1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349 +3.5 316

YesterdayJetta 12/31
Happy 2012 LL!!!

Looks like Jetta means business in this new year! WOW on that +2.5. We're about to get a +3.5... She's doing well, and she's loving that her siblings are on 90% canned food now. She really enjoys getting in the fray and being a part of the AM feeding frenzy. I'm still working out the kinks, but we're getting there!

I actually went btb today- twice!- I never go btb! Got up at 7 for shoot, then set the alarm for 8 to get Chicken up and fed, then went btb until 930. WOW did that ever feel good.

Last night at midnight I held Jetta close, kissed her little forehead, and thanked her for being such a sweet, tolerant kitty through all the shoots and pokes, and thanked her for being here still. My greatest wish is that I can do the same thing with her as I ring in 2013.

And, I want to wish all of you the very best that this new year can bring. You've brought us smiles in our darkest moments last year and I know Jetta wouldn't be here without you. I am truly thankful to each one of you and that I found this wonderful place.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128

What a way to start the new year! Surf it Jetta!

Congrats on the double btb! I hope that foretells a more relaxing, comfortable year, even if you don't often make it btb often!

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128

We feel the same way, Jac, that Zener wouldn't be here without LL. Best wishes to you, Jetta and the entire family for the new year.
Liz

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168

yeah, i'll third that. punkin was diagnosed dec 4th a year ago and as sick as he was, i didn't think he'd be here in 2012. i'm grateful for every day i have with the complaining little furball. he's worth every poke.

and doesn't jetta look great today!

have a wonderful holiday, jaclyn. i'm glad you're here too.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

We need help. The last 2 days Jetta has had an intial drop in numbers then climbed all day. She has NEVER done anything like this. Her bounces from diving never came on this fast so I do not believe this to be bouncing. I saw in someone's else's condo a few days ago (I think it was Jill asked) if someone was seeing true "Rebound" Is that possiby what we have here? I have to think something is wrong to be causing this sudden new pattern of dip then skyrocket. I'm at a loss and very concerned.

Thanks in advance.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

just looks like bouncing to me. maybe someone else sees something different. i'd guess she's clearing bounces fairly quickly, because before each of those high zooms is a lower number.

i wonder if you could head off some of it by giving food when it looks like she's getting into the 100's and keep her from going as low.

some of the cats here just seem to bounce really easily - gracie, tess, mannie, alex, gabby all come to mind immediately.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

Jaclyn:

We've all discussed before how Jetta likes to dive ....are you still free feeding? It is interesting on looking at her SS that, in the past when she dives, she has bounced back up but not as quickly as she has today. What I'm seeing is she cleared her bounce on the PM cycle of 12/30 and it is possible she might have gotten lower that night and then came back up. On 12/31, I don't really see an AMPS of 206 and a +2 of 160 as a dive; there could be some meter variation in there but even if there weren't, that's only 20 mg/dl/hour. I think she was still just in a bit of a bounce and she just continued it (bounces can include blue numbers).

So the dive I see is today and as Jill said on the condo you have linked, you can't just look at one cycle isolated by itself.

whenever i'm trying to figure out what's going on with any individual kitty i don't isolate the action seen in a particular cycle. a single cycle doesn't mean much to me at all. instead i look at what's happened... what has lead up to what is happening now. i look at what i call "waves of action". those waves of action tell me more than anything else...

Click to expand...

Bouncing can be caused by really fast drops and by really low numbers....both things cause the liver to release the counterregulatory hormones and glucagon. And cats can change even from cycle to cycle.

I don't know that this is "rebound" in the sense of Somogyi...is that what you mean? Sienne has done a lot of research on Somogyi and has not been able to document that it actually exists in cats. But Somogyi as described, from my understanding, tends to be chronic and is a result of too much insulin whereupon the BG dives and bounces way back up and the general tendency of people, which sets off the problematic dive/bounce/dive, is to increase the dose instead of decrease it. IMHO, that is not what is happening to Jetta.

Is there a possibility that, if you free feed, you can schedule her feedings to front load her carbs at PS and +1 with minimeals at +2 and +3? This really helped Gracie who was also a +2 diver and a fast bouncer....some days she looked like she had a "V" curve.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

Jac --

Bouncing and rebound are the same thing. Unfortunately, these kind of swings in numbers happen. Take a look at Gabby's SS from Nov. 2, 2009 (there's a tab for the older data). She went from an AMPS of 429 to a nadir at +4.5 of 47 to a PMPS of 429. You're seeing the bounce due to the drop of over 200 points between AMPS and +2.5. The more time Jetta spends in lower numbers, the more these bounces will flatten out.

I suspect that someone was referring to chronic Somogyi rebound. Julie's right -- I've done 2 lit searches in both the human and feline diabetes research literature. The original human study was published in 1938. Even in the human literature, the results have never been replicated and at best, the phenomenon is considered controversial. The research has never been conducted with the long acting insulin such as Lantus or Lev in either humans or cats. As such, there's no way to conclude that Somogyi exists in cats and especially not in cats on Lantus.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

Thanks Julie- it's just weird- if this is bouncing it's a new type of bouncing where it comes on so fast. Usually it was a few hours to onset the high numbers, not by +5.

Hi Marje- Jetta's a lot less free feed than she was a month or so ago. She now eats a good amount (up to 2 oz) at AMPS. Then she eats another 1 oz or so by about +1.5. She has a snack usually around +3, then nothing until about +6 or 7. Then a snack around +9, and another bigger meal at PMPS. SO as far as front-loading the cycles, it really seems we are already.

I guess it's possible that I keep forgetting this is an ever-changing disease. I wasn't used to seeing these high fast rises so it felt like something had to be different or wrong. It just feels like we've added a lot of red to her SS in a short amount of time and I needed to figure out why.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

Hi Sienne- I think we were typing at the same time. Thanks for your thoughts and info on Somogyi.

I keep waiting for "The more time Jetta spends in lower numbers, the more these bounces will flatten out" There's been times Jetta has spent lots of time in lower numbers (early December even) without much bouncing then something triggers the crazy bouncing again.

But really- thank you Julie, Marje, and Sienne. I guess I just need a reality check every 2 months or so.

Re: 1/1 Jetta AMPS 339 +2.5 128 +3.5 168 +5 355 +9.75 436

one thing i noticed on punkin - at the beginning his nadir was really consistently at +6. then for whatever reason - i don't know if it had to do with him being acro or not - but his nadir slid later and spent a while being closer to +8. then it moved back to +6. nothing else changed, just that.

sometimes i think the best answer is because they are cats. everything i've read has said that cats are notoriously difficult to get diabetes regulated - far more than dogs or humans. i'm thinking this bouncing effect is probably why. their little livers are just so sensitive and reactive.

i'm sure it's discouraging to have her so reactive, especially when you can see the good numbers inbetween. :YMHUG:

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

WTH? This makes me sick to my stomach. I feel so bad knowing how awful Jetta feels. Just looking at her, DH and I know she feels like crud.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

:YMHUG: that sucks, jaclyn. i'm sorry.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

I'm so sorry, too. One thing I would do is drop the +9 feeding and I'd strongly consider dropping the feedings after her nadir. Feeding that late in the cycle can "slow" down the effects of the insulin and result in higher PSs.

I'm glad you are feeding more minimeals and front loading her cycle. Good job!! Now...you might have to tweak for Jetta. Maybe take the portions from the +6, +7, +9 and feed them earlier in the cycle. If she gets hungry later in the day, perhaps try just a little bit of freeze dried or boiled chicken breast and see how she reacts to that.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

in response to jaclyn's PM:

yikes! jetta has always had a penchant for these early dives, but ouch! that 500 hurts. front loading the first part of the cycle has already been brought up. i wonder if we have to take it one step further and come up with a plan specifically for jetta. what's the typical % of kcal from carbs in the foods you're feeding early in the cycle?

i'm asking because jetta doesn't appear to experience food spikes like many of our kitties. if we can produce a food spike by feeding a higher carb food than what she has been eating at shot time... maybe, just maybe it would prevent or slow that early dive.

honestly, i don't know if it work or not. call it an experiment. if it doesn't work... it's back to the drawing board.

one more question totally unrelated to front loading the cycle...
on 12/26 you noted a change in injection site on your spreadsheet (AM- New shot site- left side of chest/shoulder). have you continued to shoot in this same location? where were you shooting prior to the 26th? just thinking out loud... wondering if shot location could be at play.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

OH, JETTA...OUCH, LITTLE LADY!!!!

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

Happy New Year Jaclyn & Jetta!! I am interested in your question since Tarragon has been doing the same thing lately. The high bounces are terrible to see but increasing the dose is the only thing that has worked for us.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 (!!!!!)

Marjorie and Gracie said:

I'm so sorry, too. One thing I would do is drop the +9 feeding and I'd strongly consider dropping the feedings after her nadir. Feeding that late in the cycle can "slow" down the effects of the insulin and result in higher PSs.

I'm glad you are feeding more minimeals and front loading her cycle. Good job!! Now...you might have to tweak for Jetta. Maybe take the portions from the +6, +7, +9 and feed them earlier in the cycle. If she gets hungry later in the day, perhaps try just a little bit of freeze dried or boiled chicken breast and see how she reacts to that.

Click to expand...

Well, a few problems I see with not feeding her after her nadir- 1 it's early-generally around +4. And jetta is still underweight- just over 6 pounds-so in good conscience, I can't withhold food for hours at a time. Also, at each feeding - I mean EVERY feeding- Jetta gets as much food as she wants. If on the rare occiasion she cleans her dish, I refill it and she eats to her fill. Since she's underweight and can probably best be described as a nibbler, I'm not sure I can increase her food pre-nadir. Not saying I won't try- just saying it's not without it's challenges.

Jill & Alex said:

in response to jaclyn's PM:

yikes! jetta has always had a penchant for these early dives, but ouch! that 500 hurts. front loading the first part of the cycle has already been brought up. i wonder if we have to take it one step further and come up with a plan specifically for jetta. what's the typical % of kcal from carbs in the foods you're feeding early in the cycle?
i'm asking because jetta doesn't appear to experience food spikes like many of our kitties. if we can produce a food spike by feeding a higher carb food than what she has been eating at shot time... maybe, just maybe it would prevent or slow that early dive.

Click to expand...

You're exaactly right Jill. Jetta is NOT a food spiker at all. Most often she eats 4%. She's been on Wellness for a few months now, almost exclusively. Just in the past few weeks she's also been getting some FF (which she was on 100% just post FD dx) as I've been using that to chage the civvies from dry to canned and Jetta seems to enjoy eating socially (and wants what they have...) I'm all for experiments. Just tell me waht to do, we're all ears!

Jill & Alex said:

in response to jaclyn's PM:
one more question totally unrelated to front loading the cycle...
on 12/26 you noted a change in injection site on your spreadsheet (AM- New shot site- left side of chest/shoulder). have you continued to shoot in this same location? where were you shooting prior to the 26th? just thinking out loud... wondering if shot location could be at play.

Click to expand...

I only shot there once. It didn't go so well. Jetta jumped and ran away. I did get the shot in, but haven't tried it again. She does have scabs over her scruff so I've moved the shots further back over her shoulders, but only by an inch or so to move off the irritated areas. Jetta's going to the vet on 1/10 for a repeat U/S and I am going to have them shave a few new alternate sites then.

Thank you thank you thank you Jill and Marje for brainstorming with me.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349

You're exaactly right Jill. Jetta is NOT a food spiker at all. Most often she eats 4%. She's been on Wellness for a few months now, almost exclusively. Just in the past few weeks she's also been getting some FF (which she was on 100% just post FD dx) as I've been using that to chage the civvies from dry to canned and Jetta seems to enjoy eating socially (and wants what they have...) I'm all for experiments. Just tell me waht to do, we're all ears!

Click to expand...

most of the time you see everyone around here looking to feed foods with as little % kcal from carbs as possible. however, this doesn't work well for some cats (ECID). some cats do BETTER with foods with a little higher carb count. if jetta's norm is around 4% at shot time, what would happen if she was fed something in the 8% -10% carb range instead? it would still be considered "low carb"... just higher than what she's eating now.

i dunno. i think it's worth trying. you'd have to take a look at the food lists to find something she might like. i put some additional links to food lists (besides janet/binky's) in the new to the group sticky.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349

Hi Melissa- Happy new year to you too!

Jill-I have a can of Wellness Core 8% on the shelf- we just haven't tried it yet. She has eaten FF Turk and Giblets which is supposedly 7% with no effect so I probably need to look for at least a 10%. I'll go shopping tomorrow and see what I can find with that other food chart.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349

good. this *could* be a simple solution for this diving problem. i hope it works!

one more thing... i agree with you about letting her eat whenever she wants. underweight kitties need to gain their weight back. when you feed later in the cycle... you might want to revert back to foods with a lower % kcal from carbs.

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349

Wellness salmon/trout is 8% calories from carbs and chicken/lobster 11%. I use both those for steering numbers and they work really well.

THanks for reminding me that Jetta is underweight and needs to eat more. Totally understand.

On injection sites: is it possible to try the flank area or do you think she would also jump? By flank, I mean on the side just in front of her hips?

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349

Marjorie and Gracie said:

On injection sites: is it possible to try the flank area or do you think she would also jump? By flank, I mean on the side just in front of her hips?

Click to expand...

belly and flank shots *usually* produce an earlier onset...
scruff shots might be best (slower absorption).

Re: 1/1 Jetta PMPS 569 +2 349

Marjorie and Gracie said:

Wellness salmon/trout is 8% calories from carbs and chicken/lobster 11%. I use both those for steering numbers and they work really well.

THanks for reminding me that Jetta is underweight and needs to eat more. Totally understand.

On injection sites: is it possible to try the flank area or do you think she would also jump? By flank, I mean on the side just in front of her hips?

Click to expand...

I've not tried fishy flavors. I worry her IBD won't like fish- but I've never tried it. I think I'll put my fear aside ans give it a whirl. Who knows, she might love it!!

I've thought about the flank. I don't feel like I can ever get a big enough skin pinch there to give it a go. I've tried, just never had the guts to go for it. I'll definitely have the vet shave a spot there next week. I feel alot better about sinking the needle if I can see where it's going.

ETA- Just saw Jill's earlier onset post. Ay yi yi!!!!!!!! So much to consider.

belly and flank shots *usually* produce an earlier onset...
scruff shots might be best (slower absorption).

Click to expand...

prolly better to disregard my thoughts. I have just noticed with Gracie that we seem to be getting better absorption overall. Could be totally coincidental but there's a noticeable change in her BGs since I quit shooting in the scruff. BUT....Gracie is "well padded" and we're wondering if the insulin was not getting where it needed to with scruff shots.

You definitely don't want any earlier onset

So much going on here today...just wanted to stop in and say "hey", and hugs on that PMPS!!! Looks like she's clearing it nicely....not TOO quickly, but she's working on it. I hope you find the combination of "stuff" that works for Jetta.

It sounds like a lot of us had similar moments at midnight last night...it really was a special New Year's Eve, even for those of us who stayed home!

Lots of great information in Jetta's condo today. Hopefully you can figure out a way to stop those dives! Jetta sure likes to make a statement! :shock:

What a great way to ring in a new year with Jetta. Now I feel bad I didn't do the same for Leo :roll: I did let him know today though!

I hope 2012 brings you the best as well Jaclyn and Jetta!