10/11 Ginger -How long should it take for Lantus to work?

Increased dose to 2.25 units
I'd prefer a cat food without the by products so I bought a can of Wellness Chicken- grain free to see how the cats like it.
Ginger and Babibear did not like it, Lucky did.

What canned foods do you use that has no by products?


Using Accu-check Meter. Not comfortable with the New ReliON meter's accuracy during this time of trying to get the BG levels under control.

Yesterday's Condo

Re: 10/11 Ginger AMPS 434 (dose increase & food Question)

good morning, Ginger's mom and Ginger. Just wondering...what is your first name, if you don't mind telling me...you may have already, but the way things are going around here, I forgot, sorry...what can I say...between working and being over 50 (hehehehe, I can use that excuse), I just plain old forget :lol:

I tried the By Nature 95% and the organics. Turkey and Chicken brand. Spot really liked those, but it seemed, at least to me, that his numbers were higher when he ate it. I feed the Sophisticat brand cat foods, the 0%-2% variety and it works well. Yes, it has by products, but lower in carbs and they like it.

As far as the ReliOn meter, I've used it since Spot was dx'd and you are right, it doesn't go above 500, at least the ultima didn't.

I hope the dose crease helps Ginger!

Re: 10/11 Ginger AMPS 434 (dose increase & food Question)

Good Morning Deb,

My name is Lori and I am 50+ too. lol I will add my name to my profile.

My problem with the ReliON Confirm was the ReliOn said 311, the Accu-Check said 383 (72 point difference)

They like the Nine Lives and the Special Kitty, so I was hoping they'd like the Wellness because of the ingredients.

Re: 10/11 Ginger AMPS 434 (dose increase & food Question)

Maybe mix the Wellness with a brand they like...at least you know they are getting some of the better quality stuff. I grew so disgusted with the brands available and I finally tried the raw chicken mixed with the Feline future powder w/liver. http://www.feline-future.com
My two had a bad reaction to beef in cat foods, so I don't use anything with beef. They do not seem to care for the Wellness Turkey, so I stick with the chicken only and mix it with the raw mixture. (Feline Future They used to send free samples; not sure if they still do.)
I had gotten Evo 95% chicken/turkey but they are off that now...I used to include that in the mixture but they sniff it out and refuse to eat it anymore. sigh. I tried the freeze-dried chicken on top and now I MUST do that all the time. They LOVE it!! Feeding can be such a problem. Just when you find something they like, if you buy a nice supply of it, they turn up their noses at it.

Re: 10/11 Ginger AMPS 434 (dose increase & food Question)

I ran into some of the same problems with foods as Pat. Gabby wasn't happy with the EVO 95 poultry flavor and both cats were not happy with the Wellness poultry grain free variety. For a long time they got Fancy Feast. I switched to a primarily raw diet (I grind my own chicken and add the Feline Futures mix.) The cats get Wellness, either chicken or turkey, for snacks.

Good luck with the dosecrease.

Re: 10/11 Ginger AMPS 434, +3 419 (food Question)

Good luck with the dosecrease. I hope if helps with Ginger"s numbers. My guy is a welllness kitty - he likes most varieties, but gets primarily chicken and turkey. He eats it well, so I haven't had to look for anything else. Once in a while I will feed FF, or Merrick, when I need a higher carb food.

Re: 10/11 Ginger AMPS 434, +3 419, +6 503, +9 478, PMPS 455

She is feeling terrible with these high numbers all day long.

Vet just called me after viewing Gingers spreadsheet online.
She's thinking the Lantus isnt for Ginger anymore than the Humulin N was and is thinking we should switch her to PZI now.

She was on Humulin N for 3 weeks.
She has been on Lantus for 15 days.
Dose increase today - In Reds and one black all day

oh wow, 15 days is soooooo not enough time to know if Lantus will work for Ginger. She's just not up to her dose yet. If you'll look at the beginning of Lucy's spreadsheet (and the spreadsheets of others who have been here a while), what you'll see is a lot of nothing. No movement to speak of until she hit her dose, which in Lucy's case was 4.25. Then there was green all over the place. Ginger's spreadsheet looks pretty normal for 2 weeks on Lantus, in my experience. A little high, but she'll get there.

How long does Lantus take to work? Well, it will take until you reach the dose that Ginger needs, and you have not reached that dose yet.

On your ss, you seem to be hold a dose for only 4 cycles, and you may not be holding long enough for the shed to properly fill.
Even putting that aside, a dose of 2.25 is still low - there are others who have had to give much higher doses and even then still gone OTJ. You may find that Ginger needs a dose double what you are giving now, but it is best to follow the protocol, going slowly, so that you do not overpass the fitting dose.

To say that an insulin is not working after only 15 days does not make sense as it could very well take longer to find the dose that finally fits Ginger's needs. You really need to give it more time because Ginger's fitting dose could turn out to be something like 5u BID and you need to get there properly, not rushing.

If the BG numbers are high enough, high and flat, you could always consider increases of .5u, but holding for 6 cycles is a good idea. While my Shadoe reacts faster to a dose change, my Oliver has taken even longer than 6 cycles to finally realize the dose change, so you need to see what your Ginger is: a fast or slower reactor.

A portion of the protocol:

"General" Guidelines:

--- Hold the initial starting dose for 5 - 7 days (10 - 14 cycles) unless the numbers tell you otherwise. Kitties experiencing high flat curves or prone to ketones may want to increase the starting dose after 3 days (6 cycles).

--- Each subsequent dose is held for a minimum of 3 days (6 cycles) unless kitty earns a reduction (See: Reducing the dose...).

--- Adjustments to dose are based on nadirs with only some consideration given to preshot numbers.


Increasing the dose...
--- Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose.

--- After 3 consecutive days (6 cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.

--- After 3 consecutive days (6 cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

Your vet doesnt seem to know about lantus very much (no offense)--Many of our cats were on different insulins, mine was on humilin N as well as lantus that she is on for the last 2 1/2 yrs.. It does take a while for the cat's system to assimilate a new insulin, as it does for any drug...Moonie took time to adjust to lantus, but she got so much better, once we found the right dose!
Patience & consistancy is what you need to focus on now--Sure, we all want to see our babies get better immediately, but we do have to wait, in the beginning..
Just stay on the board, ask questions, and keep bg testing Ginger..Hope you see changes soon--You are trying really hard & that is great!

No she does not know much about Lantus at all. I have been sending her information on the protocols, the shed, etc.
I have told her about the support you all give here, and she's good with all that.
She is also very pleased I am testing at home. She said she knows only 1 other pet owner that did that.
She even looks online at GIngers SS to see if there are any changes.

But she is worried because she is still in the 400's and 500's and it doesnt seem to be helping......even a little.

Just so you have a sense of how another SS looks where a kitty went up to a fairly high dose and then went OTJ, take a look at Max/Randi's spreadsheet. It took about 2 mos for Max to start seeing some movement. This is why we keep saying that Lantus takes patience.

You might try the Weruva brand of cat food...but only the Asian Fusion or the Mack Jack. Jezebel has done very well eith this food with the Classic FF in between.
Debie & Jezebel

It does take time to reach the dose that will start showing better numbers. My Shadow did much better after his dental. While he didn't have any teeth removed or anything, he did have plaque buildup. He now gets a dental twice a year. Have you had recent blood work done? Sometimes it is good to make sure there is no underlying infection.
If all comes back fine, and there is no plaque or need of a dental, then patience is what will work next.
It is hard to hear, I know. It's hard to SAY it but it is the truth. The food and the dose make big differences in them in the end....you will reach the dose that starts showing some nicer numbers eventually. ECID but most do take awhile to see results.
(Did you say that your vet wanted Ginger to become regulated before she did a dental? My memory is failing me, but I think maybe you said that..) Most of us have dentals done all the time...care is taken to watch the BGs during the procedure, but it is fine for the FD kitties. It is so important to take care of the teeth. And I believe that IF there is inflammation and or infection, the BGs will be elevated until it is taken care of. I think it's best to rule that out first.

My husband will not allow a dental because of how a friends cat died during her dental.
Plus with such high BG numbers and her current condition of feeling terrible, there is just no way right now.

She has a urinary tract infection and is on amoxicillin.
The link for her blood labs from last week is below.
The doctor said her kidney and liver values were slightly high, but nothing to worry about.

I cannot see waiting months for her to get to yellow readings. She is moaning and laying on top of the water bowl almost all the time.

I'm sorry.....I had a lapse there, apologies.
I am also very sorry that this is such a frustrating thing. I wish one could just use one pill and have it all be gone. Unfortunately, it doesn't come upon them overnight and it doesn't leave overnight either. I do hope that the ABs will go to work on the infection and that maybe the numbers will get better then.

I do not know about any other insulins (except Vetsulin. We started out on that...6 weeks...and I switched to the longer duration Levemir.) I hope you will find some relief to this situation. Maybe you will be able to fid out more about the other insulins...have you checked the other forums on this site?

I am not sure what I am going to do. I will think about it a bit.
My vet wants to switch her to PZI.
I did find this site that has PZI information, and the kind of protocol it has, it sounds like it may be a better insulin for Ginger.

http://www.yourdiabeticcat.com/protocol.html

One thing it says is "Using this protocol, you can expect to start seeing some very “normal” numbers within a few days or weeks of starting."
And the amount of insulin you give depends on the cats PS level.
It has a chart of how much insulin to give depending on the PS.

I also saw here at Felines Diabetes that everyone here is using the same protocol as the Lantus of starting slow rather than as the site above where the doctor has a whole different protocol.

Re: 10/11 Ginger -How long should it take for Lantus to work

Please forgive me for being a bit blunt.

It's a marathon, not a sprint. You need to have some patience.

It takes time to get regulated on insulin, ANY insulin. All you will accomplish by jumping from insulin to insulin is delaying regulation. It's certainly your choice, but there is no instant path to regulation, you need to find the right dose, and it takes time to get there...with ANY insulin.

We started on ProZinc, used it for 3 months. It's an excellent insulin, but it isn't better than Lantus, and there is much less guidance on it's use than Lantus. There is no clear protocol. Look more carefully on that site, how many people are there?

Don't you think that if there were some quick way to get a cat regulated, we all would have used it?

I rest my case. It's your choice.

Re: 10/11 Ginger -How long should it take for Lantus to work

hi again Lori, just seen this.

I would say you need to give Lantus a bit longer. I personally don't think PZI ia as effective as Lantus, particularly in terms of regulation/OTJ but then I have read of beans who have said PZI did work over Lantus forthem.

With your high numbers I'd be inclined to increase at .5u if nadirs above 300 whilst still waiting a full 6 cycles before raising dose.
AS I said in previous post to you, add some water to her food too.

Hang in there, we're all rooting for you

Re: 10/11 Ginger -How long should it take for Lantus to work

i'd be increasing by 0.5u every 3 days. some authorities expect regulation very quickly, like 10 days. but we've seen some cats take up to 5 months to start showing more comfortable numbers. it really depends on the cat.
no sense letting your cat sit in high numbers for too long, tho so 0.5u every 3 days should get her to an optimal dose (til we start seeing some breakthrough numbers, at which point we'd either stick to the dose or do the increases in 0.25u increments).

please don't give up on lantus too soon.

with her terrible thirst, i'd be checking for ketones regularly. maybe talk to people here about adding humulin R to the equation to get numbers down more so the lantus can work. a few of us have some decent experience with R.

just don't want to see her switching insulins again so quickly. with some cats it takes a full 10 days just to start seeing what a dose can do, tho again with the hanging around the water bowl with high numbers and not feeling well we don't sit on a dose for longer than 3 days.

it's late in the evening on 10/12 now instead of 10/11 but the thread was bumped up a bit so i posted here. please excuse me if you have a more recent post and i missed it.