep but I wanted to welcome you and Skooter to LL.

The B12 shots you are giving are likely for the IBD and are cyanocobalamin. Methylcobalamin is also B12 but is given in oral form for diabetic neuropathy and also for chronic kidney disease. Cyanocobalamin is not usually absorbed well orally, thus the shots.

Here is the link to the Hypo Toolbox you asked about. I always make sure I have at least 100 strips here; when I'm getting close to 100, I restock. No one wants to run out in the middle of the night for strips when their kitty is dropping.

I have had several friends whose cats have had IBD and they have responded very well to raw diets. You can buy them in pre-made patties such as Natures Variety. They are low carb and have some novel proteins. Prescription diets tend to be very poor nutrionally.

His dose was raised way too quickly but with the steroid and dry food, it's possible he might need it but we just need to watch and see what he does in his next few cycles. Just remember that if you decide to change food, you need to do it slowly. Just stopping dry food can cause numbers to crash.

We are happy you and Skooter found us and are here to answer your questions.