4.16 Frankie PMPS 225 Feeding Help???

The boy is back.

He was constipated (go figure)

Doc gave me a laxative to keep his stool moving, however the stuff is loaded with Carbs. A partial list of the ingredients include (its called Laxatone) Corn Syrup, malt syrup and molassess. The Doc knows he is diabetic. The description on the tube ( I was told to spread 1" of the stuff on his arm and he will lick it off) is Lubricant for the Elimination of and Prevention of Hairballs.

To avoid him getting constipated again, does anyone know of a low carb substitute?

Also, while he was at the Vet they did a urinalysis which came back (apart from the obvious, he is diabetic) that he has a propenisty to produce crystals in his urine, which can cause stones and pain while urinating. The doc told me that the only way to prevent his getting urinary blockage (which has to be very painful, a few of my human friends had kidney stones) was to feed him, the following (slowly incorporating it into his diet and then go 100%)
Hills Prescription Diet CD and/or Royal Canin Urinary SO,

When I eyeballed the ingredients, is saw, gluten (obviously high carbs) The Vet is at a loss as I discussed with him that these foods have to be high carbs based on the ingredients, (6.4 As Fed, wet, per this printout of the food that one of the Vet Techs gave me to read) as to how I can minimize Frankies risk of Urinary Blockage wnile managing his managing his diabetes.

I never want to hear again, the screams and howls that I heard the other day which was caused by him not being able to pass stool. I can only imagine how much pain is involved in not being able to urinate (I'm a guy)

Anyone have an ideas as to substitutes that would help mitigate his high level of crystals in his urine.

 

Hi Jay,
First off, my heart felt condolences to you and Frankie. I read what happened but have had little time to post due to our circumstances. Im very sorry. (((((jay))))) ((((((frankie)))))))
To make it harder, poor Frankie throws you for a loop as well. I certainly hope he IS feeling better and continues to under your wonderful care.

Regarding the constipation, I would not use the stuff your vet gave you (right off the shelf of petsmart?). Vaseline would be a better option and virtually the same with not as many ingredients. If frankie is constipated, enough to have him spend the night in the hospital, I would think lactulose or miralax would be recommended until you see him producing stool on a regular basis. Why not ask your vet about those options?

As for the diet, well of course the vet will recommend prescription brands. My vet STILL recommends Latte be on a kidney diet, despite the fact that the grains will throw her into a SEVERE ibd flare, and the carbs will skyrocket her already skyrocketed BG's. I dont know specifically which foods you would want to use. It might be a great question to ask over on health, if you have not already.

I certainly hope you and frankie have a peaceful weekend. you both deserve it.

 

Glad Frankie is home again. I don't have experience with the medical issues, I wish I could help.

I think some people use Vetbasis laxative as opposed to Laxatone, but I don't know if you can still find that. I give KB small amounts of Miralax twice a day to keep things soft and prevent constipation.

 

Jay-
Hank has a history of FLUTD (feline lower urinary tract disorder) and is still prone even though he hasn't had a flare up in a long while. (ANTI-JINX).
He had several bouts of extended uncomfortable issues and one major emergency where his urethra completely blocked. It can be very dangerous.
We did those prescription diets back then, but ultimately i transitioned into feeding him natural premium foods hoping to better his overall health instead.
I was SO worried when we got his FD diet how to find foods that worked for both. Turns out many of the things good for diabetic kitties are also good for urinary health, canned food, extra hydration. I started adding drops of water to his wet food even then. But I also continued feeding dry back then along with the wet. Now that we've cut THAT out, it will only be that much better for his urinary health also.
The other big things to watch for are phosphorous in the foods...try to stay as low as you can. I have the PH range somewhere in my old notes..i think low to mid- 6 range or less is what you want to shoot for. Just check the amounts for these on the cans as you do the protein and carb%. You can achieve the same PH levels using commercial foods. I also avoid the fish flavors as much as possible.
During the Melamine pet food scare a couple years ago, the maker of Hank's S/O prescription food was on the bad list..and though it wasn't for the specific food we were on, it was made in the same factory. I recall the vet at the time not being very happy with some of the mans. responses when i checked on it. I decided then to suspend Hank from the RX diet, at least temporarily, and just continue feeding him the canned and dry my other cat ate. He has not had another flare up since.
Just like vets want FD kitties on prescription diets, they recommend the same for this. The medicine in the foods is not the problem and could be good and help them....its' just the CRAPPY food it comes on.
I think this lo-carb high protein will cure many ails...There are just these couple extra things to watch in addition.

So glad Frankie is back home and doing better.

betty

 

A couple of thoughts and a correction...

Gluten is not high in carbs. It's a protein source but it's one that many cats are allergic to. That's why most of us avoid product with gluten.

I agree about using vasoline vs. Laxatone. One of the members here found a lubricant of this type that was sugar free. To be totally unhelpful, I can't remember who it is! (Sorry!)

Are you feeding Frankie any fish based foods? Those may be ones that you want to eliminate right off the top. They can add to crystal formation. As Betty noted, adding water to Frankie's food may also help.

Beyond this info, I'd also suggest cross posting on Health. There are a large number of people who routinely check the Health Board and several of the vet techs who are members read the posts there regularly and may have some helpful suggestions.

 

Jay, you can buy Miralax powder at any pharmacy or supermarket. I add 1/8 of a tsp to Putty's food once a day. He was impacted quite a long time ago and I was doing it twice a day at first. Make sure you add a little extra water to the food.
If you think he needs more it is fine. I do not know where you get the lactulose.

 

thanks

 

Jay,
Lactulose is prescription. I think miralax is a good place to start (but let your vet know), IF frankie is eating and you can get some extra water in his food. I gave some to Latte once in a few tsp of babyfood. Ya, that didnt work so well for us. :sad: I give lactulose because Latte is an unreliable eater....she might not get it all in/or enough water with it.

I kind of figured acidic and fishy foods werent good. Glad someone could confirm it. those of us with CRF cats use Janet and Binky's food chart to check for phos levels. That would be a good place to start looking.

I would suggest wellness chicken or turkey as a good place to start (low carb/lower phos). But I know some people get very concerned with the cranberries and a few other things added in there when urinary health is an issue.. I dont worry, as long as its getting eaten - my main concern. I cant remember the phos levels of some ff, but its also a common food given to CRF cats because generally it is lower in phos. I know you were having issues with it. Have you tried the pate - plain ol chicken, chicken/liver, turkey, beef, etc?

 

adding water to the same low carb food i feed my diabetic has kept one of my male civvies crystal-free for almost 4 years. he had blocked from calcium oxalate crystals before that. i make his food as soupy as he will tolerate.

miralax works very well. like miriam, we started with 1/8 teaspoon mixed in food twice a day. it draws water into the colon, so make sure you compensate by mixing extra water into his food.

vetbasis is an excellent hairball gel, but hard to find. haven't tried vaseline...

 

Jay, we use miralax-1/8 tsp every day since ny civvie was constipated--It really works great & wont hurt the cat..
Water is added to all their food to keep things running smoothly, just a few drops to make it a little less dense.
It works--I have lactulose from the vet & it is sitting here...It worked at the critical time, but havent had to use it since...
Glad Frankie is home!

 

Betty, you have told me here, what to look for, and what you did to deal with this, however you never mentioned what food you had fed, Mftr/Brand and Flavors. Can you share that with me.

 

I don't have any real knowledge of this subject, just a couple of experiences to share (and really no lessons learned from them yet either, but I'll share anyway).

Before I adopted Lucy, she had trouble with urinary crystals. She did have some other health problems at the time too, so I don't know how that affected her urinary situation. The vet put her on Royal Canin urinary S/O (dry) as a preventative. She was also eating Fancy Feast wet. When I adopted her, I kept her on the same diet until she became diabetic (2 weeks later). Then I got rid of the S/O and switched to Fancy Feast and EVO dry, and eventually off the EVO and just onto wet. She has not had crystals since. I have to believe that the wet food diet helped, but it's also possible that her crystals were caused by her other health problems and that they would have gone away anyway.

My current vet recommends an all wet food diet for cats with urinary crystals or a tendency toward blockages. My coworker uses the same vet, and after her male cat blocked my vet insisted that she change him over to wet food. She did order a prescription wet at first (I don't know which one), but when he wouldn't eat that, the vet told her just to go to the store and just find any old wet food that he would eat. It ended being FF Elegant Medleys. The vet was happy with that, and it seems to have solved his problems.

My understanding is that there ARE situations in which the pH levels in the prescription urinary foods can be useful, but that in many cases just increasing the moisture level will help.

 

Jay Tugger also has FLUTD and I just feed the LC FF and a few other varieties from the list. I add water to their food. I mostly feed FF Classic Chicken Feast, Turkey and Giblets Feast, Chunky Chicken, Chunky Turkey with FF Flaked Fish and Shrimp thrown in occassionally. I've eliminated beef for the time being so can't help you on those flavors but the Classic ones were in the cabinet before I took it off the menu. Right now I'm more worried about Tugger's FD than his FLUTD and as others have said, the diets are very similar. Tugger's peeing often enough that I'm not worried about that right now.

Adding water to his usual foods and making sure he's peeing often should help once you've gotten him feeling better from this.

Oh, I've tried Wellness but mine don't like it much. It's a good one if Frankie will eat it though.

 

Until a few weeks ago, when I had seen Chubby not eating very much or at all, I was feeding both Chubby and Frankie FF Beef Feast, Turkey and Giblets Feast, and Chopped Grill, (since Frankie was DX'd almost 5 years of the same 3 flavors)
all low carb wet as you know. As they both starting eating less and their appetites had changed, only 3 weeks ago I started experimenting with different low carb wet foods, Over the years to entice them to eat, I would sprnkle a handful of Evo on top of the wet.
As of yesterday when I picked Frankie up from the Vet, I was given and told that a diet of only Hills C/D or Royal Canin SO, would work in controlling his propensity to increase the crystal formation (which tested at <4, which I was told is high).

We are clearly on the same page but in reverse. I will try to keep him on either of the C/d or S/o foods and see how it effects my maintenance efforts of his sugar levels. 2 cycles so far and he is doing better then when eating FF, much to my surprise. The jury is still out though as 2 cycles doesnt give me much history.

The last time I tried Wellness both of my guys looked at me like I was nuts and walked away from their bowls. I ended up throwing out a whole lot of cans of Wellness.

 

I'll try to moitsten his wet even more then it already is. In the past however when I'd open a can of FF and it had a lot of liquid, my two guys would eat and throw up real quick. When I started draining off some of the liquid, they were able to keep the food down.


Until a few weeks ago, when I had seen Chubby not eating very much or at all, I was feeding both Chubby and Frankie FF Beef Feast, Turkey and Giblets Feast, and Chopped Grill, (since Frankie was DX'd almost 5 years of the same 3 flavors)
all low carb wet as you know. As they both starting eating less and their appetites had changed, only 3 weeks ago I started experimenting with different low carb wet foods, Over the years to entice them to eat, I would sprnkle a handful of Evo on top of the wet.
As of yesterday when I picked Frankie up from the Vet, I was given and told that a diet of only Hills C/D or Royal Canin SO, would work in controlling his propensity to increase the crystal formation (which tested at <4, which I was told is high).

We are clearly on the same page but in reverse. I will try to keep him on either of the C/d or S/o foods and see how it effects my maintenance efforts of his sugar levels. 2 cycles so far and he is doing better then when eating FF, much to my surprise. The jury is still out though as 2 cycles doesnt give me much history.

 

All I have to add is that once I started adding water to Shadoe's food and now Oliver's, Shadoe refuses to eat if there is not enough water in her food.
After Shadoe's p-titis attack, I had started the water in the food to increase her water intake and we just stuck with it.
I've taken her completely off dry foods, and have tried all sorts of wet, now sticking with the LC ff and mostly friskies turkey&giblet with some friskiues whitefish&tuna.

 

in looking at the Janet & Binky charts, C/D is 22% carb and S/O is 4%. With that in mind, I would probably try the S/O first if he likes it. Maybe you CAN have it all.

http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html

 

I did check the chart last night when I got home, and I'm going to give it a try tonite, mixing 1/4 a can S/O per the vet slowly moving to 100%, 1/8 of tsp of Miralax (how does one measure a 1/8 of TSp when the smallest measuring spoon I have in the set is 1/4) and a little mineral oil.

He'd better keep this sh-t down.

Given that its that low in Carbs, the right size dose comes into play. Which I dont have at low BG Preshots

 

If this were me Jay I would go with the S/O I have had 2 males block before and we use both at our clinic but have the best success rate with S/O and prescribe it more then c/d plus s/o is lower in carbs its a really great food for clearing crystals it cured both the males I used it on at the time

 

Hi jay-

Been busy with the party boy today. Sorry just now getting back. I'll try to help best I can, but Hank's FLUTD diagnosis was 5+ years ago and while I researched like crazy back then, it's not as fresh as it once was. I will get some links for you.

here are SOME good guidelines:

Try to keep their weight down.
mini meals are preferable.
canned food
Do anything you can to encourage him to drink more.
- extra drops in his food..not alot, maybe a teaspoon or so..you'll find the consistency he likes best. Hank likes his slightly mushy, but too not like soup.
-bring him to his water dish or dish to him. I used to tap on it if he was nearby. I also offer to 'freshen' it up for him. 'You want some fresh???'
He loves this. I hear fountains are great for some kitties
For food: lower phosphorous ( i think they say <200..but it may be <220's?? VERIFY THIS YOURSELF - I am not POSITIVE>
- try to keep their target PH 6.0-6.5 (6.6?) i think with 6.4 being optimum AGAIN- it's been awhile- PLEASE VERIFY THIS!
-low in magnesium and ash
-avoid fish flavors
I try to stay with the premium/natural brands as well. BUT that's me.

Back then, I had this one issue to deal with, PLUS a multiple cat household w/different needs and palates. Trying to find something to work for all the above was process of trial and error. I read lots and lots of labels, and made phone calls like I am doing now for LC/high protein foods. Some of that would simply not be useful to you as back then avoiding dry was not part of my criteria. PLUS many of those have had formula changes since we tried them and I would no longer rely on any of that information being accurate. There are canned foods I tried then I would not try today due to carb %. I never fed FF or any of those so can't comment.

Now we are in a whole other place w/ FD & trying to figure out diet for ourselves just as you are. I of course have stopped feeding Hank dry (his staple food prior to FD DX was Innova red). Things have changed now & what worked THEN doesn't work anymore for us. I am hardly an expert on FLUTD diets...& especially that ALSO work for FD kitties. I am in the midst of trying to sort all that out myself.

Check this thread from recent discussion on main board... http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10836&p=107177&hilit=flutd#p107177 - I commented on this very thing and how you get criteria-'d into a corner.

The FD became priority, I just still try to incorporate as much of the other as I can as we try new things. But as I mentioned earlier, many of the ideas overlap and are good for both.
For us, getting off the S/O turned out not to be a problem. I primarily fed S/0 dry to Hank back then, along with an assortment of canned. BUT he also got into Elvis' Innova bowl. I figured he was receiving at least some benefit of the RX food even if not feeding on it exclusively. Ultimately, even after taking him off he hasn't had any urinary flare-ups. BUT then he got diabetes!
My hope is that the all-canned diet will help both and his overall health in general. So far, so good.

I can tell you he still eats Wellness canned now (chicken, turkey, & chicken/beef flavors) which he ate before. These seem to work for both issues and he likes them.
Merrick Cowboy Cookout has been a hit...seems to be good for both. Hank I don't think is sensitive to beef so this works for us. It gets rotated in but not a daily. There are several we have tried and tossed...still trying to figure what he likes. I still try to avoid the fish flavors.
OH, i will tell you that regular EVO Cat/kitten is one of the lowest carb foods out there, but has really high phosphorous & high calories. Hank doesn't like it anyway, but if you fed that, as example, I would feed it sparingly. Some of the 95% Evo varieties have much less phosp., but not as much protein. It's all a balancing act.
You might also try Nature's Variety INSTINCT- (not the Prairie version)

There are lots of discussion about this out there, both on google & even on these boards. Just put FLUTD into the search box.

Here are a few links I can share..not conclusive but lots of good info. for you to read through INCLUDING some with food lists, etc.. But YOU are going to have to experiment to see what works best for Frankie. You've got one up on us having figured out how to feed diabetes.
Hank has become awfully picky as we've been in this Sugardance. He is still a carb-addict at heart. I sometimes have to bribe him with 3-4 pieces of evo crumbled onto his wet food when he's acting ambivalent and finicky.


Some link's and info. pulled from internet and old files:

http://catinfo.org/feline_urinary_tract_health.htm dr. lisa page on cystitis/ feline lower urinary tract
http://catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm
[url=http://www.felineoutreach.org...//www.felineoutreach.org/Education/FLUTD.html[/url]
[url=http://cats.about.com/od/lowe...ts.about.com/od/lowerurinarytr ... urinpH.htm[/url]
[url=http://pet-diseases.suite101....t-diseases.suite101.com/articl ... l_cystitis[/url]
[url=http://www.merckvetmanual.com...w.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index ... 182907.htm[/url]
http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canned.htm
[url=http://webpages.charter.net/k...p://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/canfood.htm[/url] low in phosphorous- check dates
[url=http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fh...ww.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/urinary.html[/url]
[url=http://www.catdoctor.com.au/h...w.catdoctor.com.au/health_info ... flutd.html[/url]

http://www.felineoutreach.org/Education/FLUTD.html

(copied from internet- not sure date)
Current feeding recommendations for FLUTD cats are as follows:

-Feed diets that ensure adequate acidification. However, do not add urine acidifiers to diets that are already acidic. Over acidification can cause metabolic acidosis, resulting in impaired kidney function and mineral imbalance that includes potassium depletion. Also, urine that is too acidic provides a good environment for another mineral deposit (oxalate crystals) to form which can also cause urinary obstruction.
-Provide fresh water at all times. The more that a cat drinks, the less chance crystals and uroliths (small mineral stone like deposits) will form.
-Restrict dietary magnesium intake to 40 milligrams per 100 kilocalories and phosphorus to 200 milligrams per 100 kilocalories if adequate urine pH (6.4 or less) is maintained.


We have lots of bases to cover with our boys, huh?

OK, hope this helps.

get to our party,

betty

 

Maybe I can have it all.,I have only 1 can of S/O. Lots of C/D. I'll hold it till tomorrow evening and go get some more Monday night when I get home.