7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144, +4:85, +5:85, +6: 111

this morning 2 hours before amps got the last Animonda chicken and calf. After that the whole day has been Animonda for neutered cats.

About yesterday, well not surprise I am living with a master of manipulation but I think we all are! Cats are cats, what can you do. :lol:

Marje, about Facebook. I just go there more often since it's easier to access from everywhere and sometimes people reply quite fast. I though it's more or less the same people here and there and I post our ss every time I am in doubt about dose. I didn't realize it could be a problem, since another member at this Forum was the one that advise me to join the Forum on FB. But I got what you are saying.

I try to follow the Protocol as close as I can, but I think I mention before,not sure where, but it's quite hard to get Bruno to stop bouncing. I think the 10 days at the vet was a complete mistake, since they changed insulin and then changed his doses every shot time, and skipped many times and give the pill instead, and of course, his numbers were all over the place. Since then, it has been quite a challenge to try to keep him stable AND lower his numbers.

In any case, we are here... trying! Thank you all for the support and advise! I don't know what will have happen to us if we didn't find this forum.

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Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193 Lowest number of the day?!

there are several facebook groups - at least 4 that i'm aware of. i'm not sure which one you got that advice on. i've seen people giving advice who only have a short experience with feline diabetes with their own cat. it takes more than a little while to be able to customize advice from the protocol for someone else's cat and i'm not always confident people feel the burden of responsibility when doing that that would be appropriate.

i think most everyone can help you pull up low numbers, but i've seen advice on some of the facebook groups that was unsound. i've also seen people give advice without looking at spreadsheets and i think that's a huge mistake. don't assume that everyone giving advice has the experience or knowledge to do it well. that's my 2 cents worth. i would only use the facebook groups for socializing or non-dosing advice.

regarding what you were told specifically about reducing the dose to reduce bouncing - it's true that less insulin will reduce bouncing. absolutely. a diabetic cat not on insulin doesn't bounce - they stay high and mostly flat. but that's not the best thing for the cat. The goal of the Tight Regulation Protocol is to put a cat into non-diabetic blood sugar numbers, 50-120, to allow their pancreas to heal and to begin producing insulin again. Bouncing isn't a bad thing - it's the cat's body responding to lower numbers in order to respond to a perceived danger. Unfortunately, a cat that's gotten used to 300's and 400's or more, might even bounce from hitting 200's.

Most of the time if a cat is put back into green numbers over and over again, the bouncing will lessen and stop. when the cat's blood sugar flattens out in the less than 120 range, then the healing occurs. it doesn't make any sense to me at all that getting a cat used to yellow numbers and then trying to get them used to blue numbers, etc., would prevent them from bouncing when they were exposed to the new lower range of blood sugar. i've never seen a person be able to gradually condition a cat down in that way, although i have seen people suggest it.

what does work is to give enough insulin to put the cat into green as much as possible until the cat gets accustomed to it. Looking specifically at Bruno's spreadsheet, i'd go back to 0.75u with his next shot. He was getting much better numbers with that dose. he's been basically over 200 since the dose was reduced. the bouncing is kinda irrelevant - it will stop when it stops, but in order for him to have a chance of going off of insulin, he needs to be in that range rather than in high numbers. Dosing with Lantus is based off of how low a given dose will take a cat, and it looks like right now, with Bruno, the 0.5u is only getting him to about 200.

does that make sense? please ask if you have questions and i can try to clarify if it's muddy.

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193 Lowest number of the day?!

It absolutely makes sense for me Julie, and that's the reason I increased in the first place, actually without advice from 0.5 to 0.75u

I know the bouncing is normal and it could go very high and ver low. Like today our amps 414, going down during the day but pmps is now 193. I also know, this for my own experience, that Bruno is not good at handling a no shot and that 193 is safe to shot. So, I shot same as the last 3 days 0.5u, and I am waiting for his response to this.

For me the strangest thing is that this is his lower number of the day?! I mean nadir yesterday was 270, today his last test was at +8=232.

This is our first time with something like this.

Anyway, I shot, I'll wait for 2 hours to test again and again at +2. Hopefully, we will get good numbers tonight and tomorrow morning.

My goal is to help Bruno heal. I got what you mean about FB. I am in 2 groups, one that is linked to this Forum and another one, I am also at the Forum and FB for CRF, since Bruno has renal failure on an early stage. But I get what you mean. Thank you for the advice.

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193 Lowest number of the day?!

we had a discussion last week about shooting low - which means most every preshot over 50ish. I'll link it here for you to read - it's very counter-intuitive to think that shooting a 60 will mean that a cat might only move 8 points over the next 12 hours, when the same dose shot at 150 means the cat might move 75 points, but that's how Lantus works. It's at its best shooting in low numbers. Take a peek and see what you think: 7/12 Darin/Charlie shooting low.

You can look at Charlie's spreadsheet since then and see what's happened with Charlie. He's bouncing today, but he's had some great days in green numbers since last weekend.

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193 Lowest number of the day?!

oh - and the 193 is the lowest point so far today because Bruno is clearing a bounce. See how his numbers have declined all day today? started at 414 -> 315 -> 232 -> 193. That tells you that his body is clearing out the hormones and stored sugars it released earlier.

i don't remember if i already gave you the post that explains Bouncing or not so will include it here.

by the way, you can always ask people to point you to where the Protocol talks about whatever they are suggesting. There's no basis for a "rebound" check as long as people have started with an appropriate dose on Lantus, are hometesting, and have made methodical dose increases in appropriate sizes. We do sometimes suggest the option of reducing a dose if a cat arrives here on a large dose that wasn't arrived at appropriately, like dose increases were done in 1-2unit increments, for example, and their numbers on the spreadsheet tells us that overdose might be a possibility. Data doesn't lie, so when we have data, we can tell what's going on almost every time.

looking at Bruno's spreadsheet, even though he had a rocky time at the vet's, his dose increases recently have been done appropriately (good for you for increasing to 0.75u when you did!) and there's nothing in his data that says he's overdosed at all.

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193 Lowest number of the day?!

Hi again, Julie! I read the posts on Charlie and saw his ss, I wish we were there already! I read the information about the bouncing, and today gave another read at the general information, and glossary.

I test again in around 5 minutes (+2) and see if his numbers keep going low. I kind of learn that if the numbers keep going lower, I can feed 2 tbs of low carb wet food and test again in +2, or +1 depending on how low he is going.

I've been shooting 0.5 7 times, 3 and half days. I would like to keep this dose for at least 5 days, depending on his numbers, is that ok?

To be honest it easier also to shot a steady 0.5u with half units marked that 0.75u. The food he is eating is one flavor 1.1% and same brand but other flavor 1.4%, strange but the 1.1% raised his numbers faster and higher than the one with more carbs, not sure if that's normal.

Thanks for everything! As I said before, don't know where we will be now if I didn't find the forum!

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144

let's see what Bruno does before the next shot. if he were mine, unless his numbers go down much farther today, i'd go back up to 0.75u. His numbers were much better on it.

i know what you mean about measuring the dose - it's very hard to measure 0.25u increments! :lol:

that 144 says he's still clearing the bounce and on his way down. maybe he'll get into green numbers today.

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144

Yes, maybe he will visit mr. green :mrgreen: but only at nadir, he;s not rushing anywhere. I will test again at +4 and see how he is slowing down.

I will keep posting but if I get another high number in the morning, I will increase to 0.75u (which means anything in the middle between 1 and 0.5u :lol:, but ding our best to measure, counting drops.

Thanks for staying around with us

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144

Nice bounce break there Bruno!!

I agree with the others that he was doing better on the .75 so I'm glad to hear you're going to go back to that (unless of course he drops a lot lower on this cycle)....and yeah, we all hate those .25 doses because they're so hard to keep consistent, especially since the lines on the syringes aren't consistent either!

Keep up the great work Ana!!

Just for clarification....the Facebook group the comments she posted the other day were from is NOT the group connected with this message board. It was another group.

The group tied to the message board has over 1300 members. The one she got that advice from has 95 and is dominated by one person.

The problem we need to figure out is making the message board more friendly towards Smartphones, tablets and iPads since most of the complaints I hear about on the FB group is that the message board is too hard to work on using those kinds of things.

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144, +4:85

visiting Mr. Green @ +4 (85) I think I will need to keep awake to keep testing. :mrgreen:

And yes, Chris, the thing is FB is easier to browse and to get replies faster usually.

BTW, I saw China's ss also, how do you add exercise? is this like playing time? or how can I get Bruno to get some exercise?

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144, +4:85

I bought China this cat toy called Da Bird

She LOVES it and it gets her running and jumping and chasing, so she's burning calories. I'm also working on getting her leash trained so I can take her outside for walks (quite a few people here have got their cats used to wearing a harness and leash....although mostly it's not the bean taking the cat for the walk, it's the cat taking the bean....LOL)

Anything you can get that will get Bruno moving more will help burn calories

Re: 7/20 Bruno. pspm 193, +2: 144, +4:85

i had been told that, chris - i'm not blaming anyone, just saying that for dosing advice, it's better to come here, and be certain the person helping you has really looked at Bruno's spreadsheet. have you told Robert about those comments? maybe there is something he could do to make it more smartphone friendly.

exercise is also good for helping the cells be more receptive to insulin. we don't emphasize that enough, but just like with people, exercise is good for diabetics (and the rest of us too! HAHA).

Ana, are you able to get any tests in during the day cycles during the week, other than at preshot?

With today's 85, that changes my earlier advice about increasing the dose. i think it would be smarter to hold the 0.5u for a little bit longer and if you could get any tests in during the day - random times are fine/good - that would let us know a little bit more.

Increasing the dose:
Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.
when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.

Click to expand...

regarding the speed of replies, if you put a question mark in the post icon, you'll have an answer quickly on here as well. or write the question like "dose advice?" in the subject line. if there's nothing to signal that you have a question it definitely is going to take longer because we look for those posts first.

Hi, Julie, I cannot test more during the day, because I work, usually between 9-10 hours or more , that's why I do not test a lot during the week, and that is also the reason I want to be very conservative about Bruno's dose. I try to make adjustments during the weekend that I am home to test, or at least at night.

2 am here now, I know I should wait for 3 consecutive tests with increasing numbers, but I see he is fine, will leave food and go to sleep. I only have 4 hours of sleep left, before going to work.

as you get a little more experience and can predict what he is likely to do at night, you won't feel like you need to stay up so late every night. I always got a +3 on punkin and could tell by it if i needed a +4.5, which for me was right before bed, or if i needed to set a cell phone alarm and stay up later.

thanks for explaining about your schedule - you've got some good reasons for staying with the 0.5u. we can tell a lot by the evening cycle tests. there are other people here that follow Tight Reg that also work. Some people move shot times earlier so that they can get a +2 before they go to work. When you compare a preshot number to the +2, that can help you predict what might happen for the rest of the cycle.

Food is your main tool for dealing with low numbers, so figuring out how Bruno can eat during the day while you're at work is going to be important.

I'm going to guess you might not have access to timed feeders in the Ukraine. Those are awesome if there is any way for you to get one.

Another way to get food to be available to Bruno later in the day is to freeze cat food in ice cube trays or cupcake pans and leave them out for him to eat when they thaw. If you do some "catsickles" of his regular low carb and some of high carb, then you can choose what to leave out before you go to work.

This is something you'll want to try out when you're around so you know that he's eating them. Some cats will eat them while they are still frozen, some won't touch them. It's something for you to think about.

sleep well!

Yes, my schedule is a problem and it will be worst after summer ends. Now I can have a very "relaxed schedule" of 9-10 hours at work. Mid' August it will be between 10-11 hours at work plus 1-1:30 minutes drive to and from office. Which means that the 12 hour shot will be extremely difficult for me. I know you cannot rush things but I need to get him at least more stable before that happens.

Now, I shot him right before leaving home, to be able to make it on time for pm shot, and many days I am there just in time. If I shot earlier, let´s say one hour before, I know @7 pm I will only be leaving work, if I am lucky.

I read about the food, and Hillary, another member, recommended me to freeze the food, and I have been doing that for now. I also got a feeder in the US and got it in Ukraine (you cannot imagine how that was, sent to my brother in CA, my brother gave to my cousin that was visiting that weekend, my cousin took to Mexico where a friend from Ukraine was on vacation and gave it to her and she brought it to me!) but, there is something not working. I program it and when I push the start button, it just spins the whole 4 meals at a time. I am writing to the company to find out what the problem is