7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 PMPS 128

Yesterday's numbers may be squirrelly. His meal was off schedule with the vet's visit where he hate 1/3 can FF at +9 before PMPS. He's such a slow eater and ate from PMPS through +4.

Recap
AMPS 103
PMPS 111
+5 67

Today he knew what was going on and started hiding in a couple of his favorite spots. That made carrying him to the towel and burritoing him much harder. But after wrapping him up, he started getting loose so I wrapped another layer with my sweatshirt. After the poke he then hid under the bed, something he does only when he thinks we're going to mom's house in the burbs. Shot time delayed 1/2 hour.

EDIT: Vet Update
Vet still out of the office but one of his partners called with test results. For those who aren't familiar, Junior has been losing his appetite and his weight loss is worrying. Mom hadn't seen him since we came home from LA 3 weeks ago and remarked how noticeable his weight loss has been. I agree.

- Kidneys looked fine
- Urine was concentrated
- Thyroid slightly low, not worried.

Test results:
T4 .5
BUN 23
CREA 1.2
Urine 1035
Blood Pressure 170

He said one possibility is that the "diabetes may not be managed well" and recommends a fructosamine test. I told him I test Junior daily and asked him, "isn't it just the average of the last 2-3 weeks?" He said, "It's tricky" and said the test may help us see if we're over treating Junior. He explained the Somogyi Effect and said Junior might be getting too much insulin.

I wonder if he may be onto something. I did note in yesterday's post that he did start eating more and that was Cycle 4 on the new dose, including the skipped shot in Cycle 2.

So for now we're keeping him on meds as is and run the fructosamine test. My regular vet will call me with a recommendation on Tuesday. I also have an appointment w/a new vet on Thursday.

Thoughts? Reactions?

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120

Our kitties just seem to know when something is gonna happen. Kitty "esp".

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Especially when they're about to get poked!!! :lol:

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

mmmm, well how honest do ya want? i'll just say what i'm thinking and you can toss it out if you want.

i'd be skeptical. i don't see any reason for a fructosamine test - not for a person who tests multiple times a day. junior isn't hiding any secrets from you as far as his blood sugar goes. same for the dreaded somyblah blah effect. you'd see it.

i'd keep looking for a different cause for the weight loss and lack of appetite. did his white blood cell count get checked? i'd be wondering about an infection or something else. were any other tests run?

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

I'm sure no help with input, but will be interested to see what the wise ones say...

and offer this to Mr. Junior-man...

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

MauiGuppy said:

He said one possibility is that the "diabetes may not be managed well" and recommends a fructosamine test. I told him I test Junior daily and asked him, "isn't it just the average of the last 2-3 weeks?" He said, "It's tricky" and said the test may help us see if we're over treating Junior. He explained the Somogyi Effect and said Junior might be getting too much insulin.

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ummm, not to be rude, but did the vet even look at your spreadsheet? Seriously, could *anyone* have looked at your spreadsheet and implied that the diabetes was not managed well? And Somogyi is a controversial subject, but considering that the main characteristics are fast drops and high numbers, well, I don't see how that is possible with Junior's numbers either. I see neither fast drops nor high numbers. Unfortunately a lot of vets don't understand feline diabetes very well, and they jump right to the fructosamine and/or Somogyi. I would guess that almost every one of us have had the same conversation with our vets.

Sorry you haven't gotten any answers about the appetite yet, though.

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

On the fruc. test....my vet said it was useless since I tested so often. I think when they see these great numbers they kinda freak since most owners don't monitor their kitties like us. I'd skip the fruc. test myself.

Curry's appetite changed alot when she became regulated and even lost weight.

Does your vet think Junior is underweight?

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Look at the numbers today, really great! You are doing very well here, & in consideration of Junior's past ailments, I have to say you have done so much for him..
All vets recommend fructosamine test==$$$$$$$$$$$$
You monitor him a lot, so what would it accomplish?
Check with the other vet you are seeing, but bring a copy of your SS, a copy of the protocol we are using here, and then discuss the alternatives--His teeth could be part of it.
When my cat goes to lower numbers, she always eats less, which always worries me, but I get nuts anyway.
Look at the beautiful numbers Junior is giving you, this could be the cause, but it is a good thing!
The appetite will come back, and I think he is doing well-
WBC I dont know, but that usually means a low grade infection--Hope all the mysteries of the psychic cat are solved! :lol:
Are you giving him treats while you are doing the pokes to distract him?
Have a good night! Looking good here! :mrgreen:

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Our vet told us the same thing just last week. Tarragon is the bungee champion! I don't know what to think about the somowhatchamacallit syndrome, but we monitor so closely that I can't help but thing the fruc test would be useless.

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

I know -- what a frustrating phone call. Unfortunately it sounds like that's the norm.

Thanks for all the info and for confirming what I heard about that test, that it's a waste for home testers. And Junior doesn't bounce (anti-jinx). He just bites!

Can't believe I just agreed to it -- should've trusted my instincts. The office is now closed so I just sent an email to my regular vet to see if we can cancel it. I'm still unemployed so I have to watch costs. They'll probably run the test on Tuesday anyway so hopefully I won't have to pay for it.

Does your vet think Junior is underweight?

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He's still normal but he sleeps all day and is losing weight too fast.
March 14.8 lb
May 14
June 13
July 12.8

I work out and still can't drop a pound. He should be eating 246 calories/day to maintain 13 lb but most of the time we barely get in 2 cans of FF (160 calories). Even if he eats past nadir, he nibbles and walks away.

I'm excited about the new vet on Thursday! I made the appointment Chicago-style: name dropped Sienne and they rolled out the red carpet!

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

I agree with Libby and Roni about skipping the fructosomine test. Have they considered an ultrasound or xrays to look for anything unusual? Perhaps you need to continue monitoring the weight loss and see if it continues or plateaus before going to an ultrasound. Hope you figure it out soon... SS looks awesome!

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

There's nothing "tricky" about a frustosamine level at all; it's just an average of what Junior's BGs have been over the last 2 or 3 weeks. I know my meter gives me the average for the past week, the average for the past 14 days, and the average for the past 30 days. That's more than enough info. Unfortunately, because vets are taught so little about FD in school, they tend to fall back on the things they were taught, fructosamine levels and Somogyi.

Junior is really looking awesome today, btw!!!

Hope you're having a great day!!

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Hi guys - just another affirmative on what all the others have said, I couldn't agree more on the fructosamine and the rebound thing.

Weight loss is something else - I'd look elsewhere. Was he overweight before, and perhaps with the LC wet food he is now reaching his ideal weight? It sounds like 12.8 is close to where he should be. ?? no expert here for sure. When we changed Mannie's diet I just did it for all the cats. We have one who was 6 pounds overweight. For her the diet change dropped all the extra pounds, rather quickly. Maybe it is the same for Junior, and he is just reaching his plateau? Good luck in any event.

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Another in agreement with with what others have said, especially Libby. There is no clear evidence that it even exists, let alone in cats, let alone in cats on lantus. I just scanned through my old posts, and after a similar convo with my vet, referred to it as the "Jumanji Rebound Effect Lecture." And, as Libby said, there is NO way that anybody, vet or otherwise, could look at Junior's SS for even 5 seconds and suggest that he isn't regulated. Seriously.

I think it is far more important to spend your money on things you DON'T already know. Not confirmation of things that you already do. I'd call back and make it clear that they do not have permission to do the fructosamine test, and if they do, it will be at their expense. It is so hard, isn't it? Going against your gut because it is the vet and we presume them to know more than we do about this stuff? So many of us have been there... hang in there!!

Just out of curiosity, is Junior especially active? And I know you've probably answered this (if a million times, sorry!), but has the vet indicated what Junior's ideal weight should be?

One suggestion... Just as in humans, if Junior is balking at the amount of food, you can try to increase the caloric intake of the smaller amount of food. I ran into this problem when I was training as a runner (what I referred to as the "Skinny Witch-with-a-B Dilemma"). At a certain point, you can only eat so much, so I would try to add calorie dense foods. Assuming Junior doesn't have any heart issues, mixing melted butter or olive oil into his food would be an easy way to add calories without adding carbs or bulk.

Another thought would be to consider paying for a 1 hr consult for Dr. Lisa to go over your tests results with you and offer suggestions. I know... more money spent, but I have found that her advice tends to pay for itself, between being more educated now about how to read test results, to having her save me by avoiding unnecessary tests/procedures my vet was recommending. Just wanted to throw that idea out there as a possibility at some point if answers aren't coming soon.

Fingers and paws crossed that you get the answers you need soon! ((hugs)) from us!!

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Any weight loss in a cat should be an automatic check of their liver. Did they run liver values? A cat's liver can't process body fat like ours can. So when they don't lose weight very slowly they can get feline hepatic lipidosis. Fatty Liver. This can happen in some cats extremely quickly with just a reduction in appetite - not full out anorexia. How much weight was lost in what period of time? Any symptoms of nausea - showing interest in food and walking away after snicking or licking?

Can you syringe feed to give the liver a break and make sure Junior maintains his weight - no further weight loss until you complete testing and figuring out whats going on?

I had to syringe feed Maverick through periods of inappetance. He almost died from fatty liver and had a feeding tube for ten weeks. Some cats can lose a lot of weight and not be affected but many cats are affected. I help out with a yahoo group dedicated to assist feeding cats. Its very common unfortunately and not a lot of people know about it. This includes a whole lot of vets.

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

PS.... I have a link to Maverick (who is an angel now) in my signature. His legacy and my promise to him is that we will try and prevent one cat from going through what he went through - it will be worth it.

Re: 7/2 Junior AMPS 120 +6 79 Vet Called

Just stopping in to also agree that the fructosamine test is a waste of money I did this test to humor my vet and I am a vet tech and it showed us nothing that my SS did not so if you can cancel I would and what great numbers for Junior this morning

Hi everyone,

THANK YOU all for sharing your thoughts on Junior's loss of appetite. It just makes my stomach turn to keep running into the same problem -- that our vets don't know as much as they should...and we keep paying them! If they don't know what the answer is, why don't they take a few minutes to dig around before calling me back? If I sound angry, I am. Ok I'll stop. Preaching to the choir.

I'm so glad you guys are raising all these questions b/c it'll make me ask my vet too!

ave they considered an ultrasound or xrays to look for anything unusual?

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Yes, we did an x-ray while Junior was under isoflurane anesthesia. My vet's partner (my vet's on vacation) couldn't find it at the time of the call.

Was he overweight before, and perhaps with the LC wet food he is now reaching his ideal weight?

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Yes he was fat soft and but now eats 160-180 cal/day that is if I can get him to eat that. He should be eating 245 to maintain 13 pounds. I think we may have passed his ideal weight b/c his hips and waist seem pretty pronounced. When Mococo stopped by to train me on ear pokes, she even remarked how underweight he looked.

Here is a picture of him from May 2010 and here is a picture taken last week.

Just out of curiosity, is Junior especially active?

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Not really and even less so now. He doesn't even come over for food anymore. I have to bring it to him.

Mixing melted butter or olive oil into his food would be an easy way to add calories without adding carbs or bulk

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Great suggestion! I'll try it if his liver isn't fatty.

Did they run liver values?

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I don't know but I will definitely ask!

If you can cancel I would

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I emailed my regular vet to say I don't want the fructosamine test. He's on vacation but hope he gets it in time!

i guess i'm confused - is jr at home? because if so, you just don't take him in for the test.

eta: i looked through is profile and i can't find anywhere that says how old he is - can you remind me?

Yes Junior is at home. The vet said they're able to run tests based on the blood sample yesterday. The office closed at noon and the vet had called me at 2 so I'm guessing that they're not running the test until Tuesday when they open again.

Junior sounds a lot like my non-diabetic 16 year-old senior, Mario. Mario has never been a huge eater, but nowadays I sometimes have to provide "room service" and sit with him to encourage him to eat, and he's definitely a bit thinner than I'd like. Most times he'll eat OK on his own, but he's defintely lost some weight as of late. He's also HyperT (transdermal tapazole) but also has high BP (amlodipine) and arthritis (adequan and cosequin). His thyroid is "controlled", but I do wonder if the meds and the conditions are contributing factors to his weight, which is beyond our control. Without the meds, I think Mario would be in much worse shape as far as his general health goes. Overall, he seems happy and comfy, but he definitely doesn't have the energy that he used to, and he is thinner than he used to be. With all that, though, all of his labs look good.

I know that wasn't much help, but aside from the fact that Mario isn't diabetic, he's got some similar traits with Junior. Becaue he gets sooo stressed with vet visits, I'm just trying to balance keeping him happy and eating as much as I can encourage. I hope you're able to find some solid answers for Junior.