11/16 Webster PMPS=446 +2=189 +3=200 - Your thoughts?

Websters numbers seemed to drop off quickly last night after giving his Lantus.

This the same thing happened the other night. I followed some great advice here (special thanks to Julie for sticking around until late) and he seemed to level off. Last night it happened again and I followed the same advice and it seemed to work.

You can see in my spreadsheet that he dropped to 45 a couple days ago after getting him back from the Vet. Are these extreme drop offs a normal part of a "bounce"?

Also, hes taking Calv/Amox at the time of his insulin. I take his BG and then give him his insulin and then AB. I'm told is likely compounded with sugar (It does smell like sweet oranges) could this be contributing somehow?

It scares me to see his numbers fall so fast.

 

Unfortunately I'm really short on time right now, but wanted to pop in...you are doing a great job with managing Webster! He definitely is a bouncy kitty, and that is not all that uncommon for newly diagnosed kitties. Most kitties do eventually start to level off, but some (like Gabby and Gracie) just love to dive and then bounce. It's part of the dance, and each kitty's dance is a little different.

With Webster's big drop last night, he was still in very safe numbers, so I initially would have tried some low carb food to try and slow the drop and maybe even set up a surf. The data-gathering you are doing is fabulous so far - you'll be able to figure out what works best for Webster with all that info you're grabbing.

Have a great day, guys!

 

Mike

Some cats are champion divers. Did you retest that 189 last night? Any time you see a number you don't expect, it's best to recheck.

Webster might be one of those that likes to be dramatic at onset. I will agree with you that the dives are scary. I find dealing with flat, low numbers much less stressful than those big dives like that. Also the big dives tend to start the next big bounce. IMHO, many cats bounce harder from the dives than lower numbers. And it could also be that Webster started to clear the bounce but just didn't get there. That also happens at times.

So, if that was an inaccurate test, is it unusual? No...we see cats dive like that more than we'd like to. Take a look at Mikeys SS. Taking them down in dose, as you can see, can flatten them but it leaves them in high numbers sometimes. With Webster's DKA history, I don't think that is a good idea. Also, take a look at Gabbys SS. Sienne knows her really, really well and can get her stopped and surfing. But she holds the dose. Every cat is different...you'll see that a lot here.

Just for general information, the way Lantus works, one shot builds upon the previous so you get a cumulative effect. that is why we hold doses on an increase....to give it time to build the depot and start seeing thst cumulative effect. It doesn't work like that on a reduction and that's why we don't like to hold reductions too long if we don't see decent numbers quickly. But with a new kitty, we need to see what number he is at when he does clear.

I know the number drop was scary. I think it's fine that you tried to slow him a bit with the Temptatiions but I wouldn't give honey/karo the first dropping number when it's still close to 200. I'd retest in 30 mins just to see how much you slowed him with the treats and then decide if you can use LC. Sometimes they will slow themselves. Sometimes not. That's where "know thy cat" comes into play as you gather data. Once you know him, you might find LC works just as well to slow him.

I think you did great last night. Two things I like to pass on about FD is its a marathon not a sprint and it can also, for some, be :



And that was just to make you smile.

 

Thank you for responding. What do you mean by "set up a surf"

Thank you.

 

Thank you Marje.

I really wanted to take his BG for the third time last night. However, I needed to get to sleep before I seriously lost my mind. It has been so stressful for me over the past week. Webster was hospitalized for 4 days (DKA) and we thought that we were going to lose him. Upon coming out of the hospital on Sat his bg dropped to 45 and I spent the next 11 hours until 3am watching his BG's. After 3 hours of sleep I gave him his insulin in the morning and drove home 8 hours with Webster in the car.(We were out of town visiting my wives family when all of this happened) Came home, gave a shot and watched his BG drop quickly once again. OH NO, another repeat of the previous night. I stuck around, fed him treats, left food out, and checked him again. Had to go to bed before I seriously lost it. (Oh, and I came home to a nice surprise but that's an entirely different issue viewtopic.php?f=28&t=128575)

I was unable to see Mikeys SS. Google said that I needed permission to access it.

Thanks for the information and smile at the end! I'll keep testing and posting on here.

 

Mike

Try this rendition of Mikeys SS

I have been following the adventures of Webster and know you had some serious sleep deprivation. I am totally in board when Caregivers need to add a few carbs to keep kitty safe at night so they can sleep. Ive done it myself. the early weeks of FD are particularly exhausting and you need to take care of yourself, too. And for those who work, they must be able to get some sleep to function.

You've had a lot on your plate between the DKA, low numbers, and the drive Home. So grab the sleep when you can inc naps and we will take it a cycle at a time

 

Not to mention the flea infestation of your house! I think a professional job is called for.

Ella & Rusty

 

Being the caregiver to the aptly titled, "Diving Diva," during the early days I was know to comment, "Sleep is vastly overrated." I probably made that remark because I wasn't getting any sleep.

Mark -- could you check to see if the the antibiotic is in a syrup base? If so, it's probably contributing to the high pre-shot numbers since, if I recall, that's around the time you're giving Webster his antibiotic.

 

Thank you for your following along and you input. I appreciate your understand.

Luckily my wife and I both work from home so it enables us to take better care of him. Unfortunately this whole thing has flipped my world upside down and I haven't been able to focus or work for a week now. I hope to get back on track tomorrow morning. It's been an exhausting and stressful roller coaster ride so far.

 

Yes, it keeps adding up..

 

It has the consistency of syrup and smells like sweet oranges. Although I haven't tasted it, I'm willing to bet that it is. I've been aiming to contact the vet. He only has another 4 doses left so I guess we will see.

 

Mike,

Glad to see Webster is home and doing well. As someone that recently went through DKA and FHL with JuJu, I can tell you it does get easier. With each shot/test you will gain confidence and become more comfortable handling the drops and low numbers. Having the support of FDMB will help you get through the difficult times. Also, a huge help for me was, Ava, my wife. At first she was nervous about poking JuJu with needles and lancets but she jumped right in. Wouldn't you know it? She's a natural pro!

Just because our kitty got really sick doesn't mean the world stops turning for us. We still have work, bills, house keeping. Having someone to help lighten the work load makes it easier on everyone. I know it's difficult but do your best to get some rest. It's always good to recharge.

I'm not sure if you picked up any LC yet but JuJu is doing really well on Friskies Pate. I grabbed a variety case. The mixed grill is 11% carbs, the rest are under 10%. For HC, JuJu responds well to FF Gravy Lovers. I got a variety case of the HC, as well. They're all around 18%. Remember to add a bit of water to his food.

Keep up the great work. Webster will be back to happy kitty soon! :smile:

 

Thanks for stopping by! My wife too has been a tremendous help. If not for her I'm certain that I would have seriously gone crazy over the past week, especially the last 3 days.

When I first heard insulin and syringes my first reaction was "oh no". 4 shots later and we feel like real pros. He rarely notices that he was even stuck. It turns out that the insulin injections were the easy part. Now, syringe feeding antibiotics - that has proven to be a challenge. I'm still trying to get over having to prick his ears several times per day. :-|

I picked up 5 different varieties (6 each) of OTC low carb can food today. My hope is that he loves at least one of them. I also picked up several cans of classic friskies pate.

Thanks for the support.

 

Webster is having a great day so far. His numbers are on the high side but his BG seems to be holding fairly stable. He has been wandering around the house and grooming himself as he once did. He slept peacefully, stretched out for part of the day.

I'm really dreading tonight. Historically, over the past 2 days the fast dropping BG scares the Bejesus out of me. Hopefully tonight won't be the same story.

 

Mike

I'd give him a break until +10. The +10/+11 tests are very helpful because they tell us if the numbers are dropping going into the next pre shot. When we start out as new members, we are careful about shooting dropping numbers if they are lower but as you gain more experience, shooting dropping numbers (above 50) and when it's safe (you are rested, have supplies, etc), can allow you to take advantage of the carryover and overlap that lantus and levemir can give. That's how we get those nice, long flat cycles like Remi is now having. If you post a +10 test and then put the "?" icon on, someone can help you with interpretation of the cycle. Don't forget that if your post falls down to the bottom, please just open it, click on "post reply" and type "bump" in the text box and hit "submit" and that will put you back at the top. You can also put words in the subject line as you did this morning. There are several of us who scan the list many times a day so that catches our eyes; but there are also a ton of very experienced members who can also offer good suggestions.

I can't overstress the need for you two to take care of yourselves. If he comes down at night and you need to do some nighttime testing, you can either trade nights or trade tests during the night....whichever works best for you but Matt is right....those of us with partners in this dance are very lucky.

 

Thank you for this. So that's what the question mark is for. I'm sure that I will be using it in the future.

I will start testing at +10 +11 also perhaps tonight if I can get home in time. (We are going out to dinner after a long and stressful week)

We are trying to take care of our health but it's difficult to do. We have no children (yet) and Webster has been our baby boy for over 4 years now. Many things in life have since been placed on the back burner when all of this happened. I hope to get back into a normal routine by tomorrow. Hopefully tonight's numbers will allow me to get some rest.

BTW, Remi has some beautiful numbers. I hope Webster gets to that point some day. :mrgreen:

 

Hi MIke!

Sorry I missed you yesterday, but you've been in great hands. Fortunately we've got lots of experienced people here who can help teach new members.

I did want to mention a couple of things about night before last.

One - I misread the timing as we were going through the night. I was thinking the drop from 292 to 200 took place in a half hour, but when i looked back to the actual times you were posting, it was over an hour. Any drop over perhaps 50 points per hour can trigger the next bounce - the cat's body is responding to the rapid drop, even if it never gets into low numbers. In any case, even 92 points an hour is fast. I wanted to slow him down although I was thinking the deed was probably already done because he'd dropped from the 473 to the 290 in 2.5 hrs.

I suggested adding the karo on partially because you'd already been giving him low carb and he hadn't seemed to slow much. I also was uber aware that it was 1am for you and you'd expressed how tired you were. Sometimes on here people get so tired that they fall asleep and don't show back up online. I didn't want to have that happen with you and have Webster continue that drop.

There wasn't anything wrong with doing what we did - the point was to stop him dropping and leave him high enough that you could safely sleep - and that's what happened. Sometimes you just need to "abort" a cycle, meaning interrupt how the cycle would play out, for other reasons - like needing to sleep or go out. It's not the usual plan but life happens and you learn to go with it.

Going forward though, the goal is to get any cat into normal numbers and encourage them to stay there. When a cat spends some time in one range, people refer to it as "surfing" which is what Amy was meaning. If you look at some of the subject lines on the main Lantus/Lev TR page, you'll see that some cats are spending hours in the normal range - 50-120. That's the goal of the Tight Regulation Protocol. When they are in those good numbers the pancreas can heal and hopefully, begin putting out insulin again.

So ordinarily we wouldn't give high carbs to a cat until they go under 50 - and then we give just enough to let them go back up above 50 and hopefully, surf along for a while.

I suspect that the AB is contributing to the higher numbers too. If you've only got the 4 doses left, you can just give them and know to watch for his BGs when the antibiotic is done. He may (hopefully) come down at that point.

I meant to get back to you yesterday to go over all of that, but hehehe i fell asleep on the sofa last night and this is my first chance to get back online.

Did you also buy some gravy high carb cat food while you were out?

Does all of that make sense? Please ask if it doesn't.

by the way, i haven't heard the flea story but an excellent non-toxic treatment is diatomaceous earth. You can buy it in a garden store/plant nursery, it's cheap and you can sprinkle it in your house (carpets, sofa, etc.) and outside. I live in a climate that is ideal for fleas, and the local university entomologist suggested it to me years ago when we had a terrible flea infestation. It's kinda like flour. I put it in a large strainer and then tapped the strainer against my hand for some to sift out. You can leave it for days and then vacuum it up. It is made of crushed diatoms, which if i remember right, is a shelled critter. the substance has sharp edges and it works by cutting through the protective waxy coating on fleas & ants (probably other insects too). The insects then dehydrate and die. You'd want to do it long enough to go through the entire life cycle - maybe more than once. Then you vacuum it up.

I've used it both inside and outside. At one point we had carpenter ants and i started putting a border around the house on the bark so they wouldn't travel from the bark into the house.

It's harmless to people & pets. I've seen it in pet stores but it's hugely expensive there - like $5 for a pint. The bags at the garden store are maybe $15 and you'll have it forever. We also put it on our dog and cats at the time. It still works if it gets wet.

 

Hi Julie! Thank you once again for sticking around the other night.

The time mix up was most likely my fault. After getting over the initial shock of getting my cat home from the vet and an receiving an initial reading of 45, I likely posted the wrong times. It was a long day and a long week and I was out of it. Either way, he was dropping off fast and we slowed it down. I was able to get some sleep. Mission accomplished. Thank you once again!

Thanks for explaining "surfing". I was a bit confused but now it makes sense. I agree, the AB must be contributing to some degree. After all, it seems to be mostly sugar/syrup based although I have not confirmed that yet with the vet.

As for the high carb food, I thought that I did but I'm pretty sure that I picked up the wrong thing. I picked up 6 different cans of Friskies Pate which I mistakenly thought that this was high carb.

Any recommendations for high carb tasty food in the case of a quick drop?

Everything that you said is clear. Thanks for explaining.

As for the fleas, I familiarized myself with diatomaceous earth a couple months ago prior to the fleas laying eggs and hatching out. Many folks online actually recommending that you dust your cat with it. Two months ago I dusted every crevice of Webster with DE, hoping that it would cure him of fleas. Well the flees seemed to thrive despite my effort and laid lots of eggs which hatched int larvae and then back into fleas.

I let it go for a couple weeks thinking that they would eventually die off but they never did and I started to see larvae by the dozens - on him and around the house. I then used Advantage II which seemed to take care of them up until a few days ago. The flee eggs that were in my home when I had left for Pennsylvania had hatched out and are jumping everywhere when I came back to NC yesterday.

I was very skeptical of this diatomaceous earth that everyone was raving about so I put it to the test. I put a dusting in the bottom of a jar and placed 3 live fleas inside the jar. Within a few hours all three were dead as a doornail!

Webster has very fine and long hair. My best guess is that the DE couldn't penetrate his thick coat or the fleas had some really great hiding places that I could not get to. Either way, it does in fact kill fleas, however, it didn't work too well on my cat probably due to one of these reasons.

I will give the DE a second try on the carpet and see if it help. My guess is that it will be more effective in the less dense mate of the carpet. I really like the idea of it being virtually non toxic and effective. Hopefully it can penetrate my carpet and dry those little suckers out.

Time for Websters reading and shot. Wish me luck! Will post back afterward.

 

Nice science test with the DE! I did see our yard go from a flea-infested mess (I could see them HOPPING!) to zip. It has worked for us. You might double-check the directions on the Advantage - I want to say that you can give it a little sooner than once a month if you're having new fleas. A combination of the Advantage and the DE might deal with the issue. We hate fleas!

I was happy to stay with you Saturday night. Other people stayed with me when I was learning too - we all just pass it on.

 

Hi Mike,

I'm Mikey's mom. Did you get to see his spreadsheet? We call him RB for Rubber Ball sometimes. He can bounce like no other. I get how stressed you are. It's very rough on us newbies. Marje is right when she says you need to take care of yourself. I use the FlyLady website to help me with organizing my house, and one things she always says is, "Put your own oxygen mask on first." Whenever you fly, they tell you that if there's an emergency, you should put your own oxygen mask on before helping anyone else with theirs, even a child. (or cat!) We're not going to be any good for our cats if we're hospitalized. I keep reminding myself that I have to put myself on the to do list. We need to eat and sleep, not to mention keep our jobs so we can pay for insulin. Be sure you and your wife take care of yourselves and each other, because this is going to be a long haul. We're all in this together! We will make it!

Mary

 

That's the plan! We are going to reapply the Advantage tonight (despite my mixed feelings about it).

As for our plan of attack on the house, we are going to vacuum daily and dust the carpets daily with DE. In addition every other day we are going to wash our linens and anywhere that Webster lays.

I actually Vacuumed today and with my bag-less vac. I emptied out the vac canister and must have seen over a dozen jumping around in the vac. Imagine how many I didn't see in there and how many still remain around the house. Gross...

 

a flea comb is pretty helpful too. the fleas get caught in the comb, then you slide them out with your fingernails and immediately drop them into a small bowl of water with a drop or two of liquid soap in it. they'll drown. i even have an old human comb that has really tight tines that i've used, but a flea comb works better.

 

Yes, I purchased one of these a few weeks ago. He has to be in a really relaxed mood to allow me to brush him for more than 30 seconds. Will have to break it out when hes resting and give it a try with the water and couple drops of soap.

 

Hi Mikey's Mom! I just had a chance to look over his spreadsheet. Yes, those numbers look all over the place. After reading your comment section, I'm guessing that a major factor in his fluctuation has to do with changing his diet over to a low carb one? It seems like a two-fold challenge. You (as well as myself) are trying to switch Mikey over to a low carb diet while trying to regulate his insulin? Right now, I'm just happy to see Webster eating once again. I'm offering various low carb wet foods and waiting to see if he has a preference.

I think I'm starting to see the bigger picture here which is to get switched over to a low carb/high protein diet which will reduce the levels of sugars in the blood, hopefully to a level where his pancreas can take over and send out insulin as needed to transport sugar to cells which produce energy? Forgive me, I'm sometimes a slow learner. :smile: Do I about have the idea down? I hope the transition from a cheap all-dry high carb diet to a low carb wet food diet comes without too much of a battle.

As for taking care of myself, I'm feeling much better this evening. My Webster started grooming his self today, used the scratching post, and seems alive once again! This is a huge difference from one week ago when I had to take him to the hospital nearly as he was nearly lifeless. I'm getting better and looking forward to getting back to my everyday life tomorrow. I'm about to check his numbers in a half hour to see where he stands.

 

Is he eating any dry food at all? I thought that was out of the picture. The dry food carbs are typically gone from the system in a day or so.

Yes, you have the right idea. A cat's perfect diet is a mouse or a bird. They are around 3-7% carbs, if i'm remembering correctly. The dry food carbs (as much as 50%) are a huge burden on a cat's pancreas. Sometimes removing that too-high of carb burden, combined with even a few days of insulin, is all a cat needs to have their pancreas heal.

Most people here fed their cats dry food before diagnosis. And most people become very pro-canned/raw cat food once they've learned about the problems associated with dry food. Dr. Lisa, dvm on http://www.catinfo.org has some great information about cats and diet.

Oh, your earlier question - classic pates are typically low carb, although you really have to check the cat info food carb list to know what the carb content is. For your high carb food, I'd choose something over 20%. The higher the carb content the less you'll need. Fancy Feast gravy lovers are all 20-22%. When you carb a kitty with low numbers you might only use 1-2 teaspoons of the gravy, so small cans are a great idea.

 

Once again, some great information! :smile: TY

Just a quick racap on Webster's past and current diet:

I've (shamefully) been feeding him "Special Kitty" dry food for over 4 years now exclusively. My thoughts (read: ignorance) told me that all food is the same and not to "waste" money on expensive canned food that is a hassle to deal with. Boy, was I wrong and now I am paying the price of being a cheapskate. #1 I almost lost my boy and #2 between the hospital bill, insulin and supplies I'm out over $1,300. Considering I got my Webster back, it was a very small monetary price to pay, however it took a huge toll on my emotions and health. Needless to say, I now have adopted a whole another view on cat food.

After the DKA incident, I was instructed to feed Webster high protein, low car diet. However, he was in the hospital Tue-Sat and would only eat when force fed by the vet. He ate some special kitty and temptation treats during 2 visits (Fri & Sat). I guess he was happy to see me and would only eat for me. The vet was satisfied that he was eating so she released him, stressing to make sure that he's eating before giving insulin. She said at this point he can eat anything just to get his appetite back. I was given 2 cans of Purina A/d and 2 cans of Purina Diabetic Management.

Saturday upon release from the hospital he started to regain his appetite. I gave him a watered down version of the Purina AD and he seemed to like it, despite his long history of an all corn based dry food diet. He quickly devoured these two cans between Sat and Sun. All I had left was the Purina diabetic management.

This morning I went shopping and purchased a half dozen varieties of low carb foods just to see what he might be interested in. He had a watered down food buffet all day that consisted of Fancy feast salmon, Friskies special diet Chicken and giblets, Purina diabetic management, and a small separate helping of his old dry special kitty just in case he wasn't liking any of his choices.

So far, he hasn't touched the fancy feast, put a small dent on the Purina diabetic management, had a half cup or so of his old dry food and ate a generous helping of the Friskies. The clear winners were Firskies and his old dry food.

My plan (hopefully I'm doing this right) is to use a side-by-side taste test each day to determine his favorite 1 or 2 low carb wet foods. Once I find something that he likes I plan to get him accustom to eating his new food by giving a generous portion while slowly cutting back on his old dry food. How's this sound?

Thanks for the high carb food recommendation. I'm going back out tomorrow to get a just-in-case supply.

 

Thanks for the links. I'm bookmarking them now so I can go back and read over them tomorrow!

 

I even fed punkin the vet's dry Purina dm. ohmygod_smile

Don't look back. Most everyone has done it.

The dry food plus the AB syrup are no doubt raising his bgs. There are tips on that site on transitioning a cat away from dry food. One good one is to pulverize the dry food and just sprinkle it on the canned lc. Make the transition slowly so his bgs don't plummet as the carbs work out of his body.

Yes he has to keep eating enough but if he'll eat lc ...it's better. You'll have to find the balance.

 

I placed four different types of food out last night in separate bowls and he actually cleaned his bowl of the Friskies Special Diet Turkey and his 1/2 cup of his old dry food. He seems to be eating both the low carb wet food and high carb dry food. My thinking is to try several different types of low carb wet food and use the process of elimination to find one that he actually really enjoys eating while keeping a small bowl of dry food out to give his BG a boost and to help slowly transition him into all low carb. If he completely stops eating the dry food too fast I can pulverize some dry and sprinkle it on top of his low carb wet food as mentioned. Is this an okay way to transition as long as hes eating both types?

As for AB syrup, how much of a BG drop would you expect to see when he finishes? He's taking 1.5 ml 2x per day at the time of insulin.